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Langoria to Longo, BJ, Attendance, Fire Merlot and Andrew lets hang some Durham Banners at the Trop!

 

I know we typically frown on ranting on this board, but I think I reached my tipping point.



Star-divide

Firstly with the good. Evan was/is my favorite player (BJ is #2, but I don’t think he really plays anymore). I just loved the way he played the game and his passion as well as his intensity. However this year was a bit different. His performance is fine, but not as good as we hoped. The main problem for me was that the way he played the game changed. Just like his quote prior to last nights game saying how this series vs the Red Sox was just like any other series and that they weren’t treating it differently. However Evan did something that turned his Langoria type 2009 into a Longoria. He bunted. I’m not a big fan of bunting, but I love the message and the attitude. It showed that deep down, in places Joe Maddon doesn’t allow the players to talk about, that Evan knew the importance of the game. That is the way Evan played last year. All out, every game. Keep that up.

 

Pena and BenZo are monsters. I wouldn’t be opposed to extending both of them. Pena for less years obviously.

 

What the heck happened to BJ Upton? Would Theo give us Ellsbury for Upton? Pretty please? God Ellsbury was a monster last night. He is arguably the worst “hitter” out of any ML starter I’ve ever seen. He isn’t nearly as bad offensively due to his speed and his eye. Speaking of his eye, he needs to realize robots aren’t behind the plate. BJ, umpires don’t call the book strike zone. Adapt. Back to his hitting. God is it awful. Would he be able to catch up to a baseball that was placed on a tee? Why does he feel the need to swing once the ball hits the catchers mitt? I don’t think hes suddenly lost all his talent to become Sandy Kazmir with the stick. So that leaves a few possibilities. The possible solutions in (). In fact the Rays should explore every one of these possible issues. BJ has too much talent to not cover every single potential problem. In no particular order:

 

  1. His mechanics are screwed up (BenZos and MVBs hitting coach)
  2. His shoulder is hurt (Dr. James Andrews)
  3. His bat speed is too slow (#1, #2, + Victor Conti)
  4. He has the Rick Ankiel mind disease (a shrink, a vacation, and a room full of aromatherapists)
  5. He has eye problems (go see a freaking eye doctor)

 

Personally I think it is #1, #3, #4, but Andrew you should cover all the possibilities.

 

Attendance. What the hell Tampa Bay? This is the biggest series since the World Series and you don’t show up. How highly embarassing. St Pete does not deserve the team. Does Tampa? Does the area? I’m leaning towards no. This has been the most disappointing Rays season (due to expectations and major underperformance), but we are still pretty darn good. Way over .500 plus in the wild card hunt plus playing the team we were hunting. That is prime baseball time. If the area will only support the Rays when they are in 1st then the team should move. That was just a pitiful and sad showing. Tickets were really cheap. I got 2nd row in right field for 15 bucks (2 for 30). Why aren’t people showing up? I’m sure there is a bit of cannabalism with the concerts, but still. It is just embarassing. We live in the worst baseball market in America.

 

Sonny, go back to what you were doing last year. Pretty please.

 

Fire Joe Maddon. Seriously. I always thought he was bad, but most managers are poor so I didn’t want Maddon fired. It would have been tough to upgrade if we went the traditional route. However Maddon has proven to be one of the worst in the league. He is full of gimmicks, but is absolutely pitiful with game strategy. We could have won maybe 10 to 15 more games if our manager just did the correct move. Would we have won? Not all 15, but a handful. Three of our last four losses Maddon has had a major hand in. Ranging from the Niemann/Balfour/Granderson fiasco to the giant egg he laid last night. Lets talk about last night. Aki/BenZo instead of BenZo/Kapler. Mistake #1. That was fairly close, but the numbers clearly point to ben and gabe. Considering Aki’s error as well as his really slow turn on the double play……nice move. Oh lets throw multiple pitch outs when Andy is walking guys. You know the plan is to not allow Ellsbury to steal, but instead lets just let him walk to first. Nice move Joe. What about sending Sonny out for his last inning? That also was close, but the move again was to be yanked. Oh and the not pinch running for Navi in the 8th was a total brain fart. What are you thinking Joe? Throw in other things that a good, smart team would have done and we could have easily won (say pinch hitting for Upton).

 

I got more but I cant think now. All in all that was a total fail of a team effort last night.

 

Oh and I like the Kaz trade now.

 

Oh and Friedman….the major league playoffs are more important than the Durham playoffs. Can the Rays hang a banner for that champtionship? Would have been nice to pinch hit Joyce for Upton? Or perhaps allow Perez to run for Navi? Perhaps that’s why people don’t show up.

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Actually I forgive Andrew

He probably knows that if he brought guys like Joyce up that Maddon wouldn’t use him properly anyways.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Sep 2, 2009 9:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

"How highly embarassing. St Pete does not deserve the team. Does Tampa? Does the area? I’m leaning towards no."

Can’t believe I agree with you, here.

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Sep 2, 2009 10:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

A game like last night should be worthy of travel. Folks in Tampa, Pasco, Hernando, Polk, etc should all be willing to drive the extra half hour

It was THE BIGGEST GAME of the year. Yet the fans did not show up. I have no idea why (I think the concert series cannabalizes from other games), but it is at the point that the why is irrelevant. Fan support here is minimal.

What I also noticed, and what should be discussed, is the total number of individuals that go to the game. Not the total number that walk through the door. What I mean is count each person just once no matter how many games they go to. In effect counting our “fan base” that goes to the games. By this I mean I’ve noticed that we have tons and tons of fans that go to tons of games. It is a walk up crowd, but it is the same people doing the walking up. I go to 30 to 40 games a year, and I walk up to all of them. I know numerous people that do the same. We don’t seem to have very many fans that go to 1 or 2 games a year. The number of fans that go to the game is extremely small.

Unfortunately I think over the past year or two we haven’t really grown the fan base. What we’ve done is essentially make the fan that has gone to 5 games a year go to 10, the fan that goes to 15 games go to 25, etc. We haven’t gotten enough fans that went to 0 games to go to 2 or 3.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Sep 2, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have a tough time dogging attendance

mainly because I dont go to many games. Granted, I’m in Oldsmar, which is about 50-60 minutes away, but I find myself watching the games on TV more than going (not so fun fact, ill be at Saturday’s game). Weekend games are easier to make as I have a 8-5 job and a wife, so during the week, its tough to make it.

The other factor is, people are lazy. Some people would rather watch from their couch than pay $15-20 bucks for a ticket. Others just don’t have time. I can watch a game and get work done (and Buc ’Em articles) while I watch the game.

I’m displeased also at the lack of attendance, but until I go to 70+ games, I dont think I can fault otehr people. You’re right, it was a big game, probably the biggest of the year, or so it seemed, and having a poor showing sure didn’t help.

I just don’t want to be the pot calling the kettle.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 2, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well I don't expect anyone to go to that many games

As long as you go to a few games a year then that is sufficient. The key IMHO is for the Rays to get more people to go to a few games a year.

The problem with this “fan base” is the boost in attendance is made up of people like me going to 40 instead of 30, or 20 instead of 15. That is just very fake. If the Rays suck next year then I’ll go to less games. Sure I’ll always go to a lot, but the exact number depends on how the season is going.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Sep 2, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you live in St. Pete?

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Sep 2, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Technically not anymore.

I live and work in Pinellas County though

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Sep 2, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see Rays gear, literally, everywhere I go in North Tampa (NorTam?)/Pasco County.

What’s stopping these folks from getting down there?

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Sep 2, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice rant.

Upton’s decline at the plate really has been of staggering proportions. I’m no sure Joyce won’t WAR better than him in CF next season.

by RaysTheRoof on Sep 2, 2009 10:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hopefully, but im not optimistic.

we can have a Gross/CC/Upton/Zobrist platoon in CF/RF next year. I would like this.

by RaysTheRoof on Sep 2, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uptons defense is great

But how mighty fine would it have been to have Joyce, a lefty, pinch hitting for Upton against Papelbon. Sure Joyce could have failed, he does strike out a lot more. However I gotta believe we would have had a far better chance with him than BJ.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Sep 2, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In that one AB, pinch hitting?

I’d say it would.

Looking for work editing video or in live production. Please help.

by staplemaniac on Sep 3, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know the odds of them actually firing Maddon are almost zero

but damn, TLR and Dave Duncan would be mighty nice.

What you think all the guns is for? All purpose war, got the Rottweilers by the door. And I feed 'em gunpowder, so they can devour the criminals, tryin' to drop my decimals.

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 2, 2009 11:06 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately I think you are right

But these are finance guys. If they think they can improve that much more in the win column (and in the stands) to make up for the extension then they’ll make the move.

Personally I think they’d make more money by firing him.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Sep 2, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Umm.
Fire Joe Maddon. Seriously. I always thought he was bad, but most managers are poor so I didn’t want Maddon fired. It would have been tough to upgrade if we went the traditional route. However Maddon has proven to be one of the worst in the league. He is full of gimmicks, but is absolutely pitiful with game strategy. We could have won maybe 10 to 15 more games if our manager just did the correct move. Would we have won? Not all 15, but a handful. Three of our last four losses Maddon has had a major hand in. Ranging from the Niemann/Balfour/Granderson fiasco to the giant egg he laid last night. Lets talk about last night. Aki/BenZo instead of BenZo/Kapler. Mistake #1. That was fairly close, but the numbers clearly point to ben and gabe. Considering Aki’s error as well as his really slow turn on the double play……nice move. Oh lets throw multiple pitch outs when Andy is walking guys. You know the plan is to not allow Ellsbury to steal, but instead lets just let him walk to first. Nice move Joe. What about sending Sonny out for his last inning? That also was close, but the move again was to be yanked. Oh and the not pinch running for Navi in the 8th was a total brain fart. What are you thinking Joe? Throw in other things that a good, smart team would have done and we could have easily won (say pinch hitting for Upton).

Have you changed your sig, yet?

WHOO, LUKE! LUKE! LUKE!

by Some other guy who does not care on Sep 2, 2009 11:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

All I hit is liners, bud.

I agree almost across the board on this. Apparently, Dave Duncan is pissed at the St. Lou brass for multiple good reasons. LaRussa is in his last year. Say what you will about the guy, but he makes average teams good and good teams great. Even better, he gets the matchup game that AF has tried to exploit with his roster construction. I’ve never rooted for the A’s or Cards so I don’t have a nightly lookin on these two’s styles, but who wouldn’t want LaRussa and Duncan’s track records.

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 2, 2009 11:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I’m not sure what effect a manager actually has on a game but it SEEMS like LaRussa will add roughly 5 wins to a season by the in-game decisions he makes.

The problem with TLR is he would clash big time with our FO. He’d be all pissed if we didn’t trade Desmond Jennings to acquire some washed-up vet who “plays the game the right way.”

What you think all the guns is for? All purpose war, got the Rottweilers by the door. And I feed 'em gunpowder, so they can devour the criminals, tryin' to drop my decimals.

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 2, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point

Maybe it’s just from following these guys for so long, but we don’t seem like a young team. Even Longo plays beyond his years, though I’m sure Upton would be given the boot.

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 2, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This season has been about as frustrating

as last year was awesome. And though I agree with much of what youre saying, I disagree with firing Joe. Ya hes been pretty awful this year, to say the least. But what about last year? He got every win (and then some) out of that team. I know hes cost us games this year but he won us just that many last year. I dont think you can say Maddon is a good or bad manager right now. Obviously one of these seasons was the fluke, but its going to take another one for me to make a true judgment on him. Though I do empathize with those that are going to say “I dont want to wait around and find out”, but I think Joe is gettin it a little hard right now. I know its “what have you done for me lately”, but people are forgetting last year too easily.

by BJ the Bossman on Sep 2, 2009 2:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Last year's awesomeness>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This years frustration

IMO

This year is just fresher in your memory.

Bring Your Z-Game!

by Sveet on Sep 2, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd say we won many games last year in spite of Maddon. He made the wrong moves, but by sheer luck they worked out.

Any move is going to have a chance of working out and not working out. The best moves give the best chance of working out. That doesn’t mean that they will work out. So it is best not to rate a manager based upon team success. First you have the problem I just mentioned, plus perhaps the players are just so good they can win despite a deficiency in one area.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Sep 2, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maddons handling of the bullpen last year

is single handedly enough to say he did a good job. Besides pinch running and hitting, bullpen usage is one of the biggest things a manager contributes to. And he was phenomenal last year. This year? ….

by BJ the Bossman on Sep 2, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just noticed this thread and i'm glad to see it for it'll give me a chance to vent

Last night’s attendance was a slap in the face to the owners/FO/coaches/players of the Tampa Bay Rays

I cannot help but think Sternberg shook his head and said “what the fuck”

I would fully understand if the stadium issue fails, he says bye-bye to Tampa Bay

by sternfan1 on Sep 2, 2009 3:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure you represented yourself and your passion well in the crowd last night.

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Sep 2, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

GOD FUCKING DAMNIT.

Why?

What you think all the guns is for? All purpose war, got the Rottweilers by the door. And I feed 'em gunpowder, so they can devour the criminals, tryin' to drop my decimals.

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 2, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They wont sell you tickets?

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Sep 2, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lame

Might spice it up a bit

Swav or Die (>'-')> <('-')> <('-'<)
For the lulz

by SRQman on Sep 2, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As long as you mentioned him, let's discuss BJ Upton

If he’s truly hurt, get him the hell out of there

Last night when he K’d in the 8th it was a FB right down the middle

If he can’t get around on that pitch anymore, he’s done

by sternfan1 on Sep 2, 2009 3:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Asking a serious question here

Do you think he’s done or can he be salvaged? Is it injury related or is he a flash in the pan?

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 2, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think he really is hurt

Perhaps a bit weak in the shoulder. I think his mechanics are god awful. I think he is mentally checked out at the plate.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Sep 2, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

screw bandwagon fans

Over the Monster: an unofficial blog for Red Sox bandwagon "Fans"

by raysfan81 on Sep 2, 2009 4:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No comment on the other points,

but I can barely contain myself from ranting myself regarding your attacks on Maddon. So I will simply say that in my view you are not only dead wrong, but perversely wrong and wrong in every other way I can think of.

Aside from the fact, and I say “fact” advisedly, that in-game tactics are a miniscule part of a manager’s job, and further that any effort to evaluate a manager by listing what someone considers errors is nonsensical for too many reasons to list, among the innumerable problems with that kind of analysis being that it fails to account for facts not in evidence, for possibilities not accounted for, for tactics that worked but are subsequently forgotten, for the fact, again using the word intentionally, that in nearly every decision there is no such thing as right or wrong but only a plethora of reasonable alternatives.

And furthermore, to suggest or assume or propose or imply that a baseball man of 35 years experience does not know the conventionally “right” thing to do or values idiosyncratic approaches more than solid fundamentals is ludicrous.

Beyond that, I consider Maddon to be not just a good manager but an elite manager, among the top few in the majors right now. His combination of creativity, interpersonal relations, motivational techniques, balancing of statistical and traditional analyses, attention to detail and an eye for specifics, understanding of his organization’s ethos and ability to interpret it on the field, toughness and restraint, courage to persist in the face of criticism and disappointment while being flexible enough to change when required and many other qualities integral to being a top-notch leader have been in evidence from the day he arrived, and he has never wavered in implementing his program.

Thankfully, I am confident that upper management recognizes his virtues and values his contributions to the Rays’ success. I doubt they are even considering getting rid of him; they are too smart for that.

by bobr on Sep 2, 2009 11:16 PM EDT reply actions   4 recs

Why don't you post more?

I like reading your comments. Nice reprieve from suttree’s fart jokes.

Looking for work editing video or in live production. Please help.

by staplemaniac on Sep 3, 2009 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not that I don't like suttree's fart jokes either.

Looking for work editing video or in live production. Please help.

by staplemaniac on Sep 3, 2009 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BOOOO.

BobR is God, though.

by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So being in baseball a long time means a manager knows the right thing to do?

You do realize that advanced stats and all that stuff are just now really being used by teams?

I have no problem with Maddon being manager AS LONG as a computer makes all the in game decisions. I’m sick of this traditional and by the gut approach he uses. Sure other managers use it more, but any use of the gut is totally wrong. That is a fact.

I want the Rays to hire some really smart programming minds to build a program with all the needed constraints that the Rays can think of and then have it spit out the statistically correct baseball move given the situation. The fact is there are already programs very similar out there now. Maybe not as specific, but when members of this board say “he should have done this because of this” it is because we have statistical foundation in that argument. Essentially the other move would have caused our win probability to increase, even if it is slight.

I’m sick and tired of Maddon making moves, or failing to make a move, that causes our win probability to decrease or remain stagnant in the face of an alternative that would cause our win probability to go up. Perhaps I am a bit too excel and calculator based for you traditional folks. I probably take statistics even more extreme than RJ (although I wouldn’t be surprised if he shared my thoughts on managing) and certainly most of this stats dedicated board. I simply fully 100% disagree with your premise that by the gut traditional managing is correct. If a managers gut tells him the correct move then that is just a mere coincidence. I’d much rather make the statistically correct move all the time.

I just want a manager that goes by that does the ‘right thing’. I define that as making the moves that maximize our win probability. Maddon certainly does not do that, and I doubt any manager making their own decisions could do it. They’d need the help of an advanced cpu program. THAT is what I want.

I do realize that a manager has other roles other than strategy related moves. Motivating/discipline/etc. OK keep Maddon for that. Let the CPU make the strategy moves. Maddon can keep dyeing his hair black and growing a mohawk.

Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks

by matthan on Sep 4, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even if a flawless program is built and the computer spits out that choice A is 60% likely to work and choice B is

55% there is still a 40 and 45%, respectively, likelihood that the move will not work. If choice A is chosen people will bitch that it should have been choice B and vice-versa. The bitching isn’t going to stop since no manager/computer will make flawless decisions.

Embrace Eternity

by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 4, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well you are certainly right that know move will work 100% of the time

I’m not asking to go 162-0 though.

I want the manager to pick the move that gives us the highest probability of success. I’m focused on the process and not the results here.

Can we get robots for umpires and a computer to make in game strategy decisions? I'm sick of inconsistently bad umpiring and Joe's pitiful in game management. Oh and Navi (and BJ) need some PED's. BenZo, Bartlett, and Pena do not.

by matthan on Sep 4, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you know this is not what I said

“So being in baseball a long time means a manager knows the right thing to do?”

And that it is really unfair in a reasoned discussion to misinterpret or misrepresent what someone says.

In fact, in some ways I said just the opposite. I said he knows the "conventional “right” things" things to do, the quotation marks obviously intending to point out that conventional is not necessarily right.

On the contrary, the Rays (and Maddon) are very statistically savvy and like all teams have proprietary stats on which they base decisions. Sometimes the information they have is far more detailed than the ones we commonly recognize, so that matchups, for example, may be not just about lefty-righty or career stats but may be something like this batter’s swing is geared better to this pitcher’s delivery. Some information like that may trump more conventional stats regarding matchups.

In any case, statistical analysis applies to general circumstances, to the odds in models, and much less so to specific cases. For example, I have always hated the sacrifice bunt, well before sabermetrics demonstrated how counter-productive it often is. But there may be cases, and not just men on base/inning issues, that it can be advisable. The generalization does not account for the specifics of who is pitching, who is batting, who is on-deck or in the hole, how the defense is playing, what your own pitcher is doing and how he looks and much more.

That is where the manager’s experience and decision making comes in. He is not violating statistical reasoning; he is applying it to the situation and the variables within it.

And further, sabermetrics is not dogma. It is the opposite of orthodoxy. Every premise, no matter how “sacred” is up for review and challenge. Bill James recently suggested there might be a skill called clutch hitting. DIPs theory has undergone revision and more and more refinement.

The notion that a manager should select the option allowing the highest probability of success is of course valid, but the notion that there is some clear or absolute knowledge of what that choice should be is fallacious. It is precisely because Maddon is so skillful in recognizing the variables and the qualities of his players that he is so successful as a tactician.

by bobr on Sep 4, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

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