Choking Dogs Blow 10-0 Lead To Indians
by Erik Hahmann on May 25, 2009 10:40 PM EDT
451 comments
There's nothing to say about this loss that you didn't see with your own two eyes. It's unacceptable, and frankly disgusting. This team is in serious trouble if this bullpen can't hold a 10-2 lead with six outs to go. I'm not going to make excuses for the loss, it was pitiful, but the umpiring sure didn't help.
Look at these strike zone plots. As always, the green dots are balls, red dots are strikes.
Francisco walk:
via brooksbaseball.dustinkikuchi.com
Carroll Walk:
via brooksbaseball.dustinkikuchi.com
Sizemore walk:
via brooksbaseball.dustinkikuchi.com
Martinez walk off:
via brooksbaseball.dustinkikuchi.com
That's five pitches in four consecutive at bats that were called balls that were clearly strikes. If even three of those pitches are called correctly...who knows what happens in those at bats.
This is the worst loss in Rays history. I'm numb. I feel like I just got punched in the stomach while simultaneously being kicked in the groin. I can only imagine how the players feel. Matt Garza is on the mound tomorrow. Hopefully he can make us all forget about tonight.
Here's a photo essay of tonight's game:
Start of game:
via i.usatoday.net
Que Bullpen...
via www.obit-mag.com
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Holy crap, I flipped the channel with us up 10-4 in the 8th to watch the Lakers lose....
And now I read this? I’m just glad I didn’t watch this epic fail. I don’t know what to say, just speechless. 6 freakin outs. wow
How did the offense get shut down by Jeremy Sowers?
Not that that is the reason they lost, but still… Jeremy Sowers.
Hello.
im sick of izzy as closer already
just go with the best guy and not the washed up vets (izzy, percy)
NFL- Vikings,Lions,Texans,Bills Adrian Peterson!
MLB-Rays,Marlins,Reds,Twins Evan Longoria
NBA-T-Wolves,Cavliiers,Warriors,Bobcats Lebron James!
NHL-Wild,Penguins Sidney Crosby!
NCAA-Gophers,Gators,Longh orns,ND Tim Tebow!
all in the order in which i root for 1st
You are the least picky sports fan on earth according to your sig
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
However, this isn't the worst loss in Rays history
That designation belongs to the 5th Game of the 2008 American League Championship Series
2009 Rays Baseball: God Damn It, Guys
and game-six of the ALCS...and game-five of the WS.
by walkoffwalk on May 25, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
but you didn't feel worse after losing either of those two games?
by walkoffwalk on May 25, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The WS game maybe
but how the fuck do blow a 7-0 lead with a WS birth on the line?
2009 Rays Baseball: God Damn It, Guys
I forgot all about that meltdown...
now, I want to forget about this one. Excuse me for a moment… I have to puke.
Visit the Rays Revolutionary Blog at http://raysrev.blogspot.com
that shit-eating grimace on isringhausen's face says it all. he's worthless and washed up and we don't need ANOTHER troy percival to fuck up games for us.
that said, this buttfuck was truly a team effort.
Did you honestly think he was a step up?
If he was he would’ve replaced Percy before the phantom arm injury.
Visit the Rays Revolutionary Blog at http://raysrev.blogspot.com
What were they really expecting from him?
It’s Jason fucking Isringhausen. Just another washed up reliever.
I expected a little more than
three walks and three runs with two outs in the bottom of the ninth. Ugh.
On a lighter note.
Apparently David Price was called up.
http://www.draysbay.com/2009/5/25/886654/david-price-called-up
Your honesty is refreshing
You can never, ever commit a mortal sin and blow this kind of game. It’s a real buzzkill. It’s more than that really.
Who do you go to in the medium and long term? McGee, Talbot, who can and would accept a conversion to a bullpen stud/relief ace for the LONG TERM?
Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!
Talbot, in my opinion
is better as a starter. We could trade him and get a bullpen piece back, however, although I don’t know I’d enjoy seeing that. I really like Talbot as a serviceable back of the rotation guy if anyone else starts fucking up.
by Navi's_Navy on May 25, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel like I want to throw up.
What a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, fore-fleshing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit this bullpen is. Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where’s the Tylenol?
The ineptitude of the offseason was just made extremely apparent tonight
I’ve always said that the FO didn’t do enough to sure up the back end of the bullpen this offseason. Looking at long term stats, it was obvious that our bullpen was going to regress.
We should have gone after JJ Putz. PTB has been a complete waste of $.
(I know Putz hasn’t been lighting the world on fire this season, but for 3 yrs / 13 mill we could have had a legit closer.)
Trading anything of value for Putz would have been stupid.
And, a “complete waste of $”? It’s been less than 50 games. People need to chill out.
by Erik Hahmann on May 25, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
isringhausen is more of a complete waste of $ than PTB, imo.
it’s obvious he’ll be just about the same pitcher percival was. he’s been on the decline for years.
Except that Izzy is making close to league minimum
And frankly, he probably won’t be around a few weeks from now.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
yes, but with a budget like this team has, even league minimum is a lot of money to invest in somebody who's washed up.
and i hope you’re right that he won’t be around too much longer. this guy is not the solution.
Trading anything of value for Putz would have been stupid
And please, calm down about PTB. It hasn’t even been 50 games.
by Erik Hahmann on May 25, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
From what I remember
Heilman and Endy Chavez were the only significant players the Mets gave up… We could have done easily given up more.
I just would have liked to see the closer’s role addressed this offseason. It wasn’t
Yes, we should overpay for a marginal closer.
They gave up Mike Carp, Aaron Heilman, Joe Smith,Jason Vargas, Endy Chavez, and other prospects. And the Indians gave up Franklin Gutierrez.
by R.J. Anderson on May 25, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
That sounds like they gave up a lot of scrubs for Putz.
by walkoffwalk on May 26, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't label any of those players scrubs.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Aaron Heilman is a scrub dude.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
The M's got Ronny Cedeno who I used to love out of him.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Jason Vargas isn't any good. Endy Chavez is decent glove but he's old and cannot hit his weight.
by walkoffwalk on May 26, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Everyone the Mets gave up was average to below-average
And other than Chavez and Smith, they had someone better lined up to play each of those positions.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
Putz has been hurt most of the season and isn't very good.
Also, he wasn’t a free agent, so I don’t know why you would throw that money figure out there.
by R.J. Anderson on May 25, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
He's a 3.9 FIP pitcher now.
Balfour’s is 3.35 right now.
by R.J. Anderson on May 25, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
One of the most dominant closers from 06-07
I don’t know the extent of how much his elbow problems are plaguing him this year, but I can almost guarantee the guy will post a better ERA than any of our “closers”
JJ Putz isn’t the centerpiece of my argument… it’s the fact that we didn’t address our closer’s role.
The Indians did, clearly that's what makes a good bullpen.
And I don’t really care about ERA, but I’m pretty sure Howell is going to better Putz.
by R.J. Anderson on May 25, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm being overly snarky here, so I apologize.
But everyone knows how much I hate the closer role.
by R.J. Anderson on May 25, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
i hate the closer's role too. and i think most people with any baseball sense realize it's borderline nonsensical.
yet clubs continue to buy into the hype that they “need” a closer. after a while, whether you need one or not becomes a moot point because you’ve already convinced yourself that you need one. this is the position in which most teams find themselves, IMO
ERA shouldn't be completely written off
FIP has its flaws as well.
I think both are suitable stats, equivalent in validity.
And the Indians aren’t a WS contender, so their closer’s role is meaningless.
"I think both are suitable stats, equivalent in validity."
Dude. No. Just no. I’m not going to hammer at you for saying ERA shouldn’t be completely written off, but FIP and tRA are about infinitely better than ERA at telling you anything.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Case in point:
Wandy Rodriguez gave up 6 runs today in 4 innings. His ERA for the game? 0.00
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying FIP is flawless. It ignores strand rate and batted ball type.
As Dave Cameron said:
As I said, both FIP and xFIP have flaws, especially when it comes to evaluating relief pitchers, but if you’re insistent on using one number to sum up a pitcher’s contribution to run prevention, those would be your best bet.
In this age of wonderful information, there’s just no reason to use ERA and WHIP for serious analysis of a pitcher’s ability. We have better tools at our disposal. We’re doing ourselves an injustice if we continue to lean on inferior information.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, yes it did.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Who the heck is this?
I kinda agree with you but would you go that far?? It’s easy to point fingers, but the way the front office has built this, they have to come up with an internal solution to this. And that’s the hard part. Someone has to step up inside the org, and it may be that one of the prized arms has to be converted.
Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!
Worst Loss?
Could someone from Elias or wherever check if a reining World Series team has ever in the history of the great game of baseball, blown a ten run lead to a last place team? It may not just be the Rays worst loss, but the worst loss in the history of baseball! Ouch!
No. It's really not.
The M’s blew a 12 run lead during their amazing 2001 season. To the Indians as well.
by R.J. Anderson on May 25, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks, R.J.
Now I can sleep this one off.
Also.
The Cleveland Indians trailed the Seattle Mariners 8-1 going into the bottom of the 9th in a 2001 game, then scored 8 runs to win 9-8. This was also the same year Cleveland overcame a 14-2 deficit in the 7th inning against Seattle to win 15-14 in extra innings
by R.J. Anderson on May 25, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I blame the pitchers for this one, but BJ Upton is worthless right now. How many times did he end an inning with runners on? Maybe he really isn't all that good.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha, I love how the first reaction is to blame the black guy.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I blame management/ownership for not addressing glaring problems over the winter—they didn’t address RF, didn’t attempt to get a closer or a right handed power hitter—oh yeah, forgot Burrell with his 1 homer. Starting pitching is average and relief far below average and no closer..That means we have to score 6 or more runs a game (10 tonight wasn’t enough) and we sure aren’t seeing Upton contributing much, except for ensuring we stay atop the league in strikeouts..What a mess….
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
But the M's did not go to the series in 2000
Probably worst FAIL of defending AL champs in history.
by rays_world_champs on May 26, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions
They won 116 games.
That’s more impressive than us winning the ALCS by far.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions
When did the Mariners win the AL?
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions
But the M’s did not go to the series in 2000
Probably worst FAIL of defending AL champs in history.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Izzy obviously didn't have it
Why the hell didn’t Madden take him out? I blame this loss squarely on the coaches shoulders. MORONIC.
Yeah, stupid Maddon, shrinking the strike zone.
by R.J. Anderson on May 25, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
umpires will be umpires, but can Maddon see the Pitch f/x charts while the game is happening? no
leaving Izzy in there after he walks three in a row with the game on the line, with howell still in the pen is just a iffy decision at best, whether or not in retrospect the umpire blew several calls. I don’t think you can completely blame Maddon (after all, Izzy is the one who gave up the hits and walks), but he can’t get off scott free for this either
by mslowins on May 25, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There you can see 4 absolute strikes...
As well as a bunch of really borderline pitches called balls. Everyone shares some of the blame here, but the home plate umpire has to share a huge deal of that as well. That’s bullshit.
The jewish one was very clever
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
FYI I stole this for facebook
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
In return:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um_6_bvmp2M
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Freidman, you had all off season to strengthen this bullpen,
but you decided to pull a “Glazerhouse” and go cheap. Now you have to make a drastic change (trade) & pay a guy more than he’s worth and probably lose a player. IT NEVER PAYS TO GO CHEAP!
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:20 AM EDT reply actions
...Andrew was playing the hand he was dealt
by Erik Hahmann on May 26, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Anyone that knows baseball knows that Madden is the worst game manager since Don Zimmer(maybe even Bobby Cox).
This team has no leaders and a manager that is too “cool” for his glasses. Turn off ESPN boys and quit believing the national media’s kool-aid, staying on top is going to be a helluva lot harder than getting there. Hey Friedman, this a business, it ain’t family!
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Continue this discussion at TampaBay.com
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually this discussion was first reported at tbo.com.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
RJ Price is going to be a major league pitcher for a long time but right now I saw signs he was shaky and not finishing off his pithes.
The 5 BB’s by David Price was Kazmir like but got lucky given up 2 runs. This is why he should be in AAA longer. Wade Davis has the edge right now and should be in the starting rotation. Thayer and Choate should be sent down after the game. Balfour is on short leash. Where is Randy Choate come from? YUK
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
In my day, Bob Feller finished off all his pithes.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
The best part is how you actually posted there
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Edgar,
There’s no way Price should be sent down. Were you watching? His pitch count was high, but he was lights-out with his fastball. This guy is a huge improvement as our number 2 starter over shell-shocked Kazmir.
The problem was the bullpen. You can’t walk 5 guys in the 9th inning. There’s no excuse for the lame bullpen. That’s what needs improving.
Price should be in the big leagues for the rest of his career. He deserves it. I would like to see some roster changes in the bullpen.
Posted by: RJ | May 25, 2009 at 10:10 PM
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
....Pena? Hinske?
Cheap works exceptionally well, but there’s just always more risk. Things aren’t working out now with any of the relievers they added to the team this off-season, which is just exceedingly bad luck.
"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige
by Steve Slowinski on May 26, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I might have just missed the sarcasm there.
"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige
by Steve Slowinski on May 26, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Yup, definitely did.
"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige
by Steve Slowinski on May 26, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Rays' budget isn't infinite
- The strength of the team was the starting rotation that had 3 guys who regularly went deep into games (Shields, Garza, Sonny) – AKA bullpen is projected to get fewer innings
- The Rays have arms in the minors to withstand regression
- Upgrading the DH spot was more important than getting some shiny expensive closer
Sometimes the best laid plans don’t necessarily work out. That’s part of the game.
"And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic..."
After this game, Dale Thayer,Randy Choate, and David Price back to AAA. Price needs some polishing up and he is relying on his 99 MPH fastball. This was a flashback of the 2007 Devil Rays. No more AAA Durham Bulls in late situations. Incredible. Maddon should get some heat for this game for playing too relax. Bring up Wade Davis; he is more MLB ready than Price right now. This is embarrasing.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:28 AM EDT reply actions
Yeah, damn Randy Choate and his... getting a groundball to the SS
We will have none of that here!
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on May 26, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
And Wade Davis has a 30-23 K-BB rate
He isn’t ready.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on May 26, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Kinda makes you wonder what their farm system actually is.
Whoever comes up doesn’t show much at all, except Price. Price is a proven commodity and by years end, will be the best or second best pitcher on the squad. Wade Davis?? What has he ever done at this level for people to think he is the answer? This team is what it is, average, average, average and that doesn’t include the bullpen, which is terrible; no closer, no nada—take away Howell and Cormier (so far) and what is there?? Balfour should be gone tomorrow morning, Choate, Thayer, Nelson and even Wheeler have been terrible and unreliable.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
You're the one who seems to think he's the answer.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on May 26, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Stubborn, stubborn, stubborn..
I know he wanted to rest JP, but really after the error, Howell closes that game out, or after the home run, Howell closes that game out, or after the 4 walks in arow, Howell gets Martinez out, but Maddon just stood there and basically told all the fans he wasn’t going to pitch JP perios even if it meant losing thegame after a 10-2 lead..Understand it, but you have to change plans when the bullpen blows it, an MR. Stubborn refused once again. Feels good to know that 3 year deal is final, and now he can continue to be stubborn at will…The team blew this game tonight, no doubt, but really Joe, when it keeps getting closer and closer, you have to use JP for one out, that simply isn’t going to “RUIN” his arm….A season changing loss possibly, devastating as Broadcaster Dwayne Staats stated after the game..back under .500 again…
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
update on standings
red sox lead in east newyork 1.0 toronto 1.5 tampa bay 4.5 baltimore 8.0 after the rays get swept from the tribe rays will be back to where they are comfortable in the basement i will be down in a few to toss you your pillow and blanket
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
and nice way to treat our league championship with suck disgrace by not supporting your team are you guys that broke to not afford 15 dollars to go to a rays game? geez prob so cheap if they gave tickets still wouldnt sell out
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Get a job Loser
You obviously have too much time on your hands. Between the masturbation marathon and making meth in your mom’s basement I’d think you’d have a full day. Guess not.
I wouldn't call it a marathon. I need at least 4 hours between jerks to "reload"
Also my penis has extra sensitive skin, so that becomes a problem at some point.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Also, my mom's trailer doesn't have a basement, so????????????????
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, you ask me to get a job, but making meth is my job.
Do you know anyone that makes Meth as a hobby? I don’t. It’s dangerous work, and I certainly wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t getting paid.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I love it because when its a argument between your pretty boy rays and the RED SOX NATION things will get ugly.
1.rays have only 1 winning season now all of a sudden you think the rays have enough credit compared to the red sox 7 championships. 2 . red sox championships 7 rays none. red sox american league championships 11 rays 1. red sox east championships 6 rays 1. redsox wild card births 6 rays none red sox expansion 1901 . first title 1903 2 yrs . red sox in the bottom from 1901 – 2009 none rays 10 yrs 1998-2007 so when you win more titles than us red sox and the leagues most by the yankees 26 then come open your mouths cause being a bad boy in baseball is bad azz and the NATION loves it compared to all you preppy wanna be white collar fans . and for the record the red sox has sold out every game since 1901 same as the yanks so when you all start selling out every game then i will believe you care about your team you lil (*)itches
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I already posted like 3 of his.
The Aki-out for season thread is really the best
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
i know what mandrew is saying what a bunch of band wagon jumping fans you all are come on the rays been in tampa since 98 there is no tradition in tampa fl the longest tenured team there is your buccos and still they are considered young to the nfl so maybe if you had a sports team in the area that goes back to the 1900s then open your sorry mouths 11 years did it take you all tampa idiots to learn the rules of baseball? to learn the rules of hockey? to learn the rules of football? oh wait a 2 year old can learn football thats what all tampa people are …2 yr olds lol tradition in tampa thats funny go phillies
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Red Sox Douchebag
Get your info and grammar straight because it only makes you look more stupid than that bandwagon “B” you have hanging off your clothing. It took you 85 years to win a championship. I’ll call you in 75 if the Rays aren’t back again. But that’s what I expect from typical illegitimate Red Sock ASSHOLES. They say shit rolls downhill, which is why so many of you f*ckwad red sux fans are in Florida. If Boston is so great, go home. We don’t want you and no one else does either. By the way, Rays still own you from last year and so far this year too. Now get back to your mom’s basement and go pollute your own team’s page and stay off the Rays page Asswipe. We don’t need you bringing us down.
by Bamaboy96 on May 26, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have to break character here for a second. I'm marveling at this poorly constructed mess of a paragraph...
…that begins by criticizing someone else’s grammar.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
lmao
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
HA HA ! poor little ak-i no-ri- i wa mamma is out! lol not going to miss him cause your whole team sucks lol poor marc posting his get well wishes RED SOX NATION ! GO RED SOX oh by the way you guys have a big 4 game series starting today good luck tampa bay gays!
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
It should never have gotten that far....
Izzy isn’t ready for the pressure yet, we got squeezed all game, but when Hickey comes out to specifically tell Balfour to not walk anyone and give them a shot, and he walks the next batter on 4 pitches, that just can’t happen. I’d rather see 97mph heat down the pipe then trying to nibble the corners when we havent been awarded corners all game. Make them win the game, don’t hand it to them. Pitiful
holy shit we lost?
i just got done telling my girlfriend we won 10-2. I left in the 7th. I ACTUALLY THOUGHT YOU WERE PLAYING A JOKE WITH THE TOP STORY
With assists from the Heater.
Yes people who think this way actually exist and operate just like you and I. Tampabay.com, check it out!
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
You're exposing him to the mouthbreathers?!
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
No, I'm mocking that Times employee who spammed here.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I want to try out for the bullpen job please ? Who do I need to call ? I think I'm pretty good ! I just throw one f#$%^&* pitch ! Can somebody get me an agent ? I want to try out for the bullpen closer role !
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Ah. Ok.
I remember that.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Only because it's amusing how the Times acts like this site is hell on Earth, but someone decides they want all of us at The Heater.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I've never even heard them mention this place.
Doesn’t matter, the Times is and will always be Bucs first.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, they won't mention it.
They just make snarky remarks about how we’re self-appointed keyboard experts. Then they ask Steve Phillips for his advice.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Pots meet kettles.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
By the way.
Big Nyquil t-shirts, doable?
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Pretty sure Nyquil is a registered trademark.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I bet Niequill isn't
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Gather round, kids. Settle down now. And no hitting. I’m going to tell you a story about the way that Coach Joe Maddon’s historical record of purblind, evil wheelings and dealings is clearer than the muddled pronouncements of his allies. There are a number of reasons Coach Maddon isn’t telling us as to why he wants to suppress all news that portrays him in a bad light. In this letter, I will expose those reasons one-by-one, on the principle that if his sound bites were intended as a joke, he forgot to include the punchline.
No one likes being attacked by the worst classes of pushy junkies there are. Even worse, Coach Maddon exploits our fear of those attacks—which he claims will evolve by the next full moon into biological, chemical, or nuclear attacks—as a pretext to force me to fall into the traps set for me by his subordinates. If you think that’s scary, then you should remember that Coach Maddon ought to unstop his ears and uncover his eyes. Only then will he hear that to which he has been too long heedless. Only then will Coach Maddon see that throughout history, there has been a clash between those who wish to upbraid him for being so lascivious and those who wish to make things worse. Naturally, Coach Maddon belongs to the latter category.
You are, I’m sure, well aware that Coach Maddon’s secret agents must be exposed and neutralized wherever they lurk. But did you know that Coach Maddon runs like a scared rabbit whenever his effusions are challenged by someone with courage, conviction, and a love of Truth? It’s not just the lunatic fringe that’s in his corner; a number of previously respectable people have recently begun backing Coach Maddon.
Coach Maddon plans to reduce religion to a consumer item in a spiritual supermarket. The result will be an amalgam of bitter statism and nugatory nihilism, if such a monster can be imagined. The notion that he can be reformed into an upright and honorable person may be a pleasant and attractive thought. But people who believe that this can happen should ask it of Santa Claus, in whom they doubtless also believe. In any case, I must ask that his cat’s-paws fight scurrility and slander. I know they’ll never do that so here’s an alternate proposal: They should, at the very least, back off and quit trying to control your bank account, your employment, your personal safety, and your mind.
Please pardon this brief divagation, but Coach Maddon shouldn’t boss others around. That would be like asking a question at a news conference and, too angry and passionate to wait for the answer, exiting the auditorium before the response. Both of those actions make me the target of a constant, consistent, systematic, sustained campaign of attacks. He wants us to think of him as a do-gooder. Keep in mind, though, that Coach Maddon wants to “do good” with other people’s money and often with other people’s lives. If he really wanted to be a do-gooder, he could start by admitting that he wants to get me thrown in jail. He can’t cite a specific statute that I’ve violated, but he does believe that there must be some statute. This tells me that Coach Maddon’s compeers think that Coach Maddon’s diatribes are not worth getting outraged about. This is precisely the non-equation that Coach Maddon is trying to patch together. What he’s missing, as usual, is that his announcements do not represent progress. They represent insanity masquerading as progress. Finally, any one of the points I made in this letter could be turned into a complete research paper, but the conclusion of each would be the same: Coach Joe Maddon hopes to finance a propaganda of intensive deception that induces sane and sober people to uproot our very heritage and pave the way for his own insolent value system.
www.raysprospects.com
www.joemaddonsucks.com?
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
http://www.pakin.org/complaint/
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on May 26, 2009 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
lol
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
W/E I JUST HOPE ANDREW FREEMAN HAS SOME WHITEOUT
SO HE CAN ERASE MERLOT JOE MADDENS SGINATURE ON HIS NEW CONTRACT
loosers? wow let me open up another page and go to mlb.com to see the standings hold on….oh so sorry back to 4 games under… ok let me give all you 11 year baseball rookies a positive to your team…The last time a team lost a World Series then won it all the next season? That was 1989. thats a long time ago . as far as the rays? just like they called you all last season (the miracle team) yes you are a little itsy bitsy miracle and yes when i travel from “baston” as rayon up there calls it . i will be sitting next to you all and drinking a nice cold brewskey only to pour it all over your miserable heads and yes i wont forget to pour some on your kids heads also thank you all good night….BOSTON NATION!
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions
OH AND ONE MORE THING YOU SHOULD BE LUCKY TO HAVE A SKIPPER AS SMART AS JOE MADDON CAUSE HE IS GETTING PAID TO CLEAN UP THE POOP YOUR PAST CRAPPY TEAMS LEFT ITS A SHAME THAT EVERY OWNER IN YOUR PATHETIC CITY WONT SPEND MONEY CAUSE THEY ARE PERPS MADDON WILL TAKE WHAT HE DID IN TAMPA (WORLD SERIES) THEN LEAVE YOUR CRAPPY CITY AND FORGET ABOUT YOU LOOSERS I WOULD BE VERY SURPRISED IF ATLEAST ONE OF YOU CRAPPY PEOPLE PICK THE ROSTER OF YOUR PAST DEVIL RAY TEAMS AND WRITE THEM HERE WITH OUT SEARCHING ONLINE AND THAT WILL SHOW YOU HOW PATHETIC BAND WAGON JUMPING HOBOS YOU ALL ARE . SEE ONLY CITIES LIKE BOSTON AND NEW YORK AND THE REST OF MLB BUT YOU LOOSERS WILL LAST IN THIS LEAGUE BECAUSE WE SPEND MONEY IN OUR CITIES
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions
let this be a lesson learned. don't ever try to turn a double play against my marlins. ya'll are a bunch of losers and will never be a championship team. all day. rick becker over and out
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Stay classy, Miami.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
How about
rick becker over and out
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Joe Maddon, please find a relief pitcherone getting someone out and throwing strikes and ride them. The Rays and YOU have lost at least 4-5 games due to micoro-managing relief pitchers.
Yes, the odds are in your favor, if the relief pitcher is throwing historical relavent pitches. This season NO ONE has even come close.
You pull someone after 1-2-3 batters faced and then you run out of pitchers that can throw strikes (blew a 10-0 lead tonight).
You and COach Hickey need to get a new staff or change your micro-management! Don;t even get me started on Kazmir’s two wasted years with bad mehanics. You guys (coaches) spend to much time drinking and playing golf on the road. Watch the pitchers and coach and quit playing micro-manager.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:44 AM EDT reply actions
"Yes, the odds are in your favor, if the relief pitcher is throwing historical relavent pitches."
The fuck?
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's pretty great
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions
That actually makes sense
Using historical data to project the future when the pitcher has significantly declined or has a different skillset is shaky at best.
BTW, this is the best one:
Well…the good news is, we didn’t use JP Howell in three straight games. Plus Bartlett got the night off. Not a total loss.
Posted by: Go Rays! | May 25, 2009 at 10:05 PM
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:45 AM EDT reply actions
I like this one.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on May 26, 2009 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
AHAHAHAHHAHA
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:47 AM EDT reply actions
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I think we’re going to need a “Point After” post
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Regarding 5 year old talking about WWII
American ideology at work, believing the war was fought to liberate Jewish people, or the Germans fought solely to murder Jews. How about…German people bankrupt after WWI, perhaps unfairly responsible to pay back entire war debt. So impoverished, bitter, hungry German soldiers like Hitler plot their revenge and conspire to be a world power again with a fierce military and attempt to cleanse Germany of undesirables, (Jews, gypsies, retarded, homosexuals) before conquering Europe.
Swav or Die.
He's never hit major league pitching therefore he is irrelevant.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
DFA him
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
After tonight, there's only 1 option
We trade for Swisher
for the pen maybe
NFL- Vikings,Lions,Texans,Bills Adrian Peterson!
MLB-Rays,Marlins,Reds,Twins Evan Longoria
NBA-T-Wolves,Cavliiers,Warriors,Bobcats Lebron James!
NHL-Wild,Penguins Sidney Crosby!
NCAA-Gophers,Gators,Longh orns,ND Tim Tebow!
all in the order in which i root for 1st
Brignac?
Ugh – one less error and this nightmare never happened.
by rays_world_champs on May 26, 2009 12:57 AM EDT reply actions
Two less runs driven in and it still does.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Wrong
He makes that throw and we get at least one out. The game actually might have been over if we could have turned two.
Worst case there is two outs when Balfour comes in. He got the first guy he faced out.
by rays_world_champs on May 26, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Walks were flowing for both sides
And where was JP?
by rays_world_champs on May 26, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
You nor I have no idea what would've happened if Brignac doesn't make an error.
Speculating on this is pointless. It’s like saying, what if J.P. comes in. We probably win.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Ture enough
I just think Brignac is over rated.
by rays_world_champs on May 26, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh man that is just wrong
I should not be laughing. But I am.
This is absolutely awful timing for something like this.
I’ve been working on a reload for 2010 post for a few days now. I can’t wait to post it and have people accuse me of giving up.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't come across that way.
Since I’m saying move the excess parts to create room for some 2010 additions, but you know how some people are.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Sickening
The umpires in this league need to be held accountable when their K zones deviate so drastically
just for the record
comparing the plots of the rays walks in the ninth to those above, there isn’t a comparable called strike on the indians charts (compared to the missed calls that hurt the Rays). Certainly bad umpiring, but if the Indians had thrown any pitches in the same area, or the Rays had taken one of those pitches, they could easily have not gotten the call.
I just think blaming the umpires is an easy way out
I wasnt referring to your comment
I meant to express my opinion that umpires are only human to DRays07
OT, but i cant wait until jennings and beckham are ready
NFL- Vikings,Lions,Texans,Bills Adrian Peterson!
MLB-Rays,Marlins,Reds,Twins Evan Longoria
NBA-T-Wolves,Cavliiers,Warriors,Bobcats Lebron James!
NHL-Wild,Penguins Sidney Crosby!
NCAA-Gophers,Gators,Longh orns,ND Tim Tebow!
all in the order in which i root for 1st
Crawford/Upton/Jennings = Yes sir
Dunno if that’d happen with Joyce in the mix.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on May 26, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
i have a feeling jennings will be ready by mid 2010
NFL- Vikings,Lions,Texans,Bills Adrian Peterson!
MLB-Rays,Marlins,Reds,Twins Evan Longoria
NBA-T-Wolves,Cavliiers,Warriors,Bobcats Lebron James!
NHL-Wild,Penguins Sidney Crosby!
NCAA-Gophers,Gators,Longh orns,ND Tim Tebow!
all in the order in which i root for 1st
After tonight
I’m beginning to doubt CC will be on this team in August.
by rays_world_champs on May 26, 2009 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Point After post up
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:01 AM EDT reply actions
He did his best Kaz impression
100 pitches for 10 outs.
Izzy out Percy’d himself.
by rays_world_champs on May 26, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Guys watch out
BigDogwdae Say good night now a-hole. take your know it all ass back to blogsphere and stay there. I must have the lulz
Swav or Die.
Now he's never going to accept my follow request
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
What did you do to get that response
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions
He reads our GDTs?
HEY BIG DAWG, HOLLA ATCHA BOY
Accept my Tweet request
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
At what point are we thankful that the homoerotic stuff ended in the GDTs?
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Never?
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
This is why he doesn't accept your tweets.
That or the racial innuendo.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Dude, I think TBD (The Big Dog) can appreciate Mapplethorpe without sexualizing it like you people do.
Art is art.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Since he wants him to accept his twitter request.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions
It's short for Steve "The Big Dog Sky Vodka 19th Hole" Duemig
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions
That stuff ended?!
Guess I’ll have to return all that leather….
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm more interested in what the Tweets said now.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I wonder what he'll say about your postings of his tweets too...
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Also, you're a total ass for telling him "it was for the lulz".
I find it hilarious and I expect no less.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
He's getting free advertising from it.
The guy isn’t stupid. He knows what he’s doing on air and off. If he reads this place then obviously he tries understand the Rays a bit better.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I know.
But you’ve essentially done the same thing as SRQ. He just burned the bridge.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions
If you fucks keep me from getting to follow S"TBD19HSV"D on the tweets I'm going to be pissed off
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Why the fuck don't John Romano or Gary Shelton have twitter accounts?
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I can only go so long between HILARIOUS one-liners and outdated cultural references
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Very funny
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions
They have the Heater.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait, Duemig is a 4-chaner?
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
SRQ I would imagine
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Jesus.
Beginning as a plural variant of lol, Lulz was originally an exclamation but is now often used as a noun meaning interesting or funny internet content.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Defining stuff makes it less lulz.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on May 26, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Price isn't going anywhere
Kaz is on the DL for the forseeable future and Davis isn’t any more ready. Cleveland has a well above average offense and are a very patient team. Rest assured, Price isn’t going to go 3.1 IP every outing.
Hello.
Oh look, more censorship
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:34 AM EDT reply actions
I know, right?
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't want that pic posted while I sleep.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand the GDT only pollicies
Or at least I used to…
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions
The Cowbell you could have been ringing, if you were a hardcore Rays fan.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:35 AM EDT reply actions
Note: There should have been a picture there.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
It wasn't that good. You can see it on the twitter
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I feel better now
The Blue Jays’ bullpen has the third-best ERA in the majors at 3.37, but they didn’t do the job Sunday. With the score tied 2-2 going into the bottom of the seventh inning, Shawn Camp and Jason Frasor combined to surrender seven runs on five hits and two walks in the inning as the Braves walked away with a 10-2 victory and a three-game sweep of the Jays, who’ve now lost six straight.
It’s nice to know that on a night the bullpen collapses, one from a past collapse fails as well.
2009 Rays Baseball: God Damn It, Guys
why haven't the blue jays figured out that shawn camp is terrible?
seriously, DFA him or something. oops, i don’t want to be giving away any tips.
He's usually alright
His biggest problem in 2007 was that the defense was god awful. He needs a decent defense behind him to be any good.
2009 Rays Baseball: God Damn It, Guys
He's not horrible at all.
If they DFA him, I would definitely hope the Rays take a claim.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I know it was his first start this year...and Angel Hernandez has a microscopic K-zone...
…but it is unacceptable to come in and get only 10 outs. It’s not like Price was getting smacked around. He was trying to strike out every fucking batter. LET THE BALL BE PUT IN PLAY. It works for Sonny (sometimes).
It’s great that he can throw 99 mph, but if you’re going to a full count on almost every batter that means our bullpen is going to have a long night.
I should not care this much about a baseball team, but words cannot properly articulate how enraging it was to watch this game be lost. It was an out of body experience.
by Lurch's Lobbyists on May 26, 2009 2:28 AM EDT reply actions
Relax.
Watch a good movie. Get some sleep. The sun will come up tomorrow. In the end it’s just a game.
Swav or Die.
Yeah, life goes on
I just had to vent here…my girlfriend only listens for a little bit before starting the mockery. But yes, you make some good points that will enable me not to die of a stroke by age 30.
by Lurch's Lobbyists on May 26, 2009 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand the need to vent.
It’s part of being a fan. Just don’t let it take over the rest of your day/life. The best part about baseball though is there is another game tomorrow and hopefully this never happens again.
Swav or Die.
the last sentence describes it quite perfectly, yes.
and you’re right about this full count nonsense, but i really think it’s the ethos of MLB today. if you’ve got a batter in an 0-2 hole, it’s perfectly acceptable to throw one in the dirt or way up by his face. (of course, no one EVER swings on an 0-2 count, because why would they?) then, still shooting for the strikeout, the pitcher will throw one just shy of the zone but definitely not IN the zone. so now we’re 2-2 and assuming no foul balls, that’s 4 pitches for this batter alone. then if you absolutely MUST have the strikeout, you throw a slider into the dirt, which of course the batter leaves alone. now you’re 3-2 and looking like a stooge. pitches are wasted.
these throwaway pitches are absurd, yet pitchers around MLB seem to want to throw them. this is why pitch counts go up. i’m not a fan.
Can't really blame the umps
That is just ridiculous. Madden’s mission didn’t want to use JP. That is his fault. Some of the blame has to fall on the manager. Of course Maddon didn’t pitch like a little leaguer either so he can’t have all the blame. Price, Thayer, Balfour, and Izzy all deserve the bulk of the blame in order of least blame to most blame.
It is hard to blame the offense. Yes BJ sucks offensively now, but he still gets on occasionally. He isn’t the worst with the stick. Either way we put up 10 and have one of the best offenses in the league.
Our problem is pitching. The entire staff minus a few guys is garbage. Who is to blame for that?
I say Maddon and Hickey. Maddon for his poor usage and Hickey because it seems every pitcher gets worse with him. Has anyone else noticed that? Every pitcher except JP and Garza has declined since Hickey got his paws on them. I hate blaming the pitching coach, but damn that is a bad track record. I don’t really fault Friedman.
And what about last year when the pitching staff was awesome?
Na, Hickey gets no credit for that. Let’s just focus on the negative.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on May 26, 2009 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions
You need to be a tad bit more specific
Which players got better after being exposed to Hickey? Not Balfour (he was lights out in the minors). Not Bradford. Not Shields. Not Sonnanstine. I guess you could argue Jackson.
So please tell me which players improved after their Hickey exposure? It sounds like you want to give him credit for not screwing guys up. Only two players have gotten better. A small bit have stayed the same (such as Shields). The rest of the players have gotten worse.
And the bulk of the getting worse isn’t simple mean reversion. It is a literal decline in skills. Correlation doesn’t mean causation, but it is definitely something Friedman should really dig into.
I take Jackson back
4.9 FIP then 4.88 with Hickey. Oh he is posting a 3.46 this year.
Hammel: 5.05 and 5.25 last year with Hickey, now 4.33 this year
Kazmir: 3.45 then 4.37 last year, 5.67 this year
Sonnanstine: 4.26 then 3.91 last year, 4.71 this year
How exactly are you supposed to judge the performance of a positional coach?
If you actually read what I wrote I definitely said that correlation doesn’t imply causation. However if it doesn’t concern you that nearly every one of our pitchers loses skill and posts worse numbers (except for two) with Hickey while the two pitchers on a squad last year sucked with Hickey are suddenly far better than what they ever were without Hickey? I dont have time to study the guys that left after 2007 and see how they’ve performed post Hickey. I know for sure Camp posted a far better FIP post Hickey than with Hickey.
Perhaps this is all a coincidence. I’d love to know how you would judge position coaches though because apparently the deviation from historical norms isn’t a good way to do it.
It just does concern me than Jackson would have the best FIP on our team (starters) by far and Hammel has a better FIP than Shields, Kazmir, Neimann, and Sonnanstine. I think we made the right moves, but it makes me wonder why our guys are getting worse while players leaving our team suddenly get better. Pure random chance?
One, I think you are putting way too much emphasis on position coaches.
Go read Moneyball, or look up shit about Rick Peterson. Rick Peterson, a widely respected pitching coach, thought he could fix Victor Zambrano’s mechanical problems. He did not, and Zambrano kept breaking and sucking. Were you calling for Henderson’s head earlier this year when our bats suck? Well, take a look now. We have probably the best offense in the AL. Positional coaches have the very minimum of influence on performance.
Two, there are a dozen other possible reasons for the pitching problems beside Jim Hickey. Balfour’s career is noted for injuries and control problems. Throw those in with the general volatility of bull pens and it’s not a mystery why he might be struggling. As for Edwin Jackson, if his consistency is real, then you can’t blame that on Hickey. Jackson has a completely new slider, one that he learned from another pitcher, not a coach.
And really? You think Hammel’s going to end the year with a higher FIP than the rest of our starters?
My analysis wasn’t based upon a comparison of prior players with current players. It was an analysis with players against themselves. How their FIP has changed with or without Hickey.
I’m not sure what your point is about Peterson. Okay so he tried to make Zambrano better? You are bashing him for trying? Lets actually take a peak at the numbers
By FIP
2003 Devil Rays 5.09
2004 DRays, Mets 5.00
2005 Mets 4.27
It actually went down. Zambrano is a bad example since he actually does really suck now. Maybe that is Petersons fault? But the point is he sucked prior to going to the Mets. Whatever the Mets did didn’t make him suck worse than what he was with us (as shown his FIP actually declined).
Okay I get it. It doesn’t concern you that pitchers see their FIP rise with Hickey and decline once they get a new pitching coach. Maybe once I’m out of work for the day I’ll dig a bit deeper. The only possible issue is sample size, but it certainly looks statistically significant.
I thought my point is pretty clear. Rick Peterson is a consider a very good pitching coach.
He failed, though. Leo Mazzone… awesome pitching coach right? Sure had a huge effect on those Baltimore Orioles! Oh, wait, he didn’t. Blaming Hickey for our performances is ridiculous.
Shawn Camp. Groundball pitcher. Played behind one of the worst defenses in the majors in 2007. Has a bad year. Plays behind one of the best defenses in the majors in 2008. Has a good year…. JIM HICKEY’S FAULT.
I could do this all day. James Shields struggles? CC Sabathia had a 7.08 ERA last year at this time.
I think the problem with the pitching coaches you mentioned and those specific jobs were unrealistic expectations. Teams expected those coaches to dramatically turn their fortunes around. That just isn’t realistic. I do think pitching coaches are important. Their job is to first and foremost do not allow for the degradation of the skills of a pitcher. I agree that it is difficult to “improve” a pitcher. At the major league level refining or creating new skills is a bit tough to do. However keeping a pitcher at his historical norms is part of his job. To do this he has to keep their mechanics in line as well as work on the mental part.
And you brought up sample size. Well with one specific pitcher there is obviously a sample size issue. However when we talk about all of the pitchers in relation to Hickey the sample is most likely large enough. So while we aren’t ready to finalize the comparison between 2008 Ejax to 2009 Ejax, or 2008 Shields to 2009 Shields we almost certainly have enough data to compare pitchers performance without Hickey to pitchers performance with Hickey. And we most definitely would have enough data if we took his team with the Astros in consideration also.
Also doesn’t FIP take away defense? So it shouldn’t matter that Camp played with a crappy defense one year and a good one the next year in regards to his FIP.
And again just to make it clear. I’m not saying Jackson or Hammel is better than say Shields. It is not a comparison amongst players. It is how the population of players that have played under Hickey performed under his eye and how they performed away from Hickey.
FIP tends to favor guys who strikeout regularly.
Anytime you’re a groundball pitcher with a defense bad enough to give you a 422 BABIP, you’re going to look terrible.
Does anyone really disagree
That Hickey deserved little credit for the success of the team? 1. I don’t think pitching coaches generally make a big difference and 2. Hickey clearly is no magic worker. I am all for a new pitching coach next year personally. This is not to say that I blaming him for everything, but I think its worth the risk of switching it up.
by RaysTheRoof on May 26, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
i think pitching coaches could have a big effect on pitchers. i don't think hitting coaches have any effect, though
by walkoffwalk on May 26, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it's impossible, unless without very serious evidence, to determine whether or not a pitching coach is effective or not.
That are so many things at play here, you can’t isolate it down to one person’s (possible) ineffectiveness.
Correlation does not always equate causality.
Which is why you need a good sample size
I’d love to see someone do a analysis on players performance with or without Hickey. If there is statistical evidence players perform worse with Hickey than without then wouldn’t that be good to know? Isn’t that what this FO is all about? Of course I’m not rooting for that conclusion, but whats the harm of doing the analysis?
No problem
It is jut something I’d like to see. If I wasn’t too busy pseudo studying for CFA L2 and acting like I’m working at work then I’d do it. There just has to be some sort of quantitative way to judge the performance of position coaches.
I like how you brought up the Neimann fastball thing. Something like that would cause Neimann to perform worse here and then better under a different pitching coach the preached the proper pitch selection.
PLEASE STOP SAYING
Edwin jackson learned his slider from Galaraga. There is no evidence of this. I asked RJ and he said it was just his hypothesis. For all we know it was the pitching coach working on his mechanics.
by RaysTheRoof on May 26, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Beat writer hasn't replied.
So for now, it’s unproven. Either way, he learned it from Knapp or someone there.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Hickey should know every pitch on the face of the planet.
WE SHOULD HAVE TAUGHT EDWIN THE GYRO BALL.
I'm more amused that Edwin came up.
It’s like the ~250-275 comment mark. Once you hit that, his name is coming up. This thread could be about pie and someone would say “You know who threw a good pie? Edwin.”
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I blame the Dodgers.
Why the fuck would you give up Edwin for Lance Carter and Danys Baez?
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Two All-Star Relievers!
Obviously, the Dodgers made it a 7 inning game. Let’s go get us some JJ Putz!
Eh
No need for you to take it out of context. I was looking at Hickeys performance. I brought up a few former pitchers. Even Shawn Camp. If we are going to look at Hickeys performance then it makes sense to look at the players he has had.
Would you disagree though
that it might be the right move to replace Hickey next year? I mean do you really think someone will do worse than him?
by RaysTheRoof on May 26, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly he doesn't do anything
the pitchers aren’t getting any better, they may be getting worse. why not just try a new guy. What is it going to hurt?
by RaysTheRoof on May 26, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Assuming the decline is on Hickey is taking a rather large leap of faith.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
If I flick the switch and the light doesn't come on, then the wiring must be bad!
Couldn’t be the light bulb is dead.
Shit, I don't even care if the decline is on him
he sure as hell isn’t helping much so just try a new guy.
by RaysTheRoof on May 26, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
And if the new guy suffers similar results, then what?
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Switch em up again
I personally don’t think stability is something critical at the pitching coach position.
by RaysTheRoof on May 26, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather focus on fixing the personnel than switch pitching coaches every few weeks.
In 2007, the Rays pitching staff was pretty decent, despite an awful ERA, they had a good FIP. Last year, well, we all know, this year, things are down. Hickey seemed to do a fair enough job the past two years.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Mike Butcher seemed pretty poor.
I don’t really know what Hickey does or doesn’t do. The biggest issues seem to be Kazmir’s health, not on him entirely; Niemann’s hard-head, might be on Hickey, not sure; Sonnanstine being unSonnanstine, no idea who this one is on; and Garza becoming the supreme supreme, again, is this on him, or is it natural progression? No clue.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
i think they would benefit under a psychiatrist-type pitching coach like Rick Peterson.
by walkoffwalk on May 26, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Turns out he was right
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably the Victor Zambrano thing.
In his defense, he was right about Kaz not holding up.
And he predicted the whole Mark Prior having terrible mechanics when no one else did. I sure wouldn’t mind him. He fits in with our enlightened FO/staff.
It has nothing to do with Zambrano.
He couldn’t fix him because he was literally broken. Not his mechanics, his arm. Rick Peterson is not Dr. James Andrews.
Tools Whore
i don't think we can with hickey under contract and this F/O doesn't seem like the type to make this type of move in the middle of a season. I don't really blame them because they have preached patience and have ultimately been successful.
by walkoffwalk on May 26, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
I don’t really know what he does or doesn’t do. I’m just saying i don’t think it would hurt to bring a new guy in. But in the end it probably doesn’t matter to much.
by RaysTheRoof on May 26, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I love their argument
“Pitching coaches do nothing but we must keep Hickey!”
If they do nothing then you have nothing to lose. Why not test your hypothesis that they have no impact by getting a new pitching coach?
I haven't said we must keep Hickey.
Nobody knows what he does or does not do. If he’s doing his job well enough for Andrew Friedman to decide he’s worth keeping, then in this case, do we have any choice but to defer? If Niemann comes out and says Hickey preaches establishing the fastball, then I’m going to take issue. There’s just not a lot of smoke to say that Hickey started this fire.
It’s scapegoating. Just like when people were saying Steve Henderson should be fired ~3 weeks ago. Now what are people saying?
At least with Maddon you can talk about his strategy, with Hickey, it’s an unknown.
Of course, I wouldn’t mind seeing Xavier Hernandez get a big league job, he seems like a pretty smart guy.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not in favor of anything without the proper analysis
I just think it is something worth looking at. There has to be some sort of measure to determine how a pitching coach or hitting coach is performing. There has to be a way to hold them accountable.
If the data shows that Hickey is doing fine, or even if the data shows that we cannot tell if Hickey is doing poor then thats fine by me and I’ll support him. I just don’t see the problem with trying to answer that question.
The data would be way too inconclusive.
Even with just a list of how pitchers perform under Hickey, there’s not enough data involved to really isolate Hickey’s influence either way.
It’s like trying to determine who calls a better game, Navarro or Hernandez. Even if you went through every game this year the two called and matched up the results, there’s still too many other factors involved to make a decisive statement either way.
Balfour was lights out in the minors last year
He was kicking ass prior to Hickey. Balfour has gotten worse this year. Throwing softer with less control.
Shields posted 3.86 FIP the year prior to Hickey and a 3.82 FIP last year
FYI Shields has a 4.41 FIP this year, which is even higher than his first year in the majors (2006). At best Hickey didn’t screw him up, but he certainly did not improve him.
Happy Birthday Zorilla!
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 8:56 AM EDT reply actions
(The real one, not the poster)
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Is anybody else worried Price is the next Kaz
not the crappy 2009 Kaz. The good Kaz, but also the one who rarely makes it to inning 6. I don’t want to overreact to one start with a small stike zone ump. I would just like to hear others thoughts.
Cut Izzy!
no
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Not after 2 major league starts
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on May 26, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
He has seemed to have pitch count problems all year
Just wondering why you guys seem to be so sure he will be able to keep it under control consistently
Cut Izzy!
yahoo even brings up the small strike zone....
Given the first save opportunity since Troy Percival’s trip to the DL, Izzy promptly blew the save as well as the game on Sunday.
Recommendation: Izzy gave up three straight walks before allowing the game winning single to Victor Martinez. Giving Izzy some slack, this was a nine inning game that was called very closely behind the plate; 19 walks were issued.
19 walks in a game, how often do you see that?
strike zone
plotting the strike zone is the stupidest thing i ever saw. the strike zone is not a stagnant box, it’ different for each player, sometimes each pitch. is the box you plotted at the catcher’s glove? the front or back of the plate? and doesn’t it matter if jamey carroll is batting as opposed to grady sizemore? and didn’t the indians walk nine? geez!
How about the lack of strike outs from the 'pen?
Price struck out 6 in 3 1/3 innings.
The bullpen struck out NOBODY the rest of the game. How is that even possible?
Because none of them except for Balfour can even hit 90
And Balfour himself lost a few MPH
Ah yes!
Because JP Howell has so much trouble striking people out throwing under 90 mphs.
Also, Dale Thayer and Izzy both threw over 90.
Don't have to throw really fast to strike people out
In almost 6 innings, we should have been able to strike someone out.
You are pretty dense today
Throwing harder is surely related to getting swinging strikes. Howell gets tons of movement so he gets his share of swinging strikes. The rest of the soft tossing part of our pen? I mean christ do you really think Shouse can get strike outs? You cannot really think that.
I'm sorry.
Was there any other way to interpret “Because none of them except for Balfour can even hit 90”?
Not only were you wrong in a literal sense (Thayer, Izzy, fuck, I think even Cormier hits 90), but in a throwing harder – generating swinging strikes. As we’ve seen with JP Howell, Andy Sonnanstine, Chad Bradford, et cetra, movement, command, and deception are more important than simply throwing hard.
Our bullpen failed last night because we couldn’t locate pitches… most notably our two hardest throwing guys giving up easy walks.
I'm talking about in general
Our staff lacks “K” guys so it shouldn’t be surprising when we don’t get many strikeouts.
Per Fangraphs our bullpen has the 4th lowest K/9 in the majors this year. Our pen k/9 is 6.58…only the twins, nats, and rangers are worse.
That's completely different then what you said. BE CAREFUL, THE INTERNET IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.
Grant Balfour Career K/9: 10.77
JP Howell Career K/9: 8.18
Dan Wheeler Career K/9: 8.01
Dale Thayer Career K/9 (minors): 9.02
Come again?
Other than Shouse (who is there for groundballs and lefties) and Cormier (long relief, groundball pitcher, 5.06 career 9/k) what non-strikeout pitchers are you talking about?
Sometimes baseball is like getting drunk and forgetting what you did the other night
Sometimes you wake up in bed naked with a really hot girl.
Sometimes you wake up alone in some cheap hotel room with your wallet missing and find out a month later you have the clap.
This was the perfect storm, and perhaps karmic vengeance for that big comeback last year.
We’ll get them today.
AC/DC + Tampa Bay Rays = Big Balls on a Budget
If we can respond to blowing a World Series game in similar fashion, I'm sure we'll have no problem rebounding against the Injins in May.
Particularly with Garza on the mound. This calls for a Blood Meridian quote!
His neck had been broken and his head hung straight down and it
flopped over strangely when they let him onto the ground. The hills
beyond the minepit were reflected grayly in the pools of rainwater
in the courtyard and the partly eaten mule lay in the mud with its
hindquarters missing like something from a chromo of terrific war.
Within the doorless cuartel the man who’d been shot sang church
hymns and cursed God alternately. The squatters stood about the
dead boy with their wretched firearms at rest like some
tatteredemalion guard of honor.
Sign Pedro Martinez
Send DP to the BP and send Isringhausen to the retirement office. David Price can be a long releiver when the starter can’t bridge the gap.
by PewterPirate55 on May 26, 2009 10:01 AM EDT reply actions
Congratulations for having the dumbest fucking comment in a long time.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
David Price, throwing 75 innings for the season...
Perfect use of the best pitching prospect in ball!
Because we shouldn't protect the best pitching prostpect in baseball
After he, you know, logged more innings than he ever pitched before the year prior.
2009 Rays Baseball: God Damn It, Guys
No
I’m explaining the fact that he’s only pitched 75 innings because his PC was limited in Durham.
2009 Rays Baseball: God Damn It, Guys
The same people who want to protect Price
Also seem to want Davis up NAO.
by PlayOnWords on May 26, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Guess who reads out postgame threads...
Hey Nole, you got a lot of guts hiding behind your damn computer don’t ya? Gutless puke
Bigdog
I wish I was making this shit up
2009 Rays Baseball: God Damn It, Guys
...the fuck is wrong with him?
AC/DC + Tampa Bay Rays = Big Balls on a Budget
by Orlando Rays on May 26, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I forget what story the Big Lead did, but Colin Cowherd (ESPN radio host and asshat)
decided he was sick of these silly little bloggers pretending to be serious. So, he told all of his listeners to visit the Big Lead at the same time and overload the bandwidth. Which they did, and the site was down for three days.
I’m not even a fan of the Big Lead, but that’s fairly despicable.
I don't think he hates the site enough to do that.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think he has enough listeners to do that
AC/DC + Tampa Bay Rays = Big Balls on a Budget
by Orlando Rays on May 26, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm sure all the hits would be welcomed and perhaps people might learn something.
by walkoffwalk on May 26, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
That's what he's afraid of
If people learn something, they might stop listening to him.
2009 Rays Baseball: God Damn It, Guys
Hellickson Please.
Is there any chance in hell we may call up Hell Boy to close out games? His chance for a spot in the rotation is slim to none now that Price is up.
Wow. I missed that. I guess I’ve been too busy with life turmoil and divorce this year. Need to make more time for baseball!
by floridaroar on May 26, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Just replace it with Wade Davis
AC/DC + Tampa Bay Rays = Big Balls on a Budget
by Orlando Rays on May 26, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Add Winston Abreu to the 40 man roster
Just keep throwing bodies at the solution. That will fix it :(
This is where the Aki injury really hurts because we lose trade leverage to bring in a reliever.
by Jason Collette on May 26, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions
Kapler could probably be dealt for a relief arm.
by R.J. Anderson on May 26, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe it's just me
but he seems to have been hitting better lately and has been having some tough luck
Cut Izzy!
This is a team that has clawed its way back to and over .500 after a miserable start to the season
Has been one of, if not the best team in the division for the last 4-5 weeks, and has been outscoring opponents by the bucketload.
Everyone needs to cool out on the prejudice against recent results.
by PlayOnWords on May 26, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes. the team has been doing well of late, but mainly the offense. The bullpen has looked rather terrible. I didn't pull any stats but my eyes tell me the bullpen has been awful. Are my eyes wrong?
by walkoffwalk on May 26, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Team bullpen FIP is 464. That's close to the bottom third of MLB.
We’re also 10th in innings pitched, at 145. Fatigue probably had a bit to do with last night’s performance. Maddon didn’t even want to use Howell or Balfour at all, and he ended up having to use Grant.
Some 7 IP performances from Garza and Shields would be appreciated.
I'm not sure there is much to do
The offense/defense is fine. The rotation for all it’s problems isn’t something that’s going to be changed especially now that Price is here. I guess once Kazmir returns you’d have to do something with Niemann or Sonnanstine, but we are a ways away from Kaz’s return and alot can happen.
The pen has been used in alot of weird situations. Last night asked for 5.2 innings from them and got 5.1. Better starting pitching is usually the best medicine for bullpen woes.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on May 26, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Thayer lost 2.55 inches of vertical break on his fastball between Friday's appearance and last night
And about 1.61inches horizontally.
Bad night? Overuse on Friday?
Your the 420th, actually
Whose stash are you on, Kaz’s or JP’s?
2009 Rays Baseball: God Damn It, Guys
As a Mets fan (with our pen last year),
I feel your pain guys. But I can’t pity you too much, as you completely stole Kazmir from us.
PS- What was with the Adam Kennedy trade? Why let him go so early in the season when injuries (such as Aki’s) could happen? Just curious what you guys thought, as he is raking in Oakland.
Jerry Manuel...stop being....stupid...
You guys can steal kazmir back.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
How Ironic
that the guy (victor martinez) that was bitching about playing the game right and basically demanding that team stop playing when it’s down by 9 gets the game winning hit in the ninth after being down 10-0….. ugh…. somebody please plunk him tomorrow for not playing the game the right way.
Leave me alone, I'm watching monsterjam.
Leave me alone, I'm watching monsterjam.
Until Next Time,
The Sports Chief
by Top Gun Numba 1 on May 26, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
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