7/22 Post-Game: Tampa Bay Rays @ Chicago White Sox
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 22, 2009 11:05 PM EDT
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| Player | WPA |
| Shields | 0.324 |
| Nelson | 0.055 |
| Choate | -0.07 |
| Wheeler | -0.513 |
| Gross | 0.183 |
| Zobrist | 0.069 |
| Navarro | 0.05 |
| Burrell | 0.04 |
| Crawford | -0.014 |
| Kapler | -0.059 |
| Bartlett | -0.101 |
| Pena | -0.102 |
| Upton | -0.144 |
| Longoria | -0.219 |
| Diaz | -2 |
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Comments
Go ahead and blame Laz Diaz
But Upton has to make the catch and our offense has got to effing wake up at some point. In our last 20 games, we’ve scored 6 or more runs twice, and more than 6 once.
www.raysprospects.com
Actually, blame some on Pena not coming off the bag to get it.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 22, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
But that was a pretty bad throw regardless, he missed by like 3 feet
by Transplanted on Jul 22, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
If I may
that error didn’t really influence anything because Ramirez would have ended up on third anyway.
by Daniel Berlyn on Jul 22, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
My biggest problem was that Bartlett didn't seem to field it with the sense that Podsednik had speed
by Transplanted on Jul 22, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
He doesn't get him either way
it would have been a top play of the year if he does. I guess this is one of those times where Upton playing shallow burns you.
by Daniel Berlyn on Jul 22, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Forced errors.
It’ll be the new moneyball stat three years from now. You watch.
Can’t help but feel the Sox stole that one. Yes that pitch was a miss, but Diaz is inconsistent for both sides all the time. He certainly isn’t one of those that helps my stance on umpiring. To be fair, Jenks was getting squeezed last night. We’ll call it even, yeah?
by Daniel Berlyn on Jul 22, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
And Richard didnt get an extra half a plate
on the outside corner to righties last night? cmon dude
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 23, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
At the risk of getting verbally mauled
I don’t see why everything has to be against the Rays. We’ve had two bad umps in a row. Both of them made bad calls against both teams. I was as surprised that the Sox won tonight as when they lost last night. Both teams played sloppily enough in the late innings to lose in their respective losses. Besides, Richard hardly got an inside corner. My claim is as valid as yours without any evidence. No reason for sour grapes.
by Daniel Berlyn on Jul 23, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
It's called 'fan bais'
Stop trying to be so balanced. Act like a normal fan and pretend that MLB is conspiring to ensure that YOUR TEAM doesn’t make the playoffs.
I’m pretty much right with you BTW. The Rays gave today’s game away just as the Sox gave yesterday’s game away.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Bi...as?
I was very upset earlier in the year when the Sox lost a game against the Tigers due to two calls, one was a play at the plate that would have won the game. It wasn’t nearly as laughable as the one that ended the game against the Twins the other night, though. We’re all like that. No worries.
by Daniel Berlyn on Jul 23, 2009 4:07 AM EDT up reply actions
That Twins play was bad, but the Ump didn't look like he was in good position to make that call though, which why I usually think a call gets blown.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
If Pena knocks it down, the inning still continues
If Upton makes the read and catches the ball, the inning ends.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 22, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
That just cost 2 advanced bases, it was an unfortunate infield hit
The following debacle of an AB would have driven both runs in regardless.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
It's actually an actual possibility
He’s 0-1 in his last 6 starts, the Rays are only 3-3 in those games
by Transplanted on Jul 22, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but it's bad that Boston is due for a run & we're not gaining enough ground
Tonight’s loss was a bad one
by Transplanted on Jul 22, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
They lost 5 in a row
Meaning they’ll win 5-6 in a row probably soon
by Transplanted on Jul 22, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
and we won't?
we had the #1 offense in baseball until the recent slide, the best bullpen in the AL, and our pitching is finally starting to come around to what was expected of them. If anyone is due for a hot streak it is us, we should feel luck we have stolen what we have post ASB.
I doubt it.
Unless the offense explodes soon, we’re in trouble
by Transplanted on Jul 22, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know what to believe anymore
All that I know is that in games where the Rays score under 4 & 5 runs, don’t end well
by Transplanted on Jul 22, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't blame Wheeler, don't blame BJ, don't even blame Diaz
What the hell is up with the offense? Scoring 3 runs off some newbie triple-A pitcher?
Not just Torres
They’re not scoring runs at all.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 22, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
The Rays have one player that can be counted on
That’s Zobrist. He’s the only one I’m comfortable batting in a key spot. Crawford’s up there, but Pena, Longoria, Upton have just looked poor lately.
I’m sure the numbers say differently.
Outside of CC & Zobrist & PtB
I’ve seen almost no production from the offense. Even JB is hitting like .220
by Transplanted on Jul 22, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Too many Freeswingers at the top of the order
BJ, Longo, Pena only know one way to swing, the fence. Try putting the ball in play sometimes, ever heard of a bunt? Ever heard of small ball? Ever heard of hitting behind the runner(s)?
by Daddysflying on Jul 22, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm sure they never have, maybe you should sign up to coach next week, don't forget the orange slices
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 23, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure doesn't look that way to a fifty year baseball fan
kids…
by Daddysflying on Jul 23, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
You're just afraid to sign up to coach because you think you'll end up working the concession stand.
Go the distance.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 23, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't know what your problem is
There’s no need to be rude. These kids are prima donnas who don’t understand or respect the fundamentals of the game. Even you can see that.
by Daddysflying on Jul 23, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
His problem is that I just banned someone for thinking that their age entitled them to be smarter then everyone else. I'd prefer not to do it again, so put that 50 years of experience bullshit in your pocket and make your point a different way.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
You don't have to
It’s obvious you people aren’t real baseball people. I did make my point, and any child who thinks that experience isn’t important is just another fool. Goodbye. I’ll go back to my beloved Sawxheads where experience and baseball knowledge is appreciated. Not jerks who just make personal attacks.
by Daddysflying on Jul 23, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Who made a personal attack ya stupid fuck?
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 23, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Dammit man I wanted to hear him inundate us with more I'm better than you because I'm older, but I have to ride
this ridiculous scooter around Wal-Mart when I’m buying by Depends bullshit.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 23, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I contemplated it, but I need to go to bed, not argue with self-entitled fucksticks on the intertron
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 23, 2009 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
You guys ran him out fast.
I could be wrong though
by staplemaniac on Jul 23, 2009 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Also, you are not a real baseball people you child.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 23, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Ever heard of a bunt? Ever heard of small ball? Ever heard of hitting behind the runners?
You sound like the one with a problem. I’m calmer than you are. What makes you think they are prima donna’s? They don’t beat their wives like Teddy Ballgame or get drunk and fuck a bunch of faceless whores like the Mick? Bunting is generally a bad idea. It always pisses me off when people say things like, “Oh well they should just play small ball, then everything will be fine.” That is a crock of shit. Earl Weaver would not stand for this conversation he would already be up to your waist screaming at your belly over this. It takes two to tango when hitting behind a runner. If a righty is up with a guy on second, do you think he is going to get anything on the outer half of the plate? The White Sox are a very well coached team, I know Ozzie wouldn’t let them see a pitch on the outer half in that scenario once over a 4 game series. Sometimes you just have to tip your cap to the other team and not act like its the end of the GD world.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 23, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
eff halladay/lee
let’s get a bat. i want to win how the yankees do.
bartlett/davis/hellboy/barnese for Tulo
Yeah, Colorado will trade away their franchise player with a wildcard lead.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 22, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Good to see you in the evolved stage of baseball discussion.
You were one that stuck with the team way back when they were the D-Rays.
by Daniel Berlyn on Jul 22, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
In before everyone else at this site
because (most) people here were fans then too.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 22, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, but you had to deal with everyone... there.
I don’t know how long you’ve been here, anyway.
by Daniel Berlyn on Jul 22, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I comment sporadically.
Mainly in the minor league/prospect threads though.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 22, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
where would we put said bat
other than C we are fine at all other positions. People seem to forget we have a top 3 offense in baseball. We aren’t going to score 5-6 runs every single night, it’s called slumps teams have them.
i have no idea
I feel Bartlett is falling back to earth real quick tho.
I’d actually bring Briggy up now
oh no .284, that sucks
my guess is his OBP is a good amount higher and while not playing great defense, it’s still pretty good.
Are you brain dead?
with the shit you have in that line up right now, you want to replace one of the few who’s hitting?
No no no
It’s all starting pitching now…bats are there, but nobody will tell ’em to just hit and not hit for the fences
by Daddysflying on Jul 22, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Want an answer? July not including tonite
210/290/596 0 HR
172/254/633 3 HR
146/333/583 1 HR
That would be nice
To not be trailing in the 8th inning in the last 8 games
by Transplanted on Jul 22, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Dear Andrew:DO NOT BUY HIGH FOR LEE OR HALLADAY
Unless they can throw a CG SO everytime out it’ll do no good
They only need to go 8IP
JP is there for the 9th
by Transplanted on Jul 22, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
If they drop another couple of games out of contention
…I’d pass on a star starter.
by Daddysflying on Jul 23, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
A few thoughts
1. JP Howell is our closer. He is not a ‘bullpen ace’. The Rays have pretty much always used a closer. Right now Howell is an elite closer. He will be the last Ray to pitch in 9 inning games. Simple as that. If you want to call him a bullpen ace then call Rivera, Papelbon, Nathan, Bell, etc bullpen aces. They are no different and will be used no differently than Howell. This is what I said a few days ago and todays game confirms it
2. Drop Dillon for some speed. Having Navarro run in the 9th is a disgrace. This is a problem with the platoon in RF; it forces you to use an extra roster spot. It would be okay though if we got rid of Dillon and got some speed
3. Upton had a bad game obviously although I don’t really blame him for missing that ball. It is a tough play that he makes more times than not.
4. I’m okay with Longo swinging on 2-0 there even though Thornton was a bit wild. Pena is a virtual guaranteed K vs Thornton
5. Our offense is way too inconsistent and I think a lot of it has to do with unproductive outs. When we aren’t hitting home runs we have to string together tons of hits (other than when CC or BJ steals).
6. Our offense again sucks vs a bad pitcher. For some reason we suck vs horrible pitchers. It is strange. Now somehow we will beat Buerhle and Halladay
I agree with most everything you said especially the Dillon part.
I really see absolutely no good reason why Dillon has a roster spot over Elliot Johnson. What Dillon has in hitting over EJ, EJ has in speed and I see a lot more important spots for PR’s like tonight than we do where Dillon would need to PH. I also agree with Howell, for as much as Maddon always talks about never having a closer, we always seem to have one. Whether it be Percy, Wheeler, or now Howell. We “don’t have a closer” but the same guy comes in the 9th inning unless he is unavailable. That being said, Wheeler has pitched well for most of the season after an awful start and I agree with letting him face Ramirez, if it got to Thome than go to Howell.
That's reasonable
Better than saying Dillon sucks because nobody’s heard of him or saying Dillon is completely useless. EJ can play all the same positions, correct?
Your source for replacement level commentary
3, and 4
3. Upton has a bad attitude and does not situation hit very well. Only fences for him
4. Same with Longo, only long balls in his repertoire; he needs to hit behind runners and let Navi get home, tie the game, etc.
6. Rays have seen a lot of rookie pitchers looking to make a mark and too naive to know their in the big time.
by Daddysflying on Jul 23, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
an extra roster spot
to get another Joe Dillon, you know, because he has been so useful. Don’t be taking shots at the platoon. I’d rather see someone like Thayer or Sonny up in the bullpen, we don’t need another bench position, we can just get rid of Dillon for more speed if you wish, as you said.
I didn't take a "shot" at the platoon
I just stated a basic fact. When you use a platoon you are taking up an extra roster spot. That is the downside of the platoon. If platoons had no downside you’d see one for every team at every position not manned by Albert Pujols. Alas they take up a valuable commodity; a roster spot. Of course one platoon on a team isn’t going to make or break a roster as long as all of the other spots are used efficienty. Currently the Rays roster is not efficient due to Joe Dillon. Hiring a really fast Afro American or Jamaican would be more efficient pinch running would add more of a win probability than Joe Dillon ever could. Once every couple games we have a really slow guy on base late in the game of a close game. Throw in Usain Bolt in that situation and things are a bit different. Keep Navarro in because we must have the useless Joe Dillon and we are stuck going station to station.
I know we look at “wins” in a much larger context than actual wins and losses. However if we had a fast guy to pinch run for Navi in the 9th we very likely could have tied the game. One stolen base isn’t worth a win in statistical measure, but it could be worth a couple wins in the column that really matters.
's funny to watch people freak out over a game like this, but seem like we're a lock for the playoffs after a game like last night
I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer to drink WAY too much of it.
by stpetelawyer on Jul 22, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Upton is killing this team in the leadoff, sans June
less than 290 OBP in July
Beej is probably my favorite Ray, but it's hard to argue your point.
He has all the talent and the tools, but he has not been a good leadoff hitter this year. I don’t know why, because I do not believe for a minute that he is not capable of leading off, but he simply is not getting it done.
I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer to drink WAY too much of it.
by stpetelawyer on Jul 22, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I've been argueing for moving Bartlett to the top of the order for a few days now
while he has dropped off a bit, I think he gives us what we expected out of BJ (minus the power) and BJ moving down to 2 may put some pressure off of him.
he's the only one willing to take pitches
Bartlett is terrible
22 BB last year
20 so far this year
we lead the league as a team in pitches per AB
I seriously doubt Zobrist is the only one who is willing to take pitches.
we do but somehow we don't work walks
i’m only saying Zo to lead off, cause we have nobody else, but i doubt it happens
i’d bet BJ is one of AL lowest OBP in that role
Why don't you think Bartlett will work as a lead-off hitter
Bartlett gets on base, don’t blame him for getting hits instead of walking.
His BA is unusually high
and do to fall off
the fact he doesn’t walk makes him hnlikely for the lead off
we thought June was a breakout, but July is more like April and May
Who is the real BJ?
Agree
BJ to 2 for a lot of reasons, but CC leadoff. He’s much more able to put the ball in play.
by Daddysflying on Jul 23, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
What happened to the Rays Way?
CC is a team player; he needs to be the leadoff hitter if he wants to get back to the post season.
by Daddysflying on Jul 23, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
kids nowadays
you must have a mug with this saying on it. it’s probably on yr doormat as well.
i bet yr children probably made you a shirt with it written in glittery gold “wavy/ghetto/childish” font.
CC is a not good as a leadoff hitter
Or at least he’s not suppose to be
by Transplanted on Jul 23, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
the AB that really fried me was the bases loaded pop out
on a 1-0 count v a rookie SP on a piych at his foot
That was a pretty bad AB
being aggressive is one thing. But that was plain stupid
by Transplanted on Jul 22, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
This night sucked
Not only did the Rays lose a bullshit game, but I also found out that my roommate for the next year is a hardcore yankees fan. What a fantastic day.
hey i have one of those!
Just go through your day like this: 1. ignore him/her if you’re playing each other. 2. cheer and drink up when anyone plays against the Red Sox. 3. Laugh at Baltimore and Toronoto (only good for 2 years). 4. Repeat.
Blog: www.lostinsoxcountry.com
Thanks
I’ll make sure to remember your advise come August
by PepeSilvia7 on Jul 23, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Did Balfour piss in Maddon's cornflakes?
Let me get this straight. Runners and 2nd and 3rd, two out, and Bradford is the go-to guy? And when he can’t go, Wheeler is the alternate?
I had a look at the career stats and while I had visions of Alexei Ramirez swinging blindly and Balfour fastballs, the reality is that he’s 0 for 2, no strikeouts. Still, that’d be enough reason for me to bring in the guy who USED TO BE the relief ace for this team. (For shits and giggles, Jermaine Dye is 0 for 6 with 4 K’s against Balf)
…. sure I’m biased but gimme a break. That’s about as key as it gets and Dan Flyball Wheeler is not the guy you want on the mound.
I think that is the part of this that people are forgetting.
why was Bradford going in? I actually really like Wheeler in that position and who knows with a proper warm up things may have been different.
cooled off...
(it only takes a few minutes now in my old(er) age)
Ramirez and Dye are 0-2 and 0-5 against Wheeler so history doesn’t show much of a split between Balf and Wheeler. And Wheeler got robbed on strike three of course, so I should give him that.
It really is the Bradford move that was the more puzzling, you’re right.
by AussieGriff on Jul 22, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
Wheels has been a bit more consistent of late, and, for that matter, so has Grant. But he still makes me nervous…
by Daddysflying on Jul 23, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
When Wheelz fails, he fails hard
Last ngiht wasn’t his fault but he still ended up with a -.504 WPA. The longball risk makes it a Balfour situation.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Balfour
is a head case. Wheels got the strikeout to end the inning, Diaz didn’t see it that way. Let’s get real.
by Daddysflying on Jul 23, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
July basic offensive numbers
Upton-.210/.290/.306
Crawford-.278/.371/.352
Longoria-.172/.254/.379
Pena-.146/.333/.250
Zobrist-.351/.439/.474
Burrell-.218/.318/.436
Gross-.241/.333/.345
Navarro-.300/.344/.500
Bartlett-.260/.362/.360
That’s some offense there
Excluding the TEX start by Price
The SP has been good or good enough to keep them in the game. Now the RP has been bad more than good except JP
by Transplanted on Jul 23, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Who's we?
You never post about anything.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 23, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
If CC could be a little more like Ichiro
That’d be awesome
by Transplanted on Jul 23, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
No shit he's one of the 10 best players in the AL when healthy
How deep did you have to dig for that name?
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 23, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
This game was total bullshit. So much fail everywhere.
2009 Rays Baseball: Still Kings of the Sunshine State
holy shit
When did the site get overrun by idiots? Teams lose games. Chill the fuck out.
by rglass44 on Jul 23, 2009 12:23 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
This so fucking hard
In 5 months it will be 2012 and the world won’t end then either.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 23, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
the ump bitching is a bit much
We lost that game not laz the spaz.
by rglass44 on Jul 23, 2009 12:26 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Are you at the game or the bar?
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 23, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I saw below that those two locations were mentioned I wasn't sure if you could mobile comment from anywhere else
Thanks for clearing that up
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 23, 2009 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree, but that ump blew that pitch at the worst possible time. He called a pitch in the same location a strike in the first pitch of that AB.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
while the timing did suck
I forget who they were playing but Milwaukee had a bases loaded walk-off walk against them on a ball right down the middle.
Cubs. I happened to be watching.
Umps seem to not like calling those cutters that sneak over the inside corner.
by Daniel Berlyn on Jul 23, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Good news - it might get worse
Our team BABIP over the last 14 days is .332.
Who’s excited now?
So long, Sweet Lime!
i think for a team its about .280-.300
Still. If we could consider our anemic offensive unlucky, you’d think the BABIP would be much lower than our 2009 average (.315) than higher.
So long, Sweet Lime!
Re: the umps
As we all know no umpire calls the true strike zone. As we all know no umpire has the same fictional strike zone.
I’m actually okay with that. I’d prefer the real strike zone, but I can live with inconsistencies from umpire to umpire and umpire to rule book.
What I cannot live with is inconsistencies between an umpire and his own strike zone. Be consistent. Go to bed tonight and figure out what is a strike to you and what is a ball to you. Then call your own personal strike zone 100% of the time. The players will figure it out and everything will be okay. Just do not call a pitch a strike and then the exact same pitch a ball a few hitters later. That is not acceptable.
I don't. Being consistently wrong is not acceptable.
Especially when we have the technology to fix the problem.
Tools Whore
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