The Tampa Bay Rays Rotation, Pitch Counts & Rick Peterson

by Tommy Rancel on Aug 26, 2009 12:00 PM EDT Comment 140 comments

Agree or disagree with the logic behind it, but by now we've been programmed to start paying attention to a pitchers count at 100 pitches. 100 pitches isn't the absolute rule, and guys like Matt Garza and Roy Halladay amongst others are equipped to go past 100. However, on most nights a manager would be happy to have his starter reach the century mark and get him six or seven innings.

For the Rays this has been true on many nights. While each game is different, the Rays starters as a group have averaged 99 pitches per start. However, pitching guru Rick Peterson suggests that 100 isn't the magical number we should be looking at. In fact, Peterson says it's lower.

"The data tells us that once a pitcher reaches 90 pitches, the performance rate is drastically impacted. In fact, the batting average against (BAA) almost doubles. The data is there to support this." "Sure, elite guys like Roy Halladay and CC Sabathia do not have such a variance. But, by and large, the majority of pitchers do."--Fullcountpitch.com

Of course after reading such a statement my interest was piqued. Here is a look at the six starters used by the Rays broken down by pitch count...

Shields	PA	BAA	OBP	SLG	BABIP	K/BB
1-25	176	0.335	0.358	0.471	0.392	5.33
26-50	185	0.256	0.286	0.369	0.295	3.63
51-75	177	0.202	0.237	0.321	0.222	3.75
76-100	167	0.277	0.352	0.486	0.298	1.69
100+	27	0.391	0.481	0.913	0.4	1.25

Kazmir	PA	BAA	OBP	SLG	BABIP	K/BB
1-25	102	0.28	0.422	0.463	0.322	0.95
26-50	129	0.277	0.328	0.479	0.287	2.38
51-75	127	0.265	0.323	0.372	0.312	2
76-100	104	0.283	0.356	0.511	0.31	2.25
100+	17	0.333	0.412	0.467	0.417	1.5

Garza	PA	BAA	OBP	SLG	BABIP	K/BB
1-25	140	0.231	0.279	0.354	0.292	5.43
26-50	165	0.259	0.329	0.422	0.297	2.46
51-75	161	0.21	0.304	0.37	0.223	1.78
76-100	151	0.25	0.331	0.402	0.284	1.65
100+	51	0.163	0.275	0.302	0.179	2.33

Niemann	PA	BAA	OBP	SLG	BABIP	K/BB
1-25	147	0.254	0.327	0.446	0.264	1.91
26-50	163	0.26	0.319	0.333	0.311	2.42
51-75	140	0.246	0.321	0.397	0.269	1.23
76-100	119	0.276	0.333	0.381	0.317	2.2
100+	20	0.316	0.35	0.632	0.25	1

Price	PA	BAA	OBP	SLG	BABIP	K/BB
1-25	86	0.324	0.419	0.581	0.339	1.18
26-50	95	0.193	0.284	0.349	0.23	2.1
51-75	96	0.284	0.344	0.477	0.328	2.5
76-100	84	0.284	0.361	0.425	0.321	1.5
100+	18	0.125	0.222	0.188	0.2	3

Sonnanstine	PA	BAA	OBP	SLG	BABIP	K/BB
1-25	94	0.326	0.362	0.551	0.338	2.6
26-50	97	0.315	0.371	0.506	0.333	1.38
51-75	102	0.255	0.314	0.521	0.254	2.43
76-100	66	0.333	0.364	0.476	0.377	4.5
100+	3	0.333	0.333	0.333	0.333	0

Shields follows the Peterson model more than any other Rays starter. After holding opponents to a .558 OPS during pitches 51-75, that jumps 280 points to .838 after pitch 75. This surprised me as Shields usually works deep into the game, and at least my perception was he got better in the latter stages of the game. In fact it's quite the opposite especially after Shields reaches 100 pitches. His BABIP jumps to over .400 and opponents slug .913 against him. Very small sample size, but it seems Shields gets tired very quickly once at the century mark. As for Scott Kazmir, he starts off slowly before locking in during pitches 51-75. After pitch 75, his OPS against jumps up nearly .200 points back in to the mid .800s from 76-100.

For Matt Garza, the split is less than Shields or Kazmir, but there is a nearly 60 point OPS difference as Garza nears 100. As mentioned above Garza is a different animal. He has been his strongest at 100+ pitches, so it should come as no surprise that he leads the Rays in 100-119 pitch performances with 18 on the season.

When it comes to Jeff Niemann and David Price there doesn't seem to be a noticable difference on the march to 100. Both pitchers, especially Price, seem to struggle early on before settling down and going to work. In a SSS Price seems to channel Garza once he goes over 100 pitches, while Niemann has been lit up like Shields in his small sample size. The final member of the group is Andy Sonnanstine. As much as I hate to say it, Sonny got hit around regardless of pitch count. In no group was his opponent's OPS lower than .835 and that is just not good.

It's no shock that there is not a magic number across the board. Each pitcher is built different and throws different stuff. While there is no specific number, each pitcher will always have some sort of pitch count. We may not like it on some nights, but pitchers are conditioned this way and it's not going to just change.

"Think about it as a runner. Let's say he runs three or four miles a day which would average about 27 miles a week. He's conditioned to that routine. Then, the runner decides to do away with consistent training and will run however long he feels like it - like Forrest Gump. So, one day he runs seven miles, the next 8, and the next 4 and so on. So, one week he runs about 40 miles and then the next he runs 50, followed by 60 miles. What happens to his legs? He burns out and gets hurt."---Fullcountpitch.com

After all, owners are always going to look after their investments, and paying big money to injured pitchers is not a good business practice, right Rick?

Baseball spent $1.2 billion dollars on pitchers' salaries in 2008. $330 million dollars of that money was spent on injured pitchers. We have a problem here."--fullcountpitch.com

For more on Rick Peterson's thoughts click one of the fullcountpitch.com links. H/T to Baseball-Reference.com for the splits.

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Comments

Its interesting too

b.c there is a bias that if a pitcher works deep into a pitch count they must have had at least decent stuff if not better. Even still the numbers drop off. The lower pitch #’s include all the dreadful starts.

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by FreeZorilla on Aug 26, 2009 12:04 PM EDT reply actions

Why did you choose to use those pitch count distributions?

Petersen said the drop-off was at 90, why not use that and go 10 or 30 pitch intervals.

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 26, 2009 12:04 PM EDT reply actions

I would've done it in 10's, but baseball-reference doesn't split it that way.

If anybody knows of any site that does let me know.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Aug 26, 2009 12:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

That is what I figured, I don't know any site that does.

If you had a big enough sample size, you may be able to do it on a pitch by pitch basis.

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 26, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions

So, atleast this backs up Maddon's decision to pull Shields at 90 pitches whenever he starts struggling.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 12:08 PM EDT reply actions

sort of.

we don’t really know where to drop of is based on the intervals used. Obviously there is one a big drop off at 100, but maybe something before that though we don’t know the actual PC where that trend starts.

by RaysTheRoof on Aug 26, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions

considering we have 19479865982659 relief pitchers

I see no problem pulling starters early

by Dbullsfan on Aug 26, 2009 12:17 PM EDT reply actions

i c no problem pulling starters early

by Dbullsfan on Aug 26, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions

and at least my perception was he got better in the latter stages of the game.

I always felt like they left him out there to long, and he’d give up a stupid homer and implode.

by rglass44 on Aug 26, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions

It seems that Maddon has done that a few times this year

Leave a starter in at or around 100 and then take them out after a walk or a hit and put the RP in a tougher situation.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Aug 26, 2009 12:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Yup.

It’s frustrating to me.

by rglass44 on Aug 26, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions

This

Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz

by SRQman on Aug 26, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Maddon's bullpen usage this year.. iffy.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions

that is a nice way to put it.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 26, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Since we all know Duemig reads this site

I wonder if he’s got the balls to talk about this today. This justifies yanking a pitcher as much as anything I have seen. Even though the Rays have been leaving them in lately. There so no need to leave to leave them in when there is a perfectly capable/rested pen ready to go. He also wants to preach about the Rangers philosophy, but I didn’t hear any mention of the Rangers pitcher throwing a gem against us getting yanked at 95 pitches last week.

Do you have the balls big dog?

by RivalsTees on Aug 26, 2009 12:34 PM EDT via mobile reply actions

The Rangers philosophy thing is the most overrated story of the year.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree 100%

But to quote the dog: “The Rangers pitching has greatly improved this year. Why? Because they took out pitch counts.”

by RivalsTees on Aug 26, 2009 12:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

The defense and generally upgraded talent in pitchers doesn't have anything to do with it, of course.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Why would he consider that?

The Rangers improving their D doesn’t help make his point in trashing Maddon.

by RivalsTees on Aug 26, 2009 1:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Fun fact.

As of Sunday, the Rays starters averaged 98 pitches per start.

The Rangers starters? 98 pitches per start.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions

I wonder how many instances of a starter going over 110+ pitches per team?

by RivalsTees on Aug 26, 2009 1:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

B-Ref doesn't list 110+, but does list 120+

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TBR/2009-pitching.shtml#players_starter_pitching

Rays 2

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TEX/2009-pitching.shtml#players_starter_pitching

Rangers4

Interesting note: Rays have more 100-119 outings than the Rangers.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Also before last night's game

Rays had 65 games in which SP went 100-119 pitches, the Rangers had 58.

I’m pretty sure Ryan’s comments were meant toward the lower levels of the org because you cannot condition an established major league pitcher to just throw 125 every time out during a season.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Aug 26, 2009 1:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

And naturally they go and turn Feliz into a reliever.

Because nothing helps flamethrowing young arms learn the nuances of starting pitching like relieving.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Nolan was a RP remember

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Aug 26, 2009 1:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Pedro was!

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Lots of guys were, I never get your animosity against it

I do get the argument that it is a waste of free talent time, but 2 months in a pen gives a guy a chance to see Major Leaguers, throw just his best pitches, learn the craft, and get himself ready mentally and physically to be a starter out of ST.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Because the problem with, say Price, is that his best pitches were fine.

It’s the third pitch that needed work, and in the pen he gets zero conditioning with it.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions

So him on 2 pitches isn't an upgrade over your 7th (or in our case 8th) reliever?

Would Davis be a relative upgrade over someone in the pen? What about Hellboy?

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Even if they are, what's the gain?

A run or two over six weeks?

You have to think about their development as a starter too.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions

A run or two that could equal a win or two, which is huge at this point in the race.

Obviously in terms of WAR they won’t have made that significant of an impact, but in the actual mechanics of winning a game, Davis would be an upgrade over any number of our relief pitchers.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't think he's that big of an upgrade at this point over Howell, Balfour, Wheeler, and maybe Springer.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions

I think he'd be at least as effective as Wheeler and Springer, but that's a guess.

Perez, on the other hand, is instantly the Rangers second or third best reliever? That has major implications for a team trying to make it to the playoffs, particularly one with a solid, but hardly dominating starting staff.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions

Perez is 18 years old.

You’re thinking of Feliz.

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Aug 26, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Right.

I get them confused.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions

I would put him over Springer and equal to Balfour/ Wheeler

Howell is better, but that means he’s better than Cormier, Choate/Shouse, and certainly should be called up before Bennett/Nellie.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Then just call up Sonnanstine.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions

What's the point?

Davis hasn’t seen ML hitting, Sonny has. Part of this is to let him see ML hitting in a more controlled environment.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions

You assume it negatively effects the pitcher in the long run.

That is the jist of the issue. I disagree. I think it may aid them. No one can be sure.

by rglass44 on Aug 26, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Unless someone wants to get off their ass and look at MLB starters after starting their careers as relievers.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions

unpossible

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah I understood as the lower levels as well.

But once again, that doesn’t help prove his point. And his listeners/callers are to old to use the internet to read for themselves.

by RivalsTees on Aug 26, 2009 1:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

"Do you have the balls big dog?"

No. No he doesn’t.

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Aug 26, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions

He certainly did...

Amazing what he said

Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!

by joedobr on Aug 27, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions

MGL makes a good point today

The more a lineup sees a starter the bigger advantage it is for the other team usually. If a pitcher is tiring and the lineup is flipping for the 3rd or 4th time, it’s probably best to go to a RP.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Aug 26, 2009 12:42 PM EDT via mobile reply actions

I thought it was a prerequisite for working here to have read The Book.

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Aug 26, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Ask Ben Zobrist about the book.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Aug 26, 2009 12:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

The Good Book is all he needs

besides the occasional shot from Mkanx

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions

If you like baseball and like thinking about baseball you should definitely read The Book.

Although I guess it could take away some entertainment factor for folks (aka there’s less intrigue in pitcher v. batter match-up history, or hot streaks, etc.)

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions

The beauty is that baseball is not played in a vacuum during a game

Over the course of a season things regress, but in that one game random variation is in control. That is what makes it fun.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions

I mean

Tommy’s point is covered in one of the chapters therein. I was being a smartass.

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Aug 26, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions

But nobody in the book wore a uniform.

So they don’t really know anything. PETERSON WAS IN THE GAME.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Aug 26, 2009 1:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

I converted Peterson into an Excel macro in fifteen minutes.

He’s my binary bitch, now.

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Aug 26, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions

I can understand

the idea of watching a pitch count for the starters if they are rookies or they are coming off an injury. I also can get wit the notion of using PC as a guide for pitchers production levels. But I can never figure out why I hear coaches say they can’t use a certain reliever because they threw 2 or 3 days in a row or because they threw 2 to 3 innings the day before. A short relief guy should be available everyday. Throwing 20 -30 pitches everyday is not going to break their arms. They throw more in long toss and in bullpen sessions than during games.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 1:16 PM EDT reply actions

The Book found that managers don't give relievers as much workload as they could.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions

I think what Orel Hershiser has to say is pretty interesting

Look at the 2000 AL ROY voting and try not to laugh.

by RaysnNoles on Aug 26, 2009 2:08 PM EDT reply actions

I read this a couple weeks ago and it came across as a bunch of waffling instead of showing each side.

Then again I hate Tim Kurkjian and his monkey face.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions

I just wanted to point out what Orel said

Look at the 2000 AL ROY voting and try not to laugh.

by RaysnNoles on Aug 26, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions

He's a smart guy and one of the few opinions I'll listen to at WWL

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Everyone enjoys Orel

Look at the 2000 AL ROY voting and try not to laugh.

by RaysnNoles on Aug 26, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I really liked the part about him mentioning that a function of higher pitch counts is that there is no easy outs nowadays

As he said being able to throw a bp sinker to get a ground out is nearly impossible today.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Yep.

Good to see him say there’s a big difference in pitching in 1968 and 2009.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Aug 26, 2009 2:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

I respect Orel way more than that redneck Nolan.

Even though I can’t read the article now.

by RivalsTees on Aug 26, 2009 2:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Orel was good

but hitters feared Nolan… ask robin V.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions

I thought Nolan is over rated.

He threw no hitters cause he wouldn’t throw strikes. I bet he wouldn’t be nearly as good if he pitched now.

by RivalsTees on Aug 26, 2009 2:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

I don't think him not throwing strikes has a very strong correlation with 7 no-hitters

Look at the 2000 AL ROY voting and try not to laugh.

by RaysnNoles on Aug 26, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Look at his career walks

by RivalsTees on Aug 26, 2009 2:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

2795 walks

compared to 5714 K’s in 5386 innings. He only gave up 1911 earned runs in 27 years.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions

That is not a very good argument

A 2:1 strikeout to walk ratio is not something to brag about

I am not even going to start debating why ER is a terrible measure of a pitcher.

Look at the 2000 AL ROY voting and try not to laugh.

by RaysnNoles on Aug 26, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions

2.97 career FIP.

Nolan Ryan was a badass, even though he waked a lot of guys.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions

3.69 FIP for Orel.

tRA would probably be better, but that’s a bitch to calculate for career.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions

my point was

he did have quite a few walks but the fact that he K’s so many he limited the damage.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not saying he sucked

I have just heard him being called the best ever. I think that is over rating him. It would be really interesting to see what he could do today w/o being able to throw inside.

HELL IF HE PLAYED FOR MADDON, HE WOULD BE AT 100 PITCHES AFTER 6 AND PULLED.

by RivalsTees on Aug 26, 2009 3:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Nolan Ryan would still be able to throw inside because he had 100mph heat.

Most guys don’t have that kind of power, nor do they have that kind of mentality.

Would his numbers take a hit by playing in a better era? Sure, but so would Sandy Koufax. So would Babe Ruth. That doesn’t change the fact of what they did in their era.

Sandy Koufax’s FIP btw? 2.69. 1.85 for the season in 1963. That’s absurd.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Who called him the best every?

Some jackass at the bar 12 beers deep

I am pretty sure no one would call him the best ever, not ever geniuses like Joe Morgan, Steve Phillips or John Kruk.

Look at the 2000 AL ROY voting and try not to laugh.

by RaysnNoles on Aug 26, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Most recently? I think KK said it last week.

I don’t mind Morgan that much. Kruk and Phillips: HAHAHAHAHA

by RivalsTees on Aug 26, 2009 3:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Joe Morgan is terrible...

…he does zero research for games, is unfamiliar with rosters of any team outside of NY, Boston, LA and is extremly bias towards the Black athlete.

Look at the 2000 AL ROY voting and try not to laugh.

by RaysnNoles on Aug 26, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree with you now.

But I watched him growing up, and found him informative when I was young. But now, eh.

by RivalsTees on Aug 26, 2009 3:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

It is impossible to declare on the best ever

but in my lifetime, Nolan is top 10. For me top 5 because I was a fan of his.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Jesus Christ

Look at the 2000 AL ROY voting and try not to laugh.

by RaysnNoles on Aug 26, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Nolan was still clocking 100mph

at 100 pitches. The dude as a horse. plus… he took Bayer for his muscle aches… so he officially kicked ass.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions

I like how your quote comes from a guy who never had to work an honest day in his life.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions

That may be

but he did work harder than our current Piece of shit congress.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Meh, you're unsatisfied with congress and want them to be more like Thomas Jefferson, then start a petition to make them better paid.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions

you're joking right?

TJ only helped pen the one of our founding docs and did so without much pay if any at all. Compared to todays congress who has helped this country in what way? These people are already overpaid. This is the worst congress in history.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I didn't compare TJ to the current congress.

174,000 is a paltry salary for someone in a position of importance who likely has a family and a house to support, in addition to having to find housing in DC. It also makes it much easier for corruption to settle in.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions

174,000 is what they ( congress ) decided on

they vote on their on own salaries.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions

And then half of them pocket extra cash from real estate deals and other shady endevours.

It’s a political move because they fear the repercussions that would come from a public that doesn’t understand that you have to pay a little extra to get the best and the brightest, just like any business would.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions

very true they are all crooked.

Best and brightest? You can’t be talking about this congress becuase if so… I deserve a refund.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions

In terms of recruiting and acquiring talent, the federal government sucks.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions

The fedreal government suck at alot of things

such as running programs, budgeting, not blowing money, etc…

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions

And not really...

Not a big fan of TJ, but I thought this quote was accurate.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Relevant or not, Thomas Jefferson didn't know a thing about being one of the people.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Also may be true

but the same can be said for everyone in our current congress. The point is, TJ actually did something usefull for America. Can’t say the same thing for anyone in our current congress.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions

This entire subthread...

was unexpected, incredible, and quite lovely. I’d love to hear the two of you opine on federalism.

by rglass44 on Aug 26, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Hold on, let me whip out my dog-eared copy of the Federalist Papers and we can talk about the inability of this current confederation's ability to preserve a union.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions

There we go.

Maybe you and Mongo can debate the relative importance of unions through time and in today’s economic climate.

by rglass44 on Aug 26, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Would comparing unions to Twilight be a good way of educating young people?

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Federalism is

Super!

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Who needs Alexander Hamilton and John Jay when you have MongoLongo?

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Very true

Those guys were douchebags anyway

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions

MongoLongo and Suttree

Thanks for making everyone want to kill themselves.

Regards,
DRB Users (minus rglass44)

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Aug 26, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions

THIS IS AMERICA.

NO ONE MADE YOU READ THIS SUB THREAD.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Cunilingus Rice has a gun to my head making me read it

actually.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions

With 7 no hitters

throwing strikes was a given. Ofcourse bringing it at 100mph inside did’t hurt his cause. Nolan was not overrated. One of the better pitchers I have ever seen. He controlled the plate, he pitched, he didn’t just throw. He had in my mind, picture perfect mechanics.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions

zomg why do you like UNC basketball?

Are you a communist?

by rglass44 on Aug 26, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions

HUH?

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Your profile says your favorite college baskeball team is UNC.

That’s terrible and inexcusable.

by rglass44 on Aug 26, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Oh, well yeah but now that I just saw that urs is WF

than all makes sense. So yes… I am communist.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions

ok good

At least you admit it.

by rglass44 on Aug 26, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Not that it's important at all

But it really annoyed me that their graphs go backwards in time. Why??

I agree though, Orel’s comments are interesting, and probably very true.

by ChiBurbRaysFan on Aug 26, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions

It's too bad most of you never got to see real pitchers work

Guys like Lolich, Palmer, Seaver, Perry

Even bik K guys like Sam McDowell would hurl CG and fan 10-12 regularly

by sternfan1 on Aug 26, 2009 2:14 PM EDT reply actions

What was it like to see Cy Young's debut?

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions

I just missed him

by sternfan1 on Aug 26, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions

I would have like to have seen Rogers Hornsby play, I know he pre-dates you, but he's one guy that put

up ridiculous numbers compared to his peers.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions

That's what makes Ruth so great

When he hit 60 HRs in ’27, he had more HR than many other teams did

by sternfan1 on Aug 26, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions

What about Mickey, you ever get to see him play?

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions

Yep--saw a DH v Yankees at old CLE Stadium

by sternfan1 on Aug 26, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions

Pedro and Maddux aren't real pitchers?

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Roy Halladay clearly isn't either.

by Suttree on Aug 26, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Not on Monday night he wasn't

/Rays Lineup’d

by ChiBurbRaysFan on Aug 26, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Maddux--thank you 90's strike zone and notice he never wanted a piece of the AL

even when the Yankees were willing to pay more than anyone else

by sternfan1 on Aug 26, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions

Nothing wrong with being smart.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions

I have always

thought the current strike zone is too small. Ofcourse watching the LLWS strike zone, it makes the pros look dime size.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions

LOL

That is hilarious. You realize the strike-zone today is wayyy smaller than when your “real pitchers” pitched. What about the mound height of your real pitchers? You are absurd.

by rglass44 on Aug 26, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions

LOL

“real pitchers”… ? haha Are you still pissy about our disagreement a while back? silly fella.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions

I have no idea what you are referring to.

I was referring to sternfan’s comment. I do not remember our “disagreement.”

by rglass44 on Aug 26, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions

my apologies

wrong dude.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson

by MongoLongo on Aug 26, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions

RJ--you posted a thread on Garza's performance

v the Jays a couple Friday’s ago(9 Ks and 0 BB CG)

It got me thinking how commonplace those games were back in the 60s and 70s (sans the BB)

I bet McDowell hag 5-10 a year in the early 60s

by sternfan1 on Aug 26, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions

51 career 9+ IP, 9+K games.

Didn’t include any walks.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 26, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Not bad

by sternfan1 on Aug 26, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Statspass.com every 15 pitches

Sorry for the formatting issues…
Shields

Pitch Count G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB IBB HBP SO GDP AVG OBP SLG
Pitch 1-15 – 100 – 31 7 0 3 10 1 0 4 0 0 19 2 .310 .337 .470
Pitch 16-30 – 114 – 39 11 2 3 12 0 0 3 0 0 20 2 .342 .359 .553
Pitch 31-45 – 114 – 30 9 0 1 9 0 1 5 0 0 17 2 .263 .292 .368
Pitch 46-60 – 102 – 22 4 1 1 13 0 1 5 0 0 23 2 .216 .250 .304
Pitch 61-75 – 102 – 20 4 0 4 6 0 0 6 0 0 17 4 .196 .241 .353
Pitch 76-90 – 102 – 26 6 0 7 17 0 0 10 1 1 16 1 .255 .327 .520
Pitch 91-105 – 67 – 21 2 2 2 4 2 0 8 0 0 14 1 .313 .387 .493
Pitch 106-120 – 8 – 4 1 0 2 3 0 0 3 0 0 2 0 .500 .636 1.375

Kazmir

Pitch Count G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB IBB HBP SO GDP AVG OBP SLG
Pitch 1-15 – 43 – 13 1 0 3 6 1 0 15 0 0 9 0 .302 .483 .535
Pitch 16-30 – 63 – 17 4 0 2 9 2 0 5 0 0 16 2 .270 .324 .429
Pitch 31-45 – 73 – 18 2 0 4 11 0 1 5 0 1 11 0 .247 .304 .438
Pitch 46-60 – 62 – 17 5 0 1 6 0 0 11 0 0 12 2 .274 .384 .403
Pitch 61-75 – 73 – 21 4 1 1 14 0 0 3 0 0 12 3 .288 .304 .411
Pitch 76-90 – 57 – 12 3 0 2 7 0 0 5 0 2 14 0 .211 .292 .368
Pitch 91-105 – 42 – 16 8 0 2 8 0 0 4 0 1 6 0 .381 .447 .714
Pitch 106-120 – 8 – 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 .375 .444 .375

Garza

Pitch Count G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB IBB HBP SO GDP AVG OBP SLG
Pitch 1-15 – 68 – 14 1 1 0 1 1 1 4 0 2 23 0 .206 .270 .250
Pitch 16-30 – 89 – 23 3 0 5 14 0 0 6 0 0 22 3 .258 .302 .461
Pitch 31-45 – 90 – 22 4 1 3 12 0 1 8 0 2 17 0 .244 .317 .411
Pitch 46-60 – 87 – 23 2 0 5 10 1 0 11 0 1 20 2 .264 .350 .460
Pitch 61-75 – 81 – 15 3 0 2 10 0 1 9 0 2 20 3 .185 .277 .296
Pitch 76-90 – 79 – 18 4 0 3 5 0 0 10 0 0 16 1 .228 .308 .392
Pitch 91-105 – 76 – 22 2 1 3 12 0 0 9 0 1 19 2 .289 .368 .461
Pitch 106-120 – 20 – 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 7 1 .000 .167 .000

Niemann

Pitch Count G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB IBB HBP SO GDP AVG OBP SLG
Pitch 1-15 – 80 – 24 8 0 2 7 3 1 6 0 3 10 3 .300 .371 .475
Pitch 16-30 – 80 – 19 4 0 3 12 3 0 6 0 1 16 0 .238 .292 .400
Pitch 31-45 – 87 – 23 2 0 2 13 7 1 8 0 1 17 4 .264 .333 .356
Pitch 46-60 – 80 – 18 4 2 2 9 4 2 10 0 0 16 1 .225 .311 .400
Pitch 61-75 – 78 – 19 6 0 0 2 3 0 6 0 1 7 2 .244 .306 .321
Pitch 76-90 – 74 – 21 1 0 3 4 0 1 6 0 0 14 3 .284 .333 .419
Pitch 91-105 – 42 – 11 1 0 1 5 0 0 4 0 0 9 2 .262 .319 .357
Pitch 106-120 – 9 – 3 0 0 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 .333 .400 .667

Price
Pitch Count G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB IBB HBP SO GDP AVG OBP SLG
Pitch 1-15 – 43 – 12 3 0 0 4 1 1 8 0 1 5 0 .279 .404 .349
Pitch 16-30 – 50 – 15 2 0 5 11 1 0 4 0 0 14 1 .300 .352 .640
Pitch 31-45 – 48 – 7 4 0 2 6 1 0 7 0 1 13 0 .146 .263 .354
Pitch 46-60 – 56 – 18 5 0 3 15 1 1 2 0 0 8 0 .321 .345 .571
Pitch 61-75 – 47 – 13 2 0 1 9 2 1 8 0 0 13 1 .277 .382 .383
Pitch 76-90 – 46 – 15 4 0 2 4 0 1 6 0 0 8 0 .326 .404 .543
Pitch 91-105 – 38 – 7 2 0 0 3 0 0 5 0 0 12 0 .184 .279 .237
Pitch 106-120 – 6 – 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 .000 .143 .000

Sonnanstine

Pitch Count G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB IBB HBP SO GDP AVG OBP SLG
Pitch 1-15 – 52 – 12 2 0 3 5 0 0 2 0 0 8 1 .231 .259 .442
Pitch 16-30 – 52 – 25 6 0 2 14 0 0 6 0 0 7 1 .481 .534 .712
Pitch 31-45 – 53 – 15 2 0 3 11 0 0 4 0 0 7 2 .283 .333 .491
Pitch 46-60 – 51 – 11 3 1 3 11 0 0 7 0 1 6 2 .216 .322 .490
Pitch 61-75 – 64 – 18 3 1 3 9 0 2 1 0 0 13 1 .281 .292 .500
Pitch 76-90 – 48 – 15 3 1 0 5 0 0 1 0 0 9 0 .313 .327 .417
Pitch 91-105 – 17 – 6 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 .353 .421 .588
Pitch 106-120 – 1 – 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.000 1.000

by PTLeRoy on Aug 26, 2009 2:44 PM EDT reply actions

Appreciate it

With all this stuff though, I think the samples are way too small to take anything out of it. Sonny faced one guy over 106 pitches and gave up a single.

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions

I can do career too

PS…this looks much better copied in Excel

Shields

Kazmir

Garza

Niemann

Price

Pitch Count G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB IBB HBP SO GDP AVG OBP SLG
Pitch 1-15 – 43 – 12 3 0 0 4 1 1 8 0 1 5 0 .279 .404 .349
Pitch 16-30 – 50 – 15 2 0 5 11 1 0 4 0 0 14 1 .300 .352 .640
Pitch 31-45 – 48 – 7 4 0 2 6 1 0 7 0 1 13 0 .146 .263 .354
Pitch 46-60 – 56 – 18 5 0 3 15 1 1 2 0 0 8 0 .321 .345 .571
Pitch 61-75 – 47 – 13 2 0 1 9 2 1 8 0 0 13 1 .277 .382 .383
Pitch 76-90 – 46 – 15 4 0 2 4 0 1 6 0 0 8 0 .326 .404 .543
Pitch 91-105 – 38 – 7 2 0 0 3 0 0 5 0 0 12 0 .184 .279 .237
Pitch 106-120 – 6 – 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 .000 .143 .000

Sonnanstine

Pitch Count G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB IBB HBP SO GDP AVG OBP SLG
Pitch 1-15 – 232 – 64 18 3 8 21 0 1 13 0 1 35 7 .276 .316 .483
Pitch 16-30 – 243 – 75 18 0 5 33 1 5 16 1 0 46 6 .309 .350 .444
Pitch 31-45 – 261 – 68 15 2 9 38 1 2 7 0 2 47 7 .261 .280 .437
Pitch 46-60 – 278 – 92 19 3 13 55 0 0 18 1 4 43 6 .331 .376 .561
Pitch 61-75 – 267 – 78 20 1 11 46 0 4 11 1 2 50 5 .292 .325 .498
Pitch 76-90 – 228 – 58 17 2 4 28 0 0 12 0 1 36 4 .254 .291 .399
Pitch 91-105 – 105 – 30 4 1 4 10 1 0 8 2 2 14 4 .286 .345 .457
Pitch 106-120 – 3 – 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 .333 .333 .333

by PTLeRoy on Aug 26, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions

whoops, copied wrong ones other than Sonny...

by PTLeRoy on Aug 26, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Can you upload to docs.google.com and then share the link?

I can't help that I make some things look easier than they really are.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 26, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Well its about pitch counts and the argument is usually

about 10-20 pitches. It’s always going to be a SSS issue

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Aug 26, 2009 3:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Are the numbers in this article just this season or over the course of their careers?

From what I can see, last year Shields did not have a problem going deep into games or having higher pitch counts, because he wasn’t giving up runs or hits in those situations on a consistent basis. This year on the other hand has been almost the opposite, where the second he steps on the mound for the 7th inning he completely loses it.

I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.

by kericr on Aug 26, 2009 3:44 PM EDT reply actions