The Rays, A Stadium and the St. Pete Mayoral Election
DISCLAIMER: If you are someone who believes that the Rays do not need a new stadium in order to remain competitive, stop reading this article right now. All of the presentation and analysis in the following article presupposes that the Rays require a new stadium in order to solidify their long-term position as a competitor in the American League East. There are credible arguments refuting this proposition, but those arguments are given no space in the following paragraphs.
For those readers who live in the Tampa Bay area, you may be at least vaguely familiar with the fact that the city of St. Petersburg is currently conducting a primary election for its next mayor. The primary election will be concluded on September 1st, and the general election will be held on November 3rd. Outgoing mayor Rick Baker is term-limited out of office and as a result, after 8 years, the city of St. Petersburg will have a new chief officer. In normal times, it is essential for a sports team to have a good working relationship with the mayor’s office of the team’s home city. Services such as public transportation, security and parking are typically provided at least in part through the mayor’s office (meaning that in some instances the city will provide the security or will help facilitate overflow parking or coordinate public transportation schedules). Having an ally in the mayor’s office then, as the Rays have had in Mayor Baker, can go a long way towards the successful operation of a franchise.
The stakes are higher than normal right now (which is why I am writing this article). Because the Rays need a new stadium in order to survive in this market (if you disagree, please go back to the Disclaimer at the top of this page and re-read), the relationship with the next mayor of St. Petersburg will be the single most important relationship for the team in that quest for a new facility. There are three primary ways in which a positive relationship with the mayor will benefit the Rays ability to secure a new facility: 1) securing of public finance; 2) determining the future of the operating covenant with St. Pete; and 3) generating public support for the Rays’ new stadium. (Continues after the Jump)
A new stadium will require the use of public dollars. "Public dollars" means money pledged from the State of Florida, the county in which the stadium is ultimately located (probably Pinellas or Hillsborough) and the city in which the stadium is ultimately located (St. Petersburg or Tampa are two possible candidates). The county commissions of Pinellas and Hillsborough are the entities responsible for allocating county dollars and state funding will likely come from the governor’s office or from already allocated sources of revenue. For the city dollars, however, an individual city council is responsible for allocating city money, and these allocations are often made with the input and discussion of the mayor. An allied mayor can help shepherd the team through the lengthy and costly process of authorizing the use of public city dollars. This is especially true in the case of the Rays because of the fact that the existing financing structure for the Trop will remain in place until 2016 and any new city debt will need to take into consideration the repayment of the existing obligations. This aspect of the Rays’ relationship with the City of St. Petersburg – that there is existing debt still in place for the Trop – ensures that the mayor will wield significant influence in creating city financing structures for any new stadium.[i]
The second area of importance for the new mayor with regard to the Rays is the operating covenant. The Rays currently have an operating agreement with the City of St. Petersburg that runs through 2027. What this means is that the Rays are contractually obligated to play their home baseball games within the boundaries of the City of St. Petersburg for 18 more years – an obligation that is commonly referred to as the "Operating Covenant" between the Rays and the City of St. Petersburg. The Operating Covenant does not permit the Rays to play elsewhere in Pinellas County; the operation of the baseball team must be within the boundaries of the City of St. Petersburg. As the chief executive of St. Petersburg, the next mayor is probably the only individual person (City Council excepted) who has authority to spearhead an effort modify or terminate the Operating Covenant. So, if the determination is made that the best site for a new Rays stadium is somewhere outside of the boundaries of the City of St. Petersburg, the next mayor could have a pivotal role, if not the exclusive role, in determining whether or not the Operating Covenant can be modified or broken. Hypothetically, if the Rays determined that the best site for a new stadium is in downtown Tampa, the mayor of St. Petersburg would be left with three choices: 1) enforce the Operating Covenant by filing a lawsuit against the Rays; 2) attempt to negotiate a settlement with the Rays for the amount of damages caused by the Rays leaving St. Petersburg; or 3) let the Rays break the Operating Covenant without payment of damages. Clearly, option #3 is unlikely and option #1 is the worst case scenario. Therefore, option #2 seems like the best-case scenario and, not surprisingly, the area in which the next mayor of St. Petersburg will have the most individual discretion. [ii]
The third (and less tangible) reason why the next mayor is critical is public perception. The next mayor can help sell the eventual stadium plan to the public at large in a way that Stu, Matt and the rest of the Rays cannot. As a public official, the mayor has a built-in platform from which to help convince the citizens of St. Petersburg (and to a lesser extent, the citizens of Pinellas County) that the stadium plans suggested by the Rays are in the long-term interest of the community.[iii] The public will always view the Rays ownership with some skepticism, rightly or wrongly, so there will be built-in animosity towards whatever stadium plan is ultimately adopted. However, the support of the next mayor, particularly if the new stadium site is outside of the City of St. Petersburg, will go a long way towards dissipating some of the public anger that is sure to follow.[iv]
So, this is the long-winded way of saying that the outcome of the St. Petersburg mayoral election could be the single-most important event in the years-long process of determining a new home for the Tampa Bay Rays. For your entertainment pleasure, what follows is a breakdown of the public policy stances of each of the six most likely candidates regarding the future home of the Tampa Bay Rays[v]. This information was taken from the St. Petersburg Times website and represents direct quotes from each of the candidates, as presented during the editorial board review of the St. Pete Times.[vi] My comments, and analysis, follow the text of each of the candidates. I encourage you to vote (if you live in St. Petersburg) as every vote will count in this election.
Jaime Bennett[vii]:
Keeping baseball in St. Petersburg is a top priority.
To forge a winning resolution, the Mayor must understand how and why we got here. There’s just no substitute for reading the contracts, vetting the plans and knowing the issue inside and out. Simply put: it’s not an issue any Mayor can solve simply by wanting to fix it – especially a Mayor who has to learn the history of the issue after taking office.
Two points will guide my actions and efforts to keep baseball in St. Petersburg. First, the Rays are not the enemy. They are and must continue to be a partner in this process and a partner in the future of the city. Second, I am not opposed to a new home for the Rays in St. Petersburg and will work to make sure the Rays are the envy of baseball in their performance on the field and with the facilities they call home.
Our challenge is balancing the needs of the team with their existing commitments and our commitments to St. Petersburg tax payers who built Tropicana Field. On that side of the equation, I have three guiding principles. First, the next Mayor and council must retire the existing bonds issued for the current facility before new bonds can be issued for new facilities. Second, while I am open to exploring sites in St. Petersburg, I will not support locations outside the city. Finally, the process from negotiations to site selection to contracting must be open. Some parts may even require referendum – which I will campaign for and support as I supported the referendum to keep our airport which passed with 72% of the vote.
Let me also add my preference for a stadium site which can be connected with commuter rail lines serving Tampa and Central Florida.
I believe a resolution is possible that will afford the Rays the facilities they desire, protect the tax payer, keep baseball in St. Petersburg. The process won’t be easy or swift – it has never been in other major league cities. But it is possible and I am committed to it as a Council Member and will be as Mayor.
Analysis: Candidate Bennett has the stated intention of remaining an ally of the Rays and draws on his history with the team as a City Council member. This commitment, however, exists only if the Rays keep the team in St. Petersburg, although not necessarily at the current site.
Kathleen Ford[viii]:
The City has an agreement with the Rays. The City Charter states that it is the Mayor's obligation to enforce all city contracts. Thus, if the Rays' owners want a new stadium, the Rays need City Council approval before the Mayor can legally discuss this issue. The City has no need for a new stadium. Tropicana Field meets the City's obligation under the terms of the Stadium Use Agreement. If the Rays want a new stadium at the end of the lease agreement with the City, then the Rays can build and pay for their own stadium wherever they want as is their choice. In the event that the Rays seek any public funding or public assets, or the use of public assets then I would seek referendum approval of the voters prior to proposing it to City Council. The stadium is easy to access from Bradenton, Sarasota and Manatee from the south and Tampa, Wesley Chapel, Lutz, and new Tampa from the east. Thus, I do not want it built anywhere else than where it currently is.
Analysis: If the Rays are not already scared of Kathleen Ford as mayor, they should be. She believes a new stadium cannot be built until after the expiration of the Operating Covenant (2027) and her belief that the Rays "can build and pay for their own stadium" reflects a lack of understanding of the relationship between municipalities and sports teams.
Bill Foster[ix]:
I am fully aware of the desire of the Rays organization to have a new stadium, and equally aware of the respective economic impacts 1) for the owners with the construction of a new stadium, and 2) to the City by having a major league baseball team in St. Petersburg. Historically, in the late 80's and early 90's, I was a part of a team that sold seat deposits, and lobbied for the expansion of MLB to St. Petersburg. After a great effort, and many heartaches, we finally succeeded. With all of the community effort it took to get the team, we must exert as much, if not more, effort to keep this team in St. Petersburg. I will take a leadership role with our "partners and stakeholders" (our Citizens, Rays, MLB, Florida, Pinellas), to negotiate the use agreement of a new facility located in St. Petersburg, with construction beginning sometime after 2015, which encompasses all 85+ acres of the Trop site. Whatever the use and financing terms, it must be such that passes the muster of our citizen who may be asked to pay a portion of the bills. My terms: 1) approved by voter referendum; 2) construction to begin after 2015 (when the property is free and clear); 3) little taxpayer burden, with primary financing by the Rays, TDC, and bonds secured by revenues; and 4) constructed at existing Trop site. If we all do our jobs equitably and correctly, it should pass a vote by our citizens, but timing, location, design, and financing are critical elements.
Analysis: Candidate Foster’s plan contains more concrete details than any other and his history with Tropicana underscores a complete understanding of the issues. He is committed to keeping baseball at the current site, which the Rays and the ABC Committee have determined is no longer feasible. His statements regarding a potential financing structure are realistic and well balanced.
Deveron Gibbons[x]:
I believe retaining baseball is critically important to the city of St. Petersburg. It is an economic driver for our local businesses, a means of uniting our community and an enormous branding opportunity for the city. I want to retain baseball in St. Petersburg and will work vigorously to do so.
Specifically:
1. St. Petersburg’s waterfront is NOT the appropriate location for a new stadium, yet I do believe there are other viable locations within the city where the team can locate and thrive. I will work with all interested parties – the Rays, the business community, the ABC Baseball Committee, citizens groups, and baseball fans to identify a location that meets the team’s needs and those of the city.
2. If the team leaves the dome area, I believe that we must find a realistic and meaningful way to support the economy of that area of the city, whether that is a mixed use development as the team’s owner has proposed, a green energy facility as some have argued or another use. A vibrant use of that area of the city is critical to the city’s wellbeing.
3. I am opposed any new taxes. For this reason, I believe that if public money is used in any way – tax revenue or bond revenue – to construct a new stadium, the public must approve, by referendum, any expenditures related both to that new stadium and the infrastructure a new stadium would require.
Analysis:Candidate Gibbons would seemingly be a partner with the Rays if the team remains in St. Petersburg. His statement rejects the waterfront as a location, but lacks specifics as to what other non-Trop sites may be feasible. He indicates no new taxes will be used to build a new stadium and believes a referendum is needed to authorize any public money. Because of the lack of details, it is difficult to discern his position.
Scott Wagman[xi]:
I believe that a strong case can be made for a new stadium. Tropicana Field is deficient in it's luxury suites, concourse configuration and concession contract terms. I suspect that it's air conditioning system is grossly inefficient and in need of replacement. The fabric roof has bullet holes in it(!). It is true that they meant to paint the exterior but ran out of budget and the color scheme would have looked better than Creme du Concrete, but, it is what it is. I seriously doubt that a renovation is practical. This city, county, beaches and even the state has to decide if it wants to be viewed as a big league, sophisticated destination to not just vacation at, but to live, learn, work and retire in. I think it took too much risk and investment to not embrace the Rays with enthusiasm. That said, I think that we are going to have to negotiate a very complex, difficult and politically risky deal that has the potential to upset many citizen and even be less than ideal for the Rays. I think that the Rays will have to commit to a significant portion of the cost of the stadium, or, in return for a lower contribution, to cede a portion of ownership or profit share to the City. If we provide capital, we could reasonably ask for a portion of the profits, especially upon a sale of the team. Another item is that I question the need for a retractable roof. It was mentioned that the proposed glass retractable roof for a Tropicana renovation would cost $200MM of the $470MM tab. Would the Rays actually open the roof in the months of May-September? That MLB has decreed that baseball was meant to be played in the open air does not motivate me to agree to spending $200MM for a sunroof that may be used 3-6 times per year. I would strike a conciliatory tone over the next 2-3 years to engender the cooperation that we would need between ALL parties that will be involved in financing a new stadium. Bond financing will be a given, in what form I cannot say. I would prefer that the stadium be built on the existing Tropicana site, closer to 1st Av S. and have it tied into a future TBARTA stop. Parking and infrastructure is in place and this site could be much more effectively tied into the heart of Downtown. In 10 years, I see a dramatically different and developed area from 10th St to Beach Drive. The next Mayor must have significant experience in high level, contentious and complex negotiations.
Analysis:Candidate Wagman’s identification of the issues seems to dovetail with what the Rays have publicly said are the deficiencies with the current facility. Wagman’s statement that the stadium deal will be "difficult and politically risky" is perhaps a nod to the fact that the stadium won’t be built in St. Petersburg. Along with Candidate Foster, Wagman offers the most details of any candidate and Wagman is only candidate to acknowledge how needed, but difficult, a new stadium deal will be.
Larry Williams[xii]:
There needs to be a new approach from the Mayor's office. I would aggressively reach out to all of St. Petersburg, Pinellas County and other cities within a two hour drive time to Tropicana Field. This team is their team too. It is my contention that the best position for the City be in, in the event a new stadium is needed, is to keep the Rays in St. Petersburg, and to demonstrate to the ownership that St. Petersburg is a major league city and can support the team. Yes, I would support a new stadium, if a new stadium is necessary to keep the Rays in St. Petersburg. Why? I believe that Major League Baseball provides a real 'economic driver' to St. Petersburg, that is critically important to the future of our city. I have previously provided a document detailing what I believe, "baseball does for St. Petersburg" and why it is important that baseball stay in St. Petersburg. How to pay? I would solicit all potential funding sources and yes the city would have to participate, however, I do believe the city's position is strengthened by showing support of the team now.
If a new stadium is necessary, I would very seriously consider investigating that the area adjacent to the stadium, be a family destination. This type venue could play a significant role in minimizing tax payers funds for a new stadium. Where to build? #1 Tropicana Field renovation; #2 Tropicana site. Should a new stadium become a needed reality, the Tropicana site would be suitable for the new stadium and the 'family destination' scenario.
Analysis:Candidate Williams understands the positive externalities associated with having a professional baseball team in the area. Interestingly, he also is the only candidate that specifically mentions other municipalities and their involvement in keeping the team in St. Petersburg a potential sign that he would be open to other sites. However, his priority list at the end of his statement identifies Tropicana (renovation or new) as the preferred site.
FOOTNOTES:[i]Of course, any financing plan for a stadium built with St. Petersburg dollars would need to be approved by the St. Petersburg City Council (including the vote of the mayor, who has a seat on City Council). The mayor’s ability to steer the Rays through what is a hugely political process would be an invaluable help in the quest for a new stadium.
[ii] In my opinion, this point right here – the termination or modification of the Operating Covenant is perhaps the most political of all of the issues involved. If the Rays moved to another municipality, whether Carrillon, Tampa or somewhere else in Hillsborough before 2027, the Rays would almost surely have to pay an enormous sum of money as damages for breaking the Operating Covenant. Nobody really knows what this amount would actually be, but my best guess would probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 million, at the very least. So, whenever you hear people talking about the cost of a new stadium, if that stadium is not in the City of St. Petersburg, don’t forget in the back of your mind to factor in the cost of breaking the Operating Covenant.
[iii]This paragraph assumes that the stadium will be located in St. Petersburg and/or Pinellas County. I would argue, though, that the central point – that the mayor can influence the public perception of the Rays’ plan – holds true if the Rays decide to move the team to Tampa. It’s just that in the case of the Rays’ moving to Tampa, the St. Petersburg mayor would become an enemy and not an ally of the team. In either situation, the influence of the mayor remains.
[iv] This is an interesting situation. I would argue that the best that the Rays can hope for, if the team moves out of St. Petersburg, is silence from the next mayor. From a realpolitik standpoint, any mayor, particularly if they are in a re-election cycle, will never come out and feverishly support the move of a professional sports team out of their jurisdiction. This would have disastrous public consequences. However, if the mayor remains silent, and does not wage a protracted legal battle with the Rays in order to enforce the Operating Covenant, that could be the best-case scenario for the Rays.
[v] Because it is impossible to fully present all of the relevant details, below is the campaign websites for each of the candidates discussed. Candidates’ policy stances will change, especially after the primary, so check these sites for more information. Jamie Bennett(www.onestpetersburg.com); Kathleen Ford (www.kathleenford.com); Bill Foster (www.billfosterformayor.com); Deveron Gibbons (www.gibbonsformayor.com); Scott Wagman (www.scottwagman.com); Larry Williams (www.larrywilliamsformayor.com)
[vi] I decided to use these quotes, rather than piece-meal public statements, because I believe that these statements represent the most coherent and comprehensive of the candidates’ positions regarding the stadium. In other forums, the candidates have been asked pointed questions, where the reported answers may or may not have been taken out of context. The statements I have provided in this section represent the complete candidate position, as articulated by the candidates themselves, with no spin or filler.
[vii]http://elections.tampabay.com/candidate/jaime-bennett/
[viii]http://elections.tampabay.com/candidate/kathleen-ford/
[ix]http://elections.tampabay.com/candidate/bill-foster/
[x]http://elections.tampabay.com/candidate/deveron-gibbons/
[xi]http://elections.tampabay.com/candidate/scott-wagman/
[xii]http://elections.tampabay.com/candidate/larry-williams/
This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.
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Informative, relatively unbiased and topical. Lets keep the comments the same way.
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some interesting points to ponder
I think some of the more interesting ideas for rays stadium is the possibility of making it the future of ‘green’ stadiums. Perhaps the Rays/St. Pete can make this the model for future stadiums in this capacity. (see http://www.edhelm.com/) Note: I am not trying to advocate another candidate, i’m just referencing some of the specifics he’s mentioned about ‘going green’. If the Rays can try this angle, then there may be other funds available to help this.
The second most interesting item has to be “Let me also add my preference for a stadium site which can be connected with commuter rail lines serving Tampa and Central Florida.” – Jaime Bennett
This fits in line with the Rays trying to connect central Florida into Rays territory. Another way to add to the idea of ‘going green’ and perhaps helping this area of the state secure Recovery Act funds for a railsystem…what a better selling point if it can somehow be connected to a sports team to show recreational use in addition to business?
Thirdly, the idea of creating a ‘family situation’ within the same site is just plain smart. If the Rays/St. Pete can put together a way for the site to be used, good for baseball, and good for community, it also makes it another way to get more money allocated for the project.
I think if the Rays are going to stay in St. Pete, it is going to need some creativity. If they could ‘go green’ and be connected to a rail system throughout central florida, it would allow people in the surrounding area the ability to go to games and not deal with the traffic, thus making it a whole lot ‘closer’ to them, without having to move the stadium outside of St. Pete. I think this point has the greatest impact on whether the Rays stay in St. Pete or not.
by raysfaninminnesota on Aug 24, 2009 9:51 AM EDT reply actions
Great point
The concept of “going green” will be incorporated into whatever new/renovated stadium ends up being built. This was a point that I omitted largely because Ed Helm’s plan just came out and didn’t make it to me before press time (I was at the mayoral debate last week and he kept referencing this plan, but it wasn’t published yet).
I know that HoK/Populous (the stadium design firm that has been involved with the Rays) is studying ways to incorporate the newest green building technologies into modern stadium design. Especially because of the ability to attract federal dollars for large infrastructure projects that are deemed green, or achieve some level of certification, I think this will be huge going forward.
by Elvis Lives on Aug 24, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow that would be great if they could get solar panels and windmills on the retractable roof.
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 24, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Getting commuter lines from Tampa to Orlando and St Pete
Is something that more people have an interest in than who typically profess it. High speed access between Tampa and Orlando is good for the Magic, Bucs, Rays, Storm, Lightning, Disney, Busch Gardens, Clearwater Beach, St Pete Beach, tourism in general, TIA, Orlando’s Airport, downtown Tampa, Downtown Orlando, and countless other businesses.
Sure there are many short term costs, and there are infrastructure concerns that make the construction of the rail system difficult, but I would think that connecting major metropolitan communities in Central Florida would create greater access and in turn greater business.
Commuter lines
I believe that the state of Florida has submitted a proposal for a rail system that would connect Orlando and Tampa. The funding is part of the $8B portion of the Stimulus Bill that is directed towards the creation of interlocking railway systems across the US.
Paid for by the Elect Bill Foster campaign
Not a slight, great work. I don’t care if that guy strangles puppies in his spare time, if he is serious about getting a new stadium built for the good of the area, I would vote for him. LOLz that there are bullet holes in the roof, cue Dukes jokes in 3..2..1
I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.
I'm sure all the candidates would be for a stadium under those terms
passes a public vote, stays on the current site, and has very little public financing.
I don’t see how any of those would be feasable for the Rays
Bring Your Z-Game!
even Kathleen Ford
ok maybe not Kathleen Ford
Does anyone else find her stancing ridiculous? Was she part of POW? or just trying to get there votes?
Bring Your Z-Game!
POW
Kathleen Ford was the legal adviser to POW and in this capacity, she drafted several of the amendments that group put forth.
by Elvis Lives on Aug 24, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Site
I have not heard one vialbe solution for keeping the Rays at the current site. The location is just so bad.
by Elvis Lives on Aug 24, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
agreed
you would think the mayoral candidates would be more informed on the location issue. They are crazy if they they expect the Rays to pay millions of dollars for a new stadium at the Trop site
Bring Your Z-Game!
Politics
I think it is just posturing, really. No mayoral candidate in their right mind would talk about moving the stadium, but some of them seem to implicitly recognize that a move is going to be needed.
by Elvis Lives on Aug 24, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Your right the only two that don't are Foster and Ford
If Foster is going to insist on the Trop site he might as well have Ford’s stance. 0 chance that a new stadium gets built on that site and this is coming from someone who lives 5 minutes from there and would love to see a new stadium there.
Bring Your Z-Game!
Anyone but Ford!
This is a great article and very important for the people of St. Pete to realize the implications of the mayoral race on the future of the Rays (and therefore the future of the city). Draysbay should post this in the main section of the blog because it is really important for everyone to be informed before voting and this article is the first real assessment of the impact of the race on the Rays.
Honestly, if Kathleen Ford is elected, it will set the city back 50 years and if I were Sternberg, I would put the team up for sale the day she is elected. There is no future for the Rays or the city if she is elected. More people need to be aware of how destructive her election would be for the team and the city.
Great job, Elvis!
Thats a little much...
Ford is no Stallin or G.W.
by BigBadBossman on Aug 24, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Inside Info?
Does anyone have any inside information about whether the Rays have participated (through financial support) in any of the candidates’ campaigns? Maybe waiting until the general election
Yes
Highest two vote-getters go to the November election. By all accounts, it will be Ford and Foster.
by DamnitGabe! on Aug 24, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Primary - General
Currently, there are 10 candidates in the primary. After September 1, there will only be 2 left. The polls, and general perception, seem to indicate that Ford and Foster will be the two left standing. Wagman and Gibbons have been running close behind.
by Elvis Lives on Aug 24, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
"I would aggressively reach out to all of St. Petersburg, Pinellas County and other cities within a two hour drive time to Tropicana Field. This team is their team too."
I agree with this. I would have no issues with paying some type of stadium tax and I live in Tampa.
That said I would assume it would be very hard to get Pasco, Hillsborough, Polk, etc to agree to something like this.
Has anyone brought up a tourism tax to help fund a new stadium or is that not the best idea with the tourism industry down already?
Po Pimpin'
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Aug 24, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions
Tourism Tax
The ABC Sub-Committee on Finance looked at the tourism taxes. http://blogs.tampabay.com/files/0748_001.pdf
I think that the tourism tax is a tough sell, but that it will be a required part of whatever stadium financing plan comes from these discussions. Where the rubber hits the road is getting the beach tourism lobby to buy-into increasing the tourism taxes in order to fund a stadium. Will the beach folks agree that building a new stadium (with the tourism tax revenue) will generate more revenue than is lost from the imposition of another cent of tax? I’m not sure. But, in reality, there are not a ton of other financing sources available in this area.
by Elvis Lives on Aug 24, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Isn't there a bed tax that is currently going to pay off the Trop?
They should just extend it.
Bring Your Z-Game!
Bed Tax
I think that any financing plans for a new stadium contemplate extending current sources of debt service. One of the economic realities involved is that the current Trop originally had a debt level of about $150M (I think) and the low-end estimates for a new stadium debt level would be approximately $350M. So, there will need to be alternative or additional sources of funding.
by Elvis Lives on Aug 24, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
No problem.
I used to write for Street & Smith’s Sports, so I enjoy this type of thing.
You would say this, Chumpy.
Career Safeco Record: 7-2
by .Taylor on Aug 26, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
St Pete stadium location?
Seems all these candidates are pretty gung-ho on keeping the stadium in the City of St Pete. If that’s the case, and pretty much everyone agrees that downtown/waterfront doesn’t really work – then what is wrong with the current Trop location?
What’s wrong now is that it’s pretty crappy all around it, but that has improved very slightly in the past couple years. From a transporation concern, it’s near 275..which is better than anywhere else IN ST PETE. In the fantasy world where there’s light rail in FL, it could easily connect downtown St Pete, Tampa, and the beaches…and do that well from the Trop location. If someone’s going to figure out a way to build a half a billion dollar stadium there, couldn’t they incorporate the idea of some more mixed development, and real transportation between downtown, the Trop, and the beaches? Even if it’s just a couple of those silly shuttle buses?
I realize there are certainly issues, but if you rule out the downtown/waterfront, there really isn’t another good option that’s in St Pete. (trying to stick with keeping things in St Pete in this question)
Bingo.
I think you have hit on one of the real sticking points in the stadium issue. If you assume that the stadium should stay in St. Pete (proper, not Pinellas) and you don’t build a stadium on the waterfront, then where else? I can only assume that many of the activists who fought the relocation to the waterfront knew this would be the endgame.
Once you expand the desired area outside of St. Pete proper, the political can of worms is blown wide open. I’m sure the Rays would rather keep the stadium in St. Pete (which is why they expended significant time and funds to develop a plan for the waterfront), but as it stands today, where would the Rays be able to build a stadium in St. Pete?
The Gateway area is the other option
I just really can’t imagine Stu dumping a boatload of money into a new stadium and have it put in a location which many people would still have an issue with.
I’m not sure how you say the Trop area is pretty crappy all around. The area around RayJay is much worse IMO. I don’t think the area surrounding is an issue at all.
If area surrounding is an issue then downtown st. pete or channelside area in tampa would be big improvements
Bring Your Z-Game!
You can't compare baseball and football
Baseball is far more about the atmosphere and the culture. With 81 games people go to the games for different reasons than just for the ‘game’ like they would for football. I know many people that go to baseball games just to go to fergs afterwards for example. Nobody does that for football. If there was a better atmosphere around the stadium (eg Channelside) then you’d get far more casual fans going to the game.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
I agree, area around RayJay sux too
But I think that’s more of an issue for a baseball stadium (with 81 games to deal with) than a football stadium. For football, all you need is a parking lot to tailgate 8 times/year. For baseball, developing areas around the stadium, and making it a fun area for everyone is often seen as important.
I totally agree.
I would have loved to see the stadium on the downtown waterfront or in Channelside.
I just don’t think either of those are realistic now.
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Trade Areas
I think the area immediately around a stadium, unless you are attempting what the Nationals did in DC (tried to create an “economic development zone”), is not the biggest driver for stadium location. The key factor is: population demographics. Where do the fans live? Where are the individuals and companies that will buy season tickets? Especially for the Rays, where season tickets are the single largest year-over-year revenue source, selling season tickets is huge.
I have heard statistics, I think in one of the ABC reports, that almost as many season-ticket holders are located in Hillsborough as are located in Pinellas. That would seem to me a reason why the Rays will take a very hard look at Hillsborough as a possible location for the team.
Sports fans drive - if there's a reason
I lived in downtown St Pete a few years ago. I could (and did) walk/bike to the stadium, as well as drive there, and take the bus as well. I love baseball (thus, I’m on this site.) But, I probably only went to about 10 games/year. The team was lousy, the stadium wasn’t nice, and there was nothing except Ferg’s around there.
During the same time period, I had a 1/2 season ticket package for the Lightning. I drove into downtown Tampa for about 20 games/year.
College football isn’t a great comparison for numerous reasons, but people drive hours to attend games in places like Gainesville.
When I lived in Atlanta, the Braves consistently put large crowds in the stadium, despite a bad location, and horrendous traffic. And people would drive there from all over Georgia, and on the weekends, places like Tennessee as well.
Sports fans are dedicated, and often a little nuts (fanatics, you might say.) Put a good product on the field, in a decent stadium, located somewhere that’s not totally horrible – and the fans will come. Would Hillsborough be better than Pinellas? Probably, but I don’t think the change would be dramatic if you somehow picked the Trop up and dropped in on top of Legends Field.
To a point I agree with you
Baseball is a different animal though. Twice as many home games, sometimes as many as 9 night nights in a row. For 10 games a year its not bad. If you want to go to 60-81 the commute can become taxing. Its not as big a deal to drive to Tampa 2 times a week for a hockey, rarely on consecutive nights. Football is obviously even more extreme.
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Business dollars
I think the biggest attraction of Tampa (over anywhere in Pinellas) is the number of businesses who are now in the pool to be potential season ticket holders. If you are a corporation or firm located in Tampa, it is tough to have full season tickets to games, because the stadium is at least 45 minutes at rush hour. If the stadium is 15 minutes, could be a different story.
Very difficult to measure this, but the demographics clearly favor a Hillsborough site.
This is an often overlooked point
One I hesitate to bring up without concrete numbers on a) the number of firms located in Tampa/Hillsborough vs. St. Pete/Pinellas or b) knowledge of the MLB breakdown of season tickets by businesses compared to individuals.
Surely, for pro sports teams, the vast majority of full-season packages are bought by corporations?
Your source for replacement level commentary
New Ford Quote
If anyone had doubts, this is from sptimes.com today.
“Mr. Foster wants to renegotiate the agreement for a new baseball stadium, which the taxpayers really do not want and cannot afford,” Ford said. “We have to make sure we clarify our message to make sure the folks understand that I know we cannot afford a new stadium.”
= If Ford wins, the Rays are gone. While I disagree with Foster rebuilding a new stadium at the Trop site, at least he realizes we need to do something!
Bobby Fenton
For those who want to see a stadium in Tampa, get your Kathleen Ford yard signs now. She is an idiot, and she’s not going to win, but that would be a godsend to the City of Tampa is she somehow did. Then she’d do all the work for us.
I disagree
Ford would be the least flexible in allowing this team to move across the Bay. She will to do everything in her power to make sure they are in the Trop until 2027. If they want to leave even to Tampa she will sue
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This
Payroll would be drastically stripped down
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by FreeZorilla on Aug 28, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Staying at the Trop until 2027 is completely unrealistic though
Anyone with common sense knows that isn’t going to happen. And it’s my understanding that there are ways, legal ways, for the Rays to break the leae if they pay. I may need to be corrected on that, but that’s my understanding.
If St. Pete wants to keep the Rays, they need to figure out a way to build at the foot of the Howard Frankland. Otherwise they are moving out of St. Pete, either to Tampa or out of town altogether.
St. Pete can’t have it both ways though. They are simply not going to see the end of that lease at the Trop, not even close. Anyone with an iota of common sense knows this.
by Bobby Fenton on Sep 3, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you think Ford would allow the Rays to buyout and move to Tampa?
Or worse yet do you think the Rays would do that and move to Tampa? If they had to buyout do you think they’d mvoe to a different market altogether?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
Great reading Elvis Lives. The stadium topic is very big to me and appreciate all the info I can get.
Here is why I think the Rays will move to Tampa
http://z8.invisionfree.com/The_Rays_Republic/index.php?showtopic=2151
Tampa? Buyout?
Matthan, in terms of a buyout, I think Ford would be the least likely to permit the Rays to buyout the Operating Covenant. If the Rays determined they needed to move from St. Petersburg, and Ford was the Mayor, I think you’d see a protracted legal fight that would probably linger in the court system for several years. Clearly, this would delay any thought of construction which would mean that we aren’t talking about a new stadium until sometime around 2018. As it is right now, the earliest a stadium could be done would probably be 2015 so I have included 3+ years for a legal battle. Lawsuits trying to force a team to stay in a city = not good. There is also the whole question of determining damages under the agreement…
The demographics clearly weigh in Tampa’s favor, but the political climate is not nearly as friendly to a baseball team as it is in St. Pete. Many St. Pete politicians, rightfully so, feel as though they are somewhat responsible for getting the Rays here and feel civic pride towards the team. Stu and the Rays understand there is a price to that kind of affection and that it is not developed over night. Unless a political consensus develops in Tampa to get the team over there (don’t see that happening in this economy) then the best option, politically, for the Rays may be keeping the team in St. Pete. Certainly in the St. Pete/Tampa area where they have spent several years cultivating a following that seems to be growing at a rapid pace.
All this brings back memories
Here is what I remember about the original fight to get MLB in St. Pete.Sometimes things from the past can be used in decisions for the future.We have a new form of government in place since the dome was built.Put in place because the dome was built without a voter referendum.It is now strong mayor ,not city manager form of government.City council must still approve funding ,but the negotiating will be done by the mayor.
When we were denied by MLB having the contractually obligated giants baseball team move to St. Pete.We sued MLB and were awarded an expansion franchise to drop the suit.IMO we will sue to keep the Rays from relocating,no matter who the mayor is.
The tourist tax helped fund the stadium.The hotel owners on the beaches were told that a lot of tourists would come watch the games and stay overnight on the beaches.Some hotel owners now think that tax money would have been better spent on advertising.
Will season tickets and tourist tickets be more in Tampa or ST.Pete.Will the bed tax be approved by Pinellas or Hillsbourgh county.

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