The Change in Perception of BJ Upton
Disclaimer: This is not a pro-Upton or anti-Upton post, just a matter of facts to dispute a claim.
I recently heard Wills or Andy Freed say that B.J. Upton was not a patient hitter. They said he's not the prototypical leadoff hitter because he doesn't see a lot of pitchers.
It surprised me. Wills and Freed are generally very good, and this seemed like a ridiculous statement. Later on I heard someone refer to BJ as a free swinger.
Upton's perception has changed since last year. He's not the hitter who waits too long and looks for the perfect pitch. He's now seen as an impatient free swinger.
BJ Upton loves the first pitch, he always has. In 2007 Upton has swung at the first pitch 35%, then 34% in 2008, and 34% in 2009. That's pretty consistent and hasn't changed. Could that be what makes him a free swinger?
Lets look at all MLB players with 300 PAs this year. (Using fangraphs, BB-ref, and ESPN for info).
First, let's see if Upton is a free swinger by looking at total swings.
Upton swings at 41.2% of all pitches thrown. That puts him in the top 25% in baseball for lowest swing percentage (37th/159).
So now we know he doesn't swing a lot. Maybe he chases ball out of the strike zone.
Upton swings at a ball out of the zone 17.5% of the time. That puts him in the top 7% in baseball (11th/159)
Alright, Upton doesn't swing a lot and doesn't chase out of the zone. Maybe he's just swinging at everything in the zone.
Upton swings at a ball in the zone 63% of the time. That puts him in the top 33% in baseball (or bottom, depending if you think this is good or bad).
Well, maybe Upton just makes weak contact and doesn't see a lot of pitches.
Upton has seen an average of 4.10 pitches per place appearance this year. That's in the top 18% of baseball (29th/159).
How about the last month?
He's averaged 4.17 pitches in July. That makes him in the top 21% in baseball for the month (46th/216)
So what does it mean? Basically Upton is the furthest thing from a free swinger.
Upton has not been a good offensive player this year. His numbers are down across the board. With that comes some misconceptions about what is wrong. From the numbers, the one thing BJ is doing poorly is missing pitches. His contact % of balls in the strike zone is 81.5%, that's in the bottom 8% of all of baseball. It's pretty poor. There are some good players right there with him (his brother, Matt Kemp, Jason Bay, Longoria, Pena, Dunn), but they rely a lot more on power than BJ does.
BJ isn't a free swinger, he's just not making contact.
This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.
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Funny because my perception and most people I watch the game's with perception
is that he is the total opposite of a free swinger. I mean we wouldn’t mind him being more aggresive at times.
Kap-rilla???
HE'S TOO LAZY TO SWING
But good info. This should at least put some doubt into the haters.
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what are you thinking
There was an article in the st. pete times a few days ago about how upton is NOT lazy, and what do you mean “haters.” BJ is a fantastic player and athlete, and look at his numbers in june and july alone and you’ll see he’s one of the top players in all of major league baseball
9=8
Great subject matter. I had a long debate with FreeZo on this very
point yesterday
His stats as a lead off hitter for the game are like below 145/244/265
That to me is all that ,atters as far as batting lead off is concerned, because usually that’s the only time you’re guaranteed to lead off an inning
Right
Upton has all characteristics of a great leadoff hitter (OBP, speed, plate discipline) and those numbers are skewed by his recovery from a shoulder injury and a small sample size.
BJs OBP past two years are .383 and .386. And I think tallyray did a great job covering plate discipline.
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But still leading off a game, he's miserable
the biggest sample size we can get would be 162
I cited Burrell’s 500+ AB as a DH v AL pitching and was told that was too small
If BJ hangs around where he is now, what will your opinion of him be?
Why would they?
His wRAA as a regular in the majors:
2007: 27.2
2008: 15.3
2009: -2.3
Why would we believe this is an indication of things to come?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 24, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Becuase leading off a game is completely different than other PA's
It’s like flying a plane vs. crawling on the floor
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Overpercived skill
Or a yearlong slump.
I don’t think it’s the shoulder anymore; he showed he recovered from that.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
can't keep blaming the shoulder, that's for sure
not after you become the AL Player of the Month for June…that’s what makes this so frustrating, that for the month of July he’s taken a dramatic step back.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 24, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree about the shoulder
but I don’t dismiss that for April and May. From June foreward I expect good to great things
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 24, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
If BJ's OPS 1.100 for the rest of his career, what would your opinion be?
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He won't
He doesn’t get to face our HORRIBLE OFFENSE 9 times a year
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i can see why fans fall in love with BJ, he really
is a ‘sexy’ player, but at some point we need to see all aspects of his game performing at a high level dor a full season
there’s a poster on the Indians forum who does selective stats to make his case, and that’s what i find with BJ
again. i’m in his corner
Am i saying that? NOOOOOO
But i’ve watched Sizemore play CF for 5 years now, and have never seen him play a ball like that in CF00not once
Why? cause he plays the pct, knows when to cheat and when not
BJ is not a smart ballplayer
I'm guessing Grady Sizemore has played OF his whole career
I feel like people forget Upton was a SS his whole life up until a couple years ago, god forbid he makes a mistake on a ball.
I will predict, if we're all around three years
from now and BJ is still a Ray, we’ll be having this same discussion
based on what your dislike of him?
He has turned into one of the best defensive CF in the game while playing the position 2 years. Everyone loved how quickly Aki turned into a great 2B defensively very quickly but don’t give BJ the same credit.
I root for BJ more than any other Ray
but he’s having a miserable year, sans June
Who says this will be his career?
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
glass, this all started with my comment of him being a good lead off hitter
i expanded that to leading off a game, and showed his awful slash line
now y’all turned it into ’let’s attack Raymondo’
on his way to Cooperstown
269/358/414
if 1700 is not large enough of a sample size
no one on this site put him in Cooperstown
We think he can bat leadoff for the last few months for the 2009 Rays and play a damn fine centerfield
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Zo here's a question for you
i don’t know where to find it
1-how many 1st inning runs have we scored
2- how many games have we scored in the 1st inning
3- how does that compare to the rest of the AL
General answers:
1. Not many
2. More then we have
3. Pretty bad
I don’t have the exact numbers.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
and what are the percentage of winning a game when leading after the 1st inning?
i bet greater than 20-60%
Raymondo
I don’t care in reference to this argument. I was a supporter of a temprary move down in the lineup for BJ until he was healthier and had his timing back. June was a decent enough sample where I fully support him in the leadoff role. I am willing to discard the first two months of data.
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i would agree, but if this slump continues as a team
i might try Zobrist there, and move BJ down to 6 or 7 depending on the pitcher
I don't understand why Zobrist?
he is one of the guys who has been driving in runs, why stick him behind the bottom of the order?
because even with him producing
we are he actually will take a walk, steal 2B and when he gets his pitch drive it out for a 1st inning leadnot scoring runs
He's not the basestealer BJ is
He’s deceptively quick, but is not a regular threat to steal. BJ is fast.
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The alternative is to move CC up to the top of the batting order.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Here are the answers...
1 – 47 or 0.49 average, last year was an average of 0.44
2 – 26 (70 scoreless) or 27% of games, last year was 26.5%
3 -
Red sox are 1- 62, 2- 34
Yankees are 1-61, 2-31
Orioles are 1 – 56, 2 34 45, 2 -28
Blue Jays are 1
Indiands are 1-52, 2-29
Mariners are 1-44, 2-29
I'm not sure if you can gain that...
Obviously there is going to be an advantage since it’s scoring a run. If you score first it means you’ve already scored at least one run in the game. That itself is going to give you an advantage going forward.
Disappointing based on expectations, forgivable due to recovery, a relative good year based on alternatives?
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This is a serious question, though it involves opinion
Would you rather BJ play “safe” and not get to 30% of the balls he does, which seems like it would cost us at times or be aggressive and misplay 1-2 balls a year?
I can think of a half dozen plays or so off the top of my head where his “aggressive/non-smart” way of playing CF has left to saving runs or making a great play.
Again, serious question, but I don’t have any proof or stats.
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Its a question that the the Rays FO evaluated and determined it is more beneficial for him to play shallow.
The play vs the Sox was a misjudgement. It should have been caught. It was a forgivable error given the superhuman work he does out there day in and day out.
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That's my question though
I give him a free pass on that (though we all wish he had made the play) based on the fact that he makes so many other great plays that most CF’s dont make (in my opinion).
You deal with Pena striking out becuase you know he can go yard at anytime. Players have warts, get used to it. I’ll take 20 great plays vs 1 bad play.
Maybe I’m not looking through the right glasses, seems people just want to crucify black Jesus
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
BJ really does get crucified a lot quicker than others
Jason Bartlett throws a ball into the stands but it is okay because he was just trying to make a great play. Upton is one of the best defensive CF in the game and any time he makes a mistake he has a bad baseball IQ?
That's what burns me the most about it.
I’ve assigned equal blame to Upton, Bartlett, and Maddon for IMO bringing in the wrong pitcher. All I hear about is how Upton blew that play. Nobody realizes that Bartlett was an idiot for throwing to first since by the time the ball got there, Posedinik was already rounding off the first base line. Nobody considers that in a situation like that, if you’re calling JP Howell your relief ace, there’s no better time to bring him in (or for that matter, Balfour, who has a history of recent success against Ramirez).
Yet that game was all Upton’s fault.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Well yeah, but he was inconsistent all game. Wheeler could've gotten another strike instead of giving up a line drive.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
That second 'out' was a line drive. Ramirez hits it somewhere else, and that's a hit no matter who's in position to make the play.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
The only thing that confuses me about Maddon's decision
was bringing Bradford in, I think that gets lost. Why was he going into the game. Wheeler was the right choice to be in the game at that point and who knows what happen if Wheeler is allowed to properly warm-up instead of being rushed out after the injury. I forgot what they were but someone posted the stats of Ramirez and Dye against Wheeler and they weren’t good.
My biggest issue with BJ's defense probably isn't his fault...
in my opinion, in certain situations in a game he is placed too shallow and that opens the door for a double over his head. (In which case he probably didn’t get to it because he is “lazy”).
I want BJ playing defense as hard and as risky as he can.
I'd rather in later innings he didn't allow a ball over his head
especially in a bandbox park
and if Willie Mays played for the Rays and wasn't named Akinori Iwamura
Raymond would dislike him and want him traded for a reliever.
why not cut the bullshit and talk baseball?
of i het it, you can’t
so because you think he sucks
everyone else is wrong. I suppose if I think that Albert Pujols is only slightly above average and argue all day I can convince myself it is true.
He misjudged it
it wasn’t like he couldn’t get there because he was playing shallow. So im not sure what your point is
Kap-rilla???
I think we all acknnowledge that miss was BJ's fault..
I think the discussion was more in the general perception of his play in CF when he misses plays because they go over his head or what not.
Upton is one of the most intelligent players on his team.
by Erik Hahmann on Jul 24, 2009 2:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What do you base this on?
Not disagreeing, but it seems like a statement that would be difficult to back up.
what the fuck do you have to back this up?
he’s a better defender than sizemore. he misplayed a ball so now he’s unintelligent?
Selgy
The smart player stuff is another thing that people lump on B.J.
I’m not sure misreading one ball out of thousands really proves that he is either a smart or dumb player. How about the numerous times he’s shifted just to the left or right and caught a liner smacked at him? Dumb luck? Probably, but so is misreading a ball.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 24, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
This is why we fall in love with him:
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2009&month=12
Because he’s really, really good.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 24, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha
Upton’s fielding value has been more than twice as good as Sizemore’s.
by nolesblogger on Jul 24, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
shh don't tell a certain someone
Sizemore is better because he has never misplayed a ball in his life
The injury excuse is acceptable for Sizemore
One more BJ double standard
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BJ's perception hurdles are probably second only to Jackie Robinson in his day
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Right. But it makes this comment funny
But i’ve watched Sizemore play CF for 5 years now, and have never seen him play a ball like that in CF00not once
Why? cause he plays the pct, knows when to cheat and when not
BJ is not a smart ballplayer
by nolesblogger on Jul 24, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
just saying, Grady is as bad as he is defensively because he has a noodle for an arm
he is as rangy and void of obvious mistakes as a top flight defender, so while that comment is stupid for incinuating B.J. is stupid based on anecdotal evidence, Grady is pretty good, its just his arm…
by Navi's_Navy on Jul 24, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
being a lead-off hitter is more than just "leading off the game"
it is getting the most AB’s and being a guy who gets on base throughout the game in front of your big hitters. I don’t know the stats but if say Carlos Pena is a .300/.400 guy leading off innings should he hit leadoff?
Thanks! One thing...
I got a headache trying to figure out if he was “in the top ten” as in did or did not swing, etc. Just so I’m clear:
He’s in the top 25% of not swinging (swings at less pitches than 75% of league).
He chases the ball out of the zone less than 93% of the league.
Upton swings in the zone more than 33% of the league.
Upton sees more pitches per at bat than 82% of the league.
Upton saw more pitchers per at bat in July than 79% of the league.
All right except the middle one..
Upton’s in the 33rd percentile for in zone swing , meaning 67 swing more than him.
He only swings at 63% of balls in the zone, meaning he takes 37%. That’s quite a lot of zone pitches (generally strikes) that he’s not swinging at. That’s why I put the disclaimer about good or bad.
Some of this stuff was hard to word, probably could have done a better job.
thanks for clearing that up...
So if anything, BJ may be a bit too patient. But with his contact rate he can probably afford to be in the long run. If he has a high contact rate then being pitch selective would probably lead to a better BABIP since he is able to “place” (for lack of a better term) those pitches he selects that much better?
The problem is what's happening when he makes contact.
His FB% is extremely high and LD% is the lowest of his career. That’s a terrible combination. I’m gonna add a comment on the bottom about this.
Then there is a very simple question....
Can BJ get his FB and LD% back where they should be? Are these stats that can/do regress and are they expected to?
It could be mechanical.
He may just be getting under the ball a little too much when would lead to that issue or it could regress.
I tend to think he’s been a bit unlucky and it’s impossible for me to tell if these numbers are being weighted by a terrible display in April or if they’ve been consistent throughout the year. There are a lot of factors that are unaccounted for.
LD and FB rate are only fairly repeatable
I forget where I read that, but I think it was on fangraphs so I trust it. I really like this HR/FB%, actually, shame his HR/FB% wasn’t a little higher as well. Hopefully its the shoulder, but we only have one year of data to suggest it could be 15% + . I wouldn’t be surprised to see it climb to around 10-11%, and if that happens then this FB rate is good. Now just making some better contact as some grounders to turn them into liners and I would be happy.
by Navi's_Navy on Jul 24, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I heard this criticism too yesterday, I had no idea where it came from, and thought it was completely unfounded.
I’ve also outright stopped listening to criticism on BJ Upton from outside influences, nobody seems to know what they’re talking about.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I heard the same and was tempted to call in and lambast them.
It was yesterday, and I was at work. I didn’t but I was SHOCKED at how wrong they were. It so pisses me off when people just speak completely out of their ass.
I'm actually kind of shocked that he swings at pitches in the zone at a 63% clip....
My perception was always that he took a too many pitches. Shows I have an inability to count/observe. I wonder what his % looking is on 3rd strike as it compares to MLB.
I may be over stating my opinion on this, but I have told many people that if we were to trade BJ this far before his FA years it would be one of the most regretted decisions in Rays history. I don’t know why he gets such a bad rap, it is like anything he does “wrong” is magnified and when he does things right it is ignored. Hell, sometimes when he glides to a ball in CF and makes an easy catch it’s “look at him loafing to that ball”.
I’m reminded of the early season slump when he still had a 0.350 or so OBP yet everyone said he was worthless.
He will hit and when he does everyone in Tampa is in for a treat.
I did a piece on Chris Young for FG a week ago.
He and Upton are very similar this season, and both take nearly 40% of the pitches in the zone for strikes. Those were the highest amongst players with ~75% contact rates.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 24, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Upton's called 3rd percent is 32% this year.
Way down from his 45% last year and inline with the 31% from 2007.
He’s basically in the middle of the pack on the Rays. Scroll down to Team Pitches Batting and then look at L/SO.
I didn't hear this.
Did they cite someone else? A coach? Manager? Scout? Or was it purely heat of the moment?
It was almost immediately after his first groundout yesterday.
Either Freed or Wills stated that BJ isn’t a typical leadoff hitter because he’s a free swinger. Then one of them said he’s adjusting to leadoff but doesn’t see as many pitches as the typical lead off. That’s not an exact quote, but it went something like that.
What are the sources for this?
I’d like to take a look at a relationship between swing in zone %, contact rates, and BA or some other such metric.
I used fangraphs, BB-Ref and ESPN
As stated in the post.
Each site has a little bit that the other one doesn’t.
The big problem is what happens when he makes contact.
I didn’t talk about it above because I wanted the post to be opinion free, but BJ’s really struggling when he makes contact.
Upton’s FB% is 42%, last year it was 30%, in 2007 it was 37%.
His LD% is down about 4%. His GB% is down 8% from last year and inline with 2007 (when his BABIP was absurd).
Baseball Reference lists his percentage of linedrives and flyballs caught in the infield at 17%. His career average is 9%.
A lot of me thinks the numbers are really unlucky and should change. It’d be very tough for him to keep rates this poor in all these categories.
The only way for Upton to be really productive is to make the best of the balls he puts in play, that just hasn’t happened this year.
Well
SI_JonHeyman#phillies are trying hard for #halladay. with drabek or happ & others to deal, i’ll be surprised if they don’t get him.
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
I would guess he ends up in Philly, maybe the Dodgers
I think if we get a pitcher it will have to be Lee. he cost less and I think AF would rather not trade in division.
if the reports of Dominic Brown, Kyle Drabek, and J.A. Happ are true its not going to happen
the Jays are going to need to lower their standards, that would be quite a haul. Carrasco instead of Happ might happen though, and I would do it if I were the Jays.
by Navi's_Navy on Jul 24, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions

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