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Around SBN: The End Of Sabanball: Details, Barbarians, And Precision

Have You Seen David Price's Slider?

Way back before the season started I remember spending at least a week talking about David Price's lost slider. In case you're new to these parts or need a reminder, Price said he was working on his other pitches so much that he felt his slider was "lost." This caused a bit of a concern for us because Price's slider was considered to be the 1B to his fastball's 1A in terms of pitch effectiveness. Way back before the 2007 draft, Baseball America said his slider was a 70 pitch. That is the definition of a plus slider.

According to the pitch values on FanGraphs, Price's slider has been anything but a plus pitch. In fact, it has been the Major Leagues worst slider for a starting pitcher (min. 100 innings pitched). With a wSL of -7.3, Price's slider has hardly been the weapon we envisioned. Either the slider was not as effective as once thought or it is still lost, and should be posted on the back of milk cartons and LED highway signs immediately.

Star-divide

 

While I'm not Josh Kalk or Harry Pavlidis with the pitch F/X, the problem seems to stem from movement or a lack there of. Price's slider has barely moves horizontally(-0.1). The vertical movement is almost as non existment, but slighly better (1.4). Here's a look at both during Price's start against the Yankees on 9/8/09.

3184_p_2_200909080_game_medium

via www.fangraphs.com

3184_p_3_200909080_game_medium

via www.fangraphs.com

Let's compare Price's slider to that of Brett Anderson's, whose slider has earned a wSL of 21.5; you'll see the difference. Both pitchers are left handed and throw their sliders around 84 mph, but notice the movement of Anderson's. Here are the movement charts for Anderson off the same Yankee Stadium mound.

8223_p_3_200907240_game_medium

via www.fangraphs.com

8223_p_2_200907240_game_medium

via www.fangraphs.com

Note the chart lists the pitch as a cutter, but according to FanGraphs pitch selection data, Anderson does not throw a cutter. Cutters and sliders are often confused as the same pitch (see James Shields).

In any event, you can clearly see the cluster of red and purple move a lot more, especially vertically.

Blame it on the alcohol, the rain or Jim Hickey, but that "70" slider is not there any more. The good news is during the '09 offseason Price will not have to worry about locking in a roster spot or developing a third pitch. Price has thrown his third offering, the change-up, around 6.5 % of the time. The really good news is in its small sample size (~130 pitches) it's been a slightly above average to average pitch. With a plus fastball and an average-ish change-up, Price needs to gather a search party and find that missing piece of the puzzle. Any volunteers?

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P.s.

Seeing the way Davis used his curve and how nasty it really makes me want to see Price’s slider back even more. These two are going to be a problem for opponents for years to come

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by Tommy Rancel on Sep 18, 2009 12:04 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Pitch F/x

Having “no horizontal movement” is incorrect. Remember that Pitch F/x measures pitches in relation to what they would be without the effect spin has on it (IE no backspin, no topspin, no magnus effect).

The best way to approach it is to measure how the slider compares to the fastball, where the horizontal movement is significant. You referred to his vertical movement as slightly better (1.4 inches). It would probably be better if it was lower than 1.4, since that means there would be more sink in comparison to the fastball.

A good slider is actually pretty close to the origin on the Pitch F/x Horizontal/Vertical movement graph.

by truantbuick on Sep 18, 2009 1:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes, the vertical movement would be better if it were down

Which is why I threw the comp to Brett Anderson’s slider which sinks quite a bit. Price’s slider hasn’t had much down action so far in the majors especially compared to how it did at Vandy.

That’s what I mean in terms of no movement. I saw some video of Price where the ball just darted in on lefties and fell off a table vertically. We’ve rarely seen that slider this year.

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Sep 18, 2009 1:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Since you seem to have a good handle on p f/x

What do you think about Edwin Jackson’s slider?

www.draysbay.com

by Tommy Rancel on Sep 18, 2009 1:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Do we have any pitch f/x from last year to compare to?

I’d be really interested to see if the movment on his slider has changed this year

"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige

by Steve Slowinski on Sep 18, 2009 11:14 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

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