No Closer Needed: J.P. Howell Is A Bullpen Ace
by Tommy Rancel on Jul 20, 2009 9:00 AM EDT
Email
PrintThe Iceman is becoming more than just a nickname for J.P. Howell; it's becoming the truth. After his ninth save yesterday, Howell is now 5-2 with a sparking 1.97 ERA and a FIP around 2.5. Nope, he was not an all star, he's better. The Iceman has been one of the best relief pitchers period in the American League over the last calendar year.
Using fangraphs.com and sorting by the last calendar year, Howell has the second lowest ERA among all AL relief pitchers. His 1.75 ERA is just behind Joe Nathan. Just to show that J.P.'s numbers are not a fluke, his FIP of 2.68 is fifth best over the same time period. Over the last two calendar years, Howell has surrendered just 32 earned runs in 135 innings.
Even more impressive are the number of batters that have been left frozen after a J.P. Howell at-bat. In his last 78 innings pitched, Howell has struckout 91 batters. His 10.63 K/9 is third best in the AL over the past year. Yep, the soft tossing lefty who tops out at 87-88 has K'd more batter per nine than Jonathan Papelbon, Mariano Rivera, teammate Grant Balfour, and nearly every other reliever in the AL.
Almost as impressive are the free passes or lack there of issued by Howell. In those 78 innings, he's allowed just 28 walks or just 3.23 per nine. He has also excelled at keeping the ball in the yard and has given up just four home runs in his past 74 appearances. In the same time frame, Papelbon has given up five and Mariano Rivera seven. His 0.47 HR/9 over the past year is once again amongst the top 10 in the AL. In fact, did you know that Howell is the ONLY reliever who ranks in the top 10 in each of the following categories: ERA, FIP, K/9 and HR/9, over the last calendar year?
Of course, the reason Howell isn't regarded among the elite relievers is because of his low saves total. As we saw in the Royals series, judging a pitcher's value as a reliever by saves is completely and utterly overrated. Joakim Soria has a lot of saves and is easily the best Royals reliever, yet when the games counted most Soria was not used because it wasn't the ninth inning. Instead of getting the most important outs of the game and meaning a four, five or six out save; Soria sat the whole series and watched three straight eight inning meltdowns. Hat tip to Trey Hillman for that.
Despite the low saves total, Howell has earned a 1.5 WAR, second best in the AL behind Andrew Bailey. We normally do not advocate signing relief pitchers to extensions around here, but J.P. is a bird of a different feather. Signing Howell to a three to four year deal maybe smart giving the fact that he's only 26 and his stuff isn't expected to just decline with age.
No, Howell is not the Rays closer, he's much more; he's their relief ace. Just ask Kansas City. Nine Royals up, nine chilled, that's how the Iceman rolls.
266 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Trey Hillman, moustache aside, is a wonderful example of why Maddon's such a good manager.
Joe makes plenty of blunders, but he would have never left his best reliever go unused for three straight games.
If we're talking extension, I want to bring up something I put some though into last week
It was in this thread:
It’s a good question
As little as possible, but that is unrealistic. He’s making $433,667 this year in his final year of cost control. If you subscribe to the theory of taking FA value times .4 for Arb1, .6 for Arb2, and .8 for Arb3 then you are at 3/8.1. I think that would be a fair deal, but why buy out Arb just to lose him once he’s a FA anyway (see Shields deal) so I think something more like:
Year 1: 1.8
Year 2: 2.7
Year 3: 3.6
Year 4: 5
Option Year 5: 6.5, buyout around 800k
I think this would be incredibly fair and something that you would be getting value across the board. J.P. gets financial security in the event that he stops getting people out or gets injured. So with that model you’re looking at either 4/13.1 or 5/19.6. For a team that seems astute at finding relief gems from year to year this may seem like too much. To this I say scroll up and look at that top-down view and look at his FB/CU/CH movement, to me, that spells death on lefties and righties alike. Lastly, a 5/20 deal is a per year what Affeldt is getting this year to set up. With inflation this would be quite the bargain assuming he maintains this high level. I say go for it.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
JP is the man, but i would like to addanother late inning guy
since the 9th belongs to Howell
His last 10 appearances he has come in the 8th 3 times
7 8th inning appearances in his last 20. If people are cruising there is no need to use him until the 9th.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
but, but , but.....
Balfour is throwing low 90’s the league has Howell figured out
by Raymondo on Apr 15, 2009 4:27 PM PDT
Why are you all in love with Howell and Balfour?
by Raymondo on Apr 15, 2009 4:39 PM PDT
Balfour, Wheeler and Howell are not even close to where they were last season
by Raymondo on Apr 29, 2009 8:12 AM PDT
Howell has a high H/IP ratio and putting the lead man on in the 9th never a good idea
Wheeler, we all muself included saw a regression, not an implosion
Balfour has been simply awful since the ALCS
Percy did his job last night, again i’m not a fan of his
by Raymondo on Apr 29, 2009 9:06 AM PDT
Damm , dirty mother fucking shame tell me agaiin how Howell is better than ’08
by Raymondo on May 6, 2009 7:07 PM PDT
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
he is right in that we do need another late inning guy
i really don’t trust the balf/choate/chadford/wheels quartet to get us through against the Yanks/Sox.
So long, Sweet Lime!
Thats a noninflammatory fairly stated opinion
I tend to disagree. We aren’t seeing the Balfour of April and May anymore. Wheeler is solid to begin innings. While Bradford has bee getting the ball up more than usual, I’m willing to chalk that up to rust. Hes been one of the best groundballers in the game for a long time. A LOOGY is a LOOGY is a LOOGY. Shouse will be back soon.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
My stance on Wheeler has always been I don't like to see him brought in w/ runners on base
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
When he fails, b/c of long balls, he can fail hard
But he always has had a nice K/BB ratio.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I just think there are too many parts. All of those guys need to be good at once to protect a 1-run lead
The only guy who we can pretty well trust to start and end an inning right now is Peez.
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 20, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Wheeler isn't a horrible pitcher
He just isn’t worth the money given the production. We can get okay relief pitching from someone making quite a bit less than Dan.
Too risky to make a move now
He isn’t killing the payroll
He may no tbe killing the payroll
but if we could find a similar player at half the cost, would that be something you’re interested in?
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
We aren’t seeing the Balfour of April and May anymore.
We also haven’t seen the Red Sox and Yanks in months.
by walkoffwalk on Jul 20, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm referring to velocity and walks, not results
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
the league has Howell figured out
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Balfour v Yankees
500 OBP
800SLG
1300 OPS
Well done
lets hope this has more to do with early-season struggles than a troubling pattern.
by walkoffwalk on Jul 20, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
only the brilliant mind of Yuniesky Betancourt saved Balfour yesterday
what other #9 hitter with numbers like his, sitting there 2-0 with the bases loaded v Balfour who has just walked the batter before him swings at that pitch?
No
You are implying that there is no way Balfour could have worked himself out of that situaiton when he has done it time and time again. A 2-0 ground ball is not the only way to work out of a jam.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
you're the statmaster
give me the results he has when the count is 2-0
In 2008 after 2-0
.097/.356/.129
Your wish is my command
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
That's pretty good, maybe he should give them the false hope of a walk every time.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
a 097 BA moves to a 356 OBP?
i’d say a few walks might be invoved
Would you rather him throw a meatball down the middle that Betancourt puts in play?
Is he suddenly supposed to stop trying to attack a hitter’s weaknesses simply because the bases are loaded?
to Betancourt--yes
a walk kills there
no defense against a walk
what’s Yuni’s BABIP?—let him hit it
In 37 career PAs with the bases juiced, Balf has issued 1 uBB
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
me?
2-0 isn’t necessarily going to lead to a walk with the bases loaded
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Yuni has a 3.2% walk rate for his career
That is fucking horrible.
Chances are pretty good he’ll chase no matter the situation.
SO pitchers can get away with walks
Chadford, Cormier, Choate, should not walk a same-handed batter ever
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Sandy are you serious?
you didn’t reason what i saw there?
I wouldn't apply his .356 OBP to all situations
How many of those were with the bases juiced? When you can get a guy to whiff, walks are less harmful, add in that he almost never gives up a long ball, and I would say A walk is not harmful in the least. Bases loaded is a different story, but please tell me how many times Balf has walked in a run.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
True
But odds are still strongly against him walking, and he probably will not see a better pitch to hit.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
But he does, and that is why he is a bad hitter
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Betancourt by count
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
2-0 is his highest OPS, I would say he is looking to swing
nearly every time.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
wow
Kaz/Shields/Garza/Sonny/Price/Davis/Hellickson-necessitate a drool cup or a 7 man rotation
by CubFanRaysaddict on Jul 20, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
i would be willing to bet a lot of cash, most hitters
way better than Betancourt, make him throw a strike
Thats true, but he can recover from 2-1 and get a guy out
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
2-0 is one of the best counts to swing on
Nonetheless, I am glad Betancourt hit into a double play.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Forget it it, you and your little groupies win
have a nice fucking day
reply fail?
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Weak hitters hit ground balls
Weak hitters aren’t patient enough to take a walk. Should he have beared down on the previous batter, instead of issuing the intentional uBB? I walk a guy to face Yuni every day of the week.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Just like he does every pitcher he faces
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Should you throw strikes to a hacker like Yuni?
35% O-Swing this year. Let him make an out on a bad pitch.
I think I have
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Raymondo
The problem is you are assuming that Grant would go down 2-0 against any hitter. Essentially you aren’t factoring in that pitchers throw differently based upon the hitter. If Grant was going against a more patient guy it is far more likely he would have been closer to the zone the first couple of pitches. Yuni hacks so he tried to get him to hack. Sometimes hackers do not hack.
Save your Energy
When hes wound up, reason is useless
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Grant has no clue to where the ball is going, and with the bases loaded, he's
looking to throw strikes
of the 142 PA he’s gone 2-0 51x the hitter has walked, and i’d bet with the circumstances as they were the percentage is higher
How many of those are intentional uBB to face an easier bat?
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, pitchers walk batters who get ahead 2-0 most often when the bases are loaded
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Raymondo
Nobody is saying Grant has the best control. He doesn’t.
However do you agree that pitchers have a strategy based upon the hitter they are facing? Of course the situation also plays a part in the strategy?
or Try to Get Yuni to chase a less hittable pitch- throw strikes
It seems he made a wise choice right?
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
And to make him chase you have to throw a ball out of the zone
If he doesn’t chase then it is called a ball. You understand that right?
2008 vs Yankees
.333 OBP, .708 OPS
Balfour now is pitching (again processes) more like 2008 than he was at the time he faced the Yanks in 2009
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
so we can only look at stats
if the exact same lineups are in place, or exact same situations? I guess we can’t claim we are the defending AL champs since we didnt beat the Yanks with Tex and Swisher. TAKE THE BANNERS DOWN
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Jul 20, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
That’s against 12 batters. Who cares what happened against 12 batters, it’s a mother-f’ing blip.
save the pajama inquiries for teenage girls
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Hit Em with the Bop Gun?
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
George Clinton approves of this message
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Mmmmmbop
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
mmmmm mmmmm mmmmm mmmmm
/close thread
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I want to punch the Crash Test Dummies in their collective face
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Why punch them?
I find clubbing them with a tire iron to me much more soul-soothing.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Tire Iron draws too much blood
You end up covered in the sticky stuff, no thanks, I’d rather break my fist on an eye socket.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Things That Make You Go Mmmm
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
JP's done a bad bad thing
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
twhs
And then he had to clean diapers for 2 years
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
He replied to his own song title
therefore, he is disqualified.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
lmfao
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
glad to hear his velocity has improved. but as far as walks go, that could be results-based...i mean, red sox and yanks walk a lot, so it shouldn't be a surprise if howell has given up more walks against them than the rest of the league.
by walkoffwalk on Jul 20, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Balf's #'s were awful at the start of the season, not jsut against elite teams
9.82 BB/9 in April
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
right, don't panic over a month
You were ready to get rid of every pitcher in our pen
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Not gloating
But the sky isn’t falling. You are so irrational and knee jerk. Its sad.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think anyone is gloating over last year
I think as fans we are/were excited and looking to build on that success, but I don’t think anyone here is saying screw 2009 we’ll always have 2008!
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
That argument also could be used with Howell
The Red Sox and Yankees will just about always beat most relievers relative to how other teams fare. No matter if they are the best reliever in the league or the worst.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Davis for the homestretch
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Satow is probably a AAAA pitcher
And Gorgen isn’t ace anything material. Maybe solid pieces, at best, but Gorgen’s not going to cominate major leaguers. He has one fringe plus pitch and good control, but that’s about it.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
check the dates statman
are you wearing Balfour PJ’s while posting?
That is a nice pair.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice One
When having your own silly statements thrown back in your face, deflect them by talking about pajamas.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
When did the media shift occur?
Can we pinpoint when everyone agreed that JP was good enough to be a closer? Was it this weekend? All the sudden the Howell bandwagon is at capacity. It’s funny what close games can do.
JP is now the closer
I know people here hate the term and they really really really do not want the Rays to have a “closer”, but if JPs role right now isn’t closer then really there aren’t any closers in the league besides Soria.
Plus many of you seem to think the Rays and Maddon are against closers. I hate to break it you guys but we’ve had a closer virtually the entire time Maddon was here. The problem was that he sucked.
Yeah sometimes JP pitches more than one inning, but quite a few closers do that. That isn’t unique.
Lets take a look at his last outings
Past 3-Saves;
4th start ago-came in the 8th, got rocked and yanked (Nelson finished a blow out game)
5th start ago-pitched the 9th inning in a tie game (Rays won in the bottom part); many closers do this
6th start ago-pitched the 9th inning in a tie game; again many closers do this
7th/8th-saves
9th-pitched the 9th inning in a tie game (Rays won in the bottom half)
10th-came on with 2 outs in the 8th with the Rays up 1
11th-pitched the 9th inning in a Rays win
12th-Save
13th-came on with 2 outs in the 8th with the Rays down 1
14th-save
15th-came on with 2 outs in the 8th in a tie game
That is the past 15 outings. He is being used like a closer. Exactly like a closer. In a 9 or 8 inning game he has been the last Rays pitcher in EACH outing. In each extra inning game he pitched the 9th inning.
To not call him the closer is naive. Maddon is most definitely using him well. Many closers are used very well and in the same way JP is being used. Rivera comes in the 8th quite a bit, so does Papelbon. You see Rivera in tie games here and there also (same as Papelbon). The way Maddon is using JP is the way many good managers use their closer.
Just because he doesn’t have the Trey Hillman approach to only use Soria only when up in the 9th doesn’t mean JP isn’t the closer. JP is being used just like many closers in the league.
We are using him very well
I just think it is really naive not to call the pitcher that pitches the 9th inning in every save op and pitches the 9th inning in nearly every tie game the closer. He is just a closer that can toss 2 innings if needed.
Once we start seeing JP in the 6th and 7th inning in high leverage spots, or when you see another pitcher finish close Rays wins then perhaps we can take away the term closer. Although Wheeler is going to get the save tonight since JP is unavailable. But you know what I mean.
I love this optimism
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I love JP and he is pitching great
I just know there is a major phobia against the term closer here. I just wanted to point out he is being used just like many other closers in the league are. We are lucky enough to have our closer be a guy that can throw 2 innings. It is nice to have our best reliever come in every close game in the 8th/9th inning. But that is exactly what a closer is.
Managers like Trey Hillman are not the majority.
Here is the question: If JP couldn’t pitch more than an inning would we have seen him in the 8th inning of those close games? I’d say no. Maddons history does not suggest this.
the phobia about the closer role originates with managers tending to rely on "proven" closers and often don't choose the best ones for the role
based on flawed stats like saves and ERA. it just so happens that JP is the Rays’ best reliever and is used in tight, late-inning situations. i don’t think the closer label would be much of an issue if it wasn’t awarded undeservedly.
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 20, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
And yes I picked up Wheels for my fantasy team today
I figure its an easy save. The Jays are off so I had an open spot with Downs not being able to pitch. Wheeler is a solid option tonight if anyone is looking for a cheap save.
You have to go all the way back to June 6th
To find a 9 inning game where JP was not the last Rays pitcher (besides the Oak game where he got rocked). At that point there was a dramatic shift in roles for JP Howell. He became the Rays closer.
Funny you mention June 6th.
Isn’t that about the same time the Rays bullpen started dominating? Why use JP in the 6th or 7th when Choate, Balfour, and Wheeler were getting the job done? If these guys hadn’t been performing then you would have seen JP in earlier. Seeing him in the closers role the past month and a half is due more to the success of the bullpen as a whole rather than Maddon wanting to name JP the closer.
Representin' the West Side of Mulberry!
Well then why not use Choate, Balfour and Wheeler in the 9th if they are pitching so well?
Honestly I just don’t see how your point relates to the fact that JP has been the last pitcher the Rays have used in every one of his outings for over a month and a half. If that isn’t a defined role I have no idea what is.
I can care less whether the Rays name someone a closer. What matters to me is the innings and the situations he is brought in. JP has been utilized exactly like a closer the past month and a half.
When Maddon was first hired, wasn't he big on every member of the bullpen having established "roles," or am i mis-remembering?
If he was hired and wanted established roles, it is refreshing to see he has an open mind.
I think there are established roles
The key is they are not defined by innings, but by situations. Thats the problem most associated with the title closer. Theres also the issue of many teams not having a guy good enough to be handed a closer role, but they choose to forcefeed it to a guy anyway vs bullpen opitmization.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
right...our bullpen guys have roles, but it's based on situations...not a "7th inning guy, an 8th inning guy, and a closer."
THANK G-D.
by walkoffwalk on Jul 20, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the evidence doesn't bear that out
The Rays are very much like other teams. Percival was the closer. Howell is now the closer. Wheeler has been the 8th inning guy for awhile. And the other pitches mix and match. It really isn’t much different than other teams. It really just comes down to talent.
It was a little more rigid when percy was the closer
but by and large you are right. Hes a flexi-closer.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
The only difference is that Howell can pitch 2 innings
Other than that Percy and Howell have the exact same role.
I know we like to think of the Rays as some revolutionary team
But really our bullpen usage has been poor over the past couple years. We’ve gotten by on talent. We had freaking Troy Percival as our closer. I know the argument around here was that we used our better relievers in more high leverage situations and we just threw Percy back there. I get that and it makes sense. However now we are using our best reliever in the exact same role that Percival held, so that argument goes out the window.
For example...
Prior to June 6th Howell was rarely the last pitcher to throw in his outings. After June 6th he is always the last pitcher to throw in his outings as long as it doesn’t go extras.
There is literally no way anyone can argue he is being used the same way. There is just no way all the high leverage situations suddenly went from earlier in the game to the 9th inning magically on June 6th and after all the Rays “traditional” closers went on the DL.
You are right
He’s not a 9th inning closer. Hes earned it though. The Rays would have used a committee as they do with the setup role when most teams do have an 8th inning guy.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
This entire debate of "Is he a closer? is he not a closer?" is ridiculous.
He’s a relief ace. If you want to call it a closer, if you want to call it a fireman, if you want to call it Jackleg Picasso, it doesn’t matter. He’s a relief ace, and thankfully we have a manager intelligent enough to use him as such.
It really isn't that special to have a manager use his best reliever at the end of games
Most teams do that. In fact we were one of the only teams not to do it. Thank God Maddon finally saw the light.
I agree there is no need to argue semantics. I’m just glad Maddon finally figured it out.
I was going with chiller or cooler
but Jackleg Picasso has a better ring to it.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
But yeah we can call him a relief ace
There are just like 20 other ones in the league that are used in the same way. The public calls them closers, but we can call them relief aces. Doesn’t matter to me. I just don’t want people thinking the Rays are doing anything different than other teams because that is definitely false.
i bet you're a real prick to play scrabble with
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 20, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
But you agree on the "setup man"
If JP was not the quality he is, we would be closer by committee
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Possibly
We’ve tried Percival at closer with stints by Wheeler and Izzy the past couple years. It is hard to see the evidence that we’d go to a committee. Maybe in the short term. However it definitely is pretty clear Maddon likes to have a 9th inning guy. Right now it is JP Howell. I’m okay with that. If we want to call our guy that comes in the 9th inning a relief ace whereas we call Rivera, Papelbon, Downs, Nathan all closers then so be it. All of those pitchers, including JP, have the exact same role.
ALCS?
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
What about it?
Price was essentially named the closer and he performed that role. I’m not saying the Rays always have one closer, but rather the Rays have always had one. The only reason we haven’t kept the same guy is because of performance or that they are fat and constantly get injured. It isn’t because the Rays don’t want a closer.
He pitched 2/3, 1/3, and 1.1 IP in that series
non-traditional
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess it depends how you define traditional
Maddon certainly played matchups more when he had no pre-set favorite closer. However when he does have his favorite he uses them the same way many managers use their closer. Percival was used like the “traditional” 9th inning guy.
Howell is being used like many other closers. I know many people here think “traditional closers” throw only the 9th. That just isn’t true.
Many closers throw more than 1 inning. JP probably does it a bit more than most, but other than that he is pitching in the exact same situations as say Mariano Rivera. There is literally no difference in situations. Would you call Rivera a closer?
None come in mid-inning in the 9th
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
And neither does Howell
You can’t really use a couple games sample size when the Rays didn’t have their closer the entire year (who never came in mid 9th inning) as roof that Maddon is unconventional.
He also did this with Percy's infamous 1 out save this year
I do think its a case of Howell has earned his trust as the unchallenged highest leverage pitcher
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
But this is my point
You are essentially saying Percival was the Rays high leverage pitcher last year and the start of this year. That isn’t exactly a strong mark for Maddon is it?
Agreed 100%, I was in that camp for a long time
I still think there were photos involved
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 20, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Would you say this has more to do with the increased confidence in the other options?
I would think he would prefer to bring in Balf, Choate, Wheels when they are doing well, but if everyone else is running cold, I don’t think he would hesitate to use JP in the 6th or 7th if the situatino dictated.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
He may
But I doubt it. Given the fact that Maddon has always had a predefined closer, although than the playoffs last year, I’d find it very unlikely that he would suddenly switch it up.
I’m not saying Maddon is as stubborn as Trey Hillman. Not saying that at all. But rather he uses Howell the same way Papelbon or Rivera is used. There is nothing wrong with that.
Howell is just the same as the other closers that can throw multiple innings
He has taken over the job. If last night’s game took place at the start of the year Howell would have thrown in the 7th or 8th inning with Percival in the 9th. We all know that.
thats more like a word
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 20, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd prefer an amphibious bullpen, but that's just me
Support the Type Strong Movement, Like This Little Lady Does
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 20, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Good thing we have an all-caucasian bullpen
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
it'd have been easier if they weren't
magic wand tool would have worked better methinks
I could be wrong though
by staplemaniac on Jul 20, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha, this is the worst thread
Support the Type Strong Movement, Like This Little Lady Does
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 20, 2009 11:28 AM EDT reply actions
You leave my wingman alone.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
No
You can be mine
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't promote racism sorry
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
First: "Hangin' with the boys" post
Support the Type Strong Movement, Like This Little Lady Does
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 20, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
lister to her HOWELL and roar
Support the Type Strong Movement, Like This Little Lady Does
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 20, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, I'd have to say that the "Longo didn't sign me an autograph" thread can take top billing for 'worst active thread' right now; this one's giving it a run for it's money though.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
He looks like a burn victim now that I see a bigger pic
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not his writing that got him banned, it was him being a dick. I don't think he realizes that yet (or ever).
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Discuss
I’m 18 and just graduated high school. When my college decisions came in in April, I narrowed down my choices to Dartmouth and Princeton and had no idea what to do. Whether it’s teenage indecision or my relative laziness, the only thing I could think of was your pure hatred for Princeton. So I chose Dartmouth. You, Bill Simmons, made the biggest decision I have ever made. Most likely, you will be responsible for whatever shenanigans I go through in life. Just wanted to let you know and say thanks.
Swav or Die
For the lulz
OH MY GOD, THE HORROR OF HAVING TO CHOOSE BETWEEN DARTMOUTH AND PRINCETON
Like it makes a bit of difference in the log run for him.
Princeton is way harder.
Hardest of the Ivies I hear because they had a massive grade deflation push a few years back.
rglass basically reveals that he is a gilmore girl
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 20, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Save the Gilmore Girls for teenage girls
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you call that Wing Slut yet?
pussy
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, left VM, no callback (so far, or probably at all)
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
You waited too long, call her back in like 2 days like WTF I thought you were cool
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn't matter. Getting women's phone numbers has never been my problem.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
It's not the going that I'm concerned with,
It’s the coming.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I always tell the girls, 'you're gonna love my nuts.'
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
If you do, just loop Goodbye Horses until it beeps off
They love that shit
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Would you fuck me, I'd fuck me
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
JP NEEDS to come out to this.
If not, I’m just gonna start trying to get the crowd into it.
GOOD BYE HORSES
THEY’RE COMING AFTER YOU
GOOD BYE HORSES
THEY’RE RUNNING, RUNNING, RUNNING, OVER YOU
And you bet your ass I just turned that shit on at work.
Instead of the fist pump he could rub his nipples
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
JP would do it less homoerotically
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
My friends and I thought he should come out with a cape on, do a little strut, have a laser light going on while he warms up to Goodbye Horses, reverberating through the greater chasms of Tropicana Field.
I’m not sure the opposition is going in the batter’s box after that.
Or a female SO, i guess
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 20, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Another important fact to remember: Princeton, NJ is a fucking 3rd world slum
Support the Type Strong Movement, Like This Little Lady Does
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 20, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Its actually a pretty nice town.
I had a friend from college who was from there, and I was shocked when I saw it.
100% disagree
Support the Type Strong Movement, Like This Little Lady Does
Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 20, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm a Rutgers student and supposed to hate Princeton
but it’s a nice town.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 20, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you for not killing Ray Rice.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
What?
Schiano tried his hardest, but I guess when your options are hand it off to Rice or let Mike Teel throw, it’s easy.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 20, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
We did the same with Kevin Smith and they both seem the better for it after last season.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Huck it, chuck it, football
I like Zack and Miri as well as a lot of his other work. Kevin Smith the running back is a GD beast and the only thing the Loins have going for them.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
At least they didn't draft a WR #1 overall this time.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Princeton is an upscale mid-NJ town
There’s nothing slummy about it.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I can relate so much.
Except swap ‘princeton’ and ‘dartmouth’ with ‘Community College’ and ‘USF’
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Is it weird looking back I wish I went to MCC for the first two years...
almost
Swav or Die
For the lulz
Aren't those essentially the same?
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
On the bright side...
Leavitt is finally making his players go to class. Previously if they were caught missing a bunch of classes they just had to run. Now if they miss 5 classes they miss a game.
What happens if they fall off a cable car?
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Dirty little secret
At least in my line of work, no one really gives a damn how nice a college you went to. They just care if you have a degree.
Shit, SRQ was telling me the last time that he worked a glory hole they didn't even care if you had a GED
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I work in communications.
The only time I think where you went to college really matters is if you’re doing something in academia or if you’re in a field that requires tons and tons of schooling, like a lawyer or a doctor.
Not sure what you mean by "communication"
Going to Dartmouth/Princeton, though, would be very helpful in getting a job on Wall Street or most other top earning occupations.
While somewhat true...
getting degrees from places like Princeton or Dartmouth open lots of doors that would be otherwise closed. A Princeton man will always hire a Princeton man given the choice. The renown aside, graduating from Ivies definitely helps to set you apart and really helps with networking.
/No idea why we are discussing the relative merits of Ivies vs. whatever…
This is pretty much my experience as well.
Maybe in some professions it doesn’t matter, but I think it still holds a low of weight in others and, of course, opens up doors that might otherwise be closed.
by RaysTheRoof on Jul 20, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Tution, though, is one big thing.
If I could do it all over again I would have gone to UF, pocketed 200k, and then just gone to grad school right after undergrad. I think my experiences at college were better than they might have been had I just followed the rest of my HS friends to UF.
Must be nice to be in your line of work
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Jesus Christ you people talk too much.
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 20, 2009 12:04 PM EDT reply actions
Thierry Henry is worth every penny that he is paid.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
You remember that scene in Bruno where he pantomimes making out, blowing, and rimming out Milli?
That’s what PlayOnWords does at night, thinking about Thierry.
A ridiculous comparison!
Henry is still alive.
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 20, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
don't think i wasn't turned on by that scene.
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 20, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Where can I get a KEY to all of the initials you guys use.....
for all of these statistical catagories such as BABIP, WOR… ect.?
Not linking in the title would be better
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
ok
http://www.draysbay.com/2009/1/26/736782/the-draysbay-stats-guide
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Please read our Community Guidelines.
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recent FanShots
DRB Suggestion Box
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
