Kazmir Closing?
by elijahdukes on Jun 16, 2009 12:23 AM EDT
53 comments
Just want to know how you guys feel about the prospect of Kazmir in the pen as a closer or high-leverage type guy if he continues to struggle with injury/inefficiency/mechanics/crowd size/breaking pitches/location/umpires who call poor strike zones/too many Hot Cheese Fries the night before? Do you think it is possible that the Rays would consider a move to the pen for Kaz if he continues to simply struggle, or do you think they will move hiim to the DL? Do you think Kaz would even make sense in the pen, considering he is not generally good or on point in the 1st ever? Do you think Kaz smokes blunts or vaporizes or hits a Zong/Rowr or sticks to j's? WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO KAZMIR??? How would you feel about the Kaz-pen for the playoffs: Kazmir CL, Balfour SU, Howell SU, Nelson MR, Shouse LOOGY , Davis MR, and Sonnanstine (LR)? And the Kaz-less playoff rotation? Shields, Garza, Price, Niemann?'
btw before you all blast me: This is not my idea. I saw it on an MLBTR post and I was instantly intrigued. I know the whole "bullpen pitches way fewer innings so saves way total fewer runs compared to replacement" argument and that's obviously true - I'm suggesting that if Kaz continues to have control, efficiency, and other struggles as a starter. would a move to the pen help?
Just throwing it out there.
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We can't afford to pay a reliever 6+ million.
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 12:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I didn't know you owned the Rays?
Then again, even in Mark Topkin’s article in the St Pete Times he questions the “tapped out” Silverman quip.
by ConnorManning on Jun 16, 2009 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm borderline convinced that Mark Topkin automatically defaults to the adversarial position of whatever position the consensus on this site is.
"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."
by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you suggest releasing Kazmir? Or trading him at his all time low MV?
It is a sunk cost at this point. Budget wise there is literally no difference between Kazmir in the rotation and Price in the pen. Or Kazmir in the rotation and Neimann in the pen. Or vice versa.
Once the payroll is set then you have to put the players in the best spots for the team to win.
Should we pay relievers that much? No. But once the season starts roles like that become irrelevant as the money has to be paid (again unless you want to trade him at his all time low MV).
by matthan on Jun 16, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd almost rather have the budget room than waste 12 million on a reliever in two years when we could use that money to upgrade elsewhere
And/or re-sign Upton/Howell/Garza/etc.
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know that
I’m saying if Kaz continues to do as poorly as he was, what can the Rays really do?
by elijahdukes on Jun 16, 2009 12:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and get no value for him
If Kaz is sporting a 6+ ERA and 6+ FIP around trade deadline, and knowing that they would be on the hook for several more years at an even higher average annual salary, who would really want him and what would the Rays get in return? Likely nothing, and they may even have to pay salary or accept a salary dump type deal.
by elijahdukes on Jun 16, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At that point we're moving present and future salary
I think someone would definitely take Kaz if his physical came back as healthy.
Maybe I’m just an old fashioned BJ suck-off-er. (Good call Sandy)
by Lurch's Lobbyists on Jun 16, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if it's somethign physically wrong
or if its mental. Maybe we need to do some tests to see hwo cotton candy affects him.
by Buc Wild on Jun 16, 2009 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
only if we got something good in return
Rays baseball + Colorado Football= amazing
by raysfan81 on Jun 16, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone could be sold on him.
Example cases are E-Jax and Jason Hammel, both of which are “doing better” since they left Tampa.
"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."
by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's always a fool on the market.
Someone will buy that his mechanics are the problem, or that he won’t take our coaches advice after the elbow scare, and give us decent value for him.
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like him more as a closer than a starter but I agree with RJ that we can't afford it.
It would also kill Kazmir’s trade value if he was unsuccessful as a closer and we’d be stuck with him. I would like to see him get traded after a few starts when he gets back even if we don’t get that much in return.
Been on the bandwagon since '98
by dray on Jun 16, 2009 12:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also: Maddon is using J.P. better than just about any manager is using their best reliever right now.
Post on that tomorrow AM.
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 1:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Some genius posted that weeks ago....here even.
I agree with giving Kaz a shot in the pen as closer if J.P. doesn’t work out. I have to admit I wasn’t for Howell closing since I’ve always had the traditional power closer menatality. Kudos to J.P. for performing well thus far (all star?)
The reason I like Scott in the pen is he seems flighty on the mound. He’s always thinking rather than getting up there and just throwing the f’n ball. He constantly is trying not to overthrow, looking down at his alignment after a pitch etc. This is the shit that is worked on with Hickey in his BP sessions that should be 2nd nature when he takes the hill.
Now if Kaz was told to go out there and “let it rip” baby! I believe he’d make a great closer. In fact his mentality be so short sighted and not knowing how to pitch naturally for an entire game at this juncture shows he’s a BP guy.
I believe he could be dominat in the pen. Good post.
by ConnorManning on Jun 16, 2009 8:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree with you on this one.
aside from how much we are on the hook for one would think that allowing to go out and just pitch as opposed to being worried about pitch counts would open thing up a little. Also, we could possibly see an increase of a MPH or two on the fastball. All that being said I don’t see that as something this group would try and do.
As for it hurting his trade value if it doens’t work out I tend to disagree. Anyone who would trade for him now is a team not scared to eat a little salary and buy low on a guy. The fact that we tried him out in the pen would not scare these teams away.
Finally, I believe the salary number could be a reason to try him in the pen. We can’t afford to get nothing out of a guy we are paying 6 mill for, and who knows maybe he fits in that roll. It seems like a move to the bullpen is what the “experts” always forcasted for Kaz back in the day.
by JRays on Jun 16, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Based on what we've seen from Kaz, he is by no means a 'power closer'.
For the sake of argument, let’s say when you put him in the bullpen he picks up a couple of ticks on his fastball, so now he’s pitching 92MPH. What do you call a pitcher with a low-90’s fastball, below-average control, flat bendy things and a tendancy to try to pitch through pain and not acknowledge it?
You call it Troy Percival.
"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."
by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh!
When Kaz is on and Hickey doesn’t have him all screwed up he’s throwing in the mid 90’s. In a 1 inning close opportunity Scottie could go out there and just bring it with no worries of having to go 100 pitches in an economical amout of innings.
I believe his heads more screwed up than anything else when he’s on the mound. With a weak BP, I’d definately give Kaz a shot as a power pitcher from the left side.
Wasn’t it Joba who pitched 1 inning a night throwing 97-99 MPH and now throws around 92 MPH as a starter?
by ConnorManning on Jun 16, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, people bringing up, "It's gotta be mental."
When did you get a psych degree?
Rays Win!
by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 16, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's got that "Your uneducated assumptions are always wrong while mine are always right" bit going.
"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."
by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey now I have to work pretty damn hard to present myself as this uneducated
In other words, do you know how hard it is to make something this pretttay look like a chump?
Rays Win!
by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 16, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it would require a lobotomy.
Then we could speculate on your problems being mental too.
"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."
by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have lost 4-5 WPM off my good rants
Maybe it’s mental.
Rays Win!
by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 16, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably mechanical
Thats what happens when you type while on youporn
by matthan on Jun 16, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My stroke coach has me all confused she wants me to start up higher and I think I pulled a muscle in
my quad from her new tips. At this point I can’t tell if it’s mental or what. I’m thinking of firing my stroke coach and bringing up the next in line from the farm.
Rays Win!
by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 16, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've had a lot more typographical and thought-process errors in recent weeks. I think it's mental too. I can't handle the pressure of being a modmin.
"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."
by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think if Hickey leaves him alone that suddenly he's going to pick up 6-7MPH on his fastball?
I assure you that won’t be the case. IF Hickey is screwing him up, it would take him weeks, like say a trip to the DL to rework his mechanics (again) in order to ‘fix’ him.
Also, Joba is still throwing high-90s heat, but he doesn’t do it until about after the 3rd inning so you’re wrong there.
"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."
by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Kazmir decline took place on Hickeys watch
So he has to take some of the blame. If it is an injury then he shouldn’t be pitching.
Although I don’t think anyone can say with certainty whether it is mechanical, physical or mental. Or perhaps all three. Switching roles almost definitely isn’t going to bring back old kaz. Pitching doesn’t work like that.
by matthan on Jun 16, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to agree or disagree with opinions on Hickey
I will say that relatively recent circumstances do indicate that more pitchers are getting bad worse with him as a pitching coach then pitchers are getting good. Garza has improved, so has Howell. Kazmir, Hammel, Jackson all have not. But as RJ stated, we really don’t know what Hickey’s role is as a pitching coach; but if we assume that he ‘manages the pitchers’, you can’t ignore the vast improvements seen in Garza and Howell.
"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."
by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garza has definitely improved under his watch whereas Kaz has declined tremendously
It is impossible to determine how he is doing with a sample size of 5 players though
by matthan on Jun 16, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What we need is the real Kazmir to go out and throw 6-7 innings every start with 8-9 K's 3-4 BB's and 3-4 hits
If he can do that then no one will want him in the pen. If he can’t pitch like his usual self, then what is the point of running him out there in high leverage situations? I think the two options are starter or DL.
Rays Win!
by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 16, 2009 9:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How can you guys say we cannot afford Kaz
He was already budgeted in the payroll.
Sure paying a reliever that much isn’t the brightest thing, but it is already budgeted. Do something in the offseason then. Trading him at his all time low just to save a few bucks is about as dumb as it gets. Especially since even horrid Kaz would be a solid reliever.
by matthan on Jun 16, 2009 9:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How can you say taht Kaz would be a solid reliever?
Did you watch him pitch this season? Have you seen anything that indicates that he’ll be better when used in one inning versus 6? Did you notice how often he got lit-up in the 1st inning this season?
"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."
by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he is a reliever then he won't be going in the first inning
It is a large assumption that first inning troubles as a starter will equal first inning troubles as a reliever. They are two different things.
I don’t think he will be great. I think he will be solid. As in I think he will be better than Wheeler or Percival. Even without regaining form I think it is likely he will be better than Nelson and probably Balfour also.
by matthan on Jun 16, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think anyone said that he would
attomatically be a solid reliever just that the change might help and then we can get something out of him.
by JRays on Jun 16, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Personally, I still think you give him another shot as a starter. Maybe if he fails as a starter again you try him in the bullpen, but people saying you move him to the bully after 1 season of average performance plagued by injury followed by 1/3 a season of below-average performance is extreme.
Either you’re going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s going to come back better, or you don’t. If you think he comes back a better pitcher, you try him as a starter because that’s what he is. If you don’t, you make him a reliever. But you can’t make him a reliever and say he’s suddenly going to find better control and considerably higher velocity because if he was that much better, you’d make him a starter. If he’s a reliever, he’s a reliever with poor control, a low-90s fastball, a declining slider, and a show-me change. Frankly, in that scope, at his best he’s healthy Troy Percival from last year, and at worst he’s Troy from this year. Either way, he’s Troy Percival, and we’ve seen this song and dance before.
"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."
by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is affordable!
The money is plentiful in Tampa Bay. In fact this team is a cash cow.
by ConnorManning on Jun 16, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do realize he was in the budget?
If you trade him then the team would be spending less than what they planned on spending.
by matthan on Jun 16, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which allows us to do other things with the money.
And could make us better.
by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His salary may be budgeted for, but trading him would open money for a possible move at the deadline
for something like a catcher or another pitcher or another position if somebody else gets hurt. Yes, we can afford to pay him $6M as a reliever, but it isn’t a smart or efficient way to spend the money.
by nolesblogger on Jun 16, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trading players when they are at their lowest possible value
is one of the stupidest things a baseball team can do. Trading him at this point would be nearly a salary dump. We’re looking at getting someone equivalent to the garbage we got for Hammell at this point. I’d rather give him a chance to improve then sell high after he makes some good starts or bullpen appearances. Its worth the risk, since even if continues to suck his value can’t fall much further.
by RaysTheRoof on Jun 16, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying we should trade him
I’m just saying we should do it before we send him to the pen
by nolesblogger on Jun 17, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Indirect Approach:
1) Fire/Demote Hickey
2) Bring Xavier Hernandez up and see if scott can do better
3) If he does do better, we are all happy
4) If he doesn’t do better, we know kaz is screwed
We need Robots....The time is now Bud, Stern, and Goodell.
Seriously, Officiating Sucks in this Country
by Some other guy who does not care on Jun 16, 2009 9:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We're playing .600+ ball over the last month
You don’t upset the applecart because some morons think the Pitching Coach should be fired
You don’t ruin your AAA staff by removing someone they have learned to trust
Bullshit
Bullshit
Rays Win!
by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 16, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sarcasm
Fail
We need Robots....The time is now Bud, Stern, and Goodell.
Seriously, Officiating Sucks in this Country
by Some other guy who does not care on Jun 16, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you a results based psychologist?
by matthan on Jun 16, 2009 9:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My problem with Kaz in the bullpen
is that most of his problems seem to come from the first 2 innings. Walking people, getting hits. Once he gets out of those first 2 innings, he’s pretty much golden. Now, If he goes into the closers role, that’s 1 inning….I’m not sure if i could take percival lite on the mound at that point. Although, the preparation for closing is different mentally then starting, so perhaps it could make a difference. but our bullpen has become pretty solid over the last month, and there’s no need to fk up the chemistry there.
by chancedj on Jun 16, 2009 10:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I read the title as "Kazmir cloning?"
I could support that.
by RATW on Jun 16, 2009 1:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Just get a new 22-year-old version every 3 years
I’m down.
I could be wrong though
by staplemaniac on Jun 16, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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