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Dave Cameron Proposes a Trade

Dave Cameron's newest post at USSM tackles the idea of buying and selling, and well, he wants to buy Reid Brignac. Cameron mentions Erik Bedard and Jeff Clement as potential fits for the Rays, and also notes it's possible that A) the Rays wouldn't want Bedard due to injury related pitfalls, B) couldn't afford Bedard, and C) just wouldn't trade Brignac because he's a pretty fine player to have in the pipeline.

I can understand the idea of the Rays acquiring Bedard. He ends any questions about whether the quality of rotation is there, and maybe, just maybe he sneaks into the Type-A status which would net the Rays some extra draft picks. But then there's the whole salary and injury thing, and we already have a southpaw, albeit of lesser quality, with those same issues. Once Kazmir returns, the Rays have six starters for five spots even if one of Sonnanstine/Niemann/Talbot is sent back to Seattle.

The long-term piece of the equation is Jeff Clement. I've talked about him before. He's a lefty, there's questions about his ability to call games and there's a knee injury that has bugged him for most of the year. His bat is pretty good, and he'd fit the Trop quite nicely. He's almost 26-years-old but he's a former top five draft pick with less than 250 career plate appearances. He's hit extremely well in the minors; batting .282/.371/.487 in Triple-A alone. There are some questions about his bat speed and whether he can catch, but the worst case scenario is Clement becoming a first baseman or DH.

The question comes down to whether you want Brignac as your shortstop or second baseman within the next 3-5 years, and whether Clement can stick at catcher. Bedard is a rental piece and at best a 2 win upgrade the rest of the way, although even that seems a bit optimistic depending on which pitcher the Rays are sending back, if any.

I don't know if Bedard/Clement for Brignac/non-elite starting pitcher is the best match, but I can bet the two teams will be discussing similar deals we approach July 31st.

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What about Brandon Morrow?

even though I doubt the Mariners whould part with him

Rays baseball + Colorado Football= amazing

by raysfan81 on Jun 16, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions  

If it were just Brignac for Bedard and Clement, I'd do it in a heart beat.

Bedard and Clement could be worth 3-4 extra wins for us, which might be the difference between the Wild Card and the division, or the Wild card and sitting at home. Brignac is going to be a good player and we won’t hold onto Bedard past this year, but the potential to make the playoffs and possibly get an improvement at C (or atleast have an excellent catcher platoon) is enticing.

Maybe Kaz/Brig for Bedard/Clement?

by Suttree on Jun 16, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions  

If we can do something like

Talbot and Brignac for Clement and Bedard, I would do it faster than Taylor Swift

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 16, 2009 3:01 PM EDT reply actions  

If Brignac is going to be traded, I'd want to see him traded for someone who will be a catcher now, not someone who might not be a catcher ever again.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 3:14 PM EDT reply actions  

This time, I'm not joking.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't he have his testicle crushed on a foul-ball?

I don’t know, I don’t pay that much attention to teams that far away.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

me too

Him and Pujols make me creamy!

Mound Visit

by Mound Visit on Jun 16, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

No shot at happening but still...

A buddy of mine follows the Cards close and he said LaRussa would sooner trade Pujols than Yadi. He was kidding, obviously. LaRussa is a crusty old bastard as is and if they traded Yadi him and Moz might throw down.

Jeter Sucks.

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jun 16, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've been talking about a Brignac/Clement type deal with other M's writers for the last few days.

I go back and forth really.

If Zobrist is legit, you have nowhere for Brignac to play, and you’re essentially trading an extra part now and in the future for a damn good pitcher and a potentially very good catcher.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 3:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Zobrist was around -8.5 at SS.

Add 5 runs, he’s probably a -5 < x < 5 defender at 2B. I dunno, if his bat is legit, I’d take the slightly below average defense at second with the big bat over putting him in LF.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I suppose I meant LF in context of trading CC.

Which would probably mean Joyce-Upton-Gross, if we keep Zobrist at 2b.

by Suttree on Jun 16, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do we still control Gross next year?

If so, I agree. Fuck, I’d take it this year if we dealt Carl for some nasty package.

by Suttree on Jun 16, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Waiting until closer to the deadline

seems most prudent. Better picture of where we are as a team and what direction we want to move. Plus, CC or a SP may be part of the package at that point.

by Buc Wild on Jun 16, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let's say Bedard makes type-A status

He seems like the kind of pitcher (injury history) that my accept arbitration as the market may not be where he would like. Then we would be fucked. Is this a concern at all?

Jeter Sucks.

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jun 16, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do we have to offer arbitration to get the draft picks for a Type-A player?

I agree that it would be a mistake to not offer arbitration to a player that meets it, but if the team is worried about him accepting it then you don’t have to offer it.

by nolesblogger on Jun 16, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not like you have to make a realistic offer

If you offer him 500,000 to play next year they should be in the clear.

Rays Win!

by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 16, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's not how arbitration works though.

If you offer him 500k, and Bedard says 9 million, well, the arbitrator isn’t ruling in favor of you, that’s for sure.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

In arbitration both sides make 1 offer

and the arbitrator picks oe that they believe to be the most fair.

by nolesblogger on Jun 16, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

It depends on the sport...

in baseball as the CBA was negotiated it is one or the either. I believe in hockey the arbitrator has the discretion to choose either one or something in between. I seem to recall a few years ago Alfonso Soriano was awarded the largest contract in arbitration history (at the time), and it was on a losing arbitration.

Boom. Outta Here.

by Ryan Gilliss on Jun 16, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

We aren't offering him a price when we extend the offer.

We’re offering him the chance to go in front of a mediator and basically give him 50/50 odds of naming his price for one year.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then not offering would definitely not be the way to go.

But even if he did accept, you’d still be getting pretty good value for a very good playerunless something crazy happened.

by nolesblogger on Jun 16, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I tried doing a quick projection.

I have Bedard at about 2 wins if he throws 100 innings with us from here on out.
I didn’t do anything with Clement, but unless he’s an absolute corpse, he’ll upgrade our catching staff by probably a win, maybe more.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem though

Is that Bedard isn’t a 2 win upgrade. He’s more like 1-1.5

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh. Well, that's dissapointing.

Still’d be a solid enough trade, though.

by Suttree on Jun 16, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

umm

Sheilds
Garza
Price
Sonny
Niemann
Kazmir
Bedard

assuming one of those guys is part of the deal (most likely Sonny) that still leaves us with 6 starters. If it is a guy like Talbot than we have 7 starters. I wouldn’t see us making this trade unless a 3rd team is involved that would send us some spects for another starter. Keep in mind in the case of an injury we still have Davis if we have to call someone up.

by Dbullsfan on Jun 16, 2009 3:20 PM EDT reply actions  

He's finally starting to show something here and there

The last thing I want to do is play with his mind right now. Look what happened when Shields got bumped up to take that start from him last week.

Rays Win!

by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 16, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Given his potential and good starts this year

wouldn’t he be much more valuable in a trade than in a pen. Especially if he is just going to be used in a long relief role.

by Dbullsfan on Jun 16, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree and actually think Niemann would be very good in a late inning role

I just think Maddon really likes Wheeler, Balfour, and Howell and it may be tough to crack that rotation. And god forbid Percival comes back he doesn’t seem to pitch in low leverage situations very often.

by Dbullsfan on Jun 16, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's why you give up Wheeler as part of the deal.

Shed some salary, and Maddon’s urge to use him like he’s Rivera.

Maddon’s bpen management has been much better lately, though.

by Suttree on Jun 16, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

bullpen gets full quickly if they add Aardsma thought

even if you subtract Wheeler we are adding Bradford soon, Percy potentially and than adding a starter (niemann) + Aardsma.

by Dbullsfan on Jun 16, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Basically, you're looking at this.

Brignac
Wheeler

for

Bedard
Clement

which makes

SP Shields
SP Garza
SP Price
SP Bedard
SP Niemann

RP Howell
RP Balfour
RP Cormier
RP Nelson
RP Abreu
RP Sonnanstine
RP Bradford

Probably cut Choate, which sucks, but whatever.

by Suttree on Jun 16, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was just chatting with a Seattle friend of mine

said the same thing. Throw in Sonny or Niemann to that deal and he’d love it for the M’s

by Jason Collette on Jun 16, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well of course he would.

Seattle gets a long-term 3/4th starter and a really good shortstop for a few months of Bedard and a player who wasn’t a fit there anyways.

Of course, M’s fans could say:

Tampa gets a long-term catcher and a really good pitcher for a few years of Sonnanstine and a player who wasn’t a fit there anyways.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brandon Morrow

Rays baseball + Colorado Football= amazing

by raysfan81 on Jun 16, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

This sounds about right.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

The thought of losing Brignac is sad

but

Shields
Kazmir
Bedard
Garza
Price

is really really sexy

by Dbullsfan on Jun 16, 2009 3:54 PM EDT reply actions  

for a short period of time

but we won’t be able to afford him next year. Though to be competitive next year we will have to increase salary.

Rays baseball + Colorado Football= amazing

by raysfan81 on Jun 16, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't mind the picks and

Shields
Kazmir
Garza
Price
Davis

doesn’t suck either.

by Dbullsfan on Jun 16, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who's goin to replace Carlos in the future?

if Clement could be a 1B then it might be a good idea to try.

Rays baseball + Colorado Football= amazing

by raysfan81 on Jun 16, 2009 4:02 PM EDT reply actions  

The only actual concern is health.

One of the only blind spots the new FO has is catcher defense. They’re obsessed with it. Clement isn’t a good defensive catcher but catcher defense isn’t that big of a deal (most likely) and he’s going to outhit most catchers.

by Aaron Campeau on Jun 16, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alright, question

We trade them Navi in the deal as well as Sonny and Brignac of course

-2.1 Mil

Percival, Shouse, Nelson and Bradford all off the books

- 9 Mil

Aki’s option prob not picked up with Zobrist beng part of our MIF until the Beckham days

-4 Mil

That is 15.1 off the books WITH keeping Kaz and Crawford

so we offer arbitration, we either keep a stud SP which we can now afford or we get the extra pick.

2010 Rotation, Lineup, Bullpen, Bench

1. James Shields
2. Matt Garza
3. David Price
4. Wade Davis
5. Scott Kazmir (or dare I say, Bedard?)

CL J.P Howell
SU Jeff Niemann
MR Grant Balfour
MR Lance Cormier (gotta resign this stud)
MR Dan Wheeler (last year of his stupid deal)
MR New loogy (we seem to get a new one every year)
MR Random AAA arm/signed guy/ guy we got in trade

Upton CF
Crawford LF
Longoria 3B
Pena 1B
Zobrist 2B
Burrell DH
Joyce RF
Bartlett SS
Clement C

Bench: Either we don’t trade Navi or we hope again Riggans is healthy or hell, Jaso gets a chance so…

Riggans/Navarro/Jaso, Aybar, we sign some lefty for this spot, some MIF

ANYWAY, after all that, my point is this, if we do this and Kaz comes back like Kaz (putting Niemann in the pen)

We have a great arm in the pen and a WS rotation of Shields – Bedard – Garza – Price – Kazmir (maybe too many lefties….)

Howell, Niemann, Cormier, Balfour, Nelson, Choate, Bradford (DL Wheeler!). I have seen all of them just shut teams down

12 great arms while our best offense in the AL gets better

Ok now my hand feels like I just jerked off for a few hours but that would be SICK. End of story

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 16, 2009 4:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Cots has us with 39 mil guaranteed next year.

Which gives us 25 mil in difference.

Brignac/Sonnanstine do little to the budget either way.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

25 mil

Howell should get what about 2 mil his first year of arb? more?
B.J will hopefully get to a point where he can ask for a lot, put it at 6 and hope he is worth more
Barty is getting close to 4 mil next year, thats the issue with dealing Brignac

That’s 12. Then we have Navi who we dont know if we keep, Balfour who unfortunaley cant demand much so far. Aybar is already signed.

Garza is a scary one, that is gonna cost A LOT, lets say 9 mil but it can be even more

21 mil.

So we can try to trade Kaz and then actually keep Bedard. and have a rotation so amazing that Hellickson would have no spot.

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 16, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Garza isn't scary if he keeps being a hard luck loser.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like that

Rays baseball + Colorado Football= amazing

by raysfan81 on Jun 16, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you think Bedard will be a type A

Then I think you do the deal.

You’re basically trading Brignac for Clement and then unloading one of the spare SP’s for a 1st rounder…

The Rays have a stockpile of fringe SP’s. I think a first round pick for one of them is a pretty good return. Plus you get a half year of a damn good SP.

by tallyray on Jun 16, 2009 4:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Well it depends how much you value a compensation pick...

I don’t know what the worth is, but it’s significantly less than the two picks the Type A would command (I had to refresh my knowledge of compensation).

I think Clement is potentially much more valuable than Brignac, thus think this would be a pretty good deal. I also think the Rays need to find a way to turn their fringe starters into some sort of value, and this is one outlet.

by tallyray on Jun 16, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree although the earlier we can get this deal done the more it benefits us.

If we can get it done early July and can get 3-4 more starts out of Bedard it makes a difference

by Dbullsfan on Jun 16, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are the Mariners that high on Brignac?

I know they view Clement as a spare part and Bedard as someone to sell, but are Sonny and Briggy enough?

Rays Win!

by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 16, 2009 4:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Heh, the team is smarter than I thought even

Practicing him at 2B, showing him off at SS, fixing his swing could of all been to show case him, which is god damn genius. Man, I want Bedard now

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 16, 2009 4:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Or they want him to be actually good.

If they believe in Briggy, I’m in favor of dealing Barty after the season, should we get a sexy ass offer for him.

by Suttree on Jun 16, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dont know about that.

Bartlett looks like he is having a career year, let us get that value from him and then sell high in the offseason, unless someone gives us an offer that blows us away.

by twenty5psi on Jun 16, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

By the time is arb is up, Beckham will likely be ready or Briggs can take over.

He gets knicked up a lot and eventually that’s going to kill his range, which is where he gets his defensive value.

by Suttree on Jun 16, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

When his arb is up, Beckham will prob be in AA

If we lose Briggy, we gotta try to give him a 1 year deal because good defensive SS’s with nice offense potential dont grow on trees. And I will throw up if Zobrist gets to be a every day SS

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 16, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought 2010 was his last arb. year

I guess it goes through 2011. That makes more sense…

Though I wouldn’t count on Beckham to be ready…

by tallyray on Jun 16, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Beckham is a question mark.

Counting on anyone who is his age is a stretch.

"What the hell is a Labradoddle?"

by davelrogers on Jun 16, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depends on the cost obviously.

But he’ll be 30 next season and 31 in his final season of team control. 32-33 year old seasons? His defense could be in the kaput by then, and we all know this isn’t his real offensive level.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 16, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love Briggy also

but we arent talking about adding Washburn and a bench player here

if we have a chance at a ace and a high potential C, we gotta take it

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 16, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

A few thoughts;

Bedard isn’t going to be a Type A unless he steps up his level of performance to a level higher than his 2007. He’s going to win more games in Tampa than Seattle most likely, but his 2008 really killed his chances of getting to Type A status.

With that being said, he’s a fantastic pitcher and going to Tampa with that defense behind him he may very well get even better results than he has in Seattle. Yes there are injury concerns, which is why the return the M’s are looking to get for him is Brignac instead of elite prospects.

Clement is going to hit and the Mariners refusal to play him at catcher in Seattle while Rob Johnson and his .243 wOBA hit seventh has been one of the more annoying parts of this season. Our offense is historically bad and we’re basically batting a pitcher because of the FO’s bizarre obsession with catcher defense and catcher intangibles. (interestingly Rob Johnson’s defense is appallingly bad.) I like Clement and I wish he had a future in Seattle, but the M’s don’t see him as a catcher. Other organizations do, and so it makes sense to move him.

I love this deal for both teams and because the M’s have decent financial resources I think they’d probably be willing to pay a good chunk of Bedard’s contract. Our situation at SS is awful and so while we might be able to get more talent elsewhere the need is so great that I think filling it is more important than maximizing absolute value.

I don’t see this trade happening unless we get a SP along with Brignac, so it’s probably going to be more than Bedard + Clement. I have no idea who else would come along. Balentien would be a nice fit in Tampa Bay (his defense is much better and his plate approach has improved as well; he is not as bad as his 2008 would suggest) but the Rays have plenty of OF depth at the ML level and Wlad’s out of options. Maybe a relief pitcher? I don’t know.

by Aaron Campeau on Jun 16, 2009 5:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Aardesma sounds good

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 16, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aardsma is going to come back to earth at some point.

I’ve got to think Tampa’s front office knows this. With that being said, he’s been by far our best reliever and seeing as how our bullpen is terrible and we’re still somewhat in contention I don’t see the M’s moving him.

by Aaron Campeau on Jun 16, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

can he hit lefties?

somehow I am still not sold on the whole Kapler thing and Balentin can certainley be better than Dillon as a fill in DH or in his case corner OF.

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 16, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not sure if you're asking about Balentien or Clement but:

Balentien has a career MiLB OPS of .812 against LHP.
Clement’s is .857.

I don’t buy Wlad having a true talent reverse platoon split though.

by Aaron Campeau on Jun 16, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was asking about Balentin

if he can hit lefties, nice replacement for Dillon now and Kapler next year

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 16, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

OT: No Pat in the field tonight
Upton, cf
Crawford, lf
Longoria, 3b
Pena, 1b
Zobrist, 2b
Bartlett, ss
Kapler, rf
Navarro, c
Niemann, p

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 16, 2009 5:44 PM EDT reply actions  

The only way I see Burrell getting onto the field is if CC isn't in left.

They won’t play him in Right because he’s too slow, and I don’t see them playing CC in left because his arm isn’t good enough, so he’d have to be out of the lineup.

I wouldn’t be suprised to see him as a late-inning pinch hitter for (gasp) BJ though, with CC moving to CF for an inning or 2 if it’s needed.

"Where we all wait in earnest with pudding in hand for the Upton comet to sail through the roofed skies, so that we may meet Him."

by kericr on Jun 16, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but I don't have time to read all the comments

Clement’s career is a catcher is done. Finito. Period.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jun 16, 2009 8:00 PM EDT reply actions  

I say get the trade done

Zobrist under control until 2013, I’m not sure about how long Barty has got, but those two are all we need in the middle in field. I think Niemann could do well out of the pen if they want to try something like that.

I would just really like to see Erik Bedard pitching for the Rays. I know he will do well.

by Matt0611 on Jun 17, 2009 3:52 AM EDT reply actions  

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