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From Project Prospect, a review of Tim Beckham based on watching him play. Not particularly encouraging.

http://www.projectprospect.com/article/2009/08/21/tim-beckham-scouting-report

5 months ago Tiny bobr 33 comments 0 recs  | 

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I think he put way too much weight into assumptions and shortstop.

If Beckham moved to third or center, it’s not the end of the world.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 22, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do not consider his evaluation

authoritative at all. In my view he puts too much weight into his observations on Tim’s body type.

And saying he does not think the power will ever be more than average is rather vague to me. Average for a shortstop? Seems to me that a 19 year old with 30 doubles in low A is doing pretty well in the power department.

As for speed, I am more interested in his other tools such as hands, arm et al if he remains at shortstop. In any case, he has improved his SB% recently. Prior to the all-star break he was 3/9. since then he is 7/10.

Beckham has not taken the pros by storm, but he has also not been overmatched and has shown improvement this year over last at a higher level.

by bobr on Aug 22, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've heard the concerns about his body type before.

As in since last year, so it’s not a new development. Is it affecting his range/speed? Well, even he doesn’t know.

This is his first full pro season, I’m not really surprised his numbers have dipped near the end of the season. He’s still young for the league and young in general.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 22, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have any of you actually seen him play?

Or are you just going off of high school reports? Questions about Beckham’s lower half are coming up because it’s the most disproportionate lower half I’ve probably seen on a position prospect this year.

Beckham’s value and comps were to Jeter prior to the draft based on this:

1. Staying at SS
2. Stealing 20+ bags/year
3. Batting .300 perennially
4. Showing 15 or more home run potential.

At this point, I only see number 3 being a real possibility. 1 and 4 are iffy. 2 is becoming more and more unlikely.

After seeing players like Jason Heyward, Mike Stanton, and Jesus Montero in person, Beckham currently doesn’t belong in the same category when discussing prospects.

If his value is based on a strong all-around game because he doesn’t have one tool that ranks elite, then his moving off of SS, or not developing speed is a much bigger deal than a player who does something at an elite level.

I ONLY discuss prospects I have seen in person. When I write a piece saying Beckham isn’t THAT much better than Oscar Tejeda, it’s because I’ve seen both play on multiple occasions.

Mike Newman

by ScoutingTheSally on Aug 23, 2009 8:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

RE: Have any of you actually seen him play?

I have not seen Beckham play this season, but I think that more than one of those points is a real possibility.

As bobr mentioned earlier, Beckham has 32 doubles, 4 triples, and 5 home runs in 434 at bats. Derek Jeter at the same level and at a similar age had 14 doubles, 11 triples, and five home runs in 515 at bats. Please don’t get me wrong, I am not arguing that Beckham will be Jeter, but I think Beckham has the potential to him more than15 home runs given the amount of doubles he is hitting.

by Fog Delay on Aug 23, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nope.

His legs are toothpicks. Fail Rays LOL.

So long, Sweet Lime!
Hans Loebel's #1 Fan and #1 Favorite Top Person of All Time. There's no stopping our love, not even rainbows made of ice and steel.

by PlayOnWords on Aug 24, 2009 5:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have seen him play this year.

I do not have your expertise nor would I have the temerity to argue with your analysis of what you observed.

When I saw him, he did nothing at the plate and he seemed to throw awkwardly off the wrong foot a number of times when he had plenty of time to get set and throw properly. He also missed a few balls hit up the middle that the opposing shortstop got to, although perhaps that was due to different positioning or harder hit balls.

My view, though, is that it is too early to make any kind of definite or even confident statements. I have seen nobody rate Beckham as high as the three players you mention, all of whom play in higher leagues and different positions with different skill sets. And while I cannot be certain how significant body type is in determining performance, it seems to me you put an awful lot of stress on it, more than I would expect.

I actually have something of a bias against calling anyone below AA a prospect. I prefer to consider them pre-prospects. It seems to me there is too much that can happen between lower and higher levels and only when they perform at AA can we really begin to make serious judgments. I think that way about even the best regarded players such as Moore and before this year, Jennings.

The best we can do is consider whether they seem to be improving as they move up and whether they are holding their own given their age. And so far, both seem to be the case with Beckham. He is hitting better this year than last and is not overwhelmed as a 19 year old. I don’t know what the evaluation of his growth as a shortstop is, but am less interested in whether he is playing it well than whether he is learning and improving.

The same goes for base running. I don’t expect him to read pitchers well yet, but think it worthwhile to know whether he is getting better at it.

There are a few elite players who are so overwhelming in the lower leagues that we can project a bit, but they are rare. And particularly a player like Beckham whose promise seems to lie more in a broad based set of skills than in a few dramatic talents, it is more likely he will develop slowly and steadily, smoothing out the rough edges and, with his apparent work ethic and character, applying himself to overcome his limitations rather than letting them define him.

Of course, that is optimistic guesswork, but I don’t think that having a particular body type and demonstrating flaws in low A at age 19 mean much either.

by bobr on Aug 24, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hitting better this year than last?

Beckham’s 2008 and 2009 peripherals are very similar. His walk and strikeout rates are nearly the same — walks up a little — and while his isolated power is up a bit, so is his BABIP.

Founder of www.projectprospect.com

by Adam Foster on Aug 24, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the input

If you would be interested in doing some work on some of the other Moore (get it?) interesting prospects out there I would make sure it ends up on the front page. Most of us don’t have time to check it out, but do appreciate honest opinions.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 24, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still too soon for me to say I told you so

But…

Honestly though, I didn’t hate the pick at the time, but I remember getting my head torn off in the offseason when I said I would have rather drafted Alvarez, Smoak or Posey.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 24, 2009 12:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes.

Posey signed for 100K more than Beckham and Alvarez’s contract was only ever so slightly more than Beckham.

Tools Whore

by Tyler on Aug 26, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Posey does kind of hurt

…still not sold on Smoak or Alvarez being more valuable yet. Posey will almost certainly be the best of that bunch

by daveh33 on Aug 24, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about the other Beckham?

I know he would probably have been considered a little bit of a stretch as the first overall pick, but Gordon Beckham was one of the guys who could contribute very quickly and has for the White Sox. He might not have the upside of Posey, but I kind of wanted the Rays to get someone who could get to Tropicana in a year or two.

by Fog Delay on Aug 24, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm surprised by Beckham

now that i get to see his highlights regularly… i must say i like him a lot. i think he has a great swing too.

by daveh33 on Aug 24, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wanted Alvarez at the time too

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 24, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Me too.

I wanted him or Becks.

by rglass44 on Aug 25, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Becks or Posey for me

It seemed like there was about 5 guys that could have gone #1.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 25, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There were 5 guys the team was officially considering

The four mentioned and Skipworth.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 25, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It would have been nice if there had been a clear cut stud.

Although Strasburg is going to make 2.5x what we are paying Beckham and tear his UCL in year 2.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 25, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know we discussed this previously, but in this situation I'd almost definitely prefer the college kids

1. Ceiling close to the same
2. More likely to hit it, because they have less distance to go to hit it
3. Closer to the majors
4. Less likely to be a bust since they are so close

If a HS guy has a definite higher ceiling then I’m all for going for the potential. This wasn’t the case though. Beckham was a major project at #1. Why take the added chance for failure when the upside is the same?

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 26, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haven't there been some studies

to determine whether HS draftees are more or less risky than college ones? I thought I saw at least one such study, broken down into pitchers and position players, but cannot remember the conclusions.

by bobr on Aug 26, 2009 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes and No. Basically you can essentially call it a tie. There were studies going both ways

The thing is, that really only applies if you let a monkey draft. This isn’t random selection. We are able to look at each player on their own merits. I’m not saying that you should always take a college player over a high school player. There are pros and cons to taking both. There are definite conditions when a team should take a college guy over a hs guy and vice versa. This is what I meant by a money drafting. If a monkey picked randomly, then they over the long haul should draft an equal amount of high school/college guys when the proper conditions are met and when they aren’t met. It would be a tie essentially. That doesn’t mean a great GM couldn’t just draft college guys when they should and high school guys when they should. That’ll give them the best long term WAR.

Here is how I envision teams drafting. They essentially plot a WAR probability curve for each player. They calculate all the possible WARs for every year the player is likely to be in the majors and discount it at some rate that they determine. They then plot that curve. College players are going to have one shape and high school players another shape. Of course the ranges will differ by each player. Of course each team will have different curves for each player. Differences do exist.

In short I’d say the time to draft college guys would be when their ceilings are similar to the high school guy. The time to draft high school guys is when they have a higher ceiling. That is the short version.

For Beckham I see his ceiling as similar to Posey, Smoak etc. That represents a time to take the college guy. That doesn’t mean Beckham will suck or that Posey will be great. It just means in the long haul, if we draft a Beckham type every year and some other team drafted a Posey type every year that we would come out on the losing end. Beckham may be a superstar.

Players such as Hamilton, Arod, Mauer, etc with higher ceilings than their college counterparts should usually go ahead of them.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Aug 26, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That makes a lot of sense to me.

There may also be other factors to consider, and one is bonus demands. I know Posey got only about $50,000 more than Beckham, but that was as the #5 pick. It is possible that at #1 he would have commanded considerably more, and that might have affected decisions made about later picks such as Lobstein or about other budgetary matters. Smoak got considerably less, but again that was at #11.

In any case, all things being equal it seems reasonable to pick the more advanced player first if their projections or skill sets are indistinguishable or reasonably close. But all things are rarely equal, and even something as un-quantifiable as character and make-up may sway the organization while more tangible differences (budget, for example) can also have an effect.

by bobr on Aug 26, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like your idea of taking HS guys in the top 5 and in the 4-10 rounds

College guys in the filler.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is a fanpost at Sickels blog

that compares Beckham and Flores (Mets).

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2009/8/24/1000762/beckham-vs-flores

I really think what Mike Newman does is fascinating and deserves attention. But I also think it premature to make any judgments with any degree of confidence.

Like many fans, I always want to see my team’s prospects lauded and get annoyed with negative comments no matter how deserved or realistic they may be. But, in my view, it makes little sense to get worked up over evaluations of low A players.

Incidentally, that is why I think it foolish to judge the Cliff Lee trade by assuming that Knapp was the centerpiece for Cleveland. If he was, then Cleveland did not get value back because I don’t think a low A pitcher can be considered a significant addition. He may become one, but the risk is too much for the benefit. (cf: Jake McGee)

by bobr on Aug 25, 2009 11:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The sky is falling! But not this week.

No. 8 TIM BECKHAM, SS:

Team: low Class A Bowling Green (South Atlantic)
Age: 19
Why He’s Here: .500/.538/.750 (12-for-24), 4 2B, 1 3B, 6 R, 2 RBIs, 1 BB, 2 SO
The Scoop: Overall, Beckham’s first full season has been a success. He’s hitting .283/.337/.409 with 33 doubles, four triples and five home runs. Dig a little deeper into his statistics, though, and you’ll see that Beckham sports a strong reverse split. In 92 at-bats against lefthanders this season, he’s hitting .228/.280/.304. It’s also interesting to note that Beckham has hit much better on the road (.325/.373/.496) than at home (.237/.299/.313). Reports indicate that he has put on some weight, which is a concern, as are his 107 strikeouts in 115 games.

Tools Whore

by Tyler on Aug 28, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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