Mitch Talbot is the Next Edwin Jackson/Jeff Niemann
(Idea via ReasonableDoubt)
Warning, technical jargon ahead.
Minor league options are one of the more tedious aspects of baseball vernacular. Essentially, teams have a limit on the amount of times a player can be sent to the minors without his permission. For the average player, this is three options - not years, but options. Some players, like Scott Kazmir, agree to contract extensions that essentially wipe away any remaining options; this leaves Kazmir in control of his own destiny with his agreement the only thing allowing the Rays to demote him.
Most people assume players can only be sent to the minors and recalled three times total, that's not true. If the Rays were to purchase Tim Beckham's contract in September, and keep him up through the end of the season, they would only use an option when they optioned him to the minors next spring. If they recalled him after two weeks had passed and Beckham remains in the majors for the rest of the season - therefore finishing with less than 20 days in the minors - this too would not count as an option used.
The Rays could demote Beckham in 2010, skip 2011, and send him down in 2012 for some more seasoning and Beckham would still have to frown and head to bus town. If he had five years of major league service time, Beckham could refuse the optional assignment and become a free agent instead. Also worth noting: Beckham would be eligible for a fourth option if he were optioned in each of those seasons but had less than five years of experience in non-short season leagues. By my count, he would qualify.
Okay, now, let's get to the point. Every season a few fringe players have renewed chances of making the roster because they are "out of options". That means, simply, they can no longer be optioned to the minors without being designated for assignment (giving the team 10 days to trade, release, or place the player on waivers). The last step in that process involves irrevocable waivers, meaning any player with value is going to be claimed; barring a messy contract or crime scene. For those who aren't claimed, they can be assigned to the minors without choice the first time they've been "outrighted", but have the choice to become a free agent either at that date or after the season if they aren't placed back on the 40-man roster.
So, which players are the Rays going to have to maneuver for next spring? Well, first, let's put the obvious ones to rest. Pat Burrell is not going to the minors, neither is B.J. Upton, or Carl Crawford, or whomever else. We're talking about fringe roster types or highly touted prospects that have run into a few hurdles. This year, the big one was Jeff Niemann, last year it was Edwin Jackson, and so on.
By fringe, I simply mean guys who don't seem to have a defined role on next year's team. This doesn't mean they suck nor have no future, it just means there may not be a bench spot or place in the bullpen for them.
Fringe players with zero options remaining entering next season:
P Joe Nelson (some would argue he's a non-tender candidate, I'd agree)
UT Joe Dillon
Fringe players with one option remaining entering next season.
SS Reid Brignac
P Jonathan Meloan
(I know some will attempt and argue with who I label as fringe, please don't.)
Mitch Talbot is the big name on that list. Pitchers with 380 Triple-A innings and 3.5 FIP don't pass through waivers. He's unlikely to make the Rays rotation, so the Rays are going to have to decide whether he's bullpen fodder or his best value is derived from trading him for whatever. Assuming he's still with the org through the spring, he's Jeff Niemann 2010 and could be the first real causality to the Rays rotation depth.
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Hopefully we learned our lesson
We either include Talbot as part of a package deal in the coming weeks, or we convert him into a full time bullpen arm.
He isn’t going to a ML starting pitcher for the Rays. Keeping him as a starter and trading him next April is going to net us about a box of rocks.
I still can't believe he gave up a moonshot to Miguel Cairo.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Less.
Blanton had 2 hits all year long last year, including the playoffs.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Also, Blanton's homer came in a game that mattered, Talbot's, while quite embarrasing was more hillarious then soul-crushing.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
That's the crux of the matter.
Miguel Cairo can hit a home run once or twice a season. Joe Blanton, in a crucial game, should NEVER hit a home run.
Still, yes, Cairo can hit a homer once or twice a season. Cairo should never hit a 500ft homer against anyone, ever.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Obviously Hammel was a victim of this
Gosh, its a quandry. I’m not sure how much value he has for a trade now given his age except for a less developed to a team deeper at AA than AAA. I’m inclined to think bullpen. We will need cheap bullpen arms. I think I missed something. Why is Elliot Johnson out of options? 3 years on the 40 man while in AAA?
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Purchased 11/06.
07 – optioned down
08 – optioned down
09 – optioned down
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 15, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
So optioned down means he has a Major League contract right?
B/c he hasn’t been on a 24 man
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
I am hoping hoping hoping we get a chance to move Wheels for a box of pudding pops
I like Dan, but he makes too much money for our financial constraints and can be replaced. His nice June may have helped the cause.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
I agree with you.
I like Dan more than most, particularly since his introduction of the slider, but he’s an above average reliever at best. He’s got a nice ERA, he’s reasonably priced if you view him as a legit set up guy, but he’s easily replaceable for us. I’m pretty positive either Thayer or Talbot, or both, can do what he’s doing at the MLB level.
Similar to the "closer"
We can’t afford to pay a premium for a legit “setup man”
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
I hope we learned our lesson from Hammel
I hope he gets a shot with the team next year and is not moved for something that isn’t worth his value. Even if it means getting rid of a fringe reliever(like Nelson this year) and having two long guys
Kap-rilla???
We had Hammel as a long guy last year and he wasn't very good.
I don’t think Hammel is an apt comparison with Talbot because he did have chances.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 15, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
That's true
but the point is the same. I would rather keep Talbot then the 12th reliever.
Kap-rilla???
Versus last year?
I would say constant work has something to do with it. Also: a regressed HR/FB% and that he’s facing the NLW.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 15, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe scouts were just right... late bloomer perhaps? He was more well-touted from a scouting perspective than Talbot (who I like alot better, mind you)
I don't know about that.
I think most scouts thought he was a #4-#5 type starter. He’s outperformed that.
Coming out of AA
Many thought he had #3 upside
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
That should read consistent work.
But probably.
I’m more disappointed with how that deal turned out than Edwin. Partially because my expectations of Hammel/Niemann were equal.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 15, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Edwin has turned out to be an top of the line pitcher
However Joyce at least has potential. If he turns out to be an above average RF and Edwin is a #2 pitcher then so be it. We can live with the trade; esp given contract considerations. Sure maybe we could have gotten more, but thats life. With Hammel we essentially just gave him away for nothing. There is literally no upside there. We got totally fleeced on that one.
eh....
I’m very skeptical on Hammel being all that great.
I dont know, maybe I’m too hung up on past performances (I generally am) but I’m still not going to base the outcome of the trade on 90 innings without even getting a shot to see what aneury has to offer
He was never as bad as he was made out to be
His biggest problem was that for the past couple years, he was leaving the ball up, and his fastball had flattened out. One would think those problems would get worse, not better, in the Rockies, so it wouldn’t surprise me if this has something to do with a pitching coach or tinkering with his grip.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
12) I love the way he comes up with blog ideas, but when I ask him why he doesn't write them himself, he just responds with a swift backhand to the face.
by Suttree on Jul 15, 2009 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
14) I like how you beat every inch of hilarity out of a joke, much like our sex life.
OOH DOUBLE BURN
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
What the hell?
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Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess I did
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
It was epic.
There were also plenty of ex-girlfriend pictures being thrown out, which is nice for everyone who spends their weekends online, talking about Rays baseball at a stats blog.
Actual RJ Anderson IM:
[15:40] xxxxx: fuck the joos
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
IRL title of my fantasy league:
3 Gifted Jews
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
International Racing League. It was a seperate clause that I failed to punctuate
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah, you weren't there for the greatest GDT of all time
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
I forget which day it was
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
I'll have to take it all in later
TWSS
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 15, 2009 4:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
u will link or join women in lampshade making camp
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 15, 2009 3:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
LMBO FELL OFF A GUARD TOWER
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Somebody doesn't own a Thesurus
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm a fucking walking thesurus.
My inability to stay sober conflicts with my ability to properly form words and trains of thought, however.
Cool dudes get blasted at 4 pm
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
2 of the first 4 results for a Google Image Search of "Cool dude" are John Stamos fyi
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe they just look like John Stamos
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
To me
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Because I love John Stamos
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
John Stamos probably lives somewhere ultra glamorous like Paris or Mars
You live it St Pete troll
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
In all fairness, you aren't bad enough to rescue the President, sooooooooooo
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not interested in finding out what the other two are.
I stopped doing GIS on random things because I get Rule 34’d too much.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Rule 34 being what?
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I keep Moderated Safe Search on while at work
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The overpass you panhandle under doesn't count as a workplace fyi
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I am a fan of anybody who can blast through walls with reckless abandon.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.

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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Send me 8
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
.../waits for joke to sink in
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
That v-card's been punched already slut
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 15, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Just read through this GDT.
EPIC. Simply EPIC. WOW. I can’t even see any of the images, so it will only be better when I revisit it at home.
It's a shame not everyone was there. Would have been fantabulous.
FUCK MEETING AT THE GAME, LET’S HAVE A DRAYS BAY-LAN PARTY! EVERYBODY WATCHES THE GAME AT THE SAME PLACE, BUT ONLY TALKS VIA GDT!
Here's the tragedy
You don’t do shit.
If it weren’t for kericr this place would be an animal house.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 10, 2009 9:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs
Yet, I missed this GDT after the game started because I decided to spend some extra time working.
Biggest fail I’ve ever had here.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I find a lot of content in that thread highly suspect. But there was a massive RJ fail. Witness:
FUCK. AND. YES.
tboraysBTW, it’s "Turn Back the Clock" at Trop tomorrow — all the way back to the ’90s! Legends Roberto Hernandez, Rolando Arrojo to be here
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 10, 2009 4:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
YEAH THAT WAS REALLY GREAT. LETS DO IT SOON.
So long, Sweet Lime!
Nothing major, I think
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
In the Beckham scenario...
Does he only lose an option since he was in Spring Training? An option isn’t used during September, right?
Only because there's no way he could be sent back down not within 20 days
If there was a way to call someone up on September 1 and send them down on September 21, it would still use up an option.
And to clarify for Tally (since it wasn’t stated explicitly in the main post), it’s the full season. You can send a guy up and down 10 times in the same season and it still only uses the one option.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Hopefully whatever we do with Talbot, the result turns out
beter than “the guy in DET” and Hammel
Talbot is a better pitcher than either of them were, so.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 15, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh, Hammel was pretty good in Triple-A.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 15, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Talbot has never shown as much upside as either of them
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Yeah, posting 2.8 and 3 FIP in AA and AAA as a 23/24-year-old doesn't scream upside.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 16, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Right.
Talbot has average velocity. Good command. A good off-speed pitch. Okay breaking stuff. Great results.
So, what’s the issue here?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 16, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
The others had better stuff.
Jackson’s arm is golden. Hammel’s arm is pretty damn good, and his track record is about the same.

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