Rays Blow Lead Late In Loss To Tigers
by Erik Hahmann on Aug 30, 2009 4:44 PM EDT
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PrintPlease do not blame this loss on Grant Balfour. Of course he's not totally without blame, but this one rests on the shoulders of Joe Maddon.
Maddon has developed a habit this season of sending his starter back out to begin an inning when he was visibly struggling through the previous inning. The tired starter normally ends up allowing the leadoff batter to reach base somehow, and is then replaced by a middle reliever. Why doesn't Maddon just have the middle reliever start the inning? I really wish I could tell you. He's seemingly done it more and more as the season has progressed, and it's getting to be almost comical.
I was talking to Tommy during the game and when the 7th inning ended he predicted Maddon would send Niemann out to start the 8th despite the signs of fatigue that Niemann displayed in the 7th. Of course, Maddon did, and Tommy said, and I quote, "Niemann will walk or give up a hit to the leadoffman. Then Balfour will come in and get an out, give up a hit, then Choate or Wheeler will come in." That was close. Niemann gave up a leadoff double and Grant Balfour was summoned from the pen. Balfour recorded two outs and with Curtis Granderson due up next was not taken out of the game for some reason. Thre Rays have not one, not two, but THREE left handed relievers in their bullpen. If you hadn't noticed, Curtis Granderson is also left handed. Here are Granderson's career numbers against RHP and LHP:
vs RHP: .295/.370/.530/.900
vs LHP: .211/.274/.355/.629
As you can see, the man is incapable of hitting lefties. It would seem like an ideal situation to use Choate, Shouse, or Howell. Instead, Jim Hickey went to the mound and when he left it was pretty clear what he had told Balfour; pitch around Granderson. And Balfour did, Granderson ended up on first base which brought the go ahead run to the plate. We know how that ended up. Yes, Balfour gave up the game winning (or losing if you're a Rays fan) home run, but he shouldn't have been in there to throw that pitch in the first place. I rarely blame a loss on a manager, but this game was in Maddon's hands, and he dropped it. If the Rays miss the playoffs I know some people are going to blame it on the trade of Scott Kazmir. When in fact it's games such as these they are going to keep the Rays home in October.
-It was nice to see Aki hit his first home run in nearly a year.
-Also, it was nice to see Evan Longoria hit his first home run in nearly 20 games.
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Wait a minute!! What if Balfour had been brought in to pitch to Polanco?
Look i agree Maddon should have matched up with Grandy but to give up a HR to Polanco is squarely on Balfour
This is not statistically inclined, but there's an obvious difference between the way Balfour pitched Granderson and Polanco as opposed to the others.
After Hickey’s visit, he was skittish. He even dropped in velocity. On the three outs he got? 95-96mph heat, touched 97. The guy’s not about deception, he’s about striking people out.
Steve Carney who works the Rays radio broadcasts
Told me Choate was warming when Balfour was in the game. This makes pitching around Granderson even more frustrating. Why have 3 lefties if you don’t use them?
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 30, 2009 4:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
If we do end up missing the playoffs (and we are right at that point now), it's on Maddon.
The biggest problem this season has been the bullpen and this is just another example of poor usage. How do you not prepare for Granderson?
Also, telling Balfour to pitch around people is fucking retarded… witnessed by the fact that he murdered the first two batters, and murdered the last batter when he started going after him. The guy has 96 heat with great movement. If he gets hit, gets hit. He’s not getting by on deception.
I've always thought Maddon was bad with Bullpen management
It’s completely obvious as the season has gone on. Starting with CLE you could tell he doesn’t make logical decision too often
by Transplanted on Aug 30, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
He deserves credit for the way he handled the bullpen last year.
He’s completely regressed this year. It’s shameful.
Maddon is simply a bad manager
What is funny is he is horrible with matchups and subs. Considering what this board is about I’m surprised more people aren’t anti maddon. Maddon is much more of a rah rah babysitting young player coach. I’d much rather have a manager that is far better with the statistics and matchups
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Aug 30, 2009 5:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Like Carney
Good guy…He cares…A fellow Navy guy like I am:)
Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!
another low-scoring road game where we get all our runs via the long ball.
if only this team were capable of stringing base hits together. lord.
Navarro's agent is insane.
http://twitter.com/kendallalmerico
Rays now 5-7 with Zaun starting, 5-2 with Navi behind the plate. I guess Joe Maddon wants October off this year.
Zaun with the Rays: .311/.340/.511
Yeah, it’s his fault. God.
Worth noting: Navarro's OPS since Zaun arrived is .570.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
Since acquiring 143 year old Geoff Zaun…Rays 5-6 with Zaun starting at catcher, 4-2 with Navi starting. Hmmmm…let’s do the math
by Erik Hahmann on Aug 30, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if "Geoff" partied all off-season?
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Kendall is doing his best Boras impersonation
Discredit by not even acknowleding who his real competition is!
Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!
That's awful...
Kendall is a nice guy(I’ve met him a few times), but that is a ridiculous assertion.
Tommy's dealt with him before and had similar sentiments.
I know he’s got loyalty to his client, but why even go down a path that you can’t begin to defend?
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree....
It’s a horrendous statement… Indefensible. Arbitration negotiations should be interesting.
Tender Navi...
And drive the price down….He deserves nothing more than 100K over last season…Rays got the hammer here, but tender him and make him compete
Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!
Yes, pay him 2 million to back-up Gregg Zaun.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
You know how it works better than I do!
He could be one of the rarer arb cases that doesn’t get a raise off his previous year’s salary. If you aren’t planning on making a trade or making a foray into FA, tender him and drive him down.
Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!
You can't drive him down.
You have to offer a % of his previous salary.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
100K
and make him like it
Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!
Why should they pay him 2mil+ to be shitty?
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Aug 30, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone else will
And that is the problem with MLB’s salary structure
Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!
Then let them. Riggans will be shitty for league minimum
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Aug 30, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Then you concede
We got nothing at catcher…Horrible proposition
Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!
I'd rather pay a guy to be shitty at league minimum than pay him 2mil to be shitty.
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Aug 30, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder what the offers have been for Navi
It makes no sense for us to retain him, might as well have gotten something
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
A Reliever
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Aug 30, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
We have Gregg Zaun and someone like Jose Lobaton or John Jaso.
Navarro isn’t 2 mil better than the last two in limited action.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Hernandez has been better than Navi this season even
Now if he could learn to hit
by Transplanted on Aug 30, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I love Kendall Almerico!!
Agent to the stars!!
Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!
Also 8 Runs in 3 games this series...
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Aug 30, 2009 4:52 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I'm sure AF had a word with Joe about not using a loogy v Grandy
after seeing those splits
I usually don't get irate about when we lose, but I hope Freidman got on and the phone and just started bitching him out.
To not use any of our lefties against Granderson is simply idiotic.
Great writeup Erik
I said before the 8th inning I wanted Wheeler or Cormier, mainly Wheeler. He has been our 8th inning guy for almost the entire season and for the last 4 months has been damn good at that job. Unless he was unavalable, which I doubt he should have been used. Not only did Niemann show signs of losing it in the 7th but look who was leading off the 8th, Clete Thomas. While that may not sound scary he was 2-2 with two solidly hit balls of off Niemann already, Maddon who seems to love match-ups despite SSS should have seen that and it should have been even more of a reason to go the pen. As far as Granderson that situation was so badly messed up it doesn’t even need to be commented on. The season moves on and with the Boston win the chances of us making the playoffs are really low now. We can all sit back, listen/follow to Hellickson tonight and maybe he struggles but if he has another great start like he has had in every single AAA start but 1, I’ll be ready to listen to more people tell me how for A, B, and C reasons he isn’t ready for the majors even though he is making AAA look easy as shit.
Bottom line--in our last 4 losses
we’ve scored 7 R—that won’t cut it This offense is not back. I thought after we took the lead we did a poor job of working the PC and getting Verlander out of the game
Look, i'm not here to argue or be berated
i made an observation that after the 5th inning they didn’t work the count
what is your fucking problem?
Your observations are disproven by stats and you're a fucktard.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Shut the fuck up.
This is our offense. Get over it. It’s great for two weeks, bad for one. This is how it works and nothing’s going to change that.
Shitty bullpen management, however, can be changed.
Dude, is it with you i have the 90 W bet?
You need to chill—an observation is not about name calling
That offense has sucked lately
Hard to argue against that. But then again we’ve held the lead late in 2 of our 3 most recent losses. I think we just have to learn to live with the ups and downs of our offense. When you have guys like Longo, Pena, Burrell….thats just what you are going to get.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
We'll probably address it with a few minor signings.
Tommy mentioned Benoit a few days ago.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
He'd just choke in the clutch
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Aug 30, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Think of the emotional cripple his wife and kid would endure.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The Rays wives would beat the Bucs wives on a Benoit suicide squeeze...
by td32 on Aug 30, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
They need to put you on in the mornings.
Can’t stand 620 and 1040 is bullshit in morning drive-time. And when they do, make these kinds of jokes.
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Aug 30, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice.
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Aug 30, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Pity Chris Benoit!!!
Put Tampa Bay back on our road uniforms!!
Gorgen has nose dived in Montgomery.
Satow is probably too low to make the jump.
Bateman makes sense though.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
We don't need new bullpen arms
The guys we have in the system are great. The problem is how we use them. We can get 5 new great guys due to Friedman, but if our manager puts them in the wrong spots then we will have major meltdowns again.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
its the truth
though there may be better options available but not much better
Over the Monster: an unofficial blog for Red Sox bandwagon "Fans"
yea we should leave Hellickson in the minors next year
first inning 3 batters, 3 strike-outs 2 swinging.
but but he isn’t ready, he is the best pitcher we have in AAA including Sonny and Davis
What's your point?
Have a six-man rotation next year? Shields/Garza/Price/Niemann/Davis/Hellickson?
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Aug 30, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
That seems like a poor usage of resources.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying he is going to get us to the playoffs
but I don’t see how giving him some ML experience will hurt us this year or in the future.
I'd rather have a rotation of Shields, Garza, Price, Niemann, Hellickson 2010 with Davis, Sonny in the pen
than any of those guys be in AAA, they are too good to be in the minors.
I'd rather just trade Garza or Niemann than waste Davis.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm fan with that too
I would just hate to see Hellickson absolutely dominating AAA while he could be in the majors. While Davis has been good and you could make the arguement he should have been up this year, he isn’t dominating like Hellickson has been.
Garza
I’ve rarely seen such a headcase. A walk or hit can set him off into a mental breakdown. Why trade Niemann though? He has been pretty consistent in his rookie year. The baseball gods usually give him run support. Does Davis look that good to you?
The old guy.
Because Niemann's home run rate is still going to come back to Earth at some point?
And he has a lower whiff rate than Sonnanstine?
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
We should trade James Shields. That's all he's done all year. Clearly, he's worthless.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
There's a logjam in SP. Short of trading Shields and having 4 Rookies/Second-year guys in the rotation?
It’s pointless to shut down Hellickson this early so he can make two starts in the big leagues. Let him pitch for Durham in the playoffs.
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Aug 30, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
He's also been saying Hellickson should be up in Sept.
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Aug 30, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
yea I don't see how 2 extra starts is going to change his future
whereas allowing him to spend a month up in the bigs facing ML hitters isn’t going to hurt anyone and may help curve his adjustment period whenever he is called up for good.
and yea mainly more concerned with 2010, seems like some ppl don’t want to see him until September 2010
I actually agree with you
Hellickson has been our most impressive young pitchers in a very long long long time. The only reason people don’t regard Hellboy that high is simply because he hasn’t gotten the pub and the high rankings. He has outperformed Price and Davis across the board. At some point you have to trust production. That doesn’t mean Hellickson is going to be better than Price or Davis….but in terms of minor league track record he has definitely deserved the promotion over anyone else.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
When was the last 38 year old the Rays have signed to be a starter?
Into the Wall : Sarcasm for the Soccer Guy
by ReasonableDoubt on Aug 30, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade someone?
Heck even trade for a manager. We need one
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Aug 30, 2009 5:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Is this online for free some place?
There used to be certain sites that would broadcast but stopped.
Hello.
is jennings hurt?
missed yesterdays game was well
He had a great fastball
but that’s all he had and he had spotty command. Then he blew out his arm.
Hello.
but you must admit, it was strange
a manager who at times uses 4 relievers to get through an inning doesn’t use a loogy, to a hitter who has such lopsided splits
I don't know. He's more of an old school manager.
As long as he doesn’t make roster decisions or overly poor game decisions I usually don’t have a problem with him.
Also: if he starts using his own “stats” for evaluation, then yeah, he’s gotta go.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm also of the belief a manager can't do much
great players make great plays
Funny Torre sucked as a manager till he got to NY—hmmm
I don't think managers have a huge impact
But I’d much rather have a guy that managers properly than a guy that screws up constantly. Why put the team in the hole when we can just upgrade?
Hell hire anyone on Draysbay, give them a computer, and we can make all the right moves. Let Dave Martinez do all the other crap. It isn’t really rocket science.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
I wouldn't want to be a manager and there's more than just in game decisions.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Like making your hair black or doing a mohawk?
But seriously thats why I said let Dave Martinez do that. In really I’m just saying have a computer make the in game decisions.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
Joyce was 10 feet shy from going oppo. Long double off the "Blue Monster".
1-0 Bulls
Hellickson (so far) – 2IP 0H 0ER 0BB 4SO
He should make the rotation next year
I don’t think it would be going out on a limb to say he is even more ready for Price. I’m not saying remove Price (esp since I don’t think AAA will help him), but more in line of how good and ready Hellickson really is. He is going to be really really good very quickly.
I see him as a #1 starter. Not an elite ace, but more like a James Shields type #1.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
Well That's more like a #2,
But I agree with you.
Everbody's Nobody
I guess it depends how you define 1, 2, 3 etc
I think there are maybe ~20 to 25 #1s. But within that there are only 5 to 10 “aces”. I don’t think Shields is an ace, but is a legitimate front of the rotation guy. I don’t restrict #1 to just guys like Lincy or Sabathia. To me it doesn’t make sense since there are only a few guys like that and a lot of teams.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
I think we're all on hellickson to the point of overrating him;.
He has a legitimate Home Run problem. He has a BABIP of .246. He’s a flyballer.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
And furthermore, 42 IP is just not a very big sample size.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Robin Roberts gave up the most HRs in MLB history
He’s in the Hall of Fame. HRs are fine, as long as they aren’t with men on base.
Hello.
Home Run Rate through the years:
0.3 (2006) – HV
0.6 (2007) – VB
0.8 (2008) – VB
1.5 (2008) MTG
0.6 (2009) MTG
One bad year, and that was because of one start (5 HRs in one game; his first at the AA level.
Everbody's Nobody
Roy Halladay in the minors:
0.8 career.
Majors: 0.8
Everbody's Nobody
What I'm saying is.....
Even the best give up homeruns.
Shit Happens.
Everbody's Nobody
Halladay's better at everything else, you can't look at it in a vacuum.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Of course.....
But even though he’s a flyball pitcher, I’m not that concerned. I’m not saying he’s a future ace, cause he fucking isn’t. I’m just trying to say his homerun problems aren’t that big.
Who knows, maybe he can learn to pitch less in the zone and gives up less homers.
Everbody's Nobody
Halladay was not a dominant minor league pitcher
In fact, he only struck out 5.9 batters per 9 IP. He’s never been a strikeout pitcher, but it’s actually increased in the majors. Matter of fact, when he first came up, he was a power fastball pitcher and then had to reinvent himself after he was sent all the way back down to A ball by the Jays.
Brandon Webb wasn’t a dominant minor league pitcher, either. In fact, there’s a number of MLB pitchers who’ve become much more dominant after reaching the majors than they were in the minors. That’s why I still have huge hopes for Price, and why minor league numbers can be misleading. It doesn’t hurt to be dominant, though.
Hello.
He has dominated at every level except for a few games early on at AA
Other than that he has been lights out. Price and Davis have had far bigger and longer hiccups. And frankly Hellicksons ‘best’ has been better than their ‘best’.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
But of course Hellickson has things to work on
He isn’t Cy Young already. If his only problem is he is a flyballer than I am more than okay with it. Especially compared to the faults of Price and Davis.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
Let's give him more than 50 IP in AAA.
He has the better track record yes.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
Sure
I’m not saying he should be up with the big club now. However I think he should be given a legit chance at winning a job next year. We shouldn’t just give a job to someone because they’ve been here or for some other random non performance based reason
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
Exactly
I love Price, but Hellickson has been much, MUCH more dominant at AAA than Price. Price was awesome in AA in his small sample, but still gave up a ton of HRs.
Hello.
I think Price will be better long term
I think over the next few years Hellickson will be better. Price has a long ways to go to hit his ceiling.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
It'll be 2-3 more years until he's got control on all his pitches
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
I like Price more than Hellickson
He’s left-handed and can touch 98 MPH. I’m just saying that Hellickson has been a dominant minor league pitcher, save one small patch in AA last year.
Hello.
They both have issues
Price has to gain more control
Hell-boy the HR ball
I'd rather a guy give up 2 solo HR's in a game and last 7-8 innings
than someone give up 6 hits walk 3 and go 5. Both guys give up runs, the second guy more and goes 2 innings less.
I'm so happy that I didn't see the end of this game
Really, i am
2009 Rays Baseball: BATTING STANCE GUY MUST DIE
Be a TRUE Seminole: http://www.seminoles.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/071509aab.html
e.g Mets last year had the best record after the 6th inning, before the 7th
(Mostly curious about how many games have been lost due to bullpen blowups this year)
by Transplanted on Aug 30, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
without reading this thread.
Joe Madden must have some Bobby Cox syndrome. because i see the symptoms. and its sad.
it was a nice season guys.
Godddddammmmm
8 innings 1 h 2 bb 12 K 16 SS
clearly he needs more time in AAA, sorry guyz I know we have a packed rotation but I find it hard we can’t find room for him somewhere on the opening day roster.
OD starting Rotation
1. Shields
2.Garza
3.Price
4.Niemann
5.Davis
If it makes you feel better, Hellboy will be up by ASB.
Everbody's Nobody
That may be cheaper but I don't think it is the best 5 man rotation
but maybe after 20 dominating starts ppl will be like oh shit maybe he is good.
assuming no one gets traded I’d rather
Shields
Garza
Niemann
Price
Hellickson
with Davis and Sonnanstine in the bullpen.
Exactly
We need to trade people. It is as simple as that. I understand trying to bleed value out of every single asset, but at some point you cost your team wins and losses. That angle has to be accounted for when talking about value. Winning a trade isn’t worth hurting your team
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
Everyone in this thread is bleeding from their cunts.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
My spirit is indomitable.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
I'm not interested in poking at your wounds.
I don’t hate Spurs. Never have. They’re in the same bracket with Everton and Wolverhampton in that I kinda sorta hope they win unless they play Arsenal.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
Its in your programming.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
Please change name to FreeNarwhal.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
His life won't have meaning unless we do...
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
Not just no...
Hell No.
BA doesn’t like HellBoy that much.
Everbody's Nobody
They'll change their tune some I'm sure
after his performance in Durham. Their headquarters isn’t far from DBAP.
Hello.
They already are. The reported on one of his first starts
and raved about his improved change and his pitchability.
Tools Whore
What about Hellboy being #1 pitching prospect in the land going into next year?
Well assuming Strasburg is just plugged into the Nats hellhole….
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
And yes I'm drinking the koolaid
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
Which guys would you trade straight up for hELLBOY?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
I mean don't get me wrong, there are a few guys that are really good and deserve tons of acolades
I think it is a lot closer than what people think. Personally I’d take Hellboy. I just LOVE his skillset. He is just built to be an elite starter (skillset wise).
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
Definitely an argument for him
Especially after this stint in the majors. I think Hellboy will be a better starter though. Hellboy is better with the k/bb and Feliz is better with the homers.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
Feliz throws 102 with a plus slider.
That’s what makes him better.
Tools Whore
A slider that's almost 20 mph slower than his fastball.
He’s incredible.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
Then why isn't that translating to something much better than Hellickson?
At some point you have to look at the quant and not just the qualitative stuff. Feliz is going to be great, but your reasoning for why he is better than Hellickson is pretty weak.
I could buy someone saying he has put up a slightly better FIP at a year younger. I could buy that. But the fact that someone throws harder than someone else is just pretty medieval. At some point you gotta look at results. You can’t just discredit Hellickson because someone qualitatively didn’t rate their pitch as good as someone elses
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
His numbers are nothing short of fantastic everywhere he's been.
His ceiling is absolutely huge. I’m looking at his numbers too.
Listen, as I’ve said, Hellickson is very good. His ceiling isn’t an ace like Hanson, Feliz, Tillman and Strasburg. He has good stuff. An above-average fastball that sits at 90-92 touching 93, solid average curve and an above-average change that flashes plus. Numbers matter, but big league hitters are really good and stuff matters too.
Tools Whore
He can probably touch 94 maybe 95 on a day he's feeling great.
BA had him at 90-92 topping out at 93 only once, so while he can, it’s probably not a regular thing for him to hit 95.
Tools Whore
Fair enough
I’d put him with Feliz and Tillman, but under Hanson and Strasburg. Either way we should find out about all of these guys soon enough.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
I get the poking fun of me because of how highly I regard Hellickson
but I don’t get why a guy who has tools + is dominating through performance isn’t giving the same kind of respect as a guy like Deezy who has tools but it isn’t like he is putting up Heyward like numbers? I like him but I feel like he is regarded as the second coming on here and I haven’t seen the same kind of on field performance from him that backs him being our #1 guy.
I think Narwhal's gotten a lot more attention around here recently.
What would you like to be done? Change the website to NarwhalBay.com?
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
Because position players are worth more than pitchers.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Aug 30, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
tools/projection/production
body/skillset.
minor leaguers are about projectability. not about who has the best numbers
Hellickson's tools aren't elite.
They’re merely above-average. He’s good, really good.
Tools Whore
People like Jennings more for a few reasons IMHO:
The Rays need more position guys than pitching
And the comps to CC
And that Hellboy hasn’t been as highly ‘rated’
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
And because he's a positional player, which is less risky, and more important.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 30, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions
And where was this thought process with Price?
I know position players are more important, but the Price hype was off the charts here and everywhere else. So I don’t really buy that as a reason when everyone was slurping Price just a few months ago. If you are going to use that as your ranking and hype rule then be consistent.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
he's an .840 Career OPS guy in the minors
his defense and speed are there but I’m not sold on him having an above average bat
Oh my.
.840 is average?
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
He's elite because of his combination of tools.
Great speed, excellent defense, good plate discipline, above average hitting tools.
Hello.
yet Hellickson isn't elite for having
great command in the zone, Great control, low-mid 90’s fastball, gets swings and misses, goes deep into games. His 1 negative is that he gives up HR’s, although most are solo shots. Like Jennings’ would be he doesn’t have power.
I'm on the Hellickson bandwagon
I think he’s going to be absolutely fantastic, but Jennings is no slouch and he plays everyday.
Hello.
What would you like for it to be?
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
He's a CFer with elite tools. He doesn't have to have a huge OPS.
His plate discipline is absolutely fantastic, he plays defense exceptionally well, this makes him an absolutely fantastic prospect. One of the best in all of baseball.
Tools Whore
but Hellickson gets ripped for giving up HR's
if you want to nit pick one guy you have to do it to the other. Neither is perfect, both are very good. If you want to say I like Jennings because he is a position player as opposed to a Pitcher thats fine.
But at some point you have to trust results
Perhaps people are underrating his tools? How can he consistently get better results than pitchers with superior tools? What is the difference?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
It's the minors, it happens.
Sonnanstine’s numbers in the minors were absolutely fantastic. If you were looking only at his numbers in the minors, you’d expect him to be an ace.
Tools Whore
if you watch him pitch, even just once you can visually see the difference between Hellickson and Sonny
much more explosive fastball and his breaking balls actually have sharp bite.
Hellickson is a much more dominant strikeout pitcher than Sonny
but yes, Andy was great in the minors.
Hello.
Wasn't comparing them at all.
Just saying numbers in the minors don’t directly correlate to success in the majors.
Tools Whore
Elite numbers, at a high level, at a very young age
Probably correlates very strongly to success in the majors
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
while not as good
his numbers have been similar to Tommy Hanson’s throughout the minors (less k/9, although JH’s h/9 is blowing up in Durham)
Again, not saying he's not a good prospect.
He absolutely is. But he isn’t an elite prospect. He’s not in the same category as guys like Feliz, obviously Strasburg is in a class of his own.
Tools Whore
out of curiousity if BA has him in say their top 10 next year
does your opinion on him change? I’m not saying they will but at some point I’ll take performance on the field (not just ERA, etc… but SS%, control, ability to go deep into games effectively) over prospect ranking, especially 6 months after the list come out.
Throughout the minors
Hellickson has gone deeper in games (around 2/3 to 1 inning longer on avg) than Feliz. Has a superior K/BB.
Feliz has a slightly lower FIP and a lower HR/9
It’s a tossup.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
I'm A OK with someone taking Feliz, but this is the point. Hellickson is just way past Davis
It shouldn’t even be close
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
like I said above
I’ll take the guy who goes 7 innings, may give up a HR or 2 but less hits, bb over the guy who will go 5 innings give up less HR but more bb and h.
a couple singles and a double that leads to a run and a solo HR that ends up in a run both end up in runs being scored against you.
No, he's still the same pitcher.
He won’t be in their Top-10 though.
Tools Whore
Feliz has been amazing so far in the majors
but we’ll see how he is as a starter rather than coming out of the bullpen. His AAA numbers were far from amazing and he had some real control issues.
He’s got amazing stuff, though.
Hello.
not knocking you because it has been what the "experts" have said coming into this year
but from seeing him pitch once and looking at his SS% I would guess his tools are pretty close to elite if not elite
September news
Maddon said the Rays are finalizing their plans for September callups, with the possibility of up to six additional players after Iwamura and Andy Sonnanstine, who will start Tuesday. He didn’t want to name names, but the group will include OF Fernando Perez, a third catcher (either Shawn Riggans or Michel Hernandez), another INF (likely Reid Brignac), and RHP Wade Davis, along with at least one reliever from the group of Joe Nelson, Dale Thayer and Jeff Bennett. Other possibilities include OF Matt Joyce.
Pretty shocked that Joyce isn’t a lock
1. James Shields 2. Wade Davis 3. Matt Garza 4. David Price 5. Jeff Niemann
he's been a disappointment IMHO
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
Bored of the minors?
He should get some chances in September
1. James Shields 2. Wade Davis 3. Matt Garza 4. David Price 5. Jeff Niemann
i agree since he has a shot to make the opening day roster
Over the Monster: an unofficial blog for Red Sox bandwagon "Fans"
why would Hernandez even be a possibility, he isn't on the 40 man right?
he isn’t going to play much either and Lobaton, Riggans, and Jaso are all on the 40 man already
Yeah, I think it will be Riggans, doubt they add Michel back to the 40 man
1. James Shields 2. Wade Davis 3. Matt Garza 4. David Price 5. Jeff Niemann
I'd rather see Lobaton
there isn’t going to be much of a difference between any of them so I’d rather let the Durham guys finish out the playoff’s. It isn’t like Montgomery is going anywhere.
but Durham has Riggans, Hernendez, Jaso and I think there is one other
They can afford to lose a C
1. James Shields 2. Wade Davis 3. Matt Garza 4. David Price 5. Jeff Niemann
Too lazy to check this thread
but Hellickson’s line today
8 IP 1 HA 0 ER 2 BB 12 K
no idea how many swinging strikes he got
1. James Shields 2. Wade Davis 3. Matt Garza 4. David Price 5. Jeff Niemann
5-1 in AAA already
seems like he just got there
STUD
1. James Shields 2. Wade Davis 3. Matt Garza 4. David Price 5. Jeff Niemann
thank god for the mlb.com message boards: it's a great place to get top-notch insight.....idiots
Personally I am pulling for the Yankees. They have an amazing team this year.
Like I said before, management has thrown out the towel. Barring miracle, this season is over………..Rays management=IDIOTS! Go jump off a bridge Friedman!!!!!
Over the Monster: an unofficial blog for Red Sox bandwagon "Fans"
only time ill consider it is if they meet in the ALCS
but odds are if that happens, I just wont watch
1. James Shields 2. Wade Davis 3. Matt Garza 4. David Price 5. Jeff Niemann
yea its like that mudshark69 guy the other day
who was a “yankees and rays fan”
Over the Monster: an unofficial blog for Red Sox bandwagon "Fans"
Freidman isn't the problem nor an idiot
Idiot comments like that are the reason the Rays get no respect. Maddon on the other hand..well..don’t know anymore after this season full of confusing contradictory moves. Friedman is the best guy for the Rays to stay competitive. Disappointing to see the Rays lose so many games they should have won this year, but Friedman isn’t to blame. Trading Kaz makes sense, it wasn’t throwing in the towel. Rooting for the Yankees? Only when they play the Bosux and we needed them to win to help us for a playoff spot, and even then it felt like betryal..
Rays/Lightning/USF Bulls/Steelers
by SportsRoadhouse on Aug 30, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Next off-day I'm just posting a thread that says "Hellickson. Discuss"
I guarantee it will be the most popular thread in site history.
so what are everyone's thoughts on Moore? where would you rank him on our prospect list
Id have him 3 prolly behind Helly/Deezy, but I guess I tend to over value pitchers
off the top of my head
Hellickson
Deezy
Moore
Briggy
Beckham
Davis
Mcceachren/Aneury/Barnese/Torres/Lobstein/Mcgee/Kang….not really sure how I’d rank those guys in any order.
Isn't this really sad that the guy we got for freaking Jason Hammel is ranked higher in your personal list than the guys we got for Kazmir
This PTBNL better be freaking sweet
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
from what we gathered in the other thread he should be
but yea Torres and Aneury about about = and I don’t really like Sweeney that much
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