The Rays Are Looking for a Third Team in a Cliff Lee Deal; Have Interest in Mike Wuertz, Rafael Betancourt, and Jason Frasor
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 10:58 AM EDT
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PrintIndians general manager Mark Shapiro is asking for multiple high-end prospects in return for the left-hander. He is believed to prefer right-hander Wade Davis as the primary chip in the deal. So far, the Rays have balked at including him.
The Rays are trying to involve a third team in an attempt to satisfy Cleveland's prospect demands, major league sources told FOXSports.com senior baseball writer Ken Rosenthal. The third club would provide a second pitcher of the Indians' liking.
Tampa Bay has also shown interest in a number of relievers, sources said, including Cleveland's Rafael Betancourt, Toronto's Jason Frasor and Oakland's Michael Wuertz.
I absolutely love Wuertz. He's having more success now than in the past (same with Frasor) but he's always been a solid reliever. A quick look at each folloing the jump.
Michael Wuertz
Vitals: Right-handed, 30-years-old
Contract: Signed for 1.1 million this year, eligible for arbitration this season, and a free agent after 2011.
Scouting: Throws primarily a nasty slider and 90-92 MPH fastball.
Stats:
| Year | IP | FIP | tRA |
| 2009 | 46.3 | 2.1 | 1.67 |
| 2008 | 44.7 | 4.3 | 5.43 |
| 2007 | 72.3 | 3.94 | 3.47 |
Rafael Betancourt
Vitals: Right-handed, 34-years-old
Contract: 5.4 million club option for next season.
Scouting:Throws a 91-93 fastball, slider, and occasionally a change-up.
Stats:
| Year | IP | FIP | tRA |
| 2009 | 30.7 | 3.7 | 3.32 |
| 2008 | 71 | 4.4 | 4.69 |
| 2007 | 79.3 | 2.22 | 1.74 |
Jason Frasor
Vitals: Right-handed, 31-years-old
Contract: Eligible for free agency following 2010.
Scouting:Throws a 93-95 fastball, slider, and a split-finger fastball.
Stats:
| Year | IP | FIP | tRA |
| 2009 | 35 | 2.59 | 2.68 |
| 2008 | 47.3 | 4.55 | 5.78 |
| 2007 | 57 | 3.17 | 3.64 |
---
As you can tell, relievers are volatile. Each offers one poor seasons in the past three, yet have the reputation of solid relievers. Why? Because the sample size of innings is usually so low that we can't say a ton of things with a degree of confidence. Here's how some other metrics stack the trio up:
| Pitcher | GB% | SwStr% | K% | uBB% |
| Betancourt | 30.9 | 13.1 | 24.8 | 8.8 |
| Wuertz | 43.8 | 19.8 | 33.9 | 6.7 |
| Frasor | 31.5 | 9.7 | 23 | 6 |
So much for a boring deadline.
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Comments
After the game on July 29, we'll know a lot more about our chances this year
and where we stand
Go Rays
Yup
Is next week the most important week in the Rays season? Trade deadline, and 3 at home against the Yanks. Need to pull “a Mealoaf”
Well, let me sleep on it, baby, baby, let me sleep on it
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 23, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll give you an answer in the morning.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 23, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I GOTTA KNOW RIGHT NOW
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 23, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
What a great song.
I’ll add that to my zunepass when I get home.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 23, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Two out three ain't bad, I believe.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 23, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Rock and Roll Dreams Come True
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 23, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Fly like a Bat Outta Hell
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 23, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Lee would be paradise by the dashboard light
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
It Never Felt So Good, It Never Felt So Right
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 23, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
You kissed a girl?
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Why is there no talk about getting a catcher?
We should try to get Martinez in the deal.
There's been a TON of talk about getting a catcher.
The staff did several posts on acquiring Greg Zaun. In the other thread, the idea of trading for Martinez has been discussed.
ok. dont read the site that much
just heard about Hallady/Lee from Mlbtraderumors and Espn – no talk of catchers there
Martinez
Victor would probably cost as much as Lee…not like he’s easy to add to any trade.
If you were going to only have players on a team that got along with each other
Teams would be small
Steel Nick
MICHAEL WUERTZ IS CLEANING OUT HIS LOCKER
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 23, 2009 11:30 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
If someone types things in all caps, it's most likely sarcastic.
I would go as far as to say almost certainly.
Also entirely in the header.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 23, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Chatspeak in general.
Except the occasional GFTO or DIAF or BTW. But that’s mostly in the Game-Day Threads or GDT for short.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 23, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
QUESTION 2: WHY DO YOU PERVERT THAT WHICH IS PRECIOUS AND PURE SUCH AS LOL TO THE KIDS???
King of the bling come to lay down the evidence//Not George Bush, L-Millz be da president
It takes a little time.
I would say 2/3 comments on here are sarcastic, or some extension of a meme.
It's a paraphrase of the Roger Clemens comes back to the Yankees bit.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
wuertz's slider literally brings blood into the vessels of my dick
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 23, 2009 11:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You're new right?
That’s a meme, sort of. Last year there were reports we were trading for Huston Street and someone claimed “STREET IS CLEANING OUT HIS LOCKER.”
It’s been trampled to death since then.
I think it was me.
As a joke.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 23, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
heater
Roster move pending? Thayer on way
Heard that RHP Dale Thayer is in Chicago, but it’s not clear yet what roster move the Rays are going to make. Obviously the condition of RHP Chad Bradford’s back is a key part of this.
I would assume so.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 23, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Prospects
I wonder if Cleveland would take Thayers mustache in a deal for Lee and Martinez, it’s got to be worth a couple of prospects on its own.
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Jul 23, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
in a shock move, thayer will replace dioner navarro as tonights catcher
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 23, 2009 11:38 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I thought this was Wade Boggs at first.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 23, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Hillman vs Thayer in a mustache war
WHO WINS
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 23, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
suck it
tboraysDale Thayer in the house for #Rays (sans mustache), Chad Bradford to DL with lower back tightness
Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz
God it is like Friedman reads my mind
Here is the three team I proposed
Rays get: Cliff Lee, VMart, Teagarden/Salty
Rangers get: Jeff Niemann, PtB
Indians get: Wade Davis, Jacob McGee, Dioner Navarro, Martin Perez, Eric Hurley
Of course maybe make a few adjustments. But that is the three teams that should be involved.
Whoa.
You’re proposing we trade three starters?
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 23, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Well we get Cliff Lee
And McGee is most likely a reliever
They aren't two top pitching prospects
Hurley is lucky to be top 20 in their system now
Sickles has Perez as 10th in their system and Hurley as 20th
Plus they get PtB in this scenario. It can be adjusted of course. It is just a general framework
Well I mean the prospect names can be adjusted
It is just a basic framework. If Perez is too good then they can go to someone else. Either way two B/C type guys + Teagarden for Niemann and PtB
Victor Martinez is not a throw-in
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 23, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wuertz
has the highest swinging strike % in the league correct? God I love me some swings and misses.
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 23, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions
Let's be honest here: there are few players who are "the difference" at this point.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
where you been all day?
i say that and get attacked
And "the difference" is different than "a difference".
You add Lee, you add Zaun, you add a piece from Triple AAA to the pen, you’ve improved the team 3-4 wins. That’s a difference.
Well, that's my point.
I wouldn’t give up a Davis/Brignac/etc package for him.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 23, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
He has present value, which is important.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
To whom?
If he’s not going to help us get to the playoffs this year, we’re not going to trade him in the off-season. If we’re 4.5 back in 2010 and he’s with Cleveland and we trade Hellickson + Kang for a half-season of him, that’s fine IMO.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 23, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
What?
2 wins raises our playoff odds to the 50% range. How does that not help us get near the playoffs?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
But what about how it impacts everyone else?
Does Niemann get booted from the rotation and potentially kill any trade value this off-season? Does Price get sent to Durham and (potentially) mess with his development or to the bullpen, thus limiting his innings and theoretically causing him to have to throw fewer innings next year?
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 23, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Niemann might get traded too? I don't know.
We’re talking about the Rays FO. They’re six steps ahead of us.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
This is my point all along
Niemann is the wild card. His trade value is pretty strong. If we move him to the pen we lose that value.
RaymondoJ Anderson
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 23, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
No, no, no.
You said Cliff Lee wouldn’t make a difference.
RJ is saying Cliff Lee WOULD make a difference, because he’d be worth about 2 wins, which would up our playoff chances to about 50%.
And that’s ignoring the offensive stuff.
WINS, WAIT WE AREN'T TALKING WAR ARE WE?
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 23, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, if you're looking for a sure thing, you aren't getting one.
Even Pujols is only (only?) upgrading the team by ~3-4 wins at this point.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Again, that's my point.
I wouldn’t give up Davis/Brignac/whatever because I don’t think we’re making the playoffs this year anyway.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 23, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
And next year?
Six win pitchers aren’t coming around for 8 million very often.
I love Brignac and like Davis, but this is a pretty enticing idea.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
What do we do when Bartlett goes back to a sub-.700 OPS
Would be nice to have Reid to at least platoon there.
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 23, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone knows the odds are against us right now.
Either we can hope that ~30-40% shot works out for us, or we can try and get better now.
Don’t you always talk about how we young folk look to the future too much?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
me? i just don't see us getting there this year
and i don’t see where Lee helps with our biggest concern
lulz?
Trying to pick up on the meme around here…a lil help?
A direct message on twitter from local radio host Duemig
BigDogwdaeIcon_locksay good night now a-hole. take your know it all ass back to blogsphere and stay there. I must have the lulz
This was after I posted his tweets…“for the lulz”
Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz
i know, and overlooking some of the facts
and we all have is pretty narrow minded
this team padded it’s numbers in blowouts, which have ceased
the low scoring games have been there all year, but individual numbers were exaggerated by the blowouts
check our Runn diff on June 15 and now
So that may help slightly.
That doesn’t all of a sudden turn the offense around like Sternfan wants.
Navi is out 2nd best hitter in July
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 23, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Why the arbitrary date?
Why not June 14th? May 15th?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
So what do you propse we do about it?
Pack it in for the year? The offense isn’t changing next year, either.
Desmond and Joyce...
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 23, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Who are they upgrades over?
Do you think Desmond Jennings is going to go on a hot streak after jumping Triple A to MLB than BJ, who’s posted a 380 OBP in the prior two seasons, is going to go on one?
Joyce an upgrade over the best LFer in the game, or the 4th best RF if you count our platoon as one guy?
No, but to suggest the offense isn't changing isn't smart
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 23, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
hes past his prime
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 23, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
who needs to be replaced
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 23, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
POWER ARM
he already said this
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 23, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Because regardless of your view of the offense
a pitcher worth 2 wins the rest of the year doesnt help us period. Its not like we showed last year that good starting pitching will always keep you in games. And were not getting a good SP out of this deal. Oh wait!
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 23, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks, Joe Morgan!
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Jul 23, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Ya thats what I was saying
I dont see how someone could sit here and say they dont understand how getting Lee would help us win more games this year
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 23, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, nobody's saying that
We’re saying we don’t think Lee gets us to the playoffs, and getting him has some other negative effects(my point about Niemann’s trade value).
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 23, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody is saying Lee gets us to the playoffs.
But 1.5 seasons of him upgrades our chances by a hell of a lot.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
And I don't think the package that it would take to get him
is worth trading, at least now(maybe in the offseason or next deadline at a lower price).
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 23, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
and we woudl have him next year, which greatly increases the chance
So much less $ than the good Doc
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 23, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
We only have one offensive position to upgrade.
That would be catcher.
PtB has been poor, we aren’t replacing him. You know that. The offense is mostly fine, B.J. went through a slump, as did Longo, as did Pena. We know they all run the risk of getting cold and hot together.
Simply put: there’s one offensive position we can trade for, and it’s generally the hardest to find help at.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Statistically? He's worth 1.5-2.0 wins.
Otherwise? He makes our rotation better and he goes deep in games, which will help our bullpen. I think it’s a difference maker.
yes, and please don't take this the wrong way
how does he help us win games when we score three or less runs?
By holding the opponent to two or less?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Word, which would be huge.
I love me Wade Davis, but the chances he bursts out of the gate with a 6 win season is tiny.
And by the time Lee leaves Price should be fine.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
And if we're worried about re-stocking the farm system...
Carl, Kaz, and Garza could all be dealt between this off season and 2012 to do that.
And we're going to be aggressive in the draft.
We’ll be fine.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 23, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
And dont forget theres that guy named Carl
that Friedman could absolutely fleece someone with
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 23, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
ohs nos
oops. but I clarified it. now everyone understands what you meant.
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 23, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Wuertz
K% 31.74%
eK% 35.17%
Expected increase of 3.43%
Clstr% 18.8
Foul% 11.4%
InPly% 15.5%
InZ SS 4.9%
OZ SS 14.07%
Wuertz leads the league in out of zone swinging strikes
He is at 14.07%, next up is Luke Gregerson at 13%, Brandon League at 11.9% and Mark DiFelice at 11.24%
Wuertz is second in the league in expected strikeouts
He is at 35.17%, behind broxton at 37.5% and way ahead of 3rd/4th place who is DiFelice/Nathan at 30.7%
Frasor
K% 22.48
eK% 21.91
Expected decline of .57%
ClStr 18.4%
Foul 18.6
Inplay 17.2
InZ SS 3.56%
OZ SS 5.05%
if we got lee
would we have both the pitching/batting versions of cliff lee or the pitching/batting versions of ben zobrist?
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 23, 2009 11:53 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
This is a bit off topic regarding Howell and Sonnanstine
Andrew Sonnanstine leads the league for starting pitchers in called strike percentage for all starters with over 33xIP
JP Howell leads the entire league (relievers and starters) in called strike percentage for all pitchers with over 33xIP
Id love to see us move a reliever
bring up Sonny and let him be the long man out of the pen and let Corms pitch in more high leverage. Sonny would be nasty in the pen
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 23, 2009 12:09 PM EDT reply actions
I miss boom boom
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 23, 2009 12:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Maybe the Rays should sell high on Niemann
As much as I love him, if trading Niemann while his value is high means holding onto another prospect, than I might do that.
I really am high on Brignac and don't really understand why we are pushing him
Cleveland doesn’t have a pressing need for him and if we can swap out a lower level P prospect like Barnese or Lobstein instead of Brignac I think we should. That being said, my guess is Davis would end up being the only major piece we send over to Cleveland as a third team (most likely for Kaz) is going to need to be involved and that is where we can get another P prospect to send to Cleveland.
I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet but...
Rafeal Betancourt is now a Colorado Rockie….
Count him out
"Doesn't Manny Ramirez look like the monster from Predator??" - Will Farrell as Harry Carey
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