9/2 Post-Game: Boston Red Sox @ Tampa Bay Rays
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Why can't we give Balfour's spot to Wheeler?
Will he give up am occasional long ball? Yes
Will he gift wrapped a free pass? NO
I think Wheeler tends to thrive more when he comes in to begin an inning
Balfour usually performs well when coming in in that situation. I will give it to you that yes in the last couple of appearances he has been missing his zone, but overall I am still ok when he is brought in there. Is he as good as his LY? No. Is he as bad as his last 2 app? No.
Need a lineup? No problem...just give me paper, pen, scissors, a hat, and a blindfold
both are better when starting an inning
however Joe feels it necessary to keep his pitcher in long enough to leave inherited runners on for the pen.
I was happy to see him bring in the chiller in the 8th though
At least give him that
Need a lineup? No problem...just give me paper, pen, scissors, a hat, and a blindfold
well lets see
first even though Boston is playing t-ball to end the 6th and start the 7th with Matt Garza while he is well over 100 pitches Joe leaves him in. Than in the 7th when Joe finally goes to the pen with the tying run on base and the heart of the Boston order coming up he decides to go with a guy who (luck or w/e) is allowing opponents to hit over .400 against him in a situation with two outs and a DP isn’t needed. (Paging Dan Wheeler or Lance Cormier pt 1). Than in the 8th inning instead of going with one of the 3 top bullpen arms (Cormier, Wheeler, Howell) Joe dances around with Choate, Balfour, Springer before finally turning to JP with the bases loaded. Than after JP gets out even though he gave up the run (gets the 2 K’s) Joe brings him back out for the 9th (which I said going into the inning I don’t care if Howell, Cormier, or Wheeler start the inning b/c JP is our best pitcher and I’m confident in him in the 9th but also bringing in Cormier or Wheels with a 3 run lead I’m confident in + JP would be available tomorrow. ). So Joe brings JP back out but than after an out and a walk he than decides to pull him for Wheeler?WTF Wheeler is good enough for the 9th but wasn’t good enough to start the 8th.
that is just the bullpen, I also was pissed that he didn’t use Perez to run for Pena. While it didn’t end up mattering b/c Burrell got a hit to the gap but had that hit been right at someone in the outfield, Pena prolly doesn’t score. Had a flyball been hit, Pena prolly isn’t able to tag-up. I know bringing Aybar in defensively would have been a downgrade from Pena but scoring the run should have been #1 priority. I will give him credit for at least putting Perez in to run for Burrell, even though that didn’t end up mattering either.
one more note, did Aki get hurt. B/C as soon as I was applauding Maddon for inserting Gross in RF I noticed he took Aki out. While Aki hasn’t been as good with the glove this year I still trust him over Zo, who had been playing OF all game.
excellent post
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
Wait a sec... JP let ANOTHER run score on a wild pitch?
I have to say, looking at him and his mechanics—I’m no coach—but he practically hits the deck after some of his pitches… are there any other pitchers who do that?
He's just gotta not spike the ball
He didn’t earlier this year, he might just be trying to hard
by Transplanted on Sep 2, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Was Youk safe in the 9th?
I think Raymondo was at the game doing the Cotton Eye Joe.
My only “complaint” was sending Garza back out.
Your source for replacement level commentary
Sending Garza out was fine
He just made a bad decision to throw a fastball 0-2, throwing almost anything else & you have a good chance @ the K
by Transplanted on Sep 2, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps
But I tend to agree with DBullsfan’s comments: Garza was at or over 100 pitches and Boston was making solid contact the previous inning. It just didn’t seem Garza had his best stuff going tonight; he was not getting his usual number of swinging strikes.
Your source for replacement level commentary
Heel down, not toe
It was obviously very close, but to me it looked like his heel was down in front of the bag and his toe was not on the bag when Pena caught the ball. Whew!
I have a feeling BJ is going to go on a tear
I was at the game and that was the best I have seen him hit the ball in awhile
Bring Your Z-Game!
That's about right.
His swing has looked like that a few times this season.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
He has all the talent in the world
I think he can and should be one of the best players in the league. It is just a matter of getting his mechanics in order.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
I know, everyone thinks Kevin Kennedy is a know nothing but
He mentioned last night that Henderson had been working with Upton on getting his front foot planted sooner in his stride. IMO, If he does that it negates the stupid hitch he has and all is well.
It remains incredible to me
that a site frequented by so many intelligent commentators and dedicated to reasoned argument should have so many posts asserting that a particular managerial move is undoubtedly wrong (or right).
It certainly makes sense to suggest alternatives and to support one or another as being preferable. It is certainly sensible to diagnose a pattern of moves and wonder at the thinking behind that particular pattern. But asserting that a move is wrong is quite different (and in my view more unjustified) from disagreeing with it, and a very far step from using such disagreement as a club to attack the manager.
To take one example, I disagree with the way Maddon uses the running game, both in individual cases and as a pattern. I think the Rays run into too many outs, and I think there is statistical evidence that a free-for-all running game is much overrated. (It is possible that the Rays actually are successful enough according to stats; I am not sure.) But I also know that Maddon himself has said he knows the research and insists that there are benefits nonetheless. I continue to be skeptical, but think I need to be modest enough to allow him some space on the issue.
Just because we are all managers when we watch games, and always know the proper thing to do no matter how far away we sit or how little we know about the particulars, it does not qualify us to be so certain that our alternative makes sense while the managerial one was irrational. At least begin by trying to find justifications for Maddon’s decisions, making a sincere effort to understand the thinking behind them or the reason for the pattern.
Otherwise, the analysis is on par with the kind that automatically assumes that trading Kazmir was purely due to cheapness or that Upton is lazy.
by bobr on Sep 2, 2009 11:31 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Okay on that note
I too find it perplexing that Maddon would send out a starter for an inning where his pitch count is high and/or he had been struggling to that point if he knows full well that if the first hitter gets on he will go to the bullpen. I feel as though if you are going to send a guy out you should give him a little more rope, else just bring in the pen in the first place.
Need a lineup? No problem...just give me paper, pen, scissors, a hat, and a blindfold
Nice Reply
I don’t get that either. I like Joe. In most cases, I think he does a fine job. Sometimes I disagree with a decision, and your comment was a point of contention for a lot of Ray fans.
Damn.
bob is chucking thunderspears all over the place. I’m turned on.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
I feel the same way, but you've put it more eloquently then I ever possibly could've.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
I tend to think managerial decisions as on a scale; so decisions aren't absolutes
I don’t think anybody thinks Joe consistently lands on the bottom end of that scale.
I don’t think anyone believes that Joe randomly decides to do things. He has reasons. Sometimes there are just better reasons for another course of action
The perfect example is his PR the past couple days. First he runs for Navi on a 3-2 counts with 2 outs while leaving him in for the first 2 outs and 3 balls and 2 strikes of the 3rd out. Then last night he leaves Pena in, but yanks PtB for Perez. I don’t see how anyone can truly say that those were the right moves. If Maddon was okay PR for Navi, then wouldn’t it have made sense doing it earlier in the inning? Why wait? Yes there are reasons not to PR, such as not having to go to your 2nd catcher. However Maddon did it anyways so the fact that they were running on the pitch overshadowed that aspect. So what was it? And with Pena. We all know the benefits of Pena in the game. They are tremendous. But how can you not make the winning run the absolute #1 priority in that instance. What argument do you have, or that Maddon could have, for not having Perez run? How can those benefits trump the additional probability of scoring the run with speed on the bases?
It seems that your argument is we cannot determine if managerial decisions were wrong because we are not the manager. If that is the angle we are going to take then how can any team properly value their coach/manager? In my opinion a coach/manager should be under constant evaluation to determine if there are better and more competent alternatives.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
I can't answer your questions without going back to each situation
and looking at as many variables as I can imagine. And frankly I am not prepared to do that now. On another site I went into lengthy examination of Maddon’s decision to pull Shields for Cormier in a game the Rays lost. The original poster was adamant in castigating Maddon. At first I simply was looking to understand why Maddon did it (because my initial reaction was also negative), but more and more came to the conclusion he did absolutely the right thing. I almost did the same thing here on a post I think you wrote about his use of the bullpen in a specific case, but was simply too exhausted to go through it again.
As for your Pena example, there is no way I would have wanted him to pinch run for Pena in that situation. I want his defense at 1B, and chances are most hits will score him from 2B anyway. And it does make sense once that run is in to pinch run for Burrell who is replaceable. Am I sure I am right? No. Perhaps your approach would be more advisable, but it is hardly a slam-dunk answer and definitely not an argument that Maddon managed the situation poorly.
But none of that is my essential point. What I was responding to here and on the other thread was what appeared to me a general condemnation of Maddon’s managerial skills based on different views of proper in game tactics. I do not argue that fans cannot evaluate a manager because we lack enough inside knowledge, but I do insist that not only are in game tactics close to meaningless as clues to managers’ skills, but that we should first try to consider the many available options and accept the possibility that many are reasonable. Perhaps, for example, in the Navarro example above, his decision was based on who was at bat in each case. I don’t know and am not asserting that as a reason, only suggesting there are possibilities that fans do not consider either out of ignorance of the many details in each case or because once we establish our premise all decisions are viewed through the prism of that perspective.
For example, I have probably known in advance that a manager’s decision was terrible 1000s of times. And I can probably recall 3 or 4 cases when my premonition (reasonable assessment?) was accurate. I have either forgotten the other 997+ times the results did not validate my view or can explain the dissonance by noting that the batter actually hit a screaming line drive right at a fielder or a fielder made a great play to save runs or the umpire unaccountably expanded his strike zone so the strikeout should have been ball 4 or whatever it takes to maintain my illusion of knowing better than the manager.
I have no problem with people arguing that a different decision would have been better. That is a large part of the fun of the game. But I do have a problem with assuming that such differences of opinion are the difference between right and wrong rather than different approaches or preferences. And I certainly object when such differences are used as grounds for dismissing a manager who just led a team to 97 victories and is following that up with another fine, if disappointing, year. I do not credit Maddon with all the success, although I do think that in tandem with the front office (because I think they work together like a Swiss watch) he is a large part of that success, but I do think he has earned our forebearance when things do not go as we hoped. Because we are frustrated by dashed hopes is no reason to find scapegoats, and particularly no reason to make lists of grievances against Maddon who has shown himself to be a creative, flexible and imaginative strategist.
by bobr on Sep 3, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Toronto sucks
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
so i went and saw basterds instead of sitting home watching them lose
i get home and my bro’s playin halo so i turn it to espn and i hear ‘the red sox tie it in the 8th’ and i quickly change the channel.
but then i think whatever and after 5 minutes decide to watch.
well, glad i did.
but this feels like a dying gasp of breath.
we’d better kick their ass tomorrow, and maybe i might believe
I can hear the old guy in that Monty Python Movie
“I’m not dead yet”
Seriously a good win for the Rays tonight – and there’s still reason for hope. Screw the skeptical rationality and whining – be fans and pull for your team! Clearly they’re not quitting; neither should you.
By the way – perhaps after all I’ve seen on here about all the games that have been lost that shouldn’t have been, you really have to look at this one as one for the other side of the ledger. And the Rays have had more than a few of those as well.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Sep 3, 2009 12:55 AM EDT reply actions
man, Hanna-Barbara is gonna sue somebody.

In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Sep 3, 2009 4:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Please tell me the Great Wazoo (sic) is not showing us the future of batting helmets.
"That's not baseball. Little numbers in a newspaper is...So-dookie, or whatever."
Let's win the series tomorrow!
Woot-woot! ON the upside the Rays clinched the Series win w/ yesterdays victory.
In the name of Shinji Mori, we shall win!
by thebaddancingraysfan on Sep 3, 2009 4:02 AM EDT reply actions

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