Navarro vs. Hernandez: More Analysis Behind the Dish
Over the past few weeks, DRB has looked at how the starting pitching rotation has fared with Dioner Navarro behind the plate compared to when Michel Hernandez is catching. The first piece Evaluating the Ray's Starting Pitching Performance Across Catchers took a look at each pitcher's FIP components, K/9, BB/9, and HR/9 with each catcher. Yesterday R.J. Anderson took a look at The Michel Hernandez Effect on James Shields by coming up with run values. He utilized In his conclusion he stated there was clear evidence that James Shields has had better results when Michel Hernandez was catching. However, after looking at the overall pitch selection and catcher framework using Pitch F/X, Anderson derived that it most likely was do to luck.
I decided to do the same across the entire rotation. It is important to not that R.J. and I did not use the same calculation for outs. He opted for AB-Hits, while I chose to use true outs with 1/3 of an inning representing one out. While this will change the numbers, the trend across catchers should remain somewhat stable.
Follow below the jump for more
First, the run values, for a longer explanation see R.J's postWalk: 0.32
Single: 0.48
Double: 0.78
Triple: 1.06
Home run: 1.4
Out: -0.28
Now let's take a look at the results for each pitcher-catcher battery:
| MH Starts | DN Starts | MH RV | DN RV | MH RV/St | DN RV St | |
| Price | 4 | 7 | -0.64 | 8.84 | -0.16 | 1.26 |
| Niemann | 2 | 17 | -2.62 | -7.70 | -1.31 | -0.45 |
| Shields | 9 | 13 | -6.06 | 1.66 | -0.67 | 0.13 |
| Kazmir | 3 | 11 | -2.14 | 12.46 | -0.71 | 1.13 |
| Sonny | 5 | 10 | 4.44 | 4.98 | 0.89 | 0.50 |
| Garza | 4 | 16 | -9.6 | -12.96 | -2.40 | -0.81 |
| Total | -4.37 | 1.76 |
Only Andy Sonnanstine had a lower run value per start (lower is better) with Dioner Navarro, a .39 margin. One trip across all six pitchers results in 6.13 Runs lower for Michel Hernandez which equates to over half a win. Certainly sample size issues make the difference larger, but between the Fielding Independant Pitching analysis and now the defensive dependant Run Value analysis, there seems to be a yet to be explainable difference between Navarro and Hernandez. Let's look a little further.
Here are the top 10 individual Game Scores according to Baseball-Reference.com:
| Jun 3 | KCR | 91 | Niemann | Navi |
| Apr 30 | BOS | 86 | Garza | Hernandez |
| Jul 24 | TOR | 78 | Garza | Hernandez |
| May 19 | OAK | 78 | Shields | Hernandez |
| Jun 24 | PHI | 76 | Garza | Navi |
| Apr 12 | BAL | 73 | Shields | Navi |
| Jul 10 | OAK | 76 | Niemann | Navi |
| Jun 4 | KCR | 70 | Shields | Hernandez |
| Jun 20 | NYM | 71 | Shields | Hernandez |
| Apr 23 | SEA | 69 | Shields | Navi |
Each catcher has caught for 5 of the top 10 game scores. However Navarro has caught in 74 games, compared to just 27 for Hernandez. What about the top 10 FIP performances?
| Date | Opp | FIP | Pitcher | Catcher |
| May 30 | MIN | 0.82 | Price | Hernandez |
| Jul 24 | TOR | 0.95 | Garza | Hernandez |
| Jun 4 | KCR | 1.15 | Shields | Hernandez |
| Apr 30 | BOS | 1.37 | Garza | Hernandez |
| Jun 3 | KCR | 1.48 | Niemann | Navarro |
| Jul 21 | CHW | 1.48 | Niemann | Navarro |
| Jun 25 | PHI | 1.59 | Sonnanstine | Navarro |
| Jun 20 | NYM | 1.82 | Shields | Hernandez |
| Apr 21 | SEA | 1.90 | Sonnanstine | Navarro |
| Jun 9 | LAA | 2.04 | Shields | Navarro |
Again 5 and 5 with Hernandez claiming the top 4.
Perhaps it is just luck. The body of evidence suggests to me that there is probably some truth to the argument that Hernandez is a better defensive staff handler than Navarro. At least enough to keep digging deeper, at why.......
36 comments
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Comments
Do we have a more depressing position than C?
by Raymondo on Jul 29, 2009 12:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No, but there always has to be a most depressing position
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 29, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll have to do the pitchfx work to see if the pitch breakdowns are different for any of the other starters.
But my heavens that doesn’t look good for Navarro if it’s a staff wide trend.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 29, 2009 12:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How much could it be sample size/competition?
Did either of you look at something along the lines of games caught against good offenses?
by Suttree on Jul 29, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the SSS certainly magnifies the difference
but I still suspect there is a difference.
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 29, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't be shcoked. There's a pretty apparent difference between the two when you watch the game - though I don't think Michele makes that play at first last night off Kapler's bad throw.
by Suttree on Jul 29, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keep in mind
b/c I used all outs (1/3 of an inning), a lot of catcher-dependant plays are factored into this such as caught stealing, or putouts at the plate.
Why would Michel not have made that play?
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 29, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Navarro needs someone to defend him irrationally.
by Suttree on Jul 29, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 29, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It just seems that had Michel made it that comment could jsut as easily read Navarro would not have
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 29, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just here to protect my boy.
Fatties unite.
by Suttree on Jul 29, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We did with Shields (MH had the tougher schedule)
It doesn’t matter as much across the staff as typically MH catches 1 game per series.
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 29, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So is Shields better with Hernandez or does Shields make Hernandez look better?
Hernandez has more starts with him than any other two starters combined, so it pretty much skews everything in his favor. Last night with DN/Kaz vs Monday with MH/Shields has to say something.
by Doyouseeit? on Jul 29, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shields game with MH is in the data
Last night is not as I finished this yesterday afternoon. It’s something I will continue to monitor as the SS grows. The # of Shields starts isn’t a disadvatage, if anything its the most accurate #. The point is the trend is across all pitchers.
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 29, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't personally like this type of analysis. The idea is that the catcher contributed to the happening of a home run/triple/etc.
and, for the sake of this argument, assumes all the blame is on them (because the entire run value of the start is taken in favor or against the catcher), which it quite obviously isn’t. Not to mention the small sample size issues and the fact that they were not playing the same lineups every game and I think this is a little shaky.
by Navi's_Navy on Jul 29, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
maybe I would warm up to this if we took an analysis on where the pitch was called, what the league-wide tendency is for that pitch in that area of the strike zone, and count that against the catcher
but not the total run value of a start…
by Navi's_Navy on Jul 29, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT: Lee to Philly
remember it was Raymondo who told you he’d go to the NL
by Raymondo on Jul 29, 2009 2:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes you did. And judging by the package, you are clearly right that it was of utmost importance to Shapiro
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 29, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm assuming you mean they got screwed (Indians)
by Raymondo on Jul 29, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems like they could have done better
No way of knowing for sure
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 29, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
marson, carrasco, and donald are all pretty good prospects
top 75-125 type range
by Navi's_Navy on Jul 29, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Donald is a util player. I think Carrasco has given up 2 HRs this morning to little leaguers. Marson's above average, but why bother with Santana?
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
by P Brady on Jul 29, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How deep must the Phillies system be if they can not give up like their top 3/4 spects and get the reigning Cy Young award winner?
Or is Shapiro that dumb?
by matthan on Jul 29, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Shapiro is that dumb.
And it enrages me. We probably could have gotten away with McGee, Barnese, Morlan, and Townsend at that rate.
by Suttree on Jul 29, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OR Cromer
Hes in AAA!
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 29, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Minor league OT: Justin Ruggiano is on the inactive list
Come ON Pat the Bust, Navi can not have more homers than you
by Some other guy who does not care on Jul 29, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i disagree with the comment about Donald, he is having a poor year, but I wouldn't be surprised if Brendan Harris is the worst case scenario or him, and Carlos Carrasco should at least be a passable major league starter if not a 2 or 3
which could happen if he ever develops the velocity scouts have said he should
by Navi's_Navy on Jul 29, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...motherfucker
2009 Rays Baseball: Still Kings of the Sunshine State
by JMB on Jul 29, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stealing from the Padres???
Does anyone foresee us partnering with another team who would presumably take Pena while we scoop up Gonzalez and but not necessarily Heath Bell.
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
by RaysnNoles on Jul 29, 2009 4:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That would be lovely
Pena + Davis + Barnese for Gonzalez
by matthan on Jul 29, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is taking Pena?
Padres are not taking his salary and we are not going to float it.
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
by RaysnNoles on Jul 29, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Ryan Doumit even close to be available because Clement was traded to them?
"Doesn't Manny Ramirez look like the monster from Predator??" - Will Farrell as Harry Carey
by Gone Phishing on Jul 29, 2009 10:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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