Rays Have One Too Many Loogy's; Brian Shouse Or Randy Choate?

by Tommy Rancel on Aug 8, 2009 2:00 PM EDT Comment 11 comments

A day after a healthy bullpen discussion, it's time to discuss some more. No, I'm not talking about J.P. Howell being taken deep by the evil Dr. Langerhans. I said yesterday even the best bullpen will have a hiccup and that was a full burp. I'm talking about the unnecessary carrying of two members of a seven man bullpen that have exactly the same job. When you carry any specialist on your team, you are basically putting yourself down a man on the roster most nights. When you carry two you are severely limiting the manager's flexibility. Sure, the Rays have four or five relievers capable of going multiple innings, but carrying both Randy Choate and Brian Shouse is a bit redundant.

Maybe the game-tying single by Ichiro is too fresh in my mind, but I think at this point I'm ready to see Shouse go and hand the LOOGY key to Randy Choate. If you look at the overall numbers, there isn't even a question about who should stay or who should go.

	IP	ERA	FIP	K/9	HR/9
Shouse	16.2	5.4	5.89	5.4	2.16
Choate	17.1	2.6	3.88	7.79	1.04

However, we all know that sometimes the lefty specialist has suck it up in lop sided games and face right handed hitters that can easily skew some of the numbers. Here are the important numbers against left handed batters.

	PA	BA	OBP	SLG	HR
Shouse	31	0.25	0.268	0.425	2
Choate	33	0.22	0.273	0.317	1

Choate has allowed less hits, but walked three lefties while Shouse has the higher BAA, but not walked any. Their BABIP's against LHB are similar with Shouse having a .267 and Choate at .276. The big difference is in opponents slugging where opposing hitters are slugging over .100 points higher against Shouse.

If you really wanted to make the argument that Shouse has the longer track record of success against lefties that's fine, but I'll take Choate in this one. The best case scenario would be Andrew Friedman finding a team looking for a LOOGY and flipping Shouse or Choate for a PTBNL or in Shouse's case maybe a team taking on his contract will do. Either way carrying two loogy's or loogi is similar to carrying a third catcher. Its fine in September, but when you are clawing your way back to the top in a pennant race all you are doing is leaving your gun one bullet shy of a full round.

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Same is said about QB's, if you have two, you have none

by Raymondo on Aug 8, 2009 2:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd like to trade Shouse or put him on waivers

and then bring up Sonnanstine. If a starter goes down I’d like to see them replaced by Davis.

Been on the bandwagon since '98

by dray on Aug 8, 2009 2:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I dont have the stats on this

but how many games have they both been used? Thats my main problem with this, especially when our starters have been giving us so many more quality starts lately. It would be one thing if there were still multiple opportunities to use two loogys in one game, but they just arent there anymore. Wheeler has really turned into our 8th inning guy (and deservingly so), and obviously JP has the 9th. That means we are mixing and matching in the 7th, and there just arent that many times where were going to need two lefty matchup guys. Even in these last two extra inning games, I think only one of Shouse or Choate has pitched each time. Get rid of Shouse IMO.

by BJ the Bossman on Aug 8, 2009 2:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

what I think you are truly getting at here isn't that we have one too many loogys

we have two too many loogys.

Lance Cormier against LHP in 2009 – 28 2/3 innings .227 BAA 9 BB 18K 1 HR

Davis + Sonnanstine > Shouse + Choate

by Dbullsfan on Aug 8, 2009 2:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

a loogy is only good if that guys is really really good

if another pitcher who can go more than 1 batter is just as good there is no point in having them on your roster.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 8, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

other pitchers aren't quite that good

if you want to make Comrier the “loogy” type then fine, but I’d rather keep one

by Navi's_Navy on Aug 8, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shouse should not face any righties.

Choate can be in there against righties here and there. Shouse has been better against lefties though. I agree keep Choate loss Shouse.

"What the hell is a Labradoddle?"

by davelrogers on Aug 8, 2009 2:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

^lose Shouse

"What the hell is a Labradoddle?"

by davelrogers on Aug 8, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shouse is wasting a roster spot

can’t eat innings, only can face lefties, not even as good as Choate. Might as well bring Nelson back up as soon as he straightenes himself out.

by sofladude77 on Aug 8, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

as long as someone takes Shouse off our hands I'm fine with Choate

but quite frankly I’m fine with either of them going forward, whoever we can get SOME sort of return (even if its just money for) would be splendid.

by Navi's_Navy on Aug 8, 2009 4:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Stat measures are relatively meaningless here

LOOGY’s numbers are generally skewed badly by 1 or 2 bad outings due to limited IP. a single 3 run HR following 2 BB would add 1.5 to either’s ERA, let alone the FIP damage.

Over the years Shouse has been much better than Choate, who’s younger but not young. And don’t try a AAA to MLB comp – didn’t Winston Abreu remind all of that folly? Shouse does cost somewhat more – I suspect that’s a big part of this board’s disfavor with him – but sometimes you do get what you do, or don’t, pay for.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Aug 8, 2009 4:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs