Report: Rays Recruiting Rangers In Possible Three Way For Cliff Lee
by Tommy Rancel on Jul 26, 2009 10:27 PM EDT
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A follow up to our earlier fanshot and tweets
Gordon Edes of Yahoo! Sports hit us with the latest on the Rays trying to get the Texas Rangers as the third team in order to satisify the Cleveland Indians thirst for young arms in a potential Cliff Lee deal.
• Tampa Bay has been aggressive in its pursuit of Cliff Lee(notes). The Rays are trying to involve the Texas Rangers as a third team in the deal, with the Indians getting top Rays pitching prospect Wade Davis(notes) and at least one young arm from the Rangers. The Rays also almost certainly will move Andy Sonnanstine(notes), perhaps to a team looking for bullpen help. The Rays also have shown considerable interest in Toronto reliever Jason Frasor, as has Detroit.
You'll also notice that Edes speculates the Rays will deal Andy Sonnanstine before the deadline and that the Rays are showing interest in Jason Frasor, who looked good today against the Rays. I'm not sure what we would get back for Sonny right now, but it probably wouldnt be much. As for Frasor and his 2.51 FIP in 09, I surely wouldn't mind seeing him inserted into the Rays bullpen.
But back to the Lee/Texas/Tampa Bay possibility. The Rangers have a handful of young arms that could be used in a potential trade, but what would they get in return?
• The Rangers, meanwhile, have shown some interest in Tampa Bay’s Scott Kazmir(notes), but apparently not if it would cost them left-hander Derek Holland(notes). The Rangers’ need for another pitcher became more acute after the news that left-hander Matt Harrison(notes) needs shoulder surgery and is out for the season. The Dodgers may also make a run at Kazmir.
I've always pegged Texas as a possible destination for Kazmir. It makes too much sense. He's a Texas native, they have been looking for starting pitching since...forever it seems and Kaz has pitched well in their ballpark albeit small sample size (2.52 ERA, 25 K's in 25 IP). From the information above, I'm guessing something like Kazmir to Texas for a young arm, presumably not Derek Holland, that arm and Wade Davis plus probably two more players to Cleveland for Cliff Lee or so that's how it would seem.
And the saga continues...
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 27, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions
If we trade Wade, could we move Sonny and Brigs for a stud pitching prospect?
If we move SOnny, Kaz and Wade, we won’t have much major league ready pitching on the farm
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Texas doesn't have much use for Brignac tho...
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by Tommy Rancel on Jul 26, 2009 10:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
None whatsoever
I mean if we have use Kaz and Davis as Lee bait, it would be nice to pick up another arm using Brigs and myabe Sonny (Morrow)?
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
For a short period
Zo can fill in for emergency use. Bartlett is affordable for a few more years. THen hopefully TBEx
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I suppose you could wait until the offseason and move Barty for pitching
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Still don't think his value is as high as Brigs though, could be wrong
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Brigs is probably better defensively than Bartlett
He is a lefty so he will have handedness in his favor in most matchups. Bartletts track record suggests he is not as good as he is hitting this year. Its a sell high, but I think most FO’s see through it and prefer Brigs when costs are considered.
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
UZR you mean?
Hes pretty widely regarded as an excellent defensive SS
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
At some point, even the brilliant Andrew Friedman is going to have to pay the fiddler
This team has all the earmarks of a $85-100 million dollar payroll within 3-5 years
Except the fact that they CANT pay that
by Erik Hahmann on Jul 26, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Winning solves everything
Unless you’re the Marlins
by Transplanted on Jul 26, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I'm sure this career year -- headed by an inflated BABIP -- is sustainable.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
If someone is stupid enough to think he's a really good hitter all the sudden.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
The difference is Upton has years showing he can repeat that BABIP, like Crawford, Bartlett has never been above .360.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Have you seen David Wright's?
.416
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Not always.
Because high strikeout guys usually hit home runs and walk a lot too. HR don’t count towards BABIP.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I need to re-run this now that I'm decent with SQL
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
NO recs on that? Togh crowd
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
tough
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I spent 3 hours on my two Price posts for the AM.
That’s about three times what I spent on that post.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Haven't seen Price's obviously
but it would be tough to equal that posts creativity and originality
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Price piece should open some avenues of discussion.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Controversy, I like it
Will it lead to chants of:
a) Fire Hickey
B) We Should have Traded Sonny instead of Edwin
C) Upton is Lazy
D) Attendance sucks
E) Navi is fat
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Well D is true
But it’s true for everyone in baseball mostly
by Transplanted on Jul 26, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe A.
But upon looking at Shields last few starts, the problems with Price don’t appear to be shared.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
But what about Price when he throws to Michel?
Tie that bad boy in there
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't check that actually.
But A) you just gave me an idea, B) it won’t affect my gripes with Price.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I have #'s that may save u some time if u want em
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe.
But I’d be looking at called strikes with Navi vs. called with Hernandez.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't have that but I can give you the dates MH caught
5/30
6/17
7/9
7/19
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks.
I’ll try and look for some matched pairs based on umps. Maybe expand it to every pitcher on staff and see if Hernandez gets borderline calls better.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Log
Not sure if this will help:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tgEqF0AG-w7-RxHN7Sdh0dQ&output=html
Its not up to date. Or info from this. Most of this data is on a different computer.
http://www.draysbay.com/2009/7/13/947720/evaluating-the-rays-starting
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, I looked at Shields since he had the largest sample size
There was no no real difference in overall pitch selection totals
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know the called strike % difference
but Strike% is off by over 10%
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Top 5 BABIPs
Wright 24.1%
Barty 18.2%
Ichiro 9%
Hanley 16.3%
Mauer 14.5%
Back to the drawing board
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
let me refine my question
given two players each with BA of 275, i’d bet the one who K’s more has the higher BABIP
That should be pretty obvious right?
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
well, not to everyone
i’ve had this argument with those that say K’s have nothing to do with BABIP, but yes they do affect it
If two players have the same BA, but one strikes out more
He will have the higher BABIP 100% of the time, unless the other player hits for an even greater margin of HR
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Its like saying if two guys have the same BA, I'm willing to bet the one that walks more has the higher OBP
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Ks don't directly affect it.
They do when you qualify it with “If two players have a .275 BA, but one strikes out more…” It’s like saying “Two players have a .350 OBP, but one walks more” then asking who has the higher BA.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Well Ichiro is one of a kind, so I don't blame you.
That guy is incredible.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
And even if he hits 250
Ill take his top 5 defense in CF, his 380 OBP, and his ~45 steals. Im not hatin on Barty, Im just sayin you need to trade high and Barty is a perfect example right now.
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 26, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
leads AL in caught stealing
not counting picked off
rivals only DeJesus and Kinsler as worst OBP of all AL lead off hitters
Yea BJ hasnt had a very good year
but if you discount April and May because of the injury, hes had one good month and one bad month, all the while playing great defense.
June OBP: .395
July OBP: 284
Obviously the July OBP is unacceptable but Im inclined to think the real BJ is much closer to June than July.
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 26, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
since you're case is based on June, if his year
ends somewhere as it stands now, i’ll look for a retraction
Ill be very disappointed
If his end of the year OBP isnt .350 or above. Ill be the first to say, even right now (regardless of his year end numbers), that BJ hasnt quite performed to expectations, to say the least. All that being said:
BJ Upton 2009 WAR: 1.8 worth ~8 mil
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 26, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I bet most of the times he has been "picked off"
Have counted as caught stealing. If you go first move, and get caught, it is a caught stealing.
And even if he hits 250
Ill take his top 5 defense in CF, his 380 OBP, and his ~45 steals. Im not hatin on Barty, Im just sayin you need to trade high and Barty is a perfect example right now.
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 26, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
And Ill still take his .250 (even though he has all the tools to hit for a higher average)
When he plays plus plus defense, has a ~.380 OBP, and steals ~45 bases. Im not hatin on Barty just sayin you have to sell high and Barty is a perfect example right now.
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 26, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
computer fail
my bad didnt mean to post the same thing 8 times
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 26, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
BJs frustrations are with higher expectations
Last year’s playoffs and this June show his immense potential and his inconsistency exasporates the hell out of everyone. The first half of the season made sense with his shoulder, but his July slump makes no sense after his outstanding June. Still he has loads of potential and hopefully he can be the type of impact player he has shown he’s capable of.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 26, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
not really when he's in arbitration
even with the numbers he’s got, it’s going to increase a sizable portion and maybe i’m wrong, but i don’t think his not quite what was hopefully expected stats will matter much. I just hope we can get a full season of this guy’s talents before he gets too expensive.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 26, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
the only good thing
is most of the arbiters are stupid and only look at things like BA, HR, and AVG (as far as Ive heard) so BJ is going to end up being vastly underpaid, even if he just repeats his 2008.
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 26, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Team won last year's Arbitration too
Must be good at arguing
by Transplanted on Jul 26, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Do we have arb numbers for a CF?
That are similar to him for comparison?
by Transplanted on Jul 26, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Seems like it is in the 2.5-3M range
For most OFs, not just center. I’m too lazy to investigate stats, but Victorino got 3.125M for himself
by Transplanted on Jul 26, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
He's walking more than before.
His biggest problem is that defensive skills go before offensive skills.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I meant range.
Range-blessed players make errors, it happens.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Groan
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
26.4% LD%
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes absolutely
Maybe not at the deadline, though I think Briggy would be close to equal to Barty defensively, but definitely in the offseason. You always trade high and there are plenty of GM’s in this league that will look at Bartys ~.340 avg and reputation as a plus defender and get Friedman’d.
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 26, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Is there a better chance Briggy is productive or Bartlett repeats this year's offense?
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
bartlett doesn't have to repeat this year to be more productive then briggy
he could regress a ton and still be more productive at this point.
by davidsmarch on Jul 26, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Barty's career OBP is .346
With the defensive differential, I’m not sure you are right
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Based on what?
Brignac can hit righties like Bartlett hits lefties and their gloves are at least near equal.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
based on the fact that we have no idea what Briggy can do in the majors...
you know i love briggy, i even wanted a Briggy Watch widget if you remember. i’m just not ready to discount what Bartlett is doing. Briggy’s glove MAY be as good as bartletts, and he MAY hit righties like Barty hits lefties, it’s all conjecture. what we have in Barty is a known commodity.
by davidsmarch on Jul 26, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Brignac has hit righties in Triple-A and every level below.
I can’t prove his glove is as good, but I can suggest that even if Bartlett is better, he’s heading towards decline already.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
that point i will condede, age is a huge factor here
i am all for trading barty after the season and seeing what we can get in return.
by davidsmarch on Jul 26, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Bartlett was the most valuable player on this team last year.
A team like the Royals could use his leadership and dedication to the game to teach their youth how to win.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
But they have Yunesky!
You cant put a player like that on the bench
by BJ the Bossman on Jul 26, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
how else do you sell high?
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Bartlett wasn't overly productive last year.
Even if we do trade Brignac, you can find another Bartlett cast aside by a silly GM.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 26, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Briggy has more value. I'd move Barty after the season if we don't trade Brigs
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
On the farm, very little, but we have Zo, and lots of 2B flexibility
Pretty barren at SS until the young T Bex
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
That's why I'm starting to think against losing him
Depth saves your team every year. Got the team the pennant last year & it’s why the Yankees didn’t come close to getting it, but may do it this year and the Sox in past years
by Transplanted on Jul 26, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
But pitching depth?
Zo is serviceable enough to be an emergency SS
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
He can do that, but I like him where he is for now, SS last year was kinda bad
by Transplanted on Jul 26, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Me too, but it would only be for emergencies
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 26, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I may agree, not sure all the moving parts but it is starting to sound a lot less attractive
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Did anyone catch that last tidbit in the second quote? "The Dodgers may also make a run at Kazmir."
Hmmm
yeah all we need is another trade with the Dodgers.
We got enough of their players that we never use/complain about (Edwin, Navi, Seo and so forth)
"Doesn't Manny Ramirez look like the monster from Predator??" - Will Farrell as Harry Carey
by Gone Phishing on Jul 26, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
But look at who we gave up in those deals
It was good to get what we got. The Lugo deal was a failure long-term, but the others were clear wins.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Exactly, Lance Carter isn't a world beater
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
I liked Lance
He was a makeshift closer for a year
"Doesn't Manny Ramirez look like the monster from Predator??" - Will Farrell as Harry Carey
by Gone Phishing on Jul 27, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
and an allstar too!
"Doesn't Manny Ramirez look like the monster from Predator??" - Will Farrell as Harry Carey
by Gone Phishing on Jul 27, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Say if we trade Davis, I need your guys help.
A) Sell signed Wade Davis Cards on eBay after deal because his new teams fans will think he’s instantly the tits pajamas and overpay.
B) Keep, but don’t sell it right away.
C) Keep it forever, in the memory of young Wade Davis.
Wait until he's up in the majors
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
no dissrespect intended
but all of this “wanna be GM” trade speculation is giving me a headache. would someone help me out here. I would like to see a list of players leaving and to whom, and a list of players that would be comming here I havn’t heard anything yet that makes any kind of sense. maby I’m missing something.
thank you
by gjsor on Jul 27, 2009 12:09 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
How is posting rumors make people "wanna be GM's"? Makes no sense. This blog is made to share breaking news if i'm not mistaken. If that's too much maybe you should avoid this site?
Don’t want to drive visitors from this site, but the above statement sounds so ridiculous.
As Price's catcher.
These are the called strikes. Hernandez is the orange, Navarro the blue. Sorry if it’s hard to see, but I wanted to fit it in one graph for comparison. I’m really not sure what to take of this, but despite far less starts, Hernandez has more non-strikes being called strikes. Either bad umpiring or good framing.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 27, 2009 12:58 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Wow, I don't know the scale of that box, but thats a big chunk at the bottom with ZERO called strikes
David Price gets as much officiating love as Courtney Lee
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It appears he shifts outside more with Navi.
Even though this is just the called strikes, I am assuming (guessing) that trend is fairly consistent with all pitches.
Or maybe my mind’s eye is being thrown off because there are just more pitches to Navi
So right after the trade deadline passes and we're all disappointed...
Velociraptor Jesus will square off against Zombie Sidney Ponson.
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 27, 2009 2:15 AM EDT reply actions
Is it just me, or does it seem patently stupid to think even for a second that Texas would be at all interested in doing anything to help the Rays get players to make the postseason?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Is the juice worth the squeeze
They obviously aren’t going to be used as just a means for the Rays to better themselves, but will only contribute to a deal that in turn, will increase their chances of making the playoffs.
If they actually think that Kazmir is going to help them get into the playoffs, Dubbya must be running the team again. I just don't see it.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
This is giving me a headache
1st hes going no where, then he’s coming here, then he is going to LA, then staying again and now to us
Something needs to happen one way or the other soon at least
1. James Shields 2. Scott Kazmir 3. Matt Garza 4. David Price 5. Jeff Niemann
rotoworld on us willing to give up Davis and the Sox not willing to give up Buccholz
The Red Sox and Rays are both talking to the Indians about acquiring Victor Martinez and Cliff Lee.
According to Sherman, the Rays are willing to include top-prospect Wade Davis in a possible deal, while the Red Sox are still balking at Clay Buchholz. According to the report, the Giants are considering a deal for Martinez while the Rangers and Brewers have interest in Lee. Sherman cites a club executive as saying he would bet “1,000 percent” that Cleveland deals Lee and Martinez, due to financial concerns.
1. James Shields 2. Scott Kazmir 3. Matt Garza 4. David Price 5. Jeff Niemann
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