Jeff Niemann's Homer Rate
There seems to be a misconception as to why people are concerned about Jeff Niemann heading forward. It's not because he's inexperienced or anything silly like that, it's because history is against him.
Since 2004 and including 2009, 92 pitchers have held groundball percentages under 39%, Niemann amongst them. Only five possessed home run per fly ball percentages lower than Niemann, those are:
Chris Young 2007 29% GB, 5% HR/FB
Dallas Braden 2009 38% GB, 5.5% HR/FB
Tim Wakefield 2009 36% GB, 6.4% HR/FB
Edwin Jackson 2009 39% GB, 7.3% HR/FB
Daisuke Matsuzaka 2008 39% GB, 7.5% HR/FB
For reference Niemann sits at 39% and 7.7 HR/FB.
So, of those 92, we have six cases of 39% or less and HR/FB% below 7.7%, and of those six, four are occurring this year. For the 72 pre-2009 cases of pitchers with 39% or less groundballs induced, the average HR/FB% is 11.7. If any of your friends are gullible enough to bet that these 2009ers won't give up more home runs from this point on than they did in the first half, take that bet.
What does that mean for Niemann? Well, it doesn't mean you should expect him to give up 14-15% HR/FB to ‘even things out' over the rest of the year. It does mean that you should expect his HR/FB% to finish closer to the 11-12% league average range. Right now, about 72% of the total batters Niemann has faced have put the ball into play, meaning no home runs, no walks, no strikeouts, etc., and if we expect another 300-350 batters faced, what type of homerun numbers should we expect?
If the trend continues, 244 batters will put the ball into play or homer. If NIemann's 45% fly ball rate continues, that's 110 fly balls. Assuming he gives up a league average 11% HR/FB, there's 12 dingers right there. Knock a homer or two off that total, given that long balls are slightly suppressed at Tropicana Field and that some of those fly balls will be of the infield variety. You're still looking at ~20 jacks, roughly equal to Andy Sonnanstine or Matt Garza's total last year, and in less innings.
Adjusting for ~160-170 innings equals 1.10 home runs per nine. Throw in 5 strikeouts per nine and 3.8 walks per nine then go fishing for comparisons. You get:
Jeff Suppan: 4.9/3.7/1.2
Micah Owings 5.4/4.4/1.3
Vincente Padilla 4.9/4.1/0.8
The FIP on those guys: 5.22, 5.31, 4.67
4.7-5.2 seems like the range we're dealing with, but THT has NIemann's xFIP in the 5.5-5.6 range. The reason his xFIP is higher than the rest of the real FIP is because Owings gives up an equal amount of grounders while maintaining 10% HR/FB, and Suppan/ Padilla are groundballers. Niemann shares the most qualities with the worst of the trio.%.
Unless Niemann starts getting more groundballs, it's not a matter of if his home run rate regresses, but when.
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Please hold out till september
Niemann, We like your pitching (a bit) and do not want you regress by giving up a lot of homers
Come ON Pat the Bust, Navi can not have more homers than you
How is one supposed to react?
Niemann should never have beeen inserted in the rotation is what i get out of this
I think this is funny, because I'm assuming it's a reference to Edwin.
Who, uh, has a similar issue to Niemann. Of course, Edwin’s getting more strikeouts, but eventually he’s gonna start giving up home runs.
Given his youth and inexperience
is this something in upcoming years that could be remedied either with delivery tweaks or other mechanical issues? Or is this merely looking at this one year with no changes made?
I’d hope that if/when it becomes a glaring issue, that Hickey or other personnel (Neimann included) would look to find and correct the issue.
Hopefully it’s correctable because I’d rather not have a Padilla, Suppan or Owings clone.
Where does our rotation as a whole
stand this year as compared to last year. Is the starting pitchign producing better results? We’ve had some more moving parts (Sonny down, Price up, Kaz down and up) as compared to last year, but I’d be interested to see how oru metrics compare, and where the weak links are. Is it our HR/FB rate? I know a month or so ago we were striking out fewer batters, particularly Kaz
Is that 2008 info
for the whole year, or through a certain point? I dont see too many positives there.
Can someone change my handle to callmetaternuts: Championship Edition?
No, not really.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
Have you taken a look at who's head blogger at Buc Em lately?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
So, can we get a "TRADE NIEMANN" thread going now?
Or is this essentially it?
In which case, let’s get something decent for him and bring up Wade motherfucking Davis!
Niemann will be a prime piece to trade this offseason
His numbers are going to regress. However even if he puts up league average from here on out, his overall numbers will still be better than league average. Plus he will have quite a bit of wins. It’ll be easy to see why a so-so GM will overvalue Niemann.
His underlying numbers do not project long term success. However we can parlay short term success into a better piece.
Weren't the Angels asking about him
Niemann for Napoli? I have no idea if this is a fair trade or not. Just throwing out a random idea
The problem with assuming regression with Niemann.
As I see it, he is a guy getting his first taste of MLB experience. To expect his other numbers to stay equal while regressing one back is an exercise in futility. Who knows what he’ll do going forward, but I would bet that his K and BB numbers get better as he gets used to facing big leaguers.
by rglass44 on Jul 6, 2009 3:08 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Right, but assuming HR regression isn't a stretch.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody is saying he can't improve.
But even if he starts striking out 7 per nine and the walks remain static, he’s still going to be giving up more longballs. His FIP would look better, but the point of the article still reigns true.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't say that is entirely true
If his K/9 increases because his K% increases that means he’ll be facing less batters. Sure his HR/FB may increase, but since he’d be giving up less batted balls that doesn’t guarantee that hell be giving up more home runs.
nobody is saying he can't improve but...
most articles on this site only speak of regression and it’s time to ship him out. Yes, his FB% indicates a regression in HR. But Niemann can also improve his other peripherals as others have said here. That being said, if the Rays could do a Niemann for Napoli trade, we’d be foolish not to do it. But unless the Rays can get a high-end catcher for him, it makes more sense to keep him. A Niemann for Chris Davis trade wouldn’t be bad either. It all depends how others value Niemann. At this point, a very low cost starter still has to have high value to the Rays who could also trade Kazmir if he continues to progress, and his 8+mil salary.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 7, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
very true
unless he reduces his fly ball rate, he would not mesh well in texas.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 7, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
for the record
Napoli is on pace for a 24 HR, .288/.376/.497 season in less than 500AB. Has also crushed lefties this year with a 1.400 OPS so far. If he even has average defense and can call a decent game, he’d look awfully good in a Rays uni.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 7, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point
The thing that scares me most about Niemann is a lack of swinging strikes.
This year:
Sonny 6.8%
Niemann 5.9%
Velocity is everything!
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
question is, how do you induce more grounders without making significant changes to your mechanics?
i’m not sure it’s just a matter of “getting the ball down in the zone,” since skilled hitters can hit fly balls off pitches low in the zone too. interesting to think about.
Honestly with his height....
If he’s getting the ball down in the zone it is much, much tougher on hitters.
How good we he look in a Padres uniform?

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