Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

Why The 2009 Rays Failed to Reach the Playoffs: The Pitchers

Let's start with the rotation:

Pitcher IP FIP xFIP tRA (SC) tRA*
Garza 177.7 4.21 4.53 4.88 4.93
Niemann 151.3 4.15 4.92 4.53 4.84
Price 102.7 4.68 4.7 5.7 5.42
Shields 192.7 4.19 4.32 4.87 4.79

 

People are going to look at this and wonder what the heck is going on. Now I kept this to the current rotation but obviously Wade Davis' sample size is A) way too small and B) way too skewed to really tell us anything about him. That will be the case throughout the rest of the season.

Star-divide

FIP and tRA paint similar pictures (remember that tRA is on a run average scale, not earned run average like FIP, so if you want equal ground, either add 0.35 to FIP or subtract 0.35 from tRA) when it comes to performances. Price is the one they disagree on the most and that has to do with some oddly high line drive rates. Niemann appears on his way to avoiding the homer bug entirely this year, doubt that happens next year. Garza is what he is. Shields is underappreciated. He's not a "true ace" or anything like that, but he's an extremely solid front-end starter being paid unlike one.

Heading into next year you have to hope Wade Davis can pull a Brett Anderson and that David Price can pull a Scott Kazmir (of 2005, sillies).

We all know how the Kazmir and Sonnanstine starts went this year. Gah.

The staff lacks an ace and people will to point to this as a weakness. Those people are completely ignoring that the 2008 staff lacked an ace as well, but had a number of above average starters. This rotation got off on a bad foot and had some sour apples. I doubt Jim Hickey gets fired - I would love Rick Peterson though - and I have no idea what an extra few weeks of rest will do for their start next year, but where the 2009 rotation felt stale and full of assumed performances, the 2010 rotation is going to be fresh and incredibly fun to watch.

Or at least it should be.

As for the pen:

 

Pitcher IP pLI FIP tRA (SC) tRA*
Balfour 60.3 1.09 3.49 4.19 4.64
Choate 28 0.83 3.93 3.99 4.17
Cormier 70.3 0.61 3.86 4.69 4.68
Howell 63.7 1.86 3.67 3.9 3.82
Shouse 22.7 0.87 5.28 6.62 4.73
Wheeler 50.7 1.16 4.69 3.97 4.19

 

Balfour gets a ton of hate, but he's been solid. Choate has outpitched Brian Shouse. Lance Cormier started off fantastically and has since slowed down a bit. I'm not going to hate on the guy or anything, he's fine as a long reliever, but maybe that's where he should stay heading forward.  J.P. Howell is awesome. Dan Wheeler was also pretty solid.

I suppose some will look at this recent stretch and ‘remember' the entire season as being like this. That's unfair and quite untrue. They were shaky in the beginning thanks to Employee #40 and shaky in the end, but in between there were some fun, reliable times to be had.

Much with the rotation, you lack a truly dominant pitcher. I think J.P. Howell can be that, and he was that until the second half. Expect some movement in the pen.

Comment 128 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Since we basically have fallen out of it this past 30 days

i decided to take a closer look

In that period (i know sample size, but for the purpose of why we fell out) i find SP has been very good 4.15 ERA with a 3.98 FIP

On the flip side in that same period relievers are an AL worst 5.96 ERA and 6.14 FIP

WHether it’s scoring runs, SP or bullpen the one aspect this ’09 team fails at is consistency

by sternfan1 on Sep 11, 2009 7:36 AM EDT reply actions  

Balfour might be what you call 'solid'

but i uncovered a couple stats that i find of concern

1- his BABIP last season was 211 v 311 this year, which tells me he had lady luck on his side

2- his K% last season was 38% v 23 this year

by sternfan1 on Sep 11, 2009 9:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Haha

You are right. But this has been pointed otu so many times on this site. BABIP was silly low last yr and couldn’t be sustained. THe K% drop has been disappointing, but 23% is nothing to discard.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Your glib comments aren't funny or illustrastive.

Everyone agrees Balfour wasn’t as good this year, and I don’t think many thought he’d be one of the three best relievers in baseball again. What is your general point?

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

What has his velocity done?

and if it’s down, is that cause for concern?

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 11, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why are you being an ass

Debating is one thing, but you’re tone is more casutic than usual

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe so, but i'm a bit tired of researching stats

which i’ve been told i never do, and then have a couple posters refute them for personal reasons

I thought my first post on RJ’s thread was very on-topic and had merit

by sternfan1 on Sep 11, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Congrats

A few coherrent posts with a semblance of substance, so you go and act like a dick?

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

You stated yesterday that you were going to follow me around, a bit disturbing in itself, well have fun at it

i’ve decided to no longer respond to anything you post

See, your problem is this, while we’re all huge Rays fans, you refuse to take off the rose colored glasses and see things as they really are

I choose not to have multiples when a reliever or any player does what they’re being paid to do, it’s when they’re not i take exceprion

Isn’t that how the rest of the world works?

by sternfan1 on Sep 11, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

A day off rom adcting like a cry-baby never hurt anyone.

I’m sure he’ll run to RJ, but perhaps RJ will see this.

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not sure what was so out of the ordinary here

Which means there is probably a bannable offense in there, but not sure I would have banned the mook.

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 11, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

He’s just openly taunting people over and over.

See, your problem is this, while we’re all huge Rays fans, you refuse to take off the rose colored glasses and see things as they really are

I choose not to have multiples when a reliever or any player does what they’re being paid to do, it’s when they’re not i take exceprion

TTrying to debate with him is pointless, but the last few days it seems he’s been more over the top and caustic than usual.

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wear "Rose" glasses...

but that’s when I’m watching the Bulls.

And Yes Sternfan does this quit acting shocked

Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz

by SRQman on Sep 11, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Of course, he's in his glory right now, the Rays are playing not good, Balfour has been worthless

we’re striking out a ton at the dish, etc… Nothing is really different, don’t let him get to you.

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 11, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I prob agree w you

But I don’t play the ban/unban game. He runs the risk of being banned daily and he knows it. If someone wants to ban or unban him for short periods its no issue with me. His usual circular arguments without strong statistical backing is one thing, but today was full of comments jsut meant to incite DRB users.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

and

/thread

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 11, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

This

I figured I’d give him a few hours off to to try to get back to questioning and not taunting/baiting. He frequently povides constructive commentarry, but he’s just trolling the past couple days.

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sounds like you need a bottle and a nap old man

It’s very rare that anyone gets praise around here for their hard work. What makes you think an old crank that’s always bitching is going to get any the first time he made an attempt to back up his POV?

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 11, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Your first comment was fine, and one of your better researched

However Sutree was correct it was random variance as explained by you.

If you don’t want to back statements up with facts, then take a breather

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't want to pin it on random variance just yet

Although TBH I don’t know how much work has been done on pitcher volatility. As most of you know I am a big believer in volatility for both hitters and pitchers. Not neccessarily ‘streaky’ but more like certain traits lends itself to volatility. For example my guess is a pitcher with a high K% and a high BB% is going to be far more volatile on a day in and day out basis than a pitcher that is more in the normal range. So while it may be true that it is random that the crappy part of the volatility curve happened at the worst possible time, it would still be something that we should expect. Of course I dunno all the research that has been done on it so I could purely be talking out of my backside.

I just think we should watch out for calling something random because we haven’t found something yet. As far as I know it is not proven either way.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thats what I'd think also

I think on an individual basis streakiness would exist and IMHO wouldn’t be that tough to pinpoint why. However on a team basis I bet most teams have an equal % of streaky and consistent guys. That doesn’t mean if a FO knows what to look for that it wouldn’t be able to load up on consistent or streaky type guys.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also

Moreso with our team I think you have a certain player profile and that lends itself more to games where you can’t seem to get on the board or games where you score a lot.

What about the issue that in high-scoring games the SP is generally jettisoned for a picther of less quality. That could play a part in it as well.

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure

I fully support digging deeper. I think his point was that a different part of the team faltered at various points. Roster was not all that different from 2008 where the results were much different.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

That could definitely be true

I guess I’m just thinking if the team is constructed full of streaky type players then shouldn’t we expect streaks? Perhaps not in the 162 game variety (but then again this leads back to my point about trailing data), but if we have a streaky complexion then we should expect to be on and off.

But then again if you are full of streaky guys then the number of guys ‘on’ and ‘off’ should balance out at nearly all times.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm still thinking overuse is part of the pen's problem

based on the appearance data alone coupled with each guy having to warm prior to each appearance.

I gues looking for how many times guys got up and worked in the pen whether they appeared or notcould color this – perhaps Madden always uses the guys who warm – but I kind of doubt it.

by nyyfaninlaaland on Sep 12, 2009 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just did some analysis and the results were a bit of the yikes

According to matthan expected K% formula which is K%=(ClStr%.9)+(Foul%.5)(InPly%*-.9)(InZSwStr%1.1)+(OZSwStr%1.5)

Balfour’s 08 exK was= 24.3% while his actual was 36.8%
His 09 xK% is 16.7% while his actual is 22.8%.

Maybe this isn’t the K% floor?

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

For the most part guys that have a real high K% are usually outperforming off of that formula

And it the formula doesn’t explain everything, so there is something else that is causing certain pitchers to get a boatload of k’s. However I think it is safe to say a pitcher that is outperforming by that margin is getting lucky in some way. I do think Balf is a guy that will consistently outperform it though. I think he will settle down in the 20 range unless he pick up whatever he lost last year and get back to the 25 range. Safe to say last year was pretty flukish.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, but his swinging strike% was about 11.8 last year and 8.3% this year

I would imagine that BP guys in general may be overinflated due to more frequent handedness advantages but that is just a guess. You teased me with the expected BB%, is it coming?

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

How was that formula derived?

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 11, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Took like 4 years of data: K% as well as InZSwS, OZSwS, ClStr, etc (all as a % of total pitches)

Then regressed all of those against the K%. I believe the R-Squared was real high (like 75-80%?) so it predicts K% pretty well. In effect it shows the importance of swinging strikes.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is it still a work in progress? any adaptations or changes?

and is it to be used as a predictive tool, or a comparison to show what we should have gotten or expected?

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 11, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

More data would be better

I’d also like to change the sample a bit. And of course if we were able to get more specific pitch results (say in and out of zone for everything) then we’d get even a better answer. Either way I don’t think it’ll change that much.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually I think it was more than 4 years of data

Either way the sample size was fairly huge. There would be a bit more work that needs to be done on that front, but for the time being that formula is fairly sufficient for our purposes here.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Whoa the Adj R-Squared was even higher than I remembered

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

What I like about it is that we can essentially measure the change of K% if a pitcher is able to switch one result to anothe result

For example if a pitcher is suddenly able to convert some Fouls to swinging strikes we should be able to predict what it should do to his K rate.

Which from what I recall, is what happened to Niemann. Instead of getting more pitches of the Foul or In Play variety he has gotten more Swinging Strikes. So I’d expect that his expected strikeouts would be higher now.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hellicksons AAA Sw Strike #'s indicated his K% and k/9 were grossly underpeforming

since then he his end results have been far more reflective of his whiffs.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just due to regression it is pretty rare to see a guy with a high K% underperforming...

That just shows how much he is truly dominating.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Balfour

When I did this initial analysis

Grant Balfour K% 23.46% xK% 20.75% Difference -2.71%

So as the year went on he definitely got far worse…..

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

From what I recall I think his walk rate has increased

The formula definitely factors in walk rates in indirectly…so this could be where the problem lies.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Like I said below...

As his command/control got worse, he got worse. A lot harder to strike guys out when you start 3-0/2-0 every AB. I wonder if the extra innings took a toll on his arm, so he started to overthrow. Thus his command sufferred.

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also I think you'd be interested in my next project, which would end up being even better with more heads thinking and working with it

There are a few things I want to look at

1. RPG variance. I want to see how something like Strikeouts impacts runs per game. What I was thinking about was getting all their runs per game and getting the standard deviation of them for each team for each season over like 5 years. Then matching up that with their strikeouts for that season. Then seeing what if there is a link between higher standard deviations and higher strikeouts

There are also other ways to see if there is a link (say LD%, FB%, etc)

2. If there is a decent relationship that explains RPG variance then I went to see how that impacts expected wins and losses. I think a simple starting point would be to take the pythag and add another variable (such as the standard deviation of runs per game).

3. The last thing I think would be awesome to look at would be to look at the streakiness of teams and players. I think a good starting point for this would be like say a 14 day trailing OPS (or a month). IMHO we need to get away from looking at months of a season and begin to look at trailing numbers.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great idea.

A few caveats.

The background work is AWFUL. If there is a way to get the RS-RA per game for the entire league it would make it so much easier. I think you should run it on BB%, K%, FB%, and some kind of contact %. That may help flesh it out more.

I’d be glad to help in somerespects as well.

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would be willing to collect and organize data for you, say a couple of divisions, but before I do I'd want to know

what other variables you might be interested in so that I don’t delete columns only to have to go back and add them in later. This seems not too hard, actually, so let me know if I can help in any way.

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 11, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is my problem

Way too often I try to collect data from multiple sources and then try to consolidate it to give it a more cleaner, but then realizing that I deleted a column that I wanted to use eventually.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

A few ideas:

Give every team a team ID that consists of 1-30 based on alphabetical order and a two digit year. I.E. BAL in 08 would be 0108. That way it makes vlookups and stuff easier.

DO NOT DELETE ANYTHING. Copy and paste into another workbook or use vlookups/pivots. Keep all the source data.

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually I think it would be a great idea if we somehow made a master workbook (with all stats over say 2003 to 2008) and then posted it to googledocs

And then each person could go into it and then manipulate it from there. It would just be awesome if we could just eliminate the data collection problem.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Hook85 is the reason

then R.J. needs to put some dirt on that wound and get back in the game

Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz

by SRQman on Sep 11, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

He’s abandoned us.

He’s gone the way of Tommy Rancel and Erik Hahmann.

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Party?

Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz

by SRQman on Sep 11, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure there is much of a problem

If we broke it down so that 3 guys each did 2 divisions for 10 years, that’s like 50 seasons. It would take about 30 seconds to get the data if you use B-Ref .csv league registers.

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 11, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh you're talking each player?

I was thinking you just take the 162 team games and look at K, HR, BB, FB, GB as independent variables of the dependent variable Runs.

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 11, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh

I thought we were talking about creating a database with every players gamelogs or something.

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I probably misinterpreted

SQL would almost be a necessity I would think for your undertaking

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 11, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ah we are talking about two different things

Both projects are something I’d like to see accomplished. With the gamelogs we were talking about having a trailing number for each player for say wOBA or OPS.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I caught on to that, I think point 1 of your initial post is very doable

If we were to compare k’s to ST. DEV of Runs, what would be the measure of K’s you would use?

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 11, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm thinking just the teams K% (of overall PAs, not outs) for the season

I don’t think there would be a major difference if we used overall K’s, but I think K% would be better. I don’t think even using the mean or median K for the players on the team would be that bad either; although we’d have a PA issue there.

So really I’m thinking just doing K/PA and then comparing it to the std dev of runs scored

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok so for example, I have in 2008 the Rays averaged 4.78 R/G with a St. Dev. of

3.138619. There were 6,312 PA with 1,224 K’s for a ratio of 0.193916 K/PA.

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 11, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Many sites do it already

Some already do last 30 days or last 14 days. It is just a matter of graphing/collecting that data.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Trailing would be awesome

but so tedious. Might even be easier to wait till next season and do it real time using Fangraphs previous 14 days feature

I think variance is a great project for RPG

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm honestly shocked that trailing data isn't already available

It would give so much information. With those curves we’d actually be able to see if a player has truly been ‘up and down’. Then we could compare the curves for multiple players and we could easily see who has been more consistent over time.

Not to link it too much for finance but if we had multiple curves (say 14 game, 30 game, 81 game, 162 game then we could really draw a lot of conclusions from it FAR faster than what we do now.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

no argument here

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Would it be that hard to crate them though?

I wouldn’t think so. If you just did trailing graphs of wOBA or something. The issue is collecting ALL the game-by-game data. One player would be easy, but the entire MLB universe would be an entirely different undertaking.

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh no doubt

I’m not sure how all the sites work now, but I’m assuming it is pretty seamless to plug in the results of a game into the players overall stats for player cards/leaderboards/etc. If they already can do that I don’t think it would be that difficult to be able to add in another parameter to only count the last 14/30/162 etc, and then feed that info into a graph.

However it would be literally impossible to do by hand. Even one player would be pain in the butt.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was just thinking about taking a teams overall K's or K% (for the season) and comparing it to the standard deviations of rpg (for the season)

My hypothesis would be that a higher K% would result in a higher std of rpg

Of course I’m sure there are better ways to answer that question. More people thinking about it the better.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we should do more than just Ks.

I think maybe 3TOs at least. High 3TO teams would likely be higher SD.

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I definitely think other variables impact run variance

HRs for example would be a huge one. More things we can throw in the pot the better…then just pick the best one.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think its best

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alright cool

I’ll take the AL Central, 2004-08, and see what I come up with. My summary will look like this

Det08| St. Dev R| HR/PA | BB/PA| SO/PA

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 11, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also what I think is most important about this isn't the actual K% or the xK%

But rather that the formula shows that there was supposed to be a drop. In other words Balfour in reality has truly pitched worse this year. Whether that is a function of hitters not getting fooled as much or a drop in ‘stuff’…I don’t know. But he is most certainly getting a FAR inferior set of results with his pitches as compared to last year.

An 8% drop in xK% is huge.

In theory I don’t think you’d expect much variance from year to year. The results of his pitches shouldn’t change so much year to year. So something changed.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not only his location, but it seems like guys are laying off him early in the count

Makes sense, I mean, if you’re behind 1-2 or something, you know he’s still going to pump fastballs so it’s not as big of a deal as being behind a Brandon League or some other guy with a great in-the-dirt pitch. He is at his best against free swingers. Maybe Joe should only use him against guys that swing at XX% of pitches OOZ. If it’s crunchtime, otherwise I would use him as is.

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 11, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmm...

Good point. I wonder if further work on the slider might help. People pointed to his age, but as an Aussie I wonder about his age/experience as compared to pitchers from baseball hotbeds. Like how many IP he has on his arm prior to his pro years? He obviously didn’t have the first-rate comp. or training…

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great point Sandy

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

But of course that is what regression means

It is obviously expected that outliers will be expected to increase or decrease. Although 12% difference last year is huge.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Of course

The R-Squared isn’t 100%. Heck none of these stats we use are perfect. They are just improvements over older ones and then one day we will have even better improvements. There are most certainly factors that I did not account for and even factors that can change all the time that would influence a K rate. For example if MLB suddenly switched to robot umpiring then this formula would certainly change.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh and FYI to anyone that wants to use it...

Make sure you put the +’s between each product

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

In a very non-scientific way i look back to an AB v Bobby Abreu in the

midst of last year’s seven game losing streak

Close game, Balfour threw him FB after FB which he fouled off, finally crushing one to deep CF and thus losing the game

Point: Throw an off-speed pitch once in a while

by sternfan1 on Sep 11, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Well I think this point proves the value of Balfour

If he is able to do this well by virtually ‘not pitching’ and just ‘throwing’, then just imagine how good he will be once he learns how to pitch?

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 11, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Age will probably prohibit much of a learning curve

He’s throwing the slider more this year, with better results. His fastball has had a much lesser effectiveness, while still being above average.
 
With the exception of last year he has always allowed a higher than avg line drive . This years 21.3 is actually his second lowest #.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

My favorite part was his "stats".

He accuses us of cherry-picking to put a spin on something and yet isn’t that exactly what he just did? I mean, the main posters form a hypothesis, research and pull data, then form an opinion based on a wide variety of stats. You can’t just take BABIP and say “Lookie here! He’s bad like I say! See!”

Sign lady must die.
Be the first on your block to own DRB Gear.

by EminenceFront on Sep 11, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I mean ultimatum

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 11, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ahhhh

I don’t care one way or the other. I just didn’t want this promising thread to get derailed with his “look at me” crap. It was starting to, so I ended it. We permabanned him once, and he came back Raymondo. He was tolerable for awhile under the new name, but I think once he realized everyone new he was he came back with a vengeance.

by rglass44 on Sep 11, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Go ahead and ban him again.

I know I don’t have the willpower to resist assaulting him, which is part of what derails a lot of threads.

by Suttree on Sep 11, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

But when there's no stat left to be turned over

What are we going to do but poke that old jagoff with a stick?

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Sep 11, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

For a better analysis of the rays bullpen...without just numbers...

Numbers do not determine a pitcher. As Vin Scully said “Statistics are used like a drunk uses a lamp post—-for support, not illumination.” For a better analysis, try this blog i found.

by mitt123 on Sep 12, 2009 2:08 PM EDT reply actions  

The 2009 Tampa Bay Rays

It seems like The Rays have quit playing for Maddon. His mismanaging his pitchers has cost this team dearly. How many times has the starting pitcher has a great game going, gives up a hit in the late innings and he pulls him out, only to have he bullpen choke it away??? They need that closer. One who puts fear in batters. The relief pitchers who they have scare no one. When they traded Kaz away to LA, this team took it as a sign that the front office was throwing in the towel for 2009. 2008 was a magical year here In the Tampa area, but it seems now that it was a fluke. Their starting pitching staff is over rated. Shields is not the #1 starter that the Rays think he is. He is nothing more than a #4 starter. The staff has to be re-done. Niemann,Garza, Price and Davis should be the top 4 in 2010. Another big thing that was missing from this years team was chemistry. 2008 had that with Cliff Floyd, Eric Hinske and a couple other players. No one stepped up to assume the role. Evan Longoria tried and I hope he continues. But, it takes more that a 2nd year pro to do it. So, my opinion basically comes down to this for 2010…….Rebuild the pitching staff from top to bottom. Now, I know thats not easy to do but the Rays have the young talent to take over. Like I said earlier, they have 4 young pitchers that can do it.. As for the bullpen, trash it except for Balfour , Bradford and Howell. Go get that feared closer that all winning teams need. Look at all the teams with winning records. They all have something in common. A 40 save’s a season closer. The Rays will never contend with what they have. People arent stupid. Thats why the crowds havent been showing up this year. They know ownership isnt willing to pay for a winning team.

by Gary F on Sep 13, 2009 3:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Please comment less and read more.

You have a lot to learn about baseball before being so cocksure.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 13, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Founded in 2005, DRaysBay is home to, "Progressive statistical analysis and reasoned argument."

Please read our Community Guidelines.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Spts-shelton_small
Which Red Sox Fan Are You?
Spts-shelton_small
The Opportunity of the Century
Ryu_small
This one goes out to all the chicken littles
Small
MLB needs to help bring All-Star game to Bay Area
Small
Who's That in My Old Seats?

Recent FanPosts

Untitled4_small
The Rays Should 'Retaliate' By Winning
Whelk_small
Rays 7, Sox 4; Immediate Reactions
Images_small
Post-Game (Over)Reactions here
Small
Proposal: Rays play a series in Durham each year
Ag_-_hector_gomez_-_63_small
Visiting Tampa Bay from Colorado
Images_small
Immediate Reactions: Rays Win, But Likely Lose Another Guy

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Catch For the Ages
Brandon Guyer out for season
Other Side of the Coin: Rodney's Fortune on Called Strikes
Does anyone have any information on Josh Sale? He doubled in a run in his...
Orlando Hudson released
Rays sign Garko to minor league...
Baseball Card Fans...check out my Ebay Auctions
Cameron Seitzer Growing Up Baseball
Longo injury apparently is apparently not good
Hak-Ju Lee, SS, Rays (Double-A Montgomery) Lee had a breakout year in...

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Friends of the Site

DRB Suggestion Box

Drb4_medium

Yahoo_full_count

Managers

Slowsky__1__small Steve Slowinski

Images_small Jason Collette

Brad_small BWoodrum

Price_small Erik Hahmann

Analysts

Small td32

Rutg_uakjmedjwh9ndzd4lkll_small Imperialism32

100_1952_small MrNegative1

Steak-with-crown_small CBJones

Whelk_small Whelk

Scaled_php_small mr. maniac

Tampa_theatre_small jcmitchell

Me_small John Gregg

Small SGrauer