Out of Range: A Look At Jason Bartlett's Downward Defensive Trends
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 12:53 PM EDT
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PrintWhile scanning Fangraphs last night looking for something to post in this space (thanks West Coast games for making us work harder during the day), I decided it had been a while since I looked at Jason Bartlett's defensive numbers. We all know Bartlett was un-Bartlett-like defensively last season. Most of us agreed that knee injuries probably limited his defensive abilities and he would regress upward in 2009. In the beginning of the season this was true as Bartlett had a 3.0 WAR through early May. Remember UZR isn't a predictive tool and by June, Bartlett had slipped down to 1.9, but was still 5th in the AL among shortstops.
After the ankle injury, Bartlett has been in a UZR free fall According to the latest update, his UZR was a -4.0. Yes, a negative 4.0, or the third worst total in the AL. The good news is MVB is far from the worst as Yuniesky Betancourt has earned a -12.9 UZR and the latest man to try to replace Bartlett in Minnesota, Orlando Cabrera has a -11.4. However, a -4.0 is pretty startling. Errors have not been his problem as his ErrR of 0.6 is around the middle of the pack. Where Bartlett is hurting is range and turning double plays
His RngR of -2.8 is the bottom third of the league only ahead names like Cristan Guzman, Miguel Tejada as well as Betancourt and Cabrera. When it comes to double plays, his -1.8 DPR is tied for dead last in the major leagues with Derek Jeter. Speaking of Jeter, after years of taking abuse for his defense, the Captain is experiencing a defensive surge. His 5.0 UZR is nine runs better than Bartlett. Of course, if you look at the last three or even five years of defense for Jeter you'll quickly realize that at age 35 this season looks like the definition of a fluke.
If Bartlett's defensive numbers hold true through the end of the season, we will be staring a disturbing trend right in the face. Since 2005, Bartlett's UZR has dropped by at least two runs in each season. Since 2006, the peak year of his range, his RngR has dropped three runs or more each season. I know all short stops are created differently, but Tom Tango found their defensive abilities begin to decay between ages 24-28. Add in multiple leg injuries over the past two seasons and this could be a real problem for a player who is about to turn 30 in the offseason.
|
|
UZR |
Rngr |
|
2005 |
14.4 |
12.5 |
|
2006 |
11.5 |
14.9 |
|
2007 |
7.8 |
11.9 |
|
2008 |
2 |
4.8 |
|
2009 |
-4 |
-2.8 |
Once again, I'll remind everyone that UZR is not a predictive tool. Bartlett could suddently regain his 2006 form and go defensive gangbusters over the final 50+ games. Additionally, defensive metrics are hardly perfect. I would suspect that the Rays (looking at you James Click) might have a little something better than UZR on their hands, but if you look at the data available for the last three seasons, and in this case four or five, the trend does not favor Bartlett.
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Sell high on him this off-season and let Reid start 2010
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
Bartlett for Posey.
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Aug 11, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
If we pulled that off
I would go nuts
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 11, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously that would never happen. I know this.
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 11, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh right I forgot.
I thought we were going to get Posey for Barty. When yesterday I said I dont even know if we could get him for CC. You know what I love about DRaysBay? If i just wrote “Friedman’d” in that reply, everyone wouldve known I was joking.
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 11, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Im not angry silly.
Im about to go get chili dogs at Coney in a few. You cant be angry when that is in your future.
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 11, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
God I fucking love Coney Island.
The introduction of the Strawberry Shake literally changed the game.
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I havent been able to switch from vanilla
maybe today is the day…
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 11, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
DOIT DOIT DOIT
2 all the way + strawberry shake.
Or 3 if you don’t have to work in the afternoon
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I always go 3 no onions
but today im going strawberry. youre life is on the line here
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 11, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
NO ONIONS!?!?!?!
Do you knock over trashcans and forage in there for dinner?
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Im going to Coney now
with the potential of the strawberry shake, and the never dying hope of Raymondo being banned when I get back, this could be a historic day. Fan Post on strawberry shake on my return.
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 11, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Auto-rec
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Bartlett for Parker Posey
We need a slumpbuster
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I'll take that right now
I’m in about an 0-fer 2 weeks at the moment
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 11, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
According to Tango's studies
There is likely to be a bigger drop off age 30-31 than age 29-30 meaning next year for MVB. His works also say that at Brignac’s age he is in peak of his range
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 1:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
p-value of fun in this thread is off the charts.
(is that good?)
So long, Sweet Lime!
by PlayOnWords on Aug 11, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
We don't know.
Because MGL’s UZR creating ways don’t allow for us to use splits.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
This
Just looking at where he was at various points in the season it’s been declining even before the injury. I’m sure the injury hasn’t helped.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 12:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
did I see the word Coghlan?
I would love me some Brignac/Coghlan MI next year. Not sure if the Marlins will be interested in any of our parts we will be moving though
He means Coghlan destroying Aki's knee
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 1:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
There can be only one
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 11, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
and coghlan is expected to be a bad defender from what I remember
we don’t want a young zorilla… the young zorilla was really really bad…
Bartlett for Pujols
The time has finally come
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
I definately think we should sell high on Bartlett this off-season
while it may not be the popular move from a PR stand point, Reid is more than ready to take over, especially on the defensive side. I mentioned it last year that I thought Reid was about equal to JB as far as defense is concerned and that he was going to get better while JB declined and that is what has happened. Fortunately for us he still has the reputation of a really good defender (not saying he is bad but his reputation> ability). He is also still relatively young so he should be able to get a team at least another 3-4 years of solid offensive productions (not .340, but probably around .300).
I can't wait for the prospects that comes out of that
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 11, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
You're absolutely dreaming
They have Yunel and only Dayton would entertain trading a top-5 leaguewide prospect for a SS 2 years from FA.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 11, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
any ideas of what kind of prospects he would bring in return
I know he isn’t going to bring anything near what C.C. would bring but could he net us a top guy of more likely a couple B prospects.
2 years of arb after this season is enticing, using BTB's Trade Value Calculator I get JB's value at:
So assuming Jayble’s is a 3.05 WAR Player over the next 2 seasons, and ends up Type-B status, he is worth a surplus of 11M over his assumed arbitrated salary. Using V. Wang’s reseach we can see that $11M on the farm is worth about 2 grade B hitters (feel free to do your own mix-and-match. Coming into the season Sickels had Desmond Jennings as our only Grade B hitter. Sickels grades kind of harsh, which you will notice Wang gave him a slight bump, so lets look at some B- hitters (keep in mind this is coming into the season). The Rays have Jake Jeffries.
HERE is a look at top-50 hitting prospects from 2004, this could be a big help. Here are all the B hitters, with Sickels’ comments on where they are now:
34) Jason Lane, OF, Houston Astros, Grade B: Effective in 2004 and 2005, then tailed off fast.
35) Chad Tracy, 3B, Arizona Diamondbacks, Grade B: Very good 2004-2006, but has tailed off since then due to injury.
36) Chris Burke, 2B, Houston Astros, Grade B: Wasn’t hanlded well, bat stagnated, injuries, didn’t adjust his minor league numbers sufficiently.
37) Adrian Gonzalez, 1B, Texas Rangers, Grade B: Needed some adjustment time but a fine regular.
38) Justin Huber, C, New York Mets, Grade B: Traded to Royals, converted to first base, had some injuries, bat looks like it has topped out in Triple-A. Probable Bust.
39) Adam LaRoche, 1B, Atlanta Braves, Grade B: A solid regular.
40) Russ Adams, SS, Toronto Blue Jays, Grade B: Just didn’t hit in the majors.
41) J.J. Hardy, SS, Milwaukee Brewers, Grade B: Solid regular.
42) Corey Hart, 3B, Milwaukee Brewers, Grade B: Solid player.
43) Ian Stewart, 3B, Colorado Rockies, Grade B: Too soon to know for sure, but I still think he will be a solid player, though not a star.
44) Shin-soo Choo, OF, Seattle Mariners, Grade B: Career .291/.377/.493 hitter in 509 at-bats. Hard to call that a bust, even if he doesn’t get playing time.
45) Jeff Francouer, OF, Atlanta Braves, Grade B: Lack of plate discipline is holding him back and may ruin him.
46) Aaron Baldiris, 3B, New York Mets, Grade B: Bust. Line drive guy just didn’t develop enough.
47) Delwyn Young, 2B, Los Angeles Dodgers, Grade B: Looks like he is stuck as a role player.
48) Erick Aybar, SS, Anahiim Angels, Grade B: Still unclear how his career will develop.
49) Alberto Callaspo, 2B, Anaheim Angels, Grade B: He can hit a little, but perhaps not enough to be a full-time regular for a good team.
50) Cody Ross, OF, Detroit Tigers, Grade B: Career .261/.324/.493 line can’t be called bust. Useful bat.
I hope this is useful and I may turn this whole thing into a story since Barty will probably be traded it would be nice to know what to expect.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 11, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't wait until we trade Barty, CC, and Los and re-sign BJ to a long term deal in one off-season.
ps- all relievers in return.
So long, Sweet Lime!
in order for us to sustain success with our payroll trading away guys is neccesary
we just need to make sure we get the right guys back in return because we won’t be able to rely on top picks to get our superstars in the future (Upton, C.C., Longoria). Joyce, Brignac won’t be that big of a drop off from C.C., Barty, especially if it means we add a catcher that is a significant upgrade over Navi.
Well, of course. But the local media will literally shit a condominium complex when it happens.
So long, Sweet Lime!
We need more of those.
Maybe they can deposit one downtown?
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 11, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
John Romano almost passed out from passing The Sage when Derrick Brooks was cut.
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
it will be a little tougher because of the way the Marlins have been
we basically are going to have to do the same thing, except I think AF is a little smarter than whoever is down there. We should be able to sustain at worst a .500 season the year after our trading off people years and should be right back to 90 + wins within a year or two after. We just have to make smart trades and have some luck with the draft every now and than.
I don't know about that, the Marlins have been fielding playoff contenders the last two years on a 20m budget.
We’re doing it on 65million, albeit in a much tougher division.
they have been better but over the last 10 years or so (97 was the WS right)
they have had serious dropoff’s after their big season.
this is a dumb article
like worrrying about a car’s upholstery, when the engine’s about to blow
Only I get to do the silly metaphors
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Aug 11, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously?
Tommy spent like an hour and a half researching and writing this post and he has to deal with stuff like this?
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
It's just irritating.
If you want to argue against the point and all, go ahead, but “this is stupid” is probably a bad way to lead things off.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
it's just not relavent, imo
and this whole deal worrting about how good players are going to regress rather than when bad players start playing well
It has nothing to do with regressing.
And Bartlett is a Ray. It’s relevant.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
i could have and should have used a better choice of words
but i don’t think Barty’s d has really hurt this team, to the point we can’t wait for Briggy who can’t hit AAA pitching
.788 OPS in Durham.
What’s wrong with that?
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Jason Bartlett's last year in the minors
.779 OPS. And he was 26. But Briggy sucks.
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 11, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
where does reid brignac's name appear in the article?
Or how Barlett has hurt the team in 2009?
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 1:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
so looking at how our nearly 30 yr old ss is decling defensivel
For the last 5 years and is due to make a hefty raise next year when our payroll is slim isn’t relevant. Let’s talk about how we suck and strikeout too much instead.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 1:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Overpaying players is a good way to ensure this too.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
The thought of again trading two good players
disturbs the hell oput of me
we can't afford big time FA's and we won't have top 5 draft picks in the near future
the only way for us to best ensure success in the future is to trade guys before they get expensive and still have value so we have players to fill in when the next wave of guys is ready to be dealt. Don’t hate the playa hate the game.
say we give Bartlett a new nice contract and he has a season like PTB
my guess is you will be the first to be on here bitching about how we shouldn’t have wasted money on a guy on the downslide of his career.
Do you just strangle yourself while you watch the game, or are you more sublte, focusing on slowly cutting yourself every time the Rays make a mistake?
Oh, wait, that’s right, you don’t watch the games.
Liar
we saw him in the party deck during the boston series. Remember the guy with the mullet and double cowbells and was so drunk he almost went over the railing?
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 11, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Raymondo only comes to games when the Rays are losing
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
HEY-O!!!!!!!!
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
your cliches and vague remarks are useless, old man.
Seriously, though. That’s an idiotic statement. The season’s not over, so your statement is literally bankrupt.
Nice try, though.
kind of like coming in and saying "this is a dumb article"
durrrr
you can’t play both sides of the card, buddy
Selgy
Like this?
check the dates statman
by Raymondo on Jul 20, 2009 6:59 AM PDT on No Closer Needed: J.P. Howell Is A Bullpen Ace on DRaysBay
are you wearing Balfour PJ’s while posting?
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Or this?
So i guess answering your questions in a sensible manner isn’t what you’re looking for
by Raymondo on Jul 23, 2009 7:38 AM PDT on Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee? Why The Rays Should Trade For Cliff Lee on DRaysBay
you’d rather follow the sophmoric comedy of a jackass like FreeZo
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
You can't win
If you strike Raymondo down, He shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz
I didnt say that
but if you only go when we lose, and we have one of the best records at home, I dont think that would mean youve been there too many times.
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 11, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm so dissapointed with this team
realize this, we only are above 500 v one AL team a;; season, and only two total
30 SOME ODD GAMES = 51 games
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks, captain obvious.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Look i hope we get there, but c',om these pitchers need to step up
not yield 22 R v Seattle. Seattle for Chrissake
Agreed. The pitching needs help.
But they have a month to get it. And have proven that they’re better than they’re playing right now.
if you were disapointed in the Seattle games than say that
don’t blanket the whole season as a disapointment, because it hasn’t been. Yea we would all much rather be in first place or at least in the lead for the WC but that is the beast of the ALE. There are 3 really good teams and Toronto and Baltimore don’t exactly suck.
I know winning 90 games in the toughest division on baseball is awful
they should just trade the whole team for the Nationals because we clearly suck.
If they win 90 games, i leave this blog
by Raymondo on Aug 11, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Someone screenshot this.
If the Rays finish the year at 90 wins or over, Raymondo is banished from DRays Bay.
If the Rays finish the year under 90 wins, DRays Bay user “Suttree” is gone.
Much like when the Yankees and Redsox play I'm rooting for a meteor
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like a win-win
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Mysterious appearance on Nov. 1 of "Sternfan2"
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
so what makes you so convinced we will play 2 games under .500 the rest of the season
when we have a relatively easy schedule the rest of the way.
No...I know most of the quotes by heart.
Just seeing chances to use them
Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz
That's no moon. It's Dioner Navarro
Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz
by SRQman on Aug 11, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We used to bullseye womp rats in my t-16 back home, they weren't much bigger than Dustin Pedroia
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
You're on the clear kid, lets jack this bomb and go home
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I've been waiting for you, Scoscia. We meet again, at last.
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master.
NO BLASTERS (Steroids)! NO BLASTERS (Steroids)!
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
No one worries about upsetting a BJ Upton
Thats because BJ Uptons don’t pull peoples arms out of their sockets when they lose. Jonny Gomeses have been known to do that.
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
The Force is what gives a Bossman his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.
Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz
0 effort quote
1/5
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
May the baseball be with you
HURRRRRRRRRRRRRR
The girls left. According to one patron, Hamilton, piss-drunk by that point, asked the manager where he could buy blow. The manager didn't know. "Let's go to a strip club," Hamilton said. Someone drove Hamilton to Les Girls in Phoenix, Arizona.
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 11, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
There was nothing you could have done, Buc Wild, had you been there.
You’d have been killed too, and the meme would now be in the hands of the Empire.
Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz
Fenway Park: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.
Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz
If you're not the first reply to this, SRQ is banned.
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
I still like our chances
11 games against Bal
2 at home against seattle
9 against Toronto
that is 22 games we should be able to go 16-6 at worst I would hope.
Worst deal ever
the thread post counts will suffer dramatically
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
Question about UZR
I’ve looked around for some answers and haven’t seen them.
Is there any kind of connection between a high UZR third baseman and a low UZR SS?
A brief glance seems to show that teams with a highly rated third baseman generally have a shortstop that is rated very poorly.
For example:
2009 Top 5 3B and SS rating
Evan Longoria 15.5——————————-Jason Bartlett 4.0———————-Christian Guzman
Ryan Zimmerman 15.55.2————————————-Nick Punto 0.8
Joe Crede 10.9
Adrian Beltre 9.5————————————-Yuniesky Bentancourt 18.8———————————-Adam Everett 0.5
Brandon Inge 9.5
2009 Top 5 SS and 3B Rating
Jack Wilson 12.5 -—————————-Andy LaRoche 0.8
JJ Hardy 8.7 -————————————-Bill Hall 3.8
Elvis Andrus 7.8————————————Michael Young 10.8——————————-Scott Rolen 3.7
Marco Scutaro 7.6
Brendan Ryan 6.9———————————Joe Thurston -0.5
Of course, it can be a coincidence and I’m sure that people much smarter than I am have already addressed this. From a quick eye test it appears there is a relationship.
Wow... that formatted terribly
Ignore the strike-throughs if you can… They shouldn’t be there.
I could change the numbers to rankings...
And the relationship is still there. It appears that highly rated 3B are coupled with a low rated SS. I can change the run amounts to positional rankings and there relationship still exists.
It's possible.
I had a sneaking suspicion about that last year because, from an subjective standpoint, it seemed like Longoria cut off a lot of balls that could have easily gone to Bartlett.
I figured..
IMO this is something that had to have been addressed in the past. It just seems to obvious not to, yet it looks to be a problem.
Very interesting
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
The rankings would be as follows
First is 3B ranking, then SS
The top 7 (Longo, Zimmerman, Hannahan, Crede, Beltre, Inge, Figgins) are siginificantly better (based on UZR) than the rest. You can see the relationship ends after Figgins. It looks like a very strong relationship.
1 – 28
2 – 29
3 – 31
4 – 19
5 – 32
6 – 21
7 – 15
8 – 7
9 – 2
10 – 4
Hopefully this doesn’t get lost in the mass of nonsense that has seemed to erupt.
You're saying quoting A New Hope is nonsense?!
Again, it’s definitely an interesting relationship. Maybe go back a couple years and see if its not just a one year thing?
Unless someone more familiar with UZR does have an answer.
But that means a lot more research...
No one knows of a study that’s already been done? I just can’t believe this hasn’t been noticed prior.
I'd be shocked, too.
Like I said, I remember pointing it out in the off-season in one of my first comments, and nothing really came of it, and I never explored it in-depth.
RJ? Tommy?
I think we may have looked into the theory that Longoria was stealing some of Bartletts "range"
I won’t be able to dig it up until later though. RJ may have it
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 2:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You already did enough to warrant a discussion
A FanPost can be a conversation or question
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Ill get one going...
Let me get a few years figured out and I’ll post one…
We should definitely trade him
Defense is cheap. We can upgrade defense cheaply, maybe take a hit on the offenseive end, and end up with the same WAR. All for a much lower price and plus some good prospects. Barty should fetch quite a bit. He will be a two time team MVP (gag), and coming off a monster offensive year. Some idiot GM will pay quite a bit.
I wouldn’t be opposed to a package type deal. Bartlett + a pitching prospect for a very strong prospect.
Either way this is a good article.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
I'm sorry all I remember is Joyce's HR vs. Boston and Edwin getting rocked last night
Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz
and if you want to look at short term on trades
how are Delmon and BH doing in Minnesota? Just wondering because by your own admission Matt Garza is our best pitcher and you don’t want to trade Bartlett because he is one of our best players.
Same thing that made him say he didn't want Cliff Lee and then listed him in his 15 Pitchers I'd Rather Have Than James Shields laff-a-thon.
So long, Sweet Lime!
i didn't want Lee, NOT because he can't pitch
rather who we’d have to give and we’d never sign him after ’10
ok
Just throwing this out there for you statmasters
When is the last time Cliff Lee started what one would call a high leverage game?
by Raymondo on Jul 28, 2009 3:20 PM PDT on 7/28 GDT: New York Yankees @ Tampa Bay Rays on DRaysBay
—
Cliff Lee—check his record v BOS
by Raymondo on Jul 28, 2009 4:42 AM PDT on 25 Million Pieces: The Potential Cliff Lee Trade and How it Affects Playoff Probability, Payroll, Prospects, and Draft Picks on DRaysBay
—
Just throwing this out there for you statmasters
When is the last time Cliff Lee started what one would call a high leverage game?
by Raymondo on Jul 28, 2009 3:20 PM PDT on 7/28 GDT: New York Yankees @ Tampa Bay Rays on DRaysBay
So long, Sweet Lime!
Sorry for the repeated post. Thought I was pasting this
glass what is your fucking problem?
why are you an authority on anything, except being a doosh? i say buying high for Cliff Lee will not put this team over the top, you apparently do, so what?
by Raymondo on Jul 23, 2009 7:12 AM PDT on Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee? Why The Rays Should Trade For Cliff Lee on DRaysBay
—
So long, Sweet Lime!
You know it's rather hard to listen to your arguments when:
A) You don’t back them up.
B) You don’t use proper spelling and grammar.
C) You start a sub-thread and promptly leave it and start a new one.
It’s almost like you’re afraid to back up your own arguments. Either that or you just don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Aug 11, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
oh yea, well Robles and Carlos Triunfel from Seattle they can't expect Jack Wilson to be the awnser
we might have to throw in an arm or something though
I strongly disagree...
And would need quite a bit of evidence to push me to the other side.
Bartlett’s an above average glove (or has been before he met Longo) and has a good enough bat. Quality SS are few and far between and would command a much greater premium than Bartlett commands. The Rays could always trade him later on when he was closer to being out of their control.
Brignac is far from a proven commodity and I’m not sure it’d be wise to take that gamble when the position is being filled more than adequately.
Fluke or not, Bartlett’s had a tremendous offensive year, one that has greatly helped the team. It probably won’t be repeated, but plenty of GMs around baseball know that as well.
I think you might slightly be underestimating Brignac
while he is unproven as far as experience is concerned, he already has an above average glove and after struggling last season he hit fairly well while up with the team this year. He just needs to work on his patience but that is most young guys.
I suppose you think trading Bartlett for say...
Posey, Smoak or some other untouchable prospect would make the most sense.
Of course you would but, that will never enver happen.
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
I don't think we will get a untouchable prospect
if you look above I presented 2 trade options (messed up on the first forgetting Robles got traded) but neither involve a Posey or Smoak and even said in the second one (Robles and Triunfel) that we may need to throw in an arm (not a major one, maybe a Ryan Reid or similar).
Given their terrible track record of bringing on aging players...
Why would the Mariners trade arguably their top prospect (who plays 2B/SS) for an aging SS who is much more expensive?
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
I probably am...
I’ve always found him to be a bit overrated and am not sure I believe he’d be better than Bartlett defensively.
I’m not saying he isn’t good. I just don’t see the reason to risk giving him the SS job after Bartlett has played better than expected. That said, I don’t think Brignac loses value in being a utility player for a year or two either. It seems like a pretty good situation.
If you wait to trade him you'll probably end up losing
trade value. Plus he’s going to probably make nearly ~4 million next year. I’m not saying Brignac is better than Bartlett right now, but the production will be closer than the price tag
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 2:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
At a certain point your paying for an incremental difference..
Of course his value over Brignac won’t be more than $3 million. However, when you look at value Bartlett has over Brignac (accounting for risk) then it’s probably worth it. Where will that $3 million go? Where will it turn in to a greater value over keeping Bartlett over Brignac?
If you keep Bartlett you are allowing the Rays a decent amount of flexibility and safety, that itself is worth something. Bartlett will be starting at SS, Zobrist at second, Brignac can back them both up. Zobrist can get reps in the OF to give Brignac more PAs.
I just don’t like the idea of handing over a starting job to an unproven rookie when there is someone perfectly adequate available, coming off a career year, who is still a bargain.
At some point you're going to have to hand the position to Brignac
And let him prove that a) he can handle it. B) time to stop wasting time with him. Moving Bartlett at his highest value would seem to be the opening to do it.
I wouldn’t go blind into the situation. I’m sure the Rays would sign a shortstop/mid IF to back up Brignac. Defense is relatively cheap to find. Adam Everett types are usually available for ~1 million.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 3:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Why hand him the job now?
The Rays don’t need to give him the job. They have a perfectly good infield now at a pretty good price. Same goes for next year.
The problem becomes whether they believe Bartlett is the same player he was in 2005-2008 or if he’s better. He’s not a 140 OPS+ type player, but if he’s anything around 100-110 then he’s worth a lot more to the Rays next year then he gets back in trade value.
You're right...
Longoria and Brignac belong in the same sentence
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
i guess yr right
we shouldn’t graduate players unless they’re top 10 BA prospects because they may suck for a month once they hit MLB pitching
That's not a sound argument..
You’re deflecting from the main paint. Why is Brignac a better option? At least Dbullsfan is providing some type of insight…
400k
nothing to learn in Durham
better defensively
good stick against RH
Bartlett has higher trade value
should I keep going?
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 11, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Totally down with this
The spects we could get back for Barty and the saving of money makes it a win. Also I think Briggy will do fine at SS I love his D
Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz
You love his D in more than one way.
Sign lady must die.
Nobody Talk to Raymondo - Support the Site-Wide Silent Treatment.
by EminenceFront on Aug 11, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
How does it help the team next year?
I agree he shouldn’t be in Durham next year.
I’m not sure anyone really knows if he’ll be better next year with the glove.
His bat is probably a downgrade next year.
Trade value is debatable…
No one can predict the future if that is what you mean
He is in his prime as a defender while Bartlett has already left his and as the OP showed he has trended down each of the last 5 years. You don’t see what you don’t want to see on this one.
Of course his bat is a downgrade when you compare him to this year’s Bartlett who is crushing every other year’s Bartlett and will destroy next year’s Bartlett.
Without knowing the mindset of each individual GM, if I am in win-now mode I take the MLB proven player, if I want to win later I take the spect, if it is the dead of winter and I am psyched about my team I am in win-now mode.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 11, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand the defensive decline
I don’t think it is as significant as it’s being made but that’s an opinion that statistics are proving wrong.
I think Bartlett will be a better hitter in 2010 than he was in 2008, but I seem to be alone in that.
So he's somewhere between 08 & 09
So let’s say for SnG he puts up an .800 OPS in 2010 with declining defense. What is that worth to you? That’s basically Miguel Tejada. Who I don’t really consider that great of a player anymore. Add in what he will be due in Arb after this year and it’s quite possible we could end up overpaying an Arb player, something that should never, ever happen.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 11, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
i think you are very alone in that thinking.
Bartlett had a stretch of a few great months. I’m thankful for it, but let’s be honest in that his trade value will never again be close to what it is now
2010 greater than 2008?
Not talking about 2009. He’s been very good since June of 2008.
Really??
Are you really arguing that Longoria and Brignac are in the same universe as far as prospects go?
What?
First off, show me where he is a top 3 SS. Secondly, show me where anyone (scout or stat) rates him anywhere near Longoria as far as potential goes?
Please post a link
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
There are three different top prospect lists on MiLB.com right now
He’s #2 on DaveH’s list
- on RedSoxFaithful’s list (behind Beckham, Alcides Escobar, Carlos Triunfel (who will probably need to move) and Wilmer Flores)
The third list was only a top 25 list, and no shortstops were on it.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
redosxfaithful's list sucked
Triunfel probably won’t and no way in hell will Flores ever be an MLB shortstop.
Relevant to your argument
Please post a link of someone who actually knows what they are talking about
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
Loved this line
11. Desmond Jennings – OF [TB]
have to fly, have to fight, have to crow. gonna be the rufio to BOSSMAN’s pan.
So long, Sweet Lime!
I would have Escobar ahead of him
but he is right there behind Beckham I think and I would put him before Beckham because I’m more partial to ML guys than to guys in A ball.
Awesome...
Show me someone else that says he’s a top 3 SS.
Keith Law had him 9th entering the year though some guys graduated.
And didn’t we just argue that Top-10 rankings don’t mean a guy should be promoted?
Brignac has made a strong case for getting promoted.
He’s hit extremely well this year, and his defense has gotten raves for two years straight.
I get that
I really do. But why does that mean he’s better than what the Rays have.
I’m not arguing that he isn’t any good. He is. I just don’t think the Rays should make moves just to accommodate him when he isn’t an impact player (yet) and they have a pretty good option there right now who is still relatively cheap.
Again, there is value in knowing what someones production will be. I think we are a lot more certain of Bartlett than Brignac and I don’t think the Rays are in the position to take that risk with Brignac.
just don’t think the Rays should make moves just to accommodate him when he isn’t an impact player (yet)
how could he become an impact player sitting on the bench?
Longoria was an impact player
They knew they needed to keep 3B open. I’ll admit that’s a pretty weak argument on my part.
I don’t think Brignac is better than Bartlett. I don’t think he will be next year. That’s my argument. It’s hard for me to justify the Rays trading away current value when they’ll be in a playoff dogfight every year.
I don't think Briggy will be immediately better than Barty either.
The point is we, in theory, should get great value for Barty, who’s having a peak season and while Briggy may not immediately replicate Barty’s impact right away, he should be able to do what Jason did last year. With Upton hopefully rebounding and the rest of our offense cruising, we should be in good shape next year.
But do you think Bartlett will be the player he was in 2008?
I’d rather give Bartlett a chance to prove he’s better than 2008 then get rid of him thinking he’ll fall back to that level.
I don’t want this to turn into a regression article. I just think Bartlett has done a few things to prove he’s a little different hitter than he was in April and May of 2008.
I agree with you that he's shown things that could lead us to believe he's a better hitter than the 280 version.
But, I think Sandy summed it up above with his Miguel Tejada comp.
Brignac appears to have improved significantly this year
Or at least his bat has bounced back quite a bit.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Goldstein had him as the 4th or 5th going into this season.
Last year he was the second or third best.
The biggest concern with him coming into the season was his struggles offensively
and he has responded by hitting nearly .300. He struggled a couple years in a row offensively because he was focusing most of his time on his defense, which is how he wen’t from a liability with the glove to a guy who last year was said to be the best defensive infielder in the system (and that was with Longoria still considered a prospect)
a lot depends on the OF too
if we trade C.C. which a lot of people think will happen that will open up a OF spot, most likely for Joyce. AF will have a decision to make in RF and 2B. Zobrist will most likely become an everyday player at one of those positions. So the arguement could come down to trade value vs production of this combination
RF, 2B, SS- Zobrist, Brignac, Bartlett (although I’d argue Brignac at SS and Barty 2B but for this we can put it like this)
RF, 2B, SS- Gabe’s, Zo, Brignac
RF,2B, SS- Gabe’s, Zo, Bartlett and Brignac off the bench.
Why take Zobrist off of 2nd?
It doesn’t make sense unless his glove removes him. It’s much easier to improve offensively at RF than it would be at 2B.
Are the Rays a better team with Longoria/Bartlett/Zobrist/Pena or with Brignac in there? I don’t think anyone can argue the Rays are better with Brignac.
The only argument for dropping Bartlett is money. I just don’t see where the Rays better spend that money since it’s basically what Aki is making this year.
the argument for dropping Bartlett is maximizing value and making smart decisions
something that Friedman is good at. specially when we have a guy who is ready to take over.
it is the same arguement with C.C.
is Joyce going to be better than C.C. next season, most likely no, but it makes sense to trade him when his value is maximized because we won’t be able to resign him.
That's a totally different argument
CC is making a whole lot more money. The difference between Bartlett and Brignac will be about $3 million, not accounting for the cost of a backup. So we’re looking at ~$2 million in savings, if that. I don’t think $2 million is worth the risk and/or flexibility that keeping Bartlett at SS and Briggy at utility provides.
We also don’t know what Bartlett’s value is which makes this exercise a little pointless.
your right we don't know Bartlett's market value
But we be saving 2 million + getting back prospects(assuming thats what we get). $2 million in spending money, brignac + defensive backup, + prospects is worth the risk to me.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 3:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
More Prospects Please
I’m getting really tired of finishing 2nd to Texas is the race to have the best farm system
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
so we should keep all of our players and than let them walk
and get draft picks and while the draft picks are in A ball we will be a 65 win team,
Yea lets just wait until all our players get old and then replenish
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 3:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I understand there has to be a balance...
..but why trade someone who is productive for cheap when there are other positions that this can be addressed with
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
What do you not understand?
This is about as good as Bartlett is going to get. Sell high, buy low.
So long, Sweet Lime!
Yes
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 11, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You would thing with the information
And staff available to them this would be the case. Yet we see dumb trades and signings all the time
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 3:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That's where we disagree
Which there is nothing wrong with.
I don’t think Bartlett will command the bounty that others do. Two years ago he was basically a throw-in on the Garza deal and I’m not sure he has worked his way into a named player yet (ALLSTAR!). I’d rather the Rays not take the risk of hurting on-field performance next year, especially for so little money. Bartlett + Brignac as his backup is much better than Brignac + Backup. The front office has done a great job in insuring against injury and I don’t see that stopping.
As you said earlier
It really depends on his trade value and we just don’t know what that is. I’m not infavor of moving him just to shed the salary. But if there is value he should be moved.
Mark your calendars, we just had a pretty nice reasoned argument on DRB.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 3:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
the fact that Bartlett is cheap also increases his trade value
and brings new teams to the table. The Pirates, Marlins, and even say the Padres could all get into discussions that wouldn’t be able to if he were more expensive. Like Tommy said this isn’t a we must trade Bartlett thing but if we get a decent offer we shouldn’t be afraid to take it.
I hand him the job now (2010) because
Bartlett’s defense is decling. He is not likely to repeat this offensive season. And even though he’s price tag will be relatively cheap, I rather allocate those funds elsewhere. If you keep Bartlett and he hits like he did in 2008 and his defense continues to erode then you have a pretty useless trade chip. Even if he hits well again next year, the trend suggests his defense will regress even more next season.
I’d not a we must trade him thing, but if a team comes along with a good offer I don’t hesitate.
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 11, 2009 3:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
FUCK 'EM ALL
Dismantle a 90 win team…
Trade Pena, CC, BJ, Bartlett, Kaz, Neimann and Sonny.
Let’s start fresh with prospects, prospects, prospects.
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
ALmost right
We trade everyone but Niemann….he is The Future
Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz
I don't think we should trade everyone you listed in one off-season and I don't think Niemann or BJ goes anywhere
not counting the 2 I mentioned
next years line-up
CF-Upton
2B- Zobrist
3B- Longoria
1B- acquired through trade or FA
LF- Joyce
DH- PTB or Trade or FA
C- trade (say Teagarden)
SS- Brignac
RF- Gabes
Rotation
Garza
Shields
Price
Niemann
Davis
I trust that the FO would be able to fill in for 1B with someone productive and pick up a solid catcher (most likely Kaz to Texas) That team should still be able to win 85 games and if BJ can get going and Longoria has the MVP type year he is capable of maybe more. Plus we would dump salary that we could use on someone say using some of the prospects we get to trade for Adrian Gonzalez.
that is why I don't think we should trade all of them at once
but we can’t keep everyone either, it isn’t like we are running away with the division this year and we have to make sure we can be in contention for more than just 2010-2011, we need to make moves that will help 2012-and on.
"we need to make moves that will help 2012-and on."
I disagree.
The Rays have no idea what happens between 2010 and 2012. They can control the short term and hope things fall in place in the long term. Im strongly against any type of move that takes them out of contention in 2010. This team is very good. They’ve been a bit unlucky this year, but they are still very good.
There is nothing wrong with trading players from a contending team. It is a whole different thing to trade away a lot of key components and fill them in with potential that they hope comes near that prior level.
the moves I see being made/want to see made of impact players
Kazmir, Bartlett, and Crawford
Crawford should get back similar to what Miguel Cabrera brought Florida and both Bartlett and Kazmir will bring back decent prospects as well.
I think we will be replacing all 3 guys in house with Brignac, Joyce, and Davis. Will those 3 be as good as the 3 they are replacing, no (although you could make a case that Davis>Kaz in 09)
I’m not sure how many games through WAR will be lost in this exchange of players but like you said there has been some unluckiness with the team this year (or w/e you want to call it) Upton should be better next year, whoever is catcher will almost certainly be an upgrade over Navarro, Pena should hit above .220 and the same can be said for PTB. Price will be a year older and should improve and the same could be said for Garza and Niemann. So while there is a chance we won’t be as good there is also a chance we will be just as good as we were this year and will have the extra prospects and extra cash heading into the deadline in case we want to make a trade for a major player like a Halladay or someone.
I still don't think Crawford pulls in a haul like Cabrera
Most GMs don’t value defensive contribution well when they make trades.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Trading Bartlett does not take us out of contention
Paying him 5M in Arb and consequently having to trade Craw is a much bigger blow.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 11, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't talking about Bartlett
That was a response to his “next years lineup” post.
Do you think keeping Bartlett = trading crawford?
Trading Barty and Kazmir might be = keeping Crawford.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Trading Kazmir = keeping Crawford
Lets be honest, Bartlett has little to do with that.
Kazmir is due like 8 mil next year, right?
Crawford is due like 12 mil?
Barty probably makes 4 mil through arb thanks to this year.
12 = 12
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think Bartlett matters
Trading Kazmir adds enough flexibility to keep crawford..
RJ, do you have any information, links, etc to 3B/SS UZR stuff talked about above?
Let me look in the archives.
I do know that last year Bartlett’s troubles were to his left, not his right, so I don’t think Longoria played into it.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I saw that..
Just a coincidence with the top 7 then?
I'm guessing so.
If nothing else, I’ll ask MGL if he thinks a good 3B could interfere with a SS’ UZR.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
BONER CITY
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
we can trade bartlett and just have Nando/BOSS play shallow
Nando plays shallow left-center, BOSS plays his usual.
black stallion speed will get us the out except on slow rollers, where Longo will need to help. but if we cover all the baseballs in the scent of Erin Andrews’ panties, he’ll have no problem barehanding those slow rollers
wouldn't this winter be the best time to trade him though
Joyce/Upton/Gabe’s isn’t that bad of an option and Jennings could be ready by ASB of 2010 and at worst 2011. For someone as high on Joyce as you RJ I would think you would be one of the first in line for trading Crawford (I know it sounds wierd given how good he is and what he has meant to this team) but buisness is buisness and we could get one hell of a return for him.
55% turn over in a starting lineup
I can’t imagine that many teams who do that are very successful
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
Well, the 2008 Rays.
New RF, 2B, 3B, SS, DH, rotation and bullpen…
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Good Point...
…but it would have been really hard for them to regress from 2007
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
...but
we were replacing DY, Wiggy, Aki, BHarris and Greg Norton
it might be a bit tougher to replace Pena, CC, PTB? and Bartlett
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
The chances of Barty, Crawford, and Pena all being traded are probably .005%
I was just showing that just because we trade these guys it isn’t like we are going to turn into the Nationals.
Coghlan isn't a defensive gem IMO.
Sign lady must die.
by EminenceFront on Aug 11, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
he isn't a gold glove winner but he is flexable defensively like Zobrist
and he is better offensively than Hermida.
He's only really flixible to 2B and the OF.
Sign lady must die.
Nobody Talk to Raymondo - Support the Site-Wide Silent Treatment.
by EminenceFront on Aug 11, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm sure he could play 1B if needed
and with Brignac/Longoria and Zobrist in case of an injury would we need someone who played SS or 3B? Hermida only plays OF
True.
I’m just speaking from experience he’s not the greatest outfielder. He’s fine at 2B and I’m sure he could play 1B.
Sign lady must die.
Nobody Talk to Raymondo - Support the Site-Wide Silent Treatment.
by EminenceFront on Aug 11, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure if you've seen this or not, R.J. et. al., but Jason Churchill wrote two pieces on Brignac where he just raves about him.
One from June you can read here, and one from late July here.
After talking with alot of scouts, Churchill even said in the comments section:
I think Brignac has a much better chance to be something on both sides of the game [than Alcides Escobar], and it will happen for him sooner than Escobar.
That’s awfully high praise.
As much as I, as an M’s fan, want Brignac, I think you guys would be foolish to trade him. I agree with the trade Bartlett crowd – he’ll hit his peak value this offseason, and if you can package him with Kazmir (I have no idea how feasible this is), all the better.
I'd rather not trade Brignac over Bartlett either.
Good stuff on the links. Thanks.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
That's funny...
…right before the trade deadline everyone was all about trading Brignac and now it seems that he is irreplaceable
"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."
a lot of people had Cliff Lee dreams in their head.
I for one didn’t want to trade Brignac unless we got both V-Mart and Lee and as much as I like Brignac I still would do it for both guys.
Don't confuse me for one of those people.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 11, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
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