Evaluating the Ray's Starting Pitching Performance Across Catchers
There has been quite a bit of discussion over the last week regarding how to evaluate a catcher's defense, or more specifically his game-calling. Knowing full well that this is a very difficult task, I decided to at least see if there were any trends. In order to get a read on Dioner Navarro's game-calling, I decided to compare starting pitcher performances when he was behind the plate to that of his backup, Michel Hernandez. At first, I was inclined to look at same pitcher performance across common opponents. The main weakness would be small sample sizes. How do we know what was game calling vs. the pitcher overruling the catcher or simply not having his stuff on a certain day.
Instead I chose to look at the performance of the rotation as an aggregate with Hernandez vs. Navarro. The biggest obstacle here is an uneven sample size of starts. The ace, James Shields had 8 starts with Hernandez vs. only one for Scott Kazmir. Using the aggregate, largely removes quality of offensive opposition since Hernandez typically catches once per series. To offset the discrepancy in number of starts per pitcher, I also looked at each pitcher's aggregate performance with each catcher to confirm any trends. While there are still sample size issues, there do seem to be some clear trends.
Please click below for the findings:
|
Starters |
K/9 |
BB/9 |
HR/9 |
FIP |
HR/FB% |
Str% |
GB/FB |
|
Michel |
7.46 |
1.93 |
1.41 |
4.18 |
13.3% |
65.6% |
0.99 |
|
Navi |
6.53 |
3.94 |
1.15 |
4.68 |
11.2% |
55.8% |
1.04 |
Wow, that's quite a difference. Again, sample size at play, but it could be indicative of the same trends with less magnitude. The staff averages nearly a full strikeout more per 9 innings with Hernandez than with Navarro. They also average two full walks less with Hernandez. The pitchers are throwing almost 10% fewer balls with Hernandez compared to Navarro. On the other hand, perhaps as a result of being all over the plate, more balls are leaving the park with Hernandez catching. All in all, the rotation's FIP is .50 lower with Michel Hernandez. Now let's see if we can find our way around the Shields factor.
|
MH Strt |
DN Strt |
Str% MH |
Str% DN |
GB/FB MH |
GB/FB DN |
HR/FB MH |
HR/FB DN |
|
|
Garza |
3 |
15 |
61.0% |
61.5% |
1.31 |
1.01 |
12.5% |
11.3% |
|
Shields |
8 |
11 |
65.3% |
66.8% |
0.98 |
1.23 |
8.5% |
9.4% |
|
Price |
3 |
6 |
68.4% |
57.6% |
0.6 |
1.07 |
10.0% |
17.2% |
|
Kazmir |
1 |
11 |
66.3% |
60.6% |
0.67 |
0.89 |
16.7% |
11.9% |
|
Sonny |
5 |
10 |
66.1% |
65.2% |
1.13 |
1.21 |
21.9% |
20.5% |
|
Niemann |
2 |
14 |
68.5% |
60.4% |
1 |
0.89 |
17.6% |
4.5% |
There are large gaps in the strike % of Price, Niemann, and Kazmir, largely considered the Rays 3 wildest or most inconsistent pitchers. Every pitcher outside of Garza has thrown for at least 65% strikes with Hernandez. On the other hand, there seems to be a trend of more ground balls when Navarro is catching. I am hoping to do some pitch selection analysis between the two catchers. I included HR/FB to try to capture where the HR numbers may be a bit off. Niemann in particular stands out with only 4.5% HR/FB with Navarro vs. 17.6% with Hernandez. It would seem home runs are the most fluky statistic when dealing with small sample sizes. Now let's look at each pitcher's FIP components:
|
BB/9 MH |
BB/9 DN |
K/9 MH |
K/9 DN |
HR/9 MH |
HR/9 DN |
FIP MH |
FIP DN |
|
|
Sonny |
2.25 |
2.51 |
4.82 |
5.87 |
2.89 |
1.01 |
7.01 |
4.14 |
|
Shields |
1.3 |
2.2 |
7.32 |
5.5 |
0.81 |
1.1 |
3.13 |
4.25 |
|
Kazmir |
1.8 |
5.05 |
9 |
7 |
1.8 |
1.54 |
4.35 |
5.54 |
|
Price |
1.44 |
9.96 |
11.07 |
8.54 |
0.96 |
1.78 |
2.56 |
7.14 |
|
Garza |
4.74 |
3.26 |
9.47 |
7.63 |
0.95 |
1.21 |
3.99 |
4.29 |
|
Niemann |
0.64 |
4.29 |
5.14 |
5.1 |
1.93 |
0.58 |
5.01 |
4.28 |
Again, every pitcher outside of Garza has fewer walks with Hernandez behind the dish. Every pitcher outside of Sonny has a better K rate with Hernandez. The home run stat is split evenly between the two, once again confirming that to be the most unreliable measure with small sample sizes.
In conclusion, there does seem to be a trend of pitchers having better control with Hernandez calling the game. It has yet to be determined whether this has to do with pitch selection or location setup. It does seem to be more than pitchers just not having their stuff, resulting in bad luck for the catcher. On the other hand, pitchers are allowing more home runs with Hernandez. The larger HR/FB% and even split between the # of pitchers with better/worse HR/9 makes this the most likely aggregate trend to work itself out over time. Overall, pitcher performance has been better with Hernandez to date. The K/BB ratio as an aggregate and individually is pretty startling, in my opinion. I will try to get to some pitch selection analysis in the future.
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Very Interesting
while there are some potential gaps you pointed out (pitcher shaking off call, pitches not finding their mark), looks to be somewhat telling.
Is the perception generally held (either before or after this study) that Hernandez can call a better game than Navi? Would we say Hernandez is above average, or could a younger player (Jaso), step in and outperform Navi in this regard?
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Thats the big question.
Is this more an indictment of Navi than a attribute of Michel? I’m inclined to say yes, given the quality of the rotation.
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Wouldn't it also to be relevant to see if this trend occured last year?
That is, games caught by Navarro were slightly – but significantly – worse than those caught by non-Navarro catchers (which I suppose is Riggans, and a start here or there by Jaso/Hernandez).
You could extend this back to Navarro/Paul as well.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 13, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Word.
If Zorilla doesn’t want to do it, I don’t have a problem digging through that much data over a week to see if we can find a “true talent level” for Navi’s game calling.
Advice
I used the fangraphs game log to see which games Michel played. Then I looked up those box scores on ESPN where they have Ground Ball/Fly Ball info (also Pitch results). I compiled those #’s along with each pitchers. You can save time by not including gb/fb. You can avoid the ESPN step.
Use the backup catchers game logs and then deduct them from the pitchers raw #s on Fangraphs. Let me know if you have questions.
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Keep in mind that playing four days in a row may have some attrition influence on the effectivenss of any catcher..
Catching once a week or so would make it much easier to move the feet and smother every low ball.
Just another caveat…
Generally I'd say yes
1) I’ not really inclined to put in this amount of work on a previous year, though it would stregthen/weaken the case.
2) Given the decline in every phase of Navi’s game year over year, I’m not willing to dismiss lack of concentration/preparation as a possibility to what normally would seem like a constant (game calling ability)
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I've read somewhere over the past week
about how it’s tough to qualify/quantify a catcher’s defensive worth to a team (thus its left out), but how do you look at passes balls, runners thrown out stealing, or other components? Are those just surface issues versus deeper issues like not being able to call a game or say no to a 10th burrito in one sitting?
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Passed balls/wild pitches are subjective.
What some scores say is a PB is what most would say a WP, etc. and the problem with CS% is that is doesn’t isolate itself from the pitchers. If you’re working with someone like Pettitte who seems to control the running game, you have a better chance at having a higher CS% than if you’re working with Niemann/Maddux.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 13, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough
this is why I defer to you guys rather than make some half assed attempt at looking into some stats.
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Trying to place a number, or even a range, on catcher's defense is really hard.
The numbers have too much noise to matter and the scouting methods are mostly subjective as well. If we had something like a database of pop times, home to second throw times, and mobility scores, we could probably account for some of it, although that still leaves the ‘intangibles’ part of the game.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 13, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I can see the difficulty in a statistical analysis of catching
so how do GM’s and coaches come to the conclusion that Navi should be starting or that Jaso couldn’t step in and do what Navi does? How do they scout catchers, or is it more offensively based?
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I'm guessing it's more offensively based.
Jaso is apparently really poor defensively at actually catching.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 13, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm assuming he's
worse than Navi, but if they can’t quantify it, is it worth it to give him a shot?
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I wonder if it'd be kind of interesting to apply whatever methodology used for evaluating Navarro and Hernandez -
however limited it might be – and applying it to Jaso’s minor league career.
Given that we know he's better offensively, I would.
But they probably know something I don’t.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 13, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Runners stealing is tough
Niemann has destroyed Navi’s #’s. WP/PB are pretty subjective but can be looked at. Last I checked Navi was well off last years #s on both #s.
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Was there any overlap with Navi/Hernandez
handling the same pitcher against the same team at any point? Probably too small of a sample to make any pointed conclusions.
On a side note, Sonny’s HR/FB% is just awesome (over 20%)
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I'm curious also how the number of pitches thrown differs between Michel and Navvy...
Wouldn’t it make sense that if the Str% is lower with Navvy, there may be more foul balls therefore leading to a higher pich count?
Sign lady must die.
Foul balls count as strikes for the sake of this
Any non-called ball is considered a strike
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Okay. I was reading that as swinging strikes for some reason.
But still, are pitch counts higher with Navvy or Michel? It may be interesting to see the difference in Foul% and SwingStr% between the two. I would imagine that’s more based on the pitcher but it still may lead to which catcher is doing better with what pitchers…
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 13, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Does it make any sense to say that perhaps Michel's #s are enhanced because he always catches the day game after a night game?
Fatigued hitters? Is there any substance there? I looked at the ML splits for day/night and day was just slightly worse, but that’s inclusive of day games without prior night games, too.
So long, Sweet Lime!
He doesn't ncessarily play the day game
Maddon chooses between the prior nights game and the day game, usually based on the handedness of the pitching.
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MH has 43 night AB and 32 day if that helps...
The games he caught were: 6/8 6/13 6/17 6/20 /6/27 7/1 7/8 7/9 7/11 7/12
He's caught more than that.
He’s been behind the dish for 22 starts.
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My bad, going backwards...
April: 15, 19. 25. 30
May: 3,8,14,17,18,19, 23, 27, 30
June: 4, 8 etc…
FOr this sake I counted the game he did not finish as the starter had already been removed.
I did not count the games he relieved as the starters had already either been removed or done most of their work
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Sorry to have doubted...
Shields for 8 starts out of 22 may also have something to do with the lower cERA….
The other games he has caught are pretty inconsistent, but he seems to be a better catcher at home games…
He also caught Garza 3 consecutive times in April and none since. Interesting.
Navi had both Niemann shutouts, but both show a great deal of inconsistency. Or is it the pitchers?
As has been stated, the variables make it very difficult to support any definitive conclusion, we all focus on what we want to see.
How much of this could be attributed to the ability to frame pitches?
There was an article on BTB that I saw that said Zaun was pretty good at framing pitches. Maybe Michel would be higher than Navi on that list. I also recall some people commenting in a GDT that Michel just looked so much easier to pitch to than Navi, but that is kind of subjective.
you forgot to add
“as well as many others” to the end of your comment
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this was going to be my comment
Navi, and I say this in the uneducated way of not citing any actual number, challenges a checked swing less than most other catchers. I have no idea how to judge whether a catcher is doing a good job of framing a pitch, but I’ve seen some guys (Varitek is pretty good at it) who make pitches 3-4 inches outside look good.
Varitek at Navi's age (25) played in one game that season. He is now 37 and hopefully better...
at framing and getting calls. In 15 years iNavi/Tek will be a valid comparison.
Michel Hernandez is 31 and has never had a starting catcher’s job. A little late to be starting a career.
(hide it from matthan then)
I kid………………maybe
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Well technically I really tried to word my posts that I wasn't blaming Hickey
I simply said that the pitchers performed worse in that year than in the other year. I always said it could be due to another variable. And most of the time I pointed out Navi. I’m not a Navi fan so in my mind this could be a very plausible scenario.
rec'd
A couple points
Obviously the discrepancy between who starts for each catcher plays a big part. That being said this leads me to focus on Shields specifically. He definitely seems to pitch better with Hernandez than with Navi. Of course there are some sample size issues. I’d love to be able to go back in time enough to get say 20 starts for each catcher (Navi and the backup). Of course that would be a bit difficult.
Suggestion One
What would be interesting is for you to use the same strategy I used in my Hickey piece (it has nothing to do with HIckey just the statistical principle).
The goal is to see whether there is significant change between two sets of data.
What I would suggest is to line up the Hernandez starts by pitcher and then randomly select a Navi start for each Hernandez start by pitcher (as in Garza for Garza). If you want to you could take away certain outliers, but still try to randomize the Navi part.
And then test to see if the two sets of data are truly significantly different. Just seeing one set of data is higher or lower is nice to know, but isn’t real powerful.
If we can say they are different at say a 95% significance level then we can truly say Hernandez is doing something better than Navi.
Suggestion 2
I’d like to see the pitch types between the two catchers. I know sequence matters, but that is pretty tough to quantify. I’d like to see if the pitches thrown by each pitcher is significantly different based upon the catcher. I’d use the same method I suggestion above.
The power of using significance tests is so we can essentially point out the chance of it being totally random. Having the numbers in your format is really nice and it is a strong starting point. It confirms my suspicions. I do think you need to go one step further statistically to truly hammer it home. The main obstacle is sample size. But perhaps you can go use some Riggans starts also. I’ll help with whatever is needed.
I may not re-read this since it is pretty buried now, so just respond to me in another thread or send me an email or osmething. matthanuf06@gmail.com, the first part is my AIM also
But truly this is what you need to do
Running significance tests on this type of data is very important. A lot of times you’ll think you’ll see increases or decreases but they really aren’t all that different statistically. Of course there are going to be some issues due to sample size (which equates to variability of opponent). But I do think it’ll be very powerful for you to be able to say at a 80% confidence or 90% or better yet 95% confidence level that pitchers do better with Hernandez on the hill.

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