DRaysBay: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: The Boxing Bulletin for Boxing Fans!

The Sky Might Fall On David Price

Unbridled lust met by brutal reality. Many questioned whether the Rays were motivated by non-performance issues when they assigned David Price to Durham way back in the spring. As it turns out, they may have known better.

Areas of approval:

- Striking people out

- Stranding runners (unsustainably, may I add)

Areas needing improvement

- Getting batters to chase him out of the zone

- Avoiding walks

- Throwing a third pitch

To date, we've experienced six Price starts this season. That's it.  Going start-by-start; we saw jittery Price do horrible against the Indians, then turn it around five days later and dominate the Twins like nobody's business. A shaky start against the Yankees was met with back-to-back solid, progressive starts against the Angels and Rockies. Then last night happened, and now all hell has broken loose. 

Pricetra_medium

Okay, so Price isn't an ace out of the box. That's fine. He's been inconsistent, that's a given. Not many pitchers can walk nearly six per nine and be ‘consistent'. Then again, not many pitchers can strikeout 10 per game either. The homerun rate will drop and should be evened out by his strand rate dropping.

Star-divide

Let's focus on the bad things listed above.

Price's swinging strike rate is down to sub-8%. Somehow the strikeouts are still near 10 per nine, but he's just not getting a boat load of whiffs. Batters are fouling 20% of his pitches off which is how Price is getting ahead in the count more often than not. 7.4% whiffs for someone with his stuff isn't great, Andy Sonnanstine has 6.7% swings-and-misses and some of you think Sonnanstine is throwing a beach ball to hitters using oars instead of bats.

52% of Price's pitches are registering inside of the strike zone. That's the same percentage as Roy Halladay, as Scott Baker, as Matt Cain, James Shields is only at 54%, and even CC Sabathia is at 51%. The problem for Price is not "throwing more strikes" the problem for Price is "get more strikes". Yes, there is a difference. Throwing more strikes implies that Price needs to locate within the zone more often, getting more strikes means Price needs to generate strikes via batters swinging outside of the zone.

Right now, 19% of Price's pitches outside of the box are inducing swings. The closest comparables I could find were Tim Wakefield, Joe Blanton, and Brad Penny. Price has better stuff than those guys. He should be closer to Shields/Sabathia at 27%. Why isn't he?

I went back and looked at two-strike count situations from last night. 49 pitches contributed to them. Of those 49, one pitch was a change-up, 30 were fastballs, and the remaining 18 were sliders.  When I say contribute, I mean Price used those pitches to get to a two-strike count, not that he threw 49 pitches on two-strike counts.  From there, I decided to look at how Price dealt with righties who get to _-2:

Rollins: FB, FB, FB, SL  

End result: Grounder to third, misplayed by Longoria

Victorino:  FB, SL, FB, FB, SL, SL

End result: Walk

Werth: FB, FB, FB, FB, FB, SL

End result: Single

Ruiz: FB, CH, FB, SL, FB, SL

End result: Ground out

Werth: FB, SL, SL, FB, FB, FB, SL, FB

End result: Walk

Feliz: SL, FB, FB, SL, FB, SL, FB

End result: Fly out

Price is comfortable throwing sliders, but he's not burying them against righties at all. Below is the graph, I cut it off at the 3.5 mark because that's the top of a normalized zone. The bottom is at 1.5, and in between -1 and 1 is the plate. Exactly one slider is below the strike zone, and two, maybe more pitches are inside to righties.  When Price is using his slider against righties, it's inside of the zone.

Pricesliders2k_medium

So here's my crackpot theory about this whole thing. Price is struggling to get swings outside of the zone despite having good stuff because most guys aren't chasing his fastball out of the zone. Price is doing anything but burying his sliders. Instead he's trying to run the pitch inside to righties and either have them ground out or miss completely. The two sliders put into play by righties in these at-bats resulted in outs, the rest were either taken for balls or fouled off.

After hits foul off his zone pitches and lay off on fastballs outside of the zone, Price ends up walking them. It's not so much a control issue with him, more of a command and finishing issue. Price needs to throw his change-up or alter his slider placement. Once he does either of those things, I think we're looking at a pretty good pitcher.

---

Metrics used are from

Statcorner.com

FanGraphs.com

1 recs  |  Comment 78 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

As I see it...

They’re laying off the slider as much as possible and taking it for balls and just looking for a fastball they can drive. Because there is very little change in velocity, the adjustment isn’t as tough for them. If he could figure out how to locate his slider in the zone and have more confidence in his changeup, it would do wonders for him. That – and don’t be so afraid to throw inside to lefties and then bury some sliders low and away.

by Jason Collette on Jun 24, 2009 2:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I saw that he was throwing the fastball

inside to righties too much and away from lefties too much, he should have thrown the slider away from howard, but he throws a fastball.

We need Robots....The time is now Bud, Stern, and Goodell.
Seriously, Officiating Sucks in this Country

by Some other guy who does not care on Jun 24, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he locates his fastball, it doesnt matter if he throws it inr away....

As long as he commands the pitch, he can throw it to either side of the plate.

by td32 on Jun 24, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but a good slider looks like a fastball...

So it doesnt matter if they are sitting fastball. It hould still generate swings and misses. He needs to finish the pitch, so that it starts in the strike zone, and finishes near the back foot of a righty….and this needs to be done with 2 strikes. When it is aFB count, or an even count, he can throw the “get me over slider”, but with 2 strikes, he needs to induce more swing and misses.

by td32 on Jun 24, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When a lefty is throwing it....Yes...

Sliders have tighter break when they start around the middle of the plate and break down and in

by td32 on Jun 24, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting.

Cutters tend to be more effective against righties (from lefties). Are they best thrown higher, right at the hands?

by Sky Kalkman on Jun 25, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No backdoor sliders to righties is strange.

He needs a pitch that batters will miss, whether it’s a change of pace in the strike zone or something out of the zone hitters will chase. A fastball doesn’t fit either one of those.

by Sky Kalkman on Jun 24, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Needs to throw the change up and throw what is supposed to be a great slider better

And I say this, prob will be disagreed with, Price will NOT be demoted this season. I think they have said when he comes up, its for good and they are too smart to not expect a start or two like this

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 24, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

But

Where is the change-up? That’s one of the most important things he has to work on with (Xavier) hernandez when and if he goes back. That and Efficiency(which he has improved on- so it’s not important). Oh, Any news on that curve?

We need Robots....The time is now Bud, Stern, and Goodell.
Seriously, Officiating Sucks in this Country

by Some other guy who does not care on Jun 24, 2009 2:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I like Xavier and all

but he messed this up, he did not make Price feel safe throwing his change and wasted time on a stupid spike curve experiment.

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 24, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well

It’s between him and hickey, who would you have?

We need Robots....The time is now Bud, Stern, and Goodell.
Seriously, Officiating Sucks in this Country

by Some other guy who does not care on Jun 24, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Xavier

but I am just saying I expected something better and doesnt matter, Hickey isnt going any where.

Rotation: 1. James Shields 2. Matt Garza 3. David Price 4. Jeff Niemann 5. Andy Sonnanstine...... Coming Soon: Wade Davis......Scott Kazmir?

by joeybw on Jun 24, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Depends what you are looking for

I think Xavier is a better teacher though

by matthan on Jun 24, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True

Hickey does what’s needed for a MAJOR LEAGUE pitching coach, which is to tweak and refine. He’s not supposed to teach.

2009 Rays Baseball: God Damn It, Guys

by JMB on Jun 24, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Price has been below average to downright awful 5 of the 6 starts

It appears that some people are looking at minor bright spots and not the big picture. Take a look at that graph. His advanced metrics are routinely over 5, minus the one game. That just isn’t good.

I understand looking for good signs. However what we sometimes forget is that good sometimes causes bad. Okay he is throwing more strikes so he is walking less his last couple starts. Could that be the reason why he is now giving up tons of HRs and far less K’s?

RJ if you have time, could you plot or show how those metrics you mentioned (Swinging strike%, in the zone %, outside the box swinging strikes %, as well as whatever else) across his 6 starts. It seems there was a shift in strategy so it would be interesting to see how those percentages have shifted as the strategy has shifted.

by matthan on Jun 24, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

His tRA by start.

7.75
1.66
7.10
4.51
4.87
9.91

Remember that tRA is on a RA scale, so 4.9 is more like 4.6 ERA/FIP. Three of six starts have been average or better.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 24, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was just trying to eyeball the graph

Although for start 4 his tra* (which is a better indicator right?) was definitely quite a bit higher than just plain tra

Also what is the cutoff for “league average” for each different metric? And how was the average calculated?

by matthan on Jun 24, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The graph is a bit hard to read because of the high points.

I’m not sure how reliable tRA* is on a game-by-game basis. Notice it barely changes, no matter the game.

League average tRA is right around 4.7 this year.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 24, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah I see

For example there is a guy with tRA+ 101 with a tRA of 4.84…..three guys with a tRA+100 with tRAs of 4.76, 4.86, 4.87 respectively, then a guy with a tra+99 with a tra of 4.83

tra* has the same issue. Based on that I’d say league average is maybe a tenth higher than 4.76

by matthan on Jun 24, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No problem.

Gridelines are useful for graphs such as this

by matthan on Jun 24, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can only do the SwStr% by start.

I don’t have access to a game-by-game zone%, swings outside zone, etc. Here are those numbers by start: This is the SwStr/Pitches method.

7
12.96
4.72
6.67
8.08
4.55

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 24, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not what I was expecting

I thought there would be a more consistent decline

by matthan on Jun 24, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think this re-enforces the fact that the main reason Price was brought up was due to Kazmir's issues

not because he was truly ready. If Kaz doesn’t fall off the proverbial cliff, Price is still a Bull.

2009 Rays Baseball: God Damn It, Guys

by JMB on Jun 24, 2009 2:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope you are wrong

Because that is exactly what management said they wouldnt do. If they brought him up because of necessity rather than performance then its no wonder he is struggling. He just doesnt look quite ready to consistently pitch well IMO

by BJ the Bossman on Jun 24, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was necessity

When Kaz was put on the DL he was the most MLB-ready arm we had at AAA. Doesn’t mean he was truly MLB-ready, but considering the options available he was the best option.

2009 Rays Baseball: God Damn It, Guys

by JMB on Jun 24, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Im not disagreeing with you

Im just saying I hope that wasnt the case

by BJ the Bossman on Jun 24, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where's the Abreu post?

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Jun 24, 2009 2:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure that 3.66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666667

Innings is not sufficient to give FIP any meaning, of course I don’t like Winston Abreu, so maybe it’s just me.

Rays Win!

by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 24, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's one reason

And another

Guys with good peripherals in the minors, but never seem to work out in the majors. As a person I haven’t heard a bad word, as a pitcher, there are reasons why guys don’t pan out over a long enough timeline. That said he’s perfect for us because he is cheap and anything we get out of him is good value.

Rays Win!

by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 24, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You should probably note that Abreu has 42 career IP in the majors.

Stokes is embarking on his third season with 20+ innings.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 24, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which Abreu do you want to show up

06, 07, or some guy that he has always been in the minors and has never been able to translate it to the majors? Sometimes you have to take the statistical blinders off.

Rays Win!

by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 24, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zobrist

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Jun 24, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe at catcher, but I can't see him being much of a pitcher

Gabe Gross on the other hand, there’s a guy that I want on the bump

He was 5-of-14 for 25 yards and two interceptions when Leard, a junior, replaced him. New coach Tommy Tuberville then said Leard would be the new starter.

.

Rays Win!

by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 24, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just don't see any transfer to the bigs on any of his past trips from AAA to MLB

Great minor league stats and then he gets hit hard when he’s called up. I hope I’m proven wrong. The blinders comment was stupid, I apologize.

Rays Win!

by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 24, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

10.8% isn't unheard of

Sonny at 13 and Garz at 13 seems more likely to go down than Abreu’s.

Rays Win!

by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 24, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2007 was 14% for Abreu.

And even if he blows up, who cares, he earned the shot.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 24, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No doubt, I'm just not looking at him as anything more than mop up filler.

If it means Lance can transition to higher leverage, then sweet,

Rays Win!

by Sandy Kazmir on Jun 24, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His slider has been flat lately

It is basically a fat fastball in the 80s that pretty much doesn’t break the way it should. That is why I think he hasn’t been getting those swinging strikes and fewer hitters to chase the outside pitch. He has only seven Ks in his past 11.1 innings which have had those flat sliders.

by therayspartyleader on Jun 24, 2009 3:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Question for the Leave Price Up Crowd

Do you think Price should primarily be a two-pitch hurler?

Do you think Price can develop a change while in the Majors?

Do you think Spring Training 2010 is enough time to develop a third pitch if he primarily uses two this season?

These aren’t meant to be jerk questions, I really want to know your thoughts on his ultimate development.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Jun 24, 2009 4:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

1.)He can be an above average starter with 2 pitches, but I don’t think he can be dominant consistently without some sort of 3rd pitch.

2.)No

3.)Probably not

Kap-rilla???

by Sveet on Jun 24, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good questions

My thought on question 1 is that throwing his best 2 pitches in the 80-85% range seems reasonable.

I think yes he can improve his change in the majors, probably not a lot, but it can improve. I think improvement is partially a confidence issue in that the less afraid he is to throw it, the better it will be. There will be lumps and bumps along the way, but yes I think it can “develop” to some degree.

Limiting the time frame to 6 weeks is unrealistic I think…I guess my overall point is that it isn’t a light bulb moment sort of thing, where all of a sudden he has a great change.

The line of improvement isn’t always a straight one.

Just took a quick look at Kershaw just as an example, he throws FB/CB 95% of the time, his very average change 5% of the time and he’s doing just fine.

Lincecum threw his FB/CB 87% of the time in his first season, with the CH at 13%. Now he throws his change almost 20% of the time.

In Lincecum’s first 9 big league starts he gave up 36 runs in 50 innings, and he was similar to Price in terms of professional experience if not minor league performance before his MLB debut.

by spidurfan on Jun 24, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You say for Price to throw the changeup more...

but there are a few things we dont know. A mid 80s changeup is passable when you are sitting in the mid 90s, but sitting at 92-93 and throwing a changeup at 85-87 isn’t going to cut it. We don’t have enough of a sample to definatively prove the speed differential is significant enough to use.

Playing off the same point, do we even know if Price’s changeup is a usable major league pitch? I’m reluctant to believe that he has a show-me pitch that he is willingly not throwing.

Didn’t Price throw a mid-high 70s slurve at Vandy? seems like with the speed differential (even if it barely breaks) it could be useful. I know I read somewhere about it.

by Navi's_Navy on Jun 24, 2009 6:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Trop's pitchfx machine seems a touch lower than most, so odds are he's sitting closer to 94-95 than 92-93.

So no, we don’t know if it’s an average major league pitch, which is why, if nothing else, he should adjust his slider usage in some situations.

by R.J. Anderson on Jun 24, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As for that slurve

Price made six pitches last night that were noticeably different from the slider, yet pitch f/x has a broad definition of pitch types, labeled those as sliders. Didn’t see the finger spike on those pitches as I only noticed a couple on TV.

It was likely that spike curve but it was in the mph range of that slurve.

by therayspartyleader on Jun 24, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Arbitration clock

Can you tell us how keeping Price in the majors or sending him to the minors would affect his arbitration/free agency clock?

He has the most to gain from a little more fine tuning in AAA. If this also helps our financial matters, that seems to be the logical choice

by Flava Dave on Jun 25, 2009 8:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Founded in 2005. DRaysBay is home to "progressive statistical analysis and reasoned argument."
Start posting about the Rays »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Desert Dogs to play in the AFL championship @ 2:30 EST.
Desmond Jennings Makes the Tops AA-All-Stars
ABC Coalition to Vote on Draft Report Today.
Fan page for Dick Bosman, Rays minor league pitching coordinator
Upton's Struggles vs Lefties
Evan Longoria wins the Silver Slugger Award
09 Minor Leaguers File for Free Agency
Longoria on the MLB 2k10 cover?
Thank you Tim Marchman.
Longo's Slugcon by Location

+ New FanShot All FanShots >


VPs of Baseball Operations

Nando_small R.J. Anderson

Raysring1_small Tommy Rancel

Zorilla_small FreeZorilla

Price_small Erik Hahmann

Ticket Account Executive

Rays_small Steve Slowinski