Should the Rays Think About Acquiring Felix Hernandez?
(Note: if you're looking for a definitive answer here, I don't have one. I didn't crunch the numbers or anything like that, this is basically a "thought" piece more than a serious analysis or suggestion. Keep this in mind.)
The conquest for "an ace" has lead many teams astray. Recent history gives us the 2008 Mariners as a team that ignored wounds elsewhere on the roster in favor of shipping an assortment of young talent to another club for a marketable frontline pitcher. The trade is poor even if Erik Bedard pitched at a high caliber level. Any team penciling Jose Vidro in at DH should probably focus on other aspects of their ballclub first.
Why then is the possibility of Felix Hernandez being acquirable so engaging? Because the Rays have few other holes to fill. Look at the roster and find holes. You find catcher and bullpen. Otherwise, the collection is about as solid as you can find. The Rays' window is open and should be open for at least another few years, but flags do fly forever and there are no guarantees that most if any of the prospects work out.
Acquiring Hernandez is more or less a rental. He's going to A) desire big money when his free agency clock hits zero and B) receive big money when his team control expires after the 2011 season. Can the Mariners afford him? Probably. Handing out big deals to pitchers has burned that organization enough that you can't blame the new regime - full of competent and intelligent people - to consider cashing in the Hernandez chips early if a home run offer is made.
Honestly, I'd put the odds of the Rays acquiring Felix on the low end of the pole.
The package in return would scalp the system, and cause a shifting dynamic in the competitive window. Imagine an actual window. Okay, now adjust that window on a five-year scale, where every few inches represent a season. Right now, the Rays have a nice collection of talent waves, so much so that you would figure they can field some pretty nice teams over the next three-to-four years. After which things become a little murky at this point in time. This means the window is more than halfway open. Okay now imagine the Rays trading three of their seven best prospects and someone like Jeff Niemann or Matt Garza to the Mariners.
The window doesn't slam closed or anything, but you put an emphasis on the next two seasons; after which Felix leaves, you get draft picks, and you are without the services of Desmond Jennings or Wade Davis or Jeremy Hellickson, whomever. On the flip side you get Felix, one of the best pitchers in the A.L. this season and probably the runner-up for the Cy Young award. He's always had the potential to be a special pitcher, and if this season is just a sign of things to come there could be some historic seasons thrown in along the way.
Depending on your perspective - long-run versus short-run or "win now" versus "win now and later" - you can make the case for or against acquiring Hernandez. I can guess how much it would take to acquire him, but I would expect - and I suppose that sort of ruins the concept of having this on a wishlist*, but whatever - Andrew Friedman calls Jack Zduriencik at least a few times about his prized ace.
Isuppose I'm just lukewarm on "going all in". I enjoy and desire winning, but at the same time you're talking about putting a ton of pressure on everything going just right within these next 324 regular season games while sacrificing a lot of contributors in the 324 that follow.
Some other thinking points to consider:
1. The inherent injury risk with all pitchers.
2. The value of marginal wins.
3. The value of keeping him away from Boston/New York.
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*Also: isn't saying "Well, I would like Felix, but I'm sort of hesitant to part with what it would take to acquire him" going against everything that a wishlist constitutes? I really should've chosen a better name for this series**.
**Seriously. This is stupid.
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34 comments
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Comments
The Mariners are one of the wealthiest teams in baseball
They have no reason to trade the King. Their recent history damaged their ability to draw fans, but a trading away of the best pitching prospect the organization has ever had (and probably the 3rd best to this point in his career) would further hurt that.
I guess that’s a few words to say “Felix isn’t for sale”
by Sounder At Heart on Sep 24, 2009 12:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe I said he was for sale.
But the M’s would be foolish to consider someone completely untouchable.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 24, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade value calculator has him worth a surplus 18.7M at 5 WAR for final 2 years of arb and type A status
That would basically be something like Sean Rod and Brignac. It will take a lot more than that. You will have to over-pay and know that going in. I don’t see our FO putting themselves in that position. That said IT’S FELIX FREAKING HERNANDEZ!
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by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 24, 2009 12:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That also count's his arb awards as 13.6 and 18.3 million, he won't get anywhere near that, but if we say he gets
8 and 11, that’s another that’s another roughly 13M of surplus. So now we are at 32M which might be something like Briggy, Davis, and Hellboy. That’s a ton of on the verge talent.
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by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 24, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going back and forth
The joys of being your own boss, I suppose
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by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 24, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
xFIP for 2009 for Felix is 3.61 vs .3.19 FIP
He’s a stud for sure. But I just wonder how inflated his perceived value would be due to his ballpark. See Aardsma yesterday
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by FreeZorilla on Sep 24, 2009 12:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
xFIP isn't nearly as relevant for King Felix and can't be applied to everyone.
It’s a tool, but not a particularly useful one when considering Felix I don’t believe. Felix is a ground ball pitcher with elite stuff. He’s not going to give up home runs at a league average rate most likely.
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Sep 24, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you play in Seattle it should be considered
14 Qualified Pitchers with 50%+ ground ball rates
Avg HR/FB is 8.75%
Felix is 7.6% in a pitchers park
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by FreeZorilla on Sep 24, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Felix's stuff should be considered too.
Maybe Zack Grenkie has better pure stuff, but he’s got at worst Top-3 stuff in all of baseball. He’s harder to hit than most.
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Sep 24, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
I’m merely stating that there would be a statistical decline in another park. Seattle pitchers are overrated no matter how good they are based on park. You can even be the best and be overrated.
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by FreeZorilla on Sep 24, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot depends on the ability to sign Crawford to a long term deal
If we can resign Crawford, still having BJ and Joyce, trading Desmond Jennings isn’t a horrible idea although he is one of the top 10-15 prospects in all of baseball and maybe even higher than that. If a package of Jennings, Niemann, Lobstein and a throw in arm like Sonny/Talbot gets it done than it would be tough to not want to take in Felix.
Jennings, Hellickson, Davis, Brignac, Beckham, Moore > Your top 3
by Dbullsfan on Sep 24, 2009 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I bet they'd want a frontline SP prospect
One of Davis/Hellickson/Moore
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Sep 24, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we aquired Felix
How fast would LL boycott this site?
2009 Rays Baseball: Welp.....we'll try again in 2010
2009 FSU Football: CP7 FOR HEISMAN
Be a TRUE Seminole: http://www.seminoles.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/071509aab.html
by JMB on Sep 24, 2009 2:06 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't do it
Our pitching should be very strong without having to give up everything it would take to add Felix.
Where I think we should think about “going all in” would be sometime in July when we’re able to see what our strengths/weaknesses are – and also what the Yanks/Sox are doing. For example, I still believe we should have done whatever it took to add Jason Bay last year. He was available, and we had a definite need.
Garza, Shields, Price, Davis, Jeff “I can’t easily spell his last name” Niemenn should be a very solid rotation – and in individual matchups, I feel comfortable with Garza/Shields against anyone in the league.
by TallMatt on Sep 24, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If they seriously consider getting King Felix, then they should seriously consider getting Jonathan Papelbon instead
We have plenty of good starting pitching. What we need is a closer.
"That's not baseball. Little numbers in a newspaper is...So-dookie, or whatever."
by Orlando Rays on Sep 24, 2009 2:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
NO.
Closers are far less valuable than starters and far easier to find/create. Plus, Papelbon’s performance has tailed off this year and there are injury concerns. Trading much of value for him would run counter to what got the Rays where they are.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 24, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Woosh
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Sep 24, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't really apply here
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 24, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm all for it
So long as Rick Peterson is our pitching coach and not Hickey, who would likely cause Hernandez to lose his mechanics.
I really don’t hate Hickey, and I don’t have any real way of telling how players respond (Niemann had a terrific year, for example) to coaching, but I would imagine if Peterson could fix something Hickey couldn’t, perhaps Peterson is better suited for the job.
by behn on Sep 24, 2009 3:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What about Xavier Hernandez as our pitching coach next season?
Jennings, Hellickson, Davis, Brignac, Beckham, Moore > Your top 3
by Dbullsfan on Sep 24, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a feeling about Felix
He is gonna do his thing. He knows how to dominate and I don’t think he will let Hickey fuck him up
1. James Shields 2. Wade Davis 3. Matt Garza 4. David Price 5. Jeff Niemann
by joeybw on Sep 24, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice to see you alive and saying one of the most impossible to prove things ever
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by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 24, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Felix would cost a king's ransom
But if a Niemann/Brignac/Barnese deal is possible, I’d say do it.
If the Rays have to give up two of Niemann/Davis/Hellickson/Moore, then I say forget it. That’s too many years of cheap labor at a premium position.
Two out of 3 could be inserted into the major league team, which makes any trade look better when fans can see immediate dividends.
If the Rays can pull off a Felix deal without giving up Davis/Jennings/Hellickson, then I think it’s an awesome deal. And still not one where Seattle gets screwed, either.
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 24, 2009 6:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I'd say that they'd want either Davis or Hellboy in a deal
along with Jennings
2009 Rays Baseball: Welp.....we'll try again in 2010
2009 FSU Football: CP7 FOR HEISMAN
Be a TRUE Seminole: http://www.seminoles.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/071509aab.html
by JMB on Sep 24, 2009 8:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
This offseason represents a real crossroads for this FO
A lot of different ways they could go. They could trade CC and Bartlett, since they have Jennings/Joyce and Brignac waiting in the wings, and use the saved money on other needs of the team (like the bullpen).
They could try to retool by swapping out different pieces like Burrell for Bradley, and Doumit for and hit the bargain bin for relievers.
They could swing for the fences with a Hernandez and resign CC and give themselves a 2 year window with their current squad.
Or they could do a mix of it all. The Rays will be opportunistic, and if a big name pitcher is available, I could see them trying to make it work.
I do hope, however, the Rays save some of their money for the February bargain bin. This will be another bad year for the non top tier free agents, and teams like the Rays need to capitalize.
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 24, 2009 6:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Royals are stupid
Grienke for Barlett.
I was trying to find a low OBP 1B in our system, but not much was coming up. Somehow, it’s encouraging to me that our team has no player the Royals would really find attractive…
"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I toss one that ain't never been seen by this generation." - Satchel Paige
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 24, 2009 9:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Greinke said how the trop was a joke
would be funny to hear him say how he loves it there
1. James Shields 2. Wade Davis 3. Matt Garza 4. David Price 5. Jeff Niemann
by joeybw on Sep 25, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn't have to say a word to be my ace, he can put on cigarettes on infants if he brought his game this way every 5 days
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by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 25, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
first on = out
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by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 25, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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