Ryan Doumit: A Possible Alternative To Victor Martinez?
After yesterday's trade of Cliff Lee to the Philadephia Philles, and the news that the Rays have bowed out of the Roy Halladay sweepstakes, the Tampa Bay rumor mill has taken a significant hit. Not that I thought the Rays would actually acquire one of the frontline starters, but it was fun to imagine. While it seems the Rays are out of the starting pitching arms race, the Victor Martinez rumors remain.
I heard on the radio yesterday that one exec said if the Indians move one of the two, they almost certainly will move the other. The Red Sox are believed to be the favorite for Martinez, but the Rays have been linked for a few weeks as well. Acquiring a catcher with Martinez's offensive skills would provide quite the upgrade to the Rays especially with the current back stops of Dioner Navarro and Michel Hernandez hitting .224/.252/.327 and .231/.271/.297 respectively. If the Red Sox do succeed in their efforts to land V-Mart, the Rays may not be shutout of an offensive upgrade at catcher.
Let me start this by saying I have heard no rumblings, grumblings, rumors or whispers of the sort, but am merely suggesting that Andrew Friedman give a call to Neal Huntington and acquire about the availability of catcher Ryan Doumit. Again, this is just me rosterbating while I still can before the deadline, and I'm not even sure the Pirates are actively trying to move Doumit, but given their recent moves, I think it's worth a phone call at least. I know the two have each others number (remember Jason Bay Is a Ray!).
The Pirates have been unloading their players even before the deadline was the hot topic of the league. They've already traded Nate McClouth, Adam LaRoche and yesterday moved Jack Wilson, Ian Snell and Freddy Sanchez. Doumit would be a logic choice as next on the chopping block.
The Pirates are also running out of room for first base/catcher types. They acquired Jeff Clement, who technically is still a catcher. They have Garrett Jones at first base with Steve Pearce roaming in the organization. Don't forget the Pirates also drafted a catcher, Tony Sanchez, with their top pick in the 2009 draft. That's a lot of players vying for playing time between two positions. With so many available options, and Doumit making the most money of the group, logic would say he could be had.
So how would Doumit benefit the Rays lineup? First off, he is not Victor Martinez. Martinez is a much better and more proven hitter, but he would also cost more in terms of a trade and contract. Second off, he is better than Dioner Navarro. Doumit hasn't looked great in his 27 games, but his career numbers are that of an above average hitting catcher .276/.335/.457, .340 wOBA. The one flaw that sticks out to me is his inability to walk, but we are comparing him to Dioner Navarro here so that doesn't really go against Doumit.
Doumit's contract is also pretty affordable especially compared to that of Martinez. He is making $2.05 million in 2009, so the Rays would owe him less than million dollars this year. After this year, he is guaranteed two more years at a total of $9.15 million dollars. He is due to make $3.1 million dollars in 2010 and $5.1 million in 2011. He also has two team options for 2012 and 2013 but at a combined $15.5 million those seem unlikely to be picked up given the fact that he will over the age of 30 when those options are up. If Martinez were to be traded, his 2010 option jumps to $7.5 million with another possible million dollars worth of incentives. The Rays could get two years of Doumit for a little more than the same price as one year of Martinez. Again, Martinez is the better player, but over the course 2007 and 2008, Doumit actually had a slightly higher WAR and is two years younger.
What does all this mean? Probably nothing unless Andrew Friedman, James Click or Dan Feinstein wake up this morning, read this and say "Hey, great idea." However, a move between the two teams makes sense to me, it's the trade deadline and a million scenarios are being thrown around and we are a blog, what good do we know anyway. What the Rays would give up in getting Doumit, I have no idea, but I'm sure Andrew and Neal could figure it out.
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Does anyone know
if they consider Cedeno anything more than a stop gap at shortstop? We know from last years trade deadline that they had their eye on Brignac and Friedman confirmed this when I talked with him that summer. In an effort to stockpile young talent, acquiring a top young shortstop would be a great move for them. Does anyone think Brignac and Barnese would be a good place to start?
by BossmanJunior333 on Jul 30, 2009 7:17 AM EDT reply actions
Where do you get 100 games from?
Assuming he will get injured?
by BossmanJunior333 on Jul 30, 2009 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
2006 – played 61 – missed 69 games to hamstring
2007 – played 83 – missed 26 to wrist, 20 to ankle
2008 – played 116 – missed 20 to thumb, 5 to concussion, flu 2x
2009 – played 28 – missed 73 to wrist
seems a bit steep even though Doumit when healthy is a good hitter
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by Tommy Rancel on Jul 30, 2009 7:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Love Doumit
But lots of injuries… hamstring, wrist, thumb, wrist again… of course he is a catcher after all. C is a black hole and just has to be upgraded somehow either through trade or promotion.
I know its probably not true, but it seems like Navi or Michel are always up in a big situation
I can think of two last night, but it always seems like when we get something going one of them with their sub .300 obp’s is up
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by Tommy Rancel on Jul 30, 2009 8:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Do you really feel down by four
with two outs and Mo on the mound in the bottom of the 9th as a “big situation”?
Just sayin
If he gets on base we're an MVB grand slam away from tie game
Of course!
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by Tommy Rancel on Jul 30, 2009 8:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The Pirates have done a good job this deadline. I think they maximized value pretty well
This leads me to think that getting Vmart could actually be cheaper. Shapiro literally gave Lee away. You can make a case that Snell/Wilson netted nearly as much as Lee/Francisco. We might as well pick on the crappy GM.
The good news is we're only 4 GB in the WC chase
but does anyone see this team really getting hot and clicking on all cykinders for a sustained amount of time?
What happened to that "you can't make up losses" bullshit?
Do you even believe what you type anymore?
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 30, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I find it really hard to conceive of a collection of players with this professional and amateur track record suddenly losing all recognition of the strike zone.
So long, Sweet Lime!
If you had Kaz, Garza, and Price throwing you BP you might not know what a strike is either.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 30, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
If those are our bp throwers, then I've got an idea about their problems, too.
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 30, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 30, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Worth a call
All talk about the Pirates seems to focus on 2011, and Doumit isn’t likely to be the catcher then. They don’t really view Cedeno as a long-term option at SS, mostly someone to get through this season.
Brignac for Doumit certainly improves our team quite a bit this year. Plus, when Doumit isn’t catching, he could DH for us. Looking at both this year, and last, how can it be so hard to find a decent DH?
It's not hard to find a decent DH
We have one on our bench named Willy Aybar. That’s what makes the Pat Burell acquisition so frustrating in retrospect. Although I was more than willing to give the FO the benfeit of the doubt at the time, it was a little perplexing to spend so much on a DH when they already weren’t sure how to get Aybar more at bats. Then again, it looked like a bargain at the time.
As for catcher, am I the only one who thinks we should at the very least bring up Jaso to see what he can do. I know there are some questions about his defense, but at some point we really need to see if he is capable of handling the role at the big league level going forward. He’s not exactly lighting it up offensively this year, but he looks to have a pretty good K/BB ratio. hernandez has been a nice story and seems like a nice enough guy, but would you rather have him taking at bats or Jaso?
Aybar's the best bench player in the league, but he's severly overrated by most Rays fans.
He hit 253/326/410 last season. His wOBA was 321. His wOBA this season is 360. As a starter, he’d be a platoon player at best.
How do you know he's overrated? He's 26 and he's only had a total of 822 at bats at the major league level.
My point is that I don’t think we know exactly what his numbers would be if he played everyday. Many players perform better offensively when they get more at bats.
A quick look at his numbers from this year seem to indicate that he would be no worse than middle of the pack compared to the regular DHs in the league. Burrell is pretty much at the bottom in every offensive category.
Just comparing him to Burrell so far this year, his OPS is 147 points higher. His K/BB ratio is almost 1:1 while Burell’s isn’t even close to that level. He even has one more home run in 68 fewer at bats. I’m not saying that you couldn’t possibly find someone through a trade who would be even better as the DH, but it stands to reason that he would have been a much more productive DH this season than Burell has been.
Overrated in the sense that they believe he should be a full time DH.
Comparing him to Burrell isn’t exactly fair, considering Jonny Gomes would probably be an upgrade over Burrell at this point.
The thing i can't understand about Aybar is that they haven't tried to teach him to play outfield like they did with Zobrist last year.
At the time they said it would allow them to get more at bats for Zobrist, and it certainly did that. Now that Zobrist is playing everyday it would seem like Aybar could fill his old super utility role if he could learn to play RF. Seems worth a shot to keep our RF options a little more open going forward.
I don't think he's exceptionally athletic or anything
but if he has the reflexes and range to play in the infield I think he could be decent out there. You might have to pull him for a defensive replacement if we are ahead in the ninth. His arm should be strong enough to play there.
Catcher is a tough position to take a chance on someone
I wouldn’t recommend bringing in anyone that’s not proven at this point in the season. C matters with too much more than just his bat.
Results have shown that its pretty tough for the Rays to find a decent DH.
True, but we play Hernandez there and he is a career minor leaguer.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t trade for someone better, but if we don’t I’d rather take a chance on Jaso because his bat should be an upgrade. That and his defense couldn’t be much worse than Navarro’s has been this season. Not to mention that Navarro still doesn’t seem to know how to call a game.
For some reason my reply button isn't working but I agree with the above post
Doumit can’t possibly be in the Pirates plans for 2011 or even next year-ish. Clement and Tony Sanchez 2-3 years down the line…….I can see Doumit coming to us today or tomorrow (though the likelihood of that happening is slim to none)
"Doesn't Manny Ramirez look like the monster from Predator??" - Will Farrell as Harry Carey
OT: Attn moderators
Check out the comment history of DRB user “Tudd”. Every comment he has made has been Spam
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Took care of it.
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 30, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I think we're all missing the obvious solution:
Spring Toe Nash
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Let's work together to combat Terminal Rocco Disease.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 30, 2009 10:01 AM EDT reply actions
We aren't getting V-Mart
There is no reason to get this guy. His arm sucks, we would barely use him at catcher and he would only be taking away at-bats from Pena and Burrell (and yes while I do understand that Burrell with less at-bats isn’t a bad thing, we are still paying him $8 million a year and I rather have an $8 million a year active PTB then an $8 million bench player)
"Doesn't Manny Ramirez look like the monster from Predator??" - Will Farrell as Harry Carey
Not sure I agree.
You would rather pay PTB $8 mil to DH and suck horribly for us than pay PTB $8 mil to ride the pine and have someone else put up better numbers in that slot? Why?
You’re paying him either way – why not have the better production on the field.
Also, Vmart may not be the greatest catcher. He may not even be “average” but the boost his bat gives is WAY outweighs what Navi is currently producing. It’s certainly and upgrade. This is my opinion, as we all know how difficult catchers’ defensive metrics are to quantify.
I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer to drink WAY too much of it.
by stpetelawyer on Jul 30, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I know we cant quantify defense for catchers
but is there an argument that he (V-Mart) is substantially worse than Navi defensively? No question his offense would exceed what the fat one brings us.
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There is no question that
Martinez is a significant upgrade offensively over Navarro.
But, if we are simply looking at the disappearance of our offense in July, the difference is not quite so stark. In fact, if Martinez had hit in TB the way he has in Cleveland for the past month, I think we would all be seeing him as Pat Burrell part 2. His line for the last 28 days is .169/.270/.234 with 2 doubles and 1 home run. This after a disappointing June also.
In the meantime, Navarro over the last 28 days is hitting .271/.294/.417 with 4 doubles and a home run.
I don’t mean to suggest that Martinez will continue to hit so badly or that Navarro will likely outproduce him over the next 2 months, but that Navarro has not been the crucial problem in July and that had we Martinez instead, we would not be in better shape. (assuming those performances had been the same.)
I wonder how quickly Barry Bonds can get into playing shape.
If we don't get VMart, I'd rather just let Navi work it out.
He’s looking better, working the count a bit more. Tex gobbled up a hit for him last night after a sweet AB.
So long, Sweet Lime!
Was anyone else surprised the first time they saw Cliff Lee was white?
Don’t know why.
by ChrisSimmsSpleen on Jul 30, 2009 11:05 AM EDT reply actions
Michael Saunders being white caught me off guard.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 30, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Reggie Willits
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 30, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Michel Hernandez being a man?
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 30, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Juan Pierre not being French, or from Creole country
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 30, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Marquis Grissom and Jacque Jones would've formed the ultimate faux French outfield.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 30, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Eat your heart out Jeff Francour
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by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 30, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
this I will agree with
reggie…..white?
"Doesn't Manny Ramirez look like the monster from Predator??" - Will Farrell as Harry Carey
by Gone Phishing on Jul 30, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
D.J. Jones
The named combined with his scouting reports.
He's white???
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by FreeZorilla on Jul 30, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep
Search his name in Google Images and you will see his baseball card.
It is.
But Josh Willingham is black. He’s just really light skinned, alopecia I think. ;)
by floridaroar on Jul 30, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I was surprised that Jimmy Rollins and Ryan Howard were both black.
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 30, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Well yeah, black players don't play first base.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 30, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Please calm down, RJ.
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 30, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorta speaking of the Pirates
Does anyone doubt that we could now get Posey/Baumgarner for Craw and maybe Niemann?
So long, Sweet Lime!
I think the Giants are retarded enough to make that move.
Anytime you can give up some of your best 6 prospects for Ryan Garko and Freddy Sanchez, you gotta make that move.
That's pretty much been my point from moment one.
Somewhere, rglass’ ears are aflame at the mention of Posey in a DRB thread.
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 30, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
call about it
but the injuries and the prospect loss might not be worth it. I’m sure they’re riding high on getting Alderson, and we can’t give up that much value, even for a better player.
The stabs at Navi’s OBP should rebound, he has over two full seasons of At bats where his walk rate was between 6-8%, not great, but not 2% either.
OT: Reported by BSPN that Manny and Ortiz tested positive for PED's in 2003
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What's amazing is the fact that these samples were supposed to be destroyed
and here we are getting a who’s who of baseball (at that time) that were on PED’s.
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why?
Everyone was doing PEDs, only the Patriots were taping other teams.
Also, the entire nature of the event.
Physically injecting something into your body to alter your ability is slightly different from trying to gain a strategic advantage.
And to clarify, the Patriots weren’t the first team to ever do that, just the only to get caught.
come again?
Trying to “gain a competitive advantage” by doing something that was against the rules….isn’t that cheating?
And yes, I’d agree that physically injecting things into your body to alter your ability is bad….but it was also very common-place. I’m sure the teams they beat to win the WS were full of players also doing it.
That sounds like a player trying to rationalize hitting the juice
but it was also very common-place
I’m sure the teams they beat to win the WS were full of players also doing it.
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not going to argue that
That’s true, and I’m not really defending the BloSox players…just not surprised. And wouldn’t be more surprised to find out the entire team shared needles before the games.
Just saying that it’s not a whole lot worse than that Patriots cheating.
Should we take the Niners' championships away in the 80s' because they'd regularly cut off the opponents communication gear for the first 15 plays?
Actually Foxboro is notorious for the opponents' communications equipment not working properly
Just ask Tony Dungy. It happened more than once while he was coaching the Colts.
I'm not even amazed at this anymore
It’s a foregone conclusion. Assuming the report is true.
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