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Around SBN: 2011 In Extreme Home Runs

Mitch Talbot is the Next Edwin Jackson/Jeff Niemann

(Idea via ReasonableDoubt)

Warning, technical jargon ahead.

Minor league options are one of the more tedious aspects of baseball vernacular. Essentially, teams have a limit on the amount of times a player can be sent to the minors without his permission. For the average player, this is three options - not years, but options. Some players, like Scott Kazmir, agree to contract extensions that essentially wipe away any remaining options; this leaves Kazmir in control of his own destiny with his agreement the only thing allowing the Rays to demote him.

Most people assume players can only be sent to the minors and recalled three times total, that's not true. If the Rays were to purchase Tim Beckham's contract in September, and keep him up through the end of the season, they would only use an option when they optioned him to the minors next spring. If they recalled him after two weeks had passed and Beckham remains in the majors for the rest of the season - therefore finishing with less than 20 days in the minors - this too would not count as an option used.

The Rays could demote Beckham in 2010, skip 2011, and send him down in 2012 for some more seasoning and Beckham would still have to frown and head to bus town. If he had five years of major league service time, Beckham could refuse the optional assignment and become a free agent instead. Also worth noting: Beckham would be eligible for a fourth option if he were optioned in each of those seasons but had less than five years of experience in non-short season leagues.  By my count, he would qualify.

Star-divide

Okay, now, let's get to the point. Every season a few fringe players have renewed chances of making the roster because they are "out of options". That means, simply, they can no longer be optioned to the minors without being designated for assignment (giving the team 10 days to trade, release, or place the player on waivers). The last step in that process involves irrevocable waivers, meaning any player with value is going to be claimed; barring a messy contract or crime scene. For those who aren't claimed, they can be assigned to the minors without choice the first time they've been "outrighted", but have the choice to become a free agent either at that date or after the season if they aren't placed back on the 40-man roster.

So, which players are the Rays going to have to maneuver for next spring? Well, first, let's put the obvious ones to rest. Pat Burrell is not going to the minors, neither is B.J. Upton, or Carl Crawford, or whomever else. We're talking about fringe roster types or highly touted prospects that have run into a few hurdles. This year, the big one was Jeff Niemann, last year it was Edwin Jackson, and so on.

By fringe, I simply mean guys who don't seem to have a defined role on next year's team. This doesn't mean they suck nor have no future, it just means there may not be a bench spot or place in the bullpen for them.

Fringe players with zero options remaining entering next season:

UT Elliot Johnson

P Mitch Talbot

P Joe Nelson (some would argue he's a non-tender candidate, I'd agree)

P Lance Cormier

P Randy Choate

UT Joe Dillon

Fringe players with one option remaining entering next season.

C Shawn Riggans

OF Justin Ruggiano

OF Fernando Perez

C John Jaso

SS Reid Brignac

P Jonathan Meloan

(I know some will attempt and argue with who I label as fringe, please don't.)

Mitch Talbot is the big name on that list. Pitchers with 380 Triple-A innings and 3.5 FIP don't pass through waivers. He's unlikely to make the Rays rotation, so the Rays are going to have to decide whether he's bullpen fodder or his best value is derived from trading him for whatever. Assuming he's still with the org through the spring, he's Jeff Niemann 2010 and could be the first real causality to the Rays rotation depth.

Thanks to Cots for spectacular reference material.

Comment 125 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Hopefully we learned our lesson

We either include Talbot as part of a package deal in the coming weeks, or we convert him into a full time bullpen arm.

He isn’t going to a ML starting pitcher for the Rays. Keeping him as a starter and trading him next April is going to net us about a box of rocks.

by matthan on Jul 15, 2009 2:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Obviously Hammel was a victim of this

Gosh, its a quandry. I’m not sure how much value he has for a trade now given his age except for a less developed to a team deeper at AA than AAA. I’m inclined to think bullpen. We will need cheap bullpen arms. I think I missed something. Why is Elliot Johnson out of options? 3 years on the 40 man while in AAA?

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Jul 15, 2009 2:46 PM EDT reply actions  

I am hoping hoping hoping we get a chance to move Wheels for a box of pudding pops

I like Dan, but he makes too much money for our financial constraints and can be replaced. His nice June may have helped the cause.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Jul 15, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with you.

I like Dan more than most, particularly since his introduction of the slider, but he’s an above average reliever at best. He’s got a nice ERA, he’s reasonably priced if you view him as a legit set up guy, but he’s easily replaceable for us. I’m pretty positive either Thayer or Talbot, or both, can do what he’s doing at the MLB level.

by Suttree on Jul 15, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Similar to the "closer"

We can’t afford to pay a premium for a legit “setup man”

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Jul 15, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope we learned our lesson from Hammel

I hope he gets a shot with the team next year and is not moved for something that isn’t worth his value. Even if it means getting rid of a fringe reliever(like Nelson this year) and having two long guys

Kap-rilla???

by Sveet on Jul 15, 2009 3:09 PM EDT reply actions  

We had Hammel as a long guy last year and he wasn't very good.

I don’t think Hammel is an apt comparison with Talbot because he did have chances.

by R.J. Anderson on Jul 15, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Versus last year?

I would say constant work has something to do with it. Also: a regressed HR/FB% and that he’s facing the NLW.

by R.J. Anderson on Jul 15, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know about that.

I think most scouts thought he was a #4-#5 type starter. He’s outperformed that.

by Suttree on Jul 15, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Coming out of AA

Many thought he had #3 upside

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 16, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

That should read consistent work.

But probably.

I’m more disappointed with how that deal turned out than Edwin. Partially because my expectations of Hammel/Niemann were equal.

by R.J. Anderson on Jul 15, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Edwin has turned out to be an top of the line pitcher

However Joyce at least has potential. If he turns out to be an above average RF and Edwin is a #2 pitcher then so be it. We can live with the trade; esp given contract considerations. Sure maybe we could have gotten more, but thats life. With Hammel we essentially just gave him away for nothing. There is literally no upside there. We got totally fleeced on that one.

by matthan on Jul 15, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

eh....

I’m very skeptical on Hammel being all that great.

I dont know, maybe I’m too hung up on past performances (I generally am) but I’m still not going to base the outcome of the trade on 90 innings without even getting a shot to see what aneury has to offer

by Navi's_Navy on Jul 15, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was never as bad as he was made out to be

His biggest problem was that for the past couple years, he was leaving the ball up, and his fastball had flattened out. One would think those problems would get worse, not better, in the Rockies, so it wouldn’t surprise me if this has something to do with a pitching coach or tinkering with his grip.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 16, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

What the hell?

Type Strong
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah, you weren't there for the greatest GDT of all time

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Jul 15, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

LMBO FELL OFF A GUARD TOWER

Type Strong
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Somebody doesn't own a Thesurus

Type Strong
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm a fucking walking thesurus.

My inability to stay sober conflicts with my ability to properly form words and trains of thought, however.

by Suttree on Jul 15, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cool dudes get blasted at 4 pm

Type Strong
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe they just look like John Stamos

Type Strong
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

To me

Type Strong
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because I love John Stamos

Type Strong
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am not interested in finding out what the other two are.

I stopped doing GIS on random things because I get Rule 34’d too much.

I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.

by kericr on Jul 15, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just read through this GDT.

EPIC. Simply EPIC. WOW. I can’t even see any of the images, so it will only be better when I revisit it at home.

by rglass44 on Jul 15, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a shame not everyone was there. Would have been fantabulous.

FUCK MEETING AT THE GAME, LET’S HAVE A DRAYS BAY-LAN PARTY! EVERYBODY WATCHES THE GAME AT THE SAME PLACE, BUT ONLY TALKS VIA GDT!

by Suttree on Jul 15, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's the tragedy
You don’t do shit.

If it weren’t for kericr this place would be an animal house.

by R.J. Anderson on Jul 10, 2009 9:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs

Yet, I missed this GDT after the game started because I decided to spend some extra time working.

Biggest fail I’ve ever had here.

I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.

by kericr on Jul 15, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I find a lot of content in that thread highly suspect. But there was a massive RJ fail. Witness:

FUCK. AND. YES.
 tboraysBTW, it’s "Turn Back the Clock" at Trop tomorrow — all the way back to the ’90s! Legends Roberto Hernandez, Rolando Arrojo to be here
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 10, 2009 4:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

YEAH THAT WAS REALLY GREAT. LETS DO IT SOON.

So long, Sweet Lime!

by PlayOnWords on Jul 15, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nothing major, I think

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Jul 15, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

In the Beckham scenario...

Does he only lose an option since he was in Spring Training? An option isn’t used during September, right?

by tallyray on Jul 15, 2009 4:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Only because there's no way he could be sent back down not within 20 days

If there was a way to call someone up on September 1 and send them down on September 21, it would still use up an option.

And to clarify for Tally (since it wasn’t stated explicitly in the main post), it’s the full season. You can send a guy up and down 10 times in the same season and it still only uses the one option.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 16, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Talbot has never shown as much upside as either of them

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 16, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right.

Talbot has average velocity. Good command. A good off-speed pitch. Okay breaking stuff. Great results.

So, what’s the issue here?

by R.J. Anderson on Jul 16, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

The others had better stuff.

Jackson’s arm is golden. Hammel’s arm is pretty damn good, and his track record is about the same.

by rglass44 on Jul 16, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jackson = Bob Gibson

Hammel = Maddux

Swav or Die
For the lulz

by SRQman on Jul 16, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

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