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A Quick Look at the Rotation

I am going to shamelessly stealing this idea from Jeff over at LL but put a twist on it.

People worry a ton about where all these starting pitcher prospects will fit in. Some used it as reasoning to trade someone like Wade Davis or Jeremy Hellickson. So to see how quickly rotations can fall apart, I took each team's top six starters in 2007 and compared it to their 2009 top six to see how many of those '07 starters remained. Here are the results:


Rotation_medium

69/180 or 38%. Jeff found that 37% of top four outfielders were still on their current teams, so pitchers and outfielders basically have the same retention rate. Obviously I could go through and separate the ineffective pitchers from the injured, or the free agents from the traded, but that doesn't tell us anything additional.

What we do know is that four teams retained 4 of their top 6 starters two years later, two retained zero, a bunch have half of the arms, and the rest have two or one arm left. This is part injury prevention, part talent evaluation, and part plain luck. If this percentage holds true - and frankly I have zero idea if this is a high, low, or right on tap with the other years, but I doubt these things fluctuate too much - the Rays will likely have at least two new starters in 2011.

It's nice to talk about peak value with the arms in the system, but sometimes you have to keep a few in the cabinets even if it means diminishing any potential returns.

(I'll probably come back to this during the off-season, but if some other intrepid soul wants to compare 2004 to 2006 or 2005 to 2007, be my guest. I used B-Ref's team logs and sorted by games started to sort out the starter ranks.)

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Thank you for this R.J.

It is related to an issue that has been discussed on this site in a few different threads and, in my view, belies the notion that a team has a surplus of pitching and so should actively seek to maximize value by trading some. Actually, as you noted about outfielders, my guess is the same situation applies to any position. (Consider the catchers in Texas.)

That is not the same as saying that a team ought not trade from perceived strength. Certainly if a talent is blocked already it makes sense to deal away someone to clear space. (cf: the Edwin Jackson deal.) But it should not anticipate a glut in advance and assume it has to clear away some room sooner rather than later.

by bobr on Aug 19, 2009 7:19 AM EDT reply actions  

But how much of it is because of free agency?

Which isn’t really applicable to our current situation. Probably 1/3 – 1/2 of the guys who moved did so because they were traded or they were free agents. The only portion that’s relevant to whether we have a surplus, IMO, is the amount that it turns over due to ineffectiveness or injury.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Should Cliff Lee be included as one of CLE's 2009 starters?

Doesn’t his trade further illustrate your point?

So long, Sweet Lime!

by PlayOnWords on Aug 19, 2009 8:58 AM EDT reply actions  

Very nice work

Although I don’t think we could really use this as evidence that we have to get as much ML ready starting pitching as possible. I don’t think that was your intention though.

I do think we need to trim the numbers. Who and what for? That is for AF to decide.

I just think it is dumb to essentially go into a season with over 7 strong ML ready starters. I also think it is dumb to hold onto a valuable piece essentially waiting for an injury. I understand injuries happen, but having an elite guy waiting in the wings (past when he is ready) doesn’t make sense. It is a value loss all the way around. If the guy doesn’t get hurt, your top prospects value diminishes. If he does get hurt then that guy has lost major value as well as the lost time in the majors for the prospect. I’d imagine you’d be better off dealing one of them to get max value and then if an injury does occur plug in a major league ready starting pitcher. Guys like Talbot, Hernandez, Cormier, etc should be your injury replacements. Once elite guys like Hellickson or Davis are ready you need to either trade them or make room for them in a reasonable time frame. Not doing so diminishes their value.

I’m not saying something has to happen right this moment. I think 1 guy out of our top 7 (the ML 5 plus D and H) needs to be traded by the next deadline and 2 guys need to be moved by around next offseason. Of course the timing depends largely on who we want to deal.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 9:02 AM EDT reply actions  

I love the fact you assume we have 7 strong ML ready starters

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Next year we will have 8 guys that could/should start in the majors

Okay Hellickson perhaps maybe more midseason.

Price, Kaz, Shields, Garza, Niemann, Davis, Sonnanstine, Hellickson

That is 8

IMHO those are not guys you simply stash away. They are too good and too valuable. If we aren’t going to get max value from them on the field, then we should trade them and get max value that way

For injuries I’d rather rely on guys like Talbot, Hernandez, Cormier, etc. Although I wouldn’t be opposed to keeping 6 of those 8 (with one as a backup). But anything more than that is just excessive.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Starting and starting effectivley are 2 vastly different things

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Who isn't going to be effective?

The only ones with somewhat of a question mark are Kaz, Davis, and Hellboy. And really there aren’t that many questions with them. The question is how good they are going to be, and not whether they are going to be a solid pitcher in the league.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

How are you already putting guys with zero MLB experience into the class of being an above average pitcher.

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you aren't confident in them being a solid ML starter then shouldn't you trade them to a team that does?

That way we’d be extracting as much value as we can given our expectations of their performance.

I said solid, not above average. Average would be awesome for the back end of the rotation. Although they all have the potential to be very good.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why trade away depth...does the above post not compute for you?

I translate…

The question is how good they are going to be, and not whether they are going to be a solid pitcher in the league.

…to there is no question whether they are going to be solid just how much better than solid they are going to be, which is probably above average.

No?

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

And why does an organization need 8 or 9 guys that could be average ML starters?

That makes no sense. Of course the Rays should start the best ones. Or at least run some models to determine which are best to trade based upon performance, cost, control, etc.

Like I said I’m not opposed to trading the guys in the majors right now and going with the younger guys. I’m okay with that. Whatever maximizes value.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now it is up to 9 ML starters

Just make it an even 10 and I might start agreeing with you.

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

He is a average ML starter. We know what we are getting out of him. Low to mid 4 FIP. He should be starting in the majors.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Over 5 FIP in 2009

under 4 FIP in 2008.

I think that is the definition of a question mark.

Bring Your Z-Game!

by Sveet on Aug 19, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have no problem with the young guns staying in AAA for the forseeable future. Build up their innings

but also build up their smarts. I want to see these guys toy with batters. I want to see them learn when they can coast and when they need to pump it up. They are still young men that six years from their first start will still be relatively young. I’m not sure why we want to rush guys just because they “have figured out AAA.” In fact if we learned anything from the Price for E-Jax swap it is that replacing a ML starter with an on-the-cusp minor leaguer takes an adjustment period. Price has looked better of late, pitching at home, but if he had been able to do this all season we would surely have 2-3 more wins.

The problem is what to do with guys that are out of options. I don’t think Davis falls into that category yet, but I’m sure Talbot does.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree...

…there is no question that Price would have benefited from more time in the minors.

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Then again Davis has been in AAA for awhile now

I’m not saying he needs to be in the ML rotation at the start of the year. However something needs to be done next year. You simply lose value by keeping a guy like that in the minors too long.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

You only lose value if you trade him

not if you keep him. and even the that is debatable

Bring Your Z-Game!

by Sveet on Aug 19, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

We have different definitions of value

I’m talking about something WAR based taking into account opportunity costs as well as time. By opportunity costs I mean what we could have had via a trade as well as what other in house options can give us.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

What happens when that pitcher pulls an EdJack

…then everyone bitches and complains that we should have kept him.

I am just using this as an example, I thought the trade was necessary.

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you keep everyone then you would never find out

Honestly you just have to make the best scouting decisions as well as getting your guys to reach their potential. And then the FO can take advantage of inefficiencies.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

How does he lose value?

I don’t mind my pitchers learning the intricacies of the game when they have a net under them. Fully develop all of your pitches, learn your own personal boundaries and then see how you can push them outward.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well each pitcher is different on their time frame

But generally if you hold them in the minors too long their value drops for a couple strong reasons. One would be their market value via trade, and two their time value is being wasted.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

How is their time value being wasted?

I guess I can agree on declining market value, though I’m hesitant to put much faith in that. Maybe perceived market value takes more of a hit since a rival GM might be apt to think that if a guy has been down this long he must not be very good.

As for time value, we still get 6 seasons. Without any proof whatsoever, I feel that pitchers arms are still growing in their early 20’s. I wouldn’t let a guy come up to the Show until they were 25-26 and had already thrown 800 innings across all levels of the minors. I like the idea that if they feel a twinge or a little sore they can be skipped more easily in the minors and not forced to fight through an injury exasperating it in the process. Just my thoughts, perhaps I’m a minority here, but I want guys coming up to the Majors with the total package and ready to go 200+ for the next 6 years. Then hopefully they are so good we can’t afford them and get 2 picks back to do it again.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

It would be baller if MLB and NPB had some sort of loan policy, like in soccer (/deflects garbage thrown)

Where a guy like Wade Davis could go to Chiba Lotte or wherever for a half or full season, to get even more polish at a difficulty level between AAA and MLB.

So long, Sweet Lime!

by PlayOnWords on Aug 19, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Meh

I’d be hesitant because the style of play and game in general is pretty different there.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mr. Baseball is one example

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Comic relief

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

You do?

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good point

I’ve never been caught urinating in public.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Me too after 12 beers

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

More like 12 Beards

We know you’re addicted to Bartles and Jaymes.

So long, Sweet Lime!

by PlayOnWords on Aug 19, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

If it don't say kiwiberry then it isn't for me

Pass me a Zima and lets get this party started.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

p-values are supposed to low, not high

to indicate significance. the p value is the chance t of a correlation being due strictly to chance or stochastic effects.

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you can do this, then I'm all for it.

Other than positional prospects, what is this team lacking? Not a whole lot. No need to trade depth for the sake of trading it. Let them come up ready to dominate. Let them work the kinks out on the cheap in the minors.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right

I’m in favor of swapping excess pitching for positional prospects

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

"What's this team lacking"

A long-term 1B
A long-term DH
A long-term C
A long-term COF

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would you want a LT DH?

Good luck finding a LT catcher. 1B/COF depend on what we do, and I said I’d allow for the need of positional prospects. It’s easier to find an average 1B/COF than average arms for cheap.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wouldn't necessarily want one

But it’s a hole nonetheless. If you can get an impact bat and he happens to play the same position as someone else you already have, then it’s still a good move to get him if the DH spot is open, that’s all.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can trade ML ready pitching for early level high ceiling pitchers

Tons of things you can do.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Frankly teams should do more of this

Trade surplus of a position that is in the majors or close to the majors for a bulk of early minor league talent.

Having logjams in the early levels are MUCH MUCH MUCH preferable than logjams at the late levels. Value is lost when someone is blocked near the top. At the early levels guys have more time to differentiate from each other and allow for the cream to rise to the top. And of course you have more time to deal those prospects if need be.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

You keep saying this, but where's the support?

“Value is lost when someone is blocked near the top”

How can you state with certainty that the value realized by holding is LESS than the value that would be realized by trading surplus? Isn’t that nearly by defintion something that can only be evaluated on a case-by-case basis because it is so context-dependent?

by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Aug 19, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Simple economics

If teams know that something needs to give because of a roster crunch, they’re not going to pay as much to get something they want. You see it happen over and over again.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

we have the luxury to not rush our prospects, a lot of teams don’t.

and as rglass says above. What would you want in return? I don’t see a reason to trade SP depth for depth somewhere else.

Bring Your Z-Game!

by Sveet on Aug 19, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

good point

…and I don’t want to hear anyone say we need a catcher, of course we do, 80% of the teams out there need a fucking catcher.

And 1B are a dime a dozen.

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think my 800 innings

is clearly an exaggeration, but I did want to clarify that. Counting all innings after HS I want them to throw upwards of 600. 600 well controlled innings. I’m not talking about babying guys, but they need to be honest and the coaching needs to give them the buffer zone to be honest. Too many guys feel like they have to fight through something to prove they are a man and good enough to stick on the team. This might work at A+ and down to weed out the truly infirm, but once they pass that test there is no reason a guy should be pitching hurt.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think 800 is an exaggeration.

I know some player dev people in the Yankees system (take that for what its worth) think that 900 innings and 1600 ABs are the general benchmark for major league preparedness.

So long, Sweet Lime!

by PlayOnWords on Aug 19, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think there is a good hard number

Here are some minor league innings pitched for current studs
Grienke – 285
Johan – 48
Beckett – 216
Lincy – 62
Verlander -118
Felix – 305
Haren – 475

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good Point

I think Lincecum, Verlander and Haren are only ones who attended college so that still has them all scattered across the board.

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Grienke was promoted fast.

Santana was a rule V guy. Felix was a phenom. As was Beckett.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

The point of my above post.

The guys you are looking at are studs. I’m more concerned with the guys not on the tails of the spectrum.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I understand...

…that the majoirty of those guys are studs and have far more talent and hype than we have.

The point was to show that there is no “hard” rule or “science” behind the apprptiate amount of innings to be pitcher before heading to the majors.

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right, each situation dictates a different SOP, but

in general I want a ton of innings in the Minors so that arms and brains are fully developed before promotion. Of course if we have Greinke, Beckett, Lince coming through the system I’m still pretty psyched.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry Sandy

I don’t think this is an issue that can be resolved through “progressive statistical analysis and reasoned argument.”

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm only a 3 tool player

I don’t use those. That’s what separates me from the 5 tool players like RJ.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't discount yourself

I defintely think you are a tool

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

That suit must have cost you tens.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because given equal performances the season that occurs earlier is more valuable

Same reason why a comp draft pick is nowhere near as valuable as the original.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why?

That is how you lose value. We have a major surplus in one spot and a major deficiency in another. Why would it make sense to keep the status quo when we could fix it and be at optimal levels?

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

How does Hellickson in AAA for another year make him lose value?

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Davis/Sonny?

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I want Wade down there

He needs to keep his walks down. He is not ready for prime-time quite yet. Sonny can go to the pen as a swingman or stay in AAA, it doesn’t really matter to me. I’ve seen enough of him as a FT starter.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hellickson doesn't

But the others do.

I’m with Matthan here. The point is to try to get optimal value while keeping a winning team on the field.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

By others I'm guessing you mean Davis/Sonny?

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

See above for my feelings on those 2

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think we're saying not to trade from depth (I'm not at least).

I’m saying not to trade for the sake of getting rid of the depth. Unexpected things happen to pitchers, and it’s easier to find an average bat than average arm on the scrap-heap..

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Correct

Nobody is saying trade absolutely everything for the sake of trading. The goal is simply to maximize the value of the organization and part of that is having the optimal roster construction.

Having 8 or 9 guys that could start in the majors by late 2010 is not smart. Especially when 6 or 7 of those guys will have tremendous market values and even the guy that don’t will end up performing well.

I’m not saying trade Hellickson or Davis. It could be Garza or Kazmir for all I care.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm all for GROG for a serious package.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also we are blessed with good, young, healthy pitchers that are under contract

The TO for our team should naturally be less than most. We shouldn’t be facing performance based issues.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 9:03 AM EDT reply actions  

What i found interesting is WAS and FLA

the only two teams who have turned over all six, yet today the Marlins are contending and Nats, well

by sternfan1 on Aug 19, 2009 9:06 AM EDT reply actions  

Didn't JJ pitch in 2007?

Wasn’t 2008 his injured year?

Actually it was more like half and half?

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, VandenHurk is pitching for the Marlins

So really only only the Nats have completely turned over their rotation.

Your source for replacement level commentary

by RATW on Aug 19, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't call what VH does, "pitching."

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

He's following the Grant Balfour career path

An international signing with over strikeout per 9 and injury concerns, he’ll make a swell bullpen arm once the Marlins give up on him as a starter.

Your source for replacement level commentary

by RATW on Aug 19, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I envision a roto of

Price, Moore, Davis, Hellickson

by sternfan1 on Aug 19, 2009 9:59 AM EDT reply actions  

On several levels i question that as valid as his avg FB velo

was the gyn valid?

was this just this start?

Trying to bust my balls about him not being a power pitcher just blew up on you

by sternfan1 on Aug 19, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was SSS trolling you.

But now that you’ve clearly demonstrated a grasp of the concept, I expect you to never make a similar post again.

Though its a dim hope.

So long, Sweet Lime!

by PlayOnWords on Aug 19, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Was the gyn valid?

It’s a great question and why I always take my questions to Maury.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Moore throws a lot harder than scraping low 90s

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

The reports I've seen this year have him sitting 91-93

Still good obviously, just not as glowing as BA made it sound last off-season.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 19, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is more than "scraping low 90's"

BA reported him sitting around 91-93 last year and touching 95 last year. In my mind, “scraping low 90’s” means they sit around 87-89 and touch 91 when they overthrow.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I was agreeing with you

Scraping low 90s definitely isn’t accurate

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 19, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

My only hope is we don't start dealing SP

because we “think” one of these AAA SP is ready—Price

Remember whatever issue they have in AAA will be magbified at the MLB level, especially control—Wade

by sternfan1 on Aug 19, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions  

That is true, and i guess uncharacteristic

of the Rays philosophy, i doubt if anyone else would have made the jump with what he’s done there

by sternfan1 on Aug 19, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

He didn't dominate in AAA because he was doing a lot of experimentation with a 3rd pitch

"I want to live in a world where a solo homerun in the 2nd inning counts as much as a solo homerun in the 8th."

by RaysnNoles on Aug 19, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Meh.

He needed to be challenged. Guys like him, I think, need that challenge. He is far more talented than Davis. It’s liek Kershaw. They have to take their licks before they can dominate in the bigs.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I hope this is sarcasm

but in case it isn’t Price’s problem in the minors and so far in the majors is that pro players don’t chase his pitches outside the zone. College players couldn’t lay off the 95 mph fastball off the plate and the slider down and away. A lot of pro players can and this has lead to high pitch counts and more walks. He never had to worry about pitching inside the zone because his stuff was so good people would swing at anything in college.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's exactlt my point.

He stood to learn a lot more a lot quicker in the bigs.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

at the expense of Sonnanstine

who would have helped us more this year. I don’t think it was the worst decision ever made but I would have let him try to learn how to pitch deeper into games before calling him up and raping our bullpen.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't think Price was ready this year when he got called up to be a starter

that being said just because they may have jumped the gun on him doesn’t mean they should hesitate with Davis and especially Hellickson (who I think is more ML ready than Davis and Price when he came up). I’m sure Atlanta is really kicking themselves for calling Tommy Hanson up too early.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hanson was absolutely cruising.

Hellboy is NOT a major league ready pitcher right now. His HR/9 is already high in the minors. He won’t be a top-end arm. Let him dominate in AAA first.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

BAA is a crap stat.

Dominating is not the same as doing well. Hanson had a FIP sun-2.5. Hellickson’s is 3.86. His HR rate is not very good. That number is too high.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hellboy's has gone up at almost every level, too.

In 2008 and 2009, both players pitched in A+, AA, AAA. Hellickson’s HR/9 is 1.22. Hanson’s was .62. Hanson is only 6 months older, and he had more IP at the higher levels. He was a much betetr prospect and will be a much better pitcher. There is no comparison.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

so you cut his entire 5 years in the minors down to two

which happen to include his 13 games in Montgomery in 08 that is about the only time he has shown any sign of struggle to make the two look completely different.

If anything you showing the difference in HR/9 in that short of time period, yet the difference is only .1 over their wntire minor league career makes Hellickson look better to me.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm erring toward the tougher league that is more recent.

Whatever. You obviously value Hellickson different than I do. I’ll take Hanson, Price, Kershaw, etc. over him anyday of the week.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sample size is too low in my opinion to say he is or isn't dominating.

HR rate is low and K/BB ratio is still fantastic. Another 100 innings and i think his FIP will be sub 3

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I just don't understand why a guy like Price can get rushed through the minors

and someone like Hellickson has to be babied just to make sure he truly is this good. I know he has had some injury problems in the past but if he had the hype around him Price did I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t already be in the big leagues. He is in his 5th minor league season and has dominated every level. His only real hiccup came late 08 in Montgomery but than he started there this year and was lights out.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Price also dominated in college.

Price’s stuff is WAY better than Hellickson’s. He is also much older. Hellickson needs time at each level because he can’t get by on stuff alone, so he truly has to pitch. Hellickson has not dominated AAA yet at all. What don’t you understand about that?

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

What is college equivalent too?

A, AA?

I don’t really see dominating college as terribly impressive. You’ve got to believe Hellickson would have done the same. I think the stuff between the two is comparable. FB velocity is maybe 3mph lower for on avg for Hell, but in offspeed stuff you’d have to give the Hell the advantage because he has more than one pitch.

Pr

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I get that in his last start he had over 20 Swinging Strikes

and has been getting pretty good SS% since being called up. I don’t get where you don’t think he has really good ss%. Should he avg 15 K/9 to prove he has good stuff?

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's 2 years...

That is a pretty big difference.

Are you seriously trying to make the case for Hellickson being more deserving of a rotation spot than Price? Are you saying he’s a betetr prospect than Hanson or Price were? Those are both pretty dumb sentiments.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, but I would not be surprised

if he has a better first few years than price

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why?

Hi FB velo sits 91-92. His offspeed stuff is fantastic and he has good control and command?

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

fair enough.

but thats what they thought about beuhrle(sp?) too.

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

so when BA and everyone else comes out with their 2010 prospect list

and he is our #2 prospect and a top 20 guy overall is all of a sudden going to become a better pitcher?

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

There is little chance he isn't our #2 ptiching prospect

and #3 overall prospect if Brigs isn’t counted. Top 20 overall is unlikely, i think. Not that it matters at all.

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

BA's midseason top 25:

1. Jason Heyward
2. Mike Stanton
3. Jesus Montero
4. Justin Smoak
5. Madison Bumgarner
6. Buster Posey
7. Carlos Santana
8. Chris Tillman
9. Brian Matusz
10. Logan Morrison
11. Freddie Freeman
12. Jarrod Parker
13. Neftali Feliz
14. Alcides Escobar
15. Yonder Alonso
16. Wade Davis
17. Dominic Brown
18. Desmond Jennings
19. Jason Castro
20. Tim Beckham
21. Brett Wallace
22. Matt LaPorta
23. Michael Taylor
24. Kyle Drabek
25. Michael Saunders

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I said top 20 is unlikely.

He will be above Becks though. So I’m think 3/4 overall depending on Brigs.

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can do that too here is Mayo's mid-season list

1 Jason Heyward ATL OF
2 Madison Bumgarner SF LHP
3 Mike Stanton FLA OF
4 Justin Smoak TEX 1B
5 Buster Posey SF C
6 Neftali Feliz TEX RHP
7 Chris Tillman BAL RHP
8 Brian Matusz BAL LHP
9 Jarrod Parker ARI RHP
10 Tim Beckham TB SS
11 Alcides Escobar MIL SS
12 Jesus Montero NYY C
13 Matt LaPorta CLE 1B
14 Wade Davis TB RHP
15 Freddie Freeman ATL 1B
16 Jake Arrieta BAL RHP
17 Jeremy Hellickson TB RHP
18 Yonder Alonso CIN 1B
19 Brett Wallace OAK 3B
20 Michael Taylor PHI OF
21 Carlos Santana CLE C
22 Desmond Jennings TB OF
23 Austin Jackson NYY OF
24 Dominic Brown PHI OF
25 Logan Morrison FLA 1B

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

You said BA.

I don’t really care what Mayo has to say.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

“so when BA and everyone else comes out with their 2010 prospect list”

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh.

Well i don’t consider Msayo everyone else. KLaw, BA, Sickles, and BP to a lesser extent.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

just like when you only took 2 out of 5 years of HR/9

to try to prove your point, you can’t single out stats/view points just to make yours look good. You have to take everything into account.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

No

Using the most recent statistics is not cherry-picking. It’s what you do to get a betetr look. Trends in minor leaguers are the most important.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

No

It does mean something. It just doesn’t mean he is a top 5 pitching prospect in baseball. Hanson and Price were 1 and 2 this year. Hellickson does not have their pedigree.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

his AAA stats are also skewed by 1 bad start

in 4 of his 5 starts he has gone at least 6 innings with 2 or less ER

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

no

I am saying I think he is a better candidate for a rotation spot now than Price was when he got called up. That would most likely be different had Price spent more time in the minors. And no I don’t think he is as good of a prospect as Hanson was, but I don’t think there is much of a difference between the two like you do.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

Hellickson would not have been better than Price to start the year. No way. No how.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's not what he's saying

Hellickson through August is a better pitcher than Price through May. That’s debatable. I’ve never seen Hellboy pitch, but his periphs are incredible.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

no thats not what I'm saying

I’m saying Hellickson in September is more ready than Price was in May or w/e he came up.

you were using FIP earlier Price’s was 4.71 this year in Durham and could barely reach the 5th inning because he couldn’t throw strikes.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

It wouldn't be that hard to be better than Price.

You are really exaggerating the difference between the two. He probably wouldn’t have been, but no way, now how is ridiculous.

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

whatever

That goes to all 3 posts above.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Piss on you then

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you had to choose Randy Johnson or Greg Maddux who would you take?

Not saying either of our guys compare to those HOF’s, but I’m curious who you would rather have.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Me too, but what about Ryan?

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd take Maddux over Ryan too.

This is of course, all in retrospect. It’s easy to say that now. If they were both rookies at the same time (not knowing how their careers turned out), I’d probably take Ryan.

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was talking about Ryan as in rglass

His name is ryan.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Though it is an interesting question

I’m going to put some thought into these 3 after work.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

The former

Only because they have entire careers worth of data. More thinking out loud than anything, feel free to disregard.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maddux

He was great from the beginning. He’s also arguably had a betetr career.

Although, power pitching does better in the playoffs. So…

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree and mostly because RJ wasn't good until he was 30

If Price is a less effective RJ, but starts clicking at 26 I really like him.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

since the 3 guys we are mentioning are Hanson, Hellickson, and Price

and you are using FIP lets look at them

Hanson
06® 2.12
07 (A) 3.12
07 (A+)5.03
08 (A+)1.95
08(AA)3.60
09(AAA)2.42

Hellickson
06 (A-)2.08
07 (A)3.11
08(A+)2.57
08(AA)4.57
09(AA)2.88
09(AAA)3.86

Price
08(A+)1.67
08(AA)3.92
08(AAA)2.81
09(AAA)4.71

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes Hanson is slightly a better prospect than Hellickson

but not by very much at all. Maybe it is because is small 5’11/165 but he doesn’t get the recognition as guys like Hanson 6’6/210 or Price 6’6/225 and last I checked size isn’t the end all when it comes to pitching.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Its true.

But eventually you have to start focusing more on results then on scouting. Isn’t this the whole argument you guys told me all last year about why Sonny was better than Ejax?

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

That was ML performance.

Price’s MILB performance is SSS, and they are supposedley working on things more in the minors. Hanson’s track record was good or better than Hellickson’s.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think hanson is better than Hellickson.

No argument there. AAA results have to start meaning something though. Hellickson is better than Price at AAA

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

So?

That’s SSS. Price was also supposedly working on things.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

He didn't work on anything, let's be honest

He pouted about being in AAA. If he was actually working on something he might have a 3rd pitch to show for it.

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not a big Price fan.

I’ve heard a lot of stories about him refusing to work on things in AAA. They may not be true. Who knows.

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

You think?

I actually believe it. I mean he didn’t improve at all over the first half of the season he spent in AAA and he didn’t develop anything near a ML quality third pitch. So what the hell was going on in AAA?

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 19, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who knows?

I tend to think disparraging remarks toward players not willing to work on things are total bunk. Especially when they’re about a guy who’s never been cast as a malcontent.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not even saying Hellickson is better than Hanson

Hanson has been one of the best pitchers in the NL since his call up and he is truly a potential ace. I’m saying Hellickson isn’t far behind. And I for one would be happy as hell to have a little worse than Hanson.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hanson is a much better prospect than Hellickson

Not slightly

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Other than because Baseball America says so

what on field performance says Hanson is significantly better.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

how much of a difference does 10.7 compared to 9.7 make

and than factor in K/BB
Hanson 10.7/3.1
Hellickson 9.7/2.0

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

BB/9 concerns me less.

HR/9 and K/9 are the biggest things to me.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

so HR/9 is a .1 difference and K/9 is a 1 difference

maybe I’m crazy but that seems closer to slight difference than huge difference.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

But in the higher levels it is much greater.

How they progress through the system is very, very important.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aside from the huge jump at MON last year

Hellickson’s HR/9 really hasn’t been bad

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by Imperialism32 on Aug 19, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again, aside from his first run through Montgomery

It’s been under 1. And in Montgomery this year it was 0.6 after it was a ridiculous 1.8 last year.

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by Imperialism32 on Aug 19, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

better than Hanson

those 13 starts really stick out compared to everything else, I almost wonder if he was a little hurt or something.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tangent

Injury concerns are one reason Hanson’s a better prospect. Hellickson’s missed some time in three seasons now.

Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Aug 19, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea injuries have been a concern

but they were also a concern for Niemann and knock on wood, they haven’t affected him this year. I don’t understand injury concerns as a reason to keep a guy in the minors. If he is going to get hurt he is going to get hurt no matter where he is and if he is better than an option currently in the majors than keeping him in AAA because he might get hurt is stuipd.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

like I said above his AAA numbers are skewed by 1 start

considering he has only 5 starts it hurts. He has gone at least 6 innings with 2 or less runs in 4 of 5 starts. and in his last 2 starts he gave up 2 solo HR’s, with one coming after coming out in the 8th when he was over 100 pitches so that shouldn’t have happened.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

BUT YOU ARE SAYING HE'S BEEN DOMINANT!

Then you want to throw out a start. Jeez this is infuriating.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you don't want a guy

who gives a QS every 4 out of 5 games than feel free, I’ll take that guy every day.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

just the guy I was going to ask about

as someone who has actually seen Hellickson pitch what are your thoughts. I’ve seen him pitch as well and he impresses me a lot more than Price did in AAA. He has much better control/command and his stuff is just slightly less electric but not by much.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't see Price in AAA so I can't say

obviously his stats indicate ineffectiveness. I like Hellickson, and I think it’s closer with him and Hanson than others think, but I have a few concerns with Hellickson.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 19, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or too many mistakes

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stuff, projectability, injury concerns

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

If I ever get some time I have a Helly post

I think he has been pretty dominant

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 19, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you waited until guys dominated AAA before calling them up

Then the majors would be filled with AAAA players and a number of very good major leaguers wouldn’t make it to the majors until late in their careers. Sometimes letting someone learn in MLB is the better developmental option.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

But who do you displace for Hellickson?

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nobody right now

But in my opinion it would be unwise to leave Davis down in AAA just because he hasn’t been dominant enough there.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not comfortable with his walks nor his ability to put away lefties consistently

I do like that he should end the season around 180 IP. Another 100 at Durham next year and a mid-season callup would do him well.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe, if you plan on not moving him

But he’ll lose significant value as a trade asset if you’d rather keep the rotation we already have.

And frankly, at this point, if he hasn’t learned how to do something by now, after 5 years in the minors, there’s a pretty solid chance he’ll never learn it. It’s not like Davis has been rushed. He’s been moved slow as hell actually.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

A plus change would do him a world of good

Maybe being around Shields could help that, but from what I’ve heard Xavier is the real deal behind that.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Once again

He’s been in AAA for over a year now. If he hasn’t picked it up there by now, then it ain’t happening.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

thats my point as to why keeping Brignac in AAA for an extra 10 games until Sep is stupid

if he hasn’t learned it yet there, he isn’t going to learn it between now and Sep 1. Bring him up and keep him here.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's just roster maneuvering

Team doesn’t want to have to cut guys. Bradford came off the DL, someone had to leave the 25-man. Simple as that.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know it is just frustrating that they refuse to get rid of a loogy

it is like they get attached to players (Joe Dillon) and they refuse to dump them until the last possible oppurtunity.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Davis will be 24 next year

He’s probably done developing in the minors.

Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Aug 19, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

As I stated a million comments ago I want guys to come up when their arms are done growing

I would prefer to elevate a guy when he is 25-26 rather than 23-24 simply because it is easier to monitor and control innings at lower levels. Even if he doesn’t upgrade a thing, once we do bring him up he is in a better position to give us 200+ innings for 6 years.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's going to through about 160 innings for the 2nd straight year

Literally there’s not much else he can do.

Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Aug 19, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Make that 3 straight

He threw 158 in 2007, 160 last year, and 138 so far this year

Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Aug 19, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea there is no reason to keep Davis in AAA next year

he needs to be in the rotation, in the bull-pen, or traded. If Tabot hadn’t gotten hurt I would have said the same thing about him too. Basically the same as Sonnanstine should have been this year. There is no point in having him in AAA. If we weren’t going to use him in the rotation or Pen he should have been traded unless literally nobody offered anything of value for him.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm very interested to see how he does after his Sept call up

I think he will be death to righties out of the pen, though he won’t be pulled for lefties and those are the guys that concern me. I can’t find L/R splits for MILB data, but I would love to see his slash lines vs. each. If he is afraid of getting hammered by lefties so he just puts them on first then we have a whole other debate than if he walks both types.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

his FIP is 3.03 against RH and 5.00 against LH

interesting he has given up 4 HR in 91 1/3 innings vs RH but 8 in 60 1/3 vs LH

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for taking the time to look that up

So my guess is he not only is more homer prone, but consequently, he is also more walk prone. He really needs to figure this out as batters come in both types at the ML level and almost all of them mash their oppo-handed brethren

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most good pitchers have already peaked by the time they hit 25

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't want Prior's

I want guys that can give us 6 years of 200+ innings. Right now I’d take Harang over Peavy

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can't change genetics and the like

Granted, having 22 YO pitchers throw 250 innings is stupid. But who’s to say these guys would have done any better had they stayed in the minors longer? Other than egregious cases of major league abuse, I tend to think they just would have spent their best years in the minors, and that the major league team then no longer gets the benefit out of what little time they had that they were really good. Most guys lose velocity little by little the older they get though.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Velocity alone does not make a great pitcher

My hope is that they learn something about pitching instead of just relying on a better skill set. I do tend to agree that a thrower is better when younger and could waste their best years in essentially meaningless games. I’ve also been wan to think that the best thing you can do from an organizational standpoint is to burn out young pitchers while they are cheap and then give them the boot once they start having arm troubles or get expensive. To use the parlance of our times, Dusty Baker’d

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

no one

but that is why you open up trade offers for Kaz, Davis, and even guys like Garza/Shields. If we can improve at other positions and for the long-term than it will have great value than the difference for 1 year of Kaz>Hellickson or Davis.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think the issue is whether the Rays ought to consider

trading starting pitchers for depth elsewhere. I think the issue is whether they should anticipate the need to do so before it is clearly apparent. And on that score, my answer is “generally no”.

I don’t think there are hard and fast rules here. Suppose the Rangers were willing to deal us Smoak for Hellickson. I think the Rays might consider it. That is not the point.

What is the point is that, aside from that trade being most unlikely, I don’t think the Rays should be assuming (1). that in 2010 there will be a glut of pitching that has to be thinned out or (2). that our minor league pitching prospects will lose value if they are not dealt soon.

If those pitchers are really good, they will retain their value to any team hungry for pitching. Or they can be used to replace a major league pitcher who is traded at the peak of his value. I do not see the urgency in pursuing deals of that sort now when the dangers far outweigh the expected benefits. And I do not think that a surplus of talent at any position is ever a negative. A smart front office can always adjust so as to maximize the value of its talent.

by bobr on Aug 19, 2009 10:42 AM EDT reply actions  

Exactly.

Ask Boston if Buccholz value is still up there.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Boston doesn't need to maximize value since they have an unlimited payroll

And the overall value from keeping Clay is less than what it would have been if they moved him. Perhaps they could have landed Sabathia and won the WS last year? Obviously thats just speculation, but you can’t say that because a player is still good and has value that an alternate course of action wouldn’t have brought more value. The goal is to maximize value to the team. Buccholz is going to have value virtually no matter what they do, but the key for teams like the Rays is to maximize that value.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is where I stand.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

It depends on how long they are kept in the system, what players you have on your team/system, how good they are going to be now and in the future, and what their trade value is

Every single player is unique.

Perhaps leaving Buccholz in the system this long is the best action for the Red Sox. That just would require him to dominate in the future, trade value that doesn’t equal that dominance, and be very pedestrian right now. If he had enormous trade value last year and the RS weren’t really planning on committing to him for a couple years then very likely the value maximizing choice would have been to trade him. Of course that requires a dance partner.

For example if the Rays keep Davis down (or do not start him next year) then it is almost certain that trading for Bay may have been the proper thing to do (Gross/Kapler is the wild card). The time value of returns does matter. If Davis is a huge participator next year then it is far more likely that not dealing him was the correct move.

There are tons of things to do consider, but it comes down to adding the most value to the team in both the short term and long term (with shorter periods counting for more).

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's the theory

You only have so many guys who can be on the field at the same time. If you (hypothetically) have 7 four-win starters, the value of the guys who end up in the pen drops from 4 wins to about 1.5 wins. Someone else should be willing to pay more for those 2.5 wins you’re not utilizing. Further, if you have a hole elsewhere, then you gain a greater marginal value by filling it. The difference in value between, say, a starting 1B and a relief pitcher is pretty great, simply because of how much they get on the field. If you can get a 3.5 win 1B to displace a 1.5 win replacement-level 1B, then you can trade your 4-win starter and still win the deal. THAT’s maximizing value. Letting the 4-win pitcher languish in a 1.5 win role until the perception becomes that he’s actually only a 1.5 win pitcher means you lose the value, both on the actual team, and in the future trade value.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bingo

Explained it better than I could ever

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, but we have long-term ones

Which is why it’s not necessarily the worst thing in the world to trade for prospects, even though we’re not in a ‘rebuilding’ mode.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes it does

He just gave the obvious example that the average joe could work through. Working through time values and probabilities of success would become a bigger factor with prospects…but the same principal exists. You want to gain the most overall value to the organization.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't want to get too complicated with the example

But it applies just the same for future value as for current value.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it gets murkier.

Whatever, though, I don’t really disagree.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well at some point you have to at least trade two

Hellickson and Davis are starting at the ML level at some point.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe, maybe not

Not every good starting prospect becomes a starter. There have been rumblings for years that Davis would make a better closer than a starter.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't be opposed to Phil Hughes-ing Davis

next year, and if he’s dominant from the pen just turn him into the closer

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 19, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hughes is my comparison for Davis

personally

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've said for awhile now than I would like to see Davis in the pen in September

if not sooner. I think Sonny/Davis in the pen would be better than our 2 loogys and/or Springer.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then trade him?

If the Rays do not think he is going to crack the rotation then trade him to a team that values him a heck of a lot more than we do.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Closer still has a ton of value

As much as certain writers here ignore this fact, back-end relievers still cost a lot more money on the open market than middle relievers. If you can manufacture your own top-level back end reliever, then you save a lot of money AND create more trade value than their actual contribution would indicate.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the argument generally is that it is stupid of a small market team to break the bank for a closer

It doesn’t mean you want crappy relievers. Cost controlled good relief is sweet.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 19, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

That isn't what he is saying

He is saying that reallocating the teams resources in a way where team value is maximzied, or in this case WAR is much preferred.

Essentially due to value of each position a team should trade every single reliever that it has that another team values as a good starter. Theyd gain more via the trade than they would with the guy pitching relief.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not necessarily.

Mo Rivera has been about a 3 win player every year out of the BP. That doesn’t factor in leverage either. A reliever can be worth up to 4 wins if he’d dominant and used a lot in high leverage situations.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

Although when I hear “put him in the bullpen” I don’t immediately think throw him into the closer role.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Garza probably nets a lot more in return

And Garza isn’t significantly better than Kazmir on the field.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think he brings as much back considering his contract, the fact that he has probably already plateaued

and that Garza is still Arby for another 2 years

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think a main hurdle for some folks here is that we are supposed to "win a trade"

It isn’t about winning a singular trade. It is about making the team and organization better as a whole. Sometimes you can lose a trade (in a vacuum), but win as an organization

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

In theory it sounds great

but what you think you might have and what you really have could be totally different.
How would we know how many wins Davis/Hellickson were worth?

Plus you would have to be able to find a trade partner looking that wants what you have and is willing to give up what you need. Not as easy as it sounds

Bring Your Z-Game!

by Sveet on Aug 19, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are no hard and fast rules for anything

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

If the Rangers were willing to deal us Smoak for Hellickson

Friedman would probably jizz in his pants.

A smart front office can always adjust so as to maximize the value of its talent.

Sure, but there is such a thing as attrition. It runs both ways. Sure, you need depth to handle your own attrition, but once the attrition occurs, you lose all the value that you had in the depth. With 8 guys fighting for rotation spots next year, trading one of them shouldn’t be particularly painful if you can get value out of it.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course

But given our surplus in young starting pitching it could have actually been the correct move to OVERPAY for a guy like Smoak and Posey. The sum of the organization is what matters, not the individual parts. We have to factor in diminishing returns.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

anyone notice of the 4 teams with 4 returners 3 of them are high payroll teams

and the 4th the Royals are only up there because they overpaid for Meche. For a team with a low payroll like ours the only way to retain success throughout is to make sure the farm system stays healthy and deep and the best way to do that is that when your guys in AAA are ready to make the jump to the majors and the players blocking them are due for money soon you trade them. So with Kazmir due for a payday soon it would make sense to try to move him now because Davis and Hellickson are ready. I’m not a big fan of leaving one of those 2 down in AAA all next year but that is probably going to be the best course or action unless someone backs the truck up for Garza or Shields, which I don’t think will happen but if they do we should listen because we have the luxery of depth. We shouldn’t refuse to trade a SP because we need to keep depth out of fear. I do think there is a certain amount of value that is lost however if a pitcher is kept in AAA for too long. outside of being hurt right now, Mitch Talbot has very little value because he has been stashed in AAA for 2 years, yet I’m sure he would make a solid #5 starter on most teams if not a #4.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:02 AM EDT reply actions  

for the Royals he was

they could have used the money more wisely and helped with the other 2484 holes they had on their team.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 19, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

That doesn't make him overpaid.

Maybe an inefficient use of resources. He was a 4+ win pitcher the last two years.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Meh

They’ve invested wisely in the draft since then. They have made other dumb moves, but having a guy that has significant surplus value isn’t dumb. If you can’t afford him you could always trade him.

by rglass44 on Aug 19, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Jacobs comes to mind

I know they needed a power bat, but be judicious.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 19, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Talbot is a key part

That is why I was saying it could very well be in the organizations best interest to move two guys this offseason.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Talbot is very fringy to be trading guys away to open up a spot for him

I still don’t see him being much better than a slightly above-average middle releiver.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 19, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't even know where Talbot is

He was hurt, rehabbed in the GCL but hasn’t played since like August 2nd

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 19, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I want Talbot to be the guy that fills in when someone is injured

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 19, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

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