The Baseball Caste System
Bear with me.
I have a theory.
Every person possesses a desire to be great at something. Call it the history or bust gene. Everyone desires to be remembered well beyond their stay. This transcends religion, culture, so on. You want to be known for something, ideally as a talented or great individual. People possess the desire for appreciation, celebration, and declaration.
You hear about this trait so often in sports that it loses all realism. This supposedly rarified drive to be great exists only in certain players. Usually those with physical anomalies. He's too short, too slow, too fat, and too ugly. The way some talk about it makes you think it should be a quality you should seek intently, poaching the possessors like elephant tusks.
You see, in baseball, you're one of three categories. The major two sects being the hard-workers and the no-gooders. I want to address the hard-workers first. The royal class of the groupings.
It just so happens the Rays are playing the Red Sox while I write this and they feature a handful of players who fit the bill. Dustin Pedroia is the most obvious. He's short. We all know this. Apparently he has the cockiness of a college kid and the self-importance of ... well a tiny person. This means absolutely nothing to most people. So what if he's short? If he can hit the baseball, let him play. Well it seems to mean everything to the people who cover the game. This isn't a self-esteem issue - although I'm sure little kids were and still are mean to Pedroia - but by golly Pedroia has apparently used it as steam. This is why he's great, because his disability causes him to aspire for greatness.
Kevin Youkilis has god-awful facial hair, a smirk-inspiring batting stance, and thunder thighs that detract from his mobility. He attended the University of Cincinnati. After drawing a million walks and seeing Billy Beane swoon over him, Youkilis became an everyday player in the majors. Because Youkilis had to step on a college campus it means he is an underdog. That's how it works in baseball. The extremely talented kids never reach college and if they do it's because they want more money. Everyone ignores his phenomenal eye and obvious baseball skills in favor of the lunch-pail, blue-collar, everyday man. The media has made Youkilis into a politician.
So we have Snoopy and Kevin the Baseball Player here, and they have this burning passion to win and succeed. How are we supposed to know this? We aren't. The trait just appears in random players across the league - although peculiarly enough seem to collect in large TV markets - only manifesting itself because so and so announced it during the game.
I can safely say I've heard about a hundred different baseball players referred to with this rare performance enhancing distinction. Which makes me wonder how common is this? Are there pills you can pop? Syringes to load? How widespread is this damn epidemic?
None of that is needed. It's all natural baby. Everyone I've talked to about this unclenching desire for long-standing recognition has experienced it. Some of these guys have played high school ball and maybe some college ball, but there aren't any professional players. So if normal people possess this then why is it glorified in professional baseball players?
I loathe people who question a player's effort. Most of you work or go to school a good portion of the year. How many times can you say you've went 95% of your days without a careless mistake or without exhibiting some forgetfulness? Put your hand down in the back, no need to lie. Everyone has bad days. Baseball players are part of everyone. Basic SAT exercise here: therefore baseball players have bad days.
Two players can have identically poor days, but we'll still lionize one the next day while cannibalizing the other based purely off the perception of effort. Derek Jeter dives for a ball three feet to his right and it's a difficult play. Jimmy Rollins boots a ball after running six feet and people question where his head is. The difference between the two is perception. Jeter has "it", the scar of victors. Rollins does not. Ignore his World Series ring and vindicated guarantees.
There is no way to logically believe we can parse through all the players and separate those who have "it". Do some players long for fame or a certain hall while others want the money more? Sure but it's still a hope for history. Outside of baseball statistics there is no way to quantify greatness. Is it your bank account? Number of friends? The amount of sexual partners? Cars you own? Or is it an indescribable feeling of accomplishment after thirty-something years of work.
Nobody tries explaining what that feeling is despite damn well knowing. Being alive and aware means you know it; the pang in the stomach followed by a sensation of driving numbness. At least that's what I know the feeling as, maybe it's a tumor or ulcer. It's overpowering in its persistence. For most of these players I assume this kept them going after that 0-6 night in Double-A. The one where mom said it would be okay if you moved back into your room if you wanted to move on.
I was told Kevin the Baseball Player was on Jim Rome today complaining about how fans don't know what players go through; that being his reasoning as to why criticizing player's performances should be taboo. Yeah, except we do know what you go through. Adding to his everyman image he flares out in frustration, his situation as a baseball player is very isolated and unique. He's been crafted to believe this, just like everyone else.
What's my purpose in writing this? What is my desired reaction, goal, why in the bloody hell am I writing another emo piece on here? Because I'm tired of fans questioning effort and feel they should know better.
Now let's address the no-gooders. Call them pagans for not buying into this cliqued religion or simply being unaware of its existence.
B.J. Upton is probably the least well-regarded player when it comes to benefit of the doubt given concerning his effort on the field. Upton is about the closest thing the Rays have to a true antihero. He goes against every sense of "rightness" they teach you in little leagues. He doesn't appear to run super duper hard, some could call him a bonafide showoff when it comes to basket catches, and he strikes out a ton in an area still stricken with K stigma. Oh and he uses rap songs about marijuana and oral sex as his ditty music, but I suppose that's implied by "rap songs".
I write about him a lot and people usually ask me why I like him so much. The conversation goes like this:
Them: Why do you like him so much?
Me: Well, I got into advanced offensive statistics in 2007 and I realized he was really good.
Them: Okay, but last year?
Me: Well, I got into advanced defensive statistics in 2008 and I realized he was really good.
Them: ...And this year?
Me: Well, uh.
The underdog aspect is compelling to a ton of people. I'm hardly original in rooting for the underrated but I never claimed to be. Upton is the lead hound in the pack and boy people love wondering how much he likes baseball.
Upton became a major league baseball player at age 19 and a regular before he could legally drink. His minor league debut came when he was 18 years, one month old. That means he's been involved in baseball essentially since he was born.
The burnout rate for accountants is something like five-to-seven years. The mental drain and repetition makes it a temporary career. Baseball is more of a physical burnout, but certainly the mental aspects are underplayed. We've seen about a half dozen players claim depression this season. It's not a new disease; players have dealt with stuff like this for years while keeping things low. Let me digress on this point and get back to Upton.
Imagine practicing an instrument nearly every single day since you were 12-years-old. For more than half your life, all you know is playing that instrument. You play some concerts, some shows at a club, and as it turns out, people like you. The club starts paying you upfront and things look great, but you've been doing this for 12+ years. What drives you to continue? It wasn't the money until recently; it isn't the fame because you have little. Is it the desire to master the craft?
Upton has put in more hours at a baseball field than most of us will our entire lives. By suggesting that he doesn't care about the game you're suggesting that most of his life is irrelevant to him. I suppose it could be true, but why the hell would he continue to play if he hated and was disinterested by it?
Further, we know through statistical means that he's pretty good. Either he's the most talented man on Earth, capable of out producing thousands at half-effort, or he really does care. Those are the two options. You can choose one or the other, argue semantics, whatever. Point is, either he's ridiculously good without any effort or he puts forth effort and gets result.
I'm sure when Upton was five-years-old he had zero desire to become a great baseball player. Well okay, he probably had the adolescent career equivalent of lust. Everyone wants to be a great baseball player. Most of us realize that isn't happening rather quickly. For Upton this was a realistic opportunity. His desire went from caterpillar to a swarm of butterflies over the years.
Does Upton want to be great? He's human. I think it would be silly to assume otherwise. What person doesn't want to be at the top of their craft?
August marked my third year on this site. Honestly, I was just looking for writing experience, nothing serious. It blossomed into a full time gig, per se. I should be horrified at the amount of time I've put into this place but instead all I want to do is focus on getting better. This entire piece is an effort to improve. I know my limitations as a writer. I can announce that I'd like to be considered good and it comes off arrogant every time.
I consider myself competitive. There aren't millions of dollars on the line for me though; there isn't a life of glamour and fame based off what I do here or elsewhere. This is pretty much to appease myself. There's a fair chance I'm far off the base with this theory. I don't claim to be a psychologist or humanist. My only experience with human nature is being. With that being said there is no flipping way I would keep coming back every single day if I felt like there was nothing left for me to prove to myself.
Back to Upton. There's a pretty good chance he doesn't give a damn about what you, I, or anyone says. That's not uncommon in professional anything, especially sports. We don't know these players and never will, but we spend so much time pondering them that eventually we create private personas for them. Expectations so to speak. We do this for people we know as well. What Upton portrays on the field -- that seemingly careless attitude -- people take that and apply it to him twofold. Ben Zobrist runs out everything and gets dirty. People look at him and figure he's probably a good guy in real life. Now they also have the whole religious freak aspect to act as an alibi, but my point is people create standards and imagery based purely off guys playing baseball.
This leads to more conversations. These usually happen at the ballpark between friends or sometimes complete strangers. They go something like this:
Them: "Pat Burrell seems like a snob."
Me: "How would you know?"
Them: "Eh, he just acts like one."
Me: "Huh?"
Them: "During the games. Head down, shrugging his shoulders, white gloves."
Me: "Isn't that called professionalism?"
Them: "Don't use big words. He smirks too."
Me: "And?"
Them: "Forget it."
We have multiple dynamics at work when it comes to assessing baseball players based purely off their play.
There's a collection of players assigned a mysterious attribute that makes them want it more than others. Yet this is almost definitely baloney because every human being desires something just as much, that "something" simply possesses no definitive qualities on a case-by-case basis.
Then we have players who don't seem to care or respect the game. These guys have their on the field actions taken to the nth degree despite putting in just as many hours as the first grouping of players if not more. Truth be told, these players are almost always more talented than their hyped-up brethren.
There's another sect of baseball players who don't fall into either circle of the Venn diagram. Let's call these players lucky. While they don't get their hard work and dedication trumpeted, they can also be occasional boneheads without hearing about it non-stop. Most ballplayers fall into this group; they are largely met with apathy or general acceptance.
Human nature leads us to storm these usually misleading identities up and classify players based on things we know absolutely nothing about. Does anyone's opinion of Evan Longoria change if we know he spends less time watching film or lifting weights than Dioner Navarro? At the same time, does anyone's opinion of Navarro change if we know he does more prep and strength work than Longoria?
We don't need these generalizations based on who gives the best quotes or gets their jerseys dirty to actually enjoy baseball and understand the players better. Buying into these illusions created by others simply hurts the understanding of players if nothing else.
The thing I want people to take from this isn't that B.J. Upton cares or that elf jokes are easy to make. It's that we talk about major league baseball players a lot without ever giving them proper credit. Active players are, by and large, devoted to their careers through retirement, and even then you still see retired announcers, coaches, and scouts. It takes a special kind of deviant to put in those kinds of hours without going insane. We get a ton of entertainment value from the committed; don't give them disincentive by feeling the need to mold them.
14 recs |
617 comments
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Comments
Wow, this is long
I gotta read this later.
WHOO, LUKE! LUKE! LUKE!
by Some other guy who does not care on Sep 3, 2009 12:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's a lot of words.
When is it coming out on Kindle?
by floridaroar on Sep 3, 2009 12:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is a good post
otherwise, Nice one R.J.
WHOO, LUKE! LUKE! LUKE!
by Some other guy who does not care on Sep 3, 2009 12:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice post
rec’d and retweeted
kinda hard to see touted-for-years B.J. Upton as an “underdog,” but I get it.
Obviously, he hasn’t produced at the level expected yet (although he’s hardly been a horrible “bust” as many idiots proclaim), but I have many of the same experiences when discussing Alex Gordon with people. Even Joe Posnanski falls into deducing Gordon’s personal worth from his slumped shoulders, smirk, etc. I guess Gordon should have mentioned BABIP and been a middling AAA reliever if he wanted to get on Poz’s good side.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Sep 3, 2009 12:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought about typing this.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a question that is semi-related
Longoria is good, I think we would all agree. Do we know anything about his work ethic? All I hear is “He parties too much” or “drinks too much”. Just curious. Some players take advantage of God-given talent, others rest on it in my opinion, in any sport, in any walk of life. Just wondering how he fits in.
You’re correct though. The “gritty, hustling, everyman” players are idolized by the talking heads. They “play the game the right way”.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pretty sure that Evan is a first in/last out kind of guy.
Thats what I hear.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is probably having his wake up bloody Mary right now
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. Like raging fools.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go to a few games
First guy on the field for warmups/bp is Evan Longoria. Every game. Followed closely by Pat Burrell.
I went to the 3 game sweep in Texas this year and even in the heat he was the first guy out there. Ive also spoken to the rays head of event coordinator and he confirmed that hes the hardest worker on the team.
by Jun on Sep 3, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For a 7 PM game
Evan typically arrives between 12-12:30. Almost all of that time is spent in serious workouts. He and Pat Burrell are the first ones to show up at the stadium, and generally the first ones on the field for practice.
by sstamour on Sep 3, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps, rather than being a partier...
he has no life.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Sep 3, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or when he does go out he enjoys the shit out of it
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 4, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wonderful post.
Your writing keeps getting better and better.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Written like someone who's never actually worked in a group setting
I hate to say it, but I just flat out disagree with most of this. Maybe it’s not a measurable, but different people most certainly have different motivation levels, and on top of that different people have different capabilities to actually make their desires come to reality.
Sure, everyone WANTS to be good, but not everyone actually wants to put in the effort to do so, and quite a few people who do want to put in the effort still fail because they don’t allocate their resources in the right manner.
Overachievers and underachievers are very, very real, and I don’t think it’s all that hard to measure in baseball compared to other occupations. You can look at a player’s tools (all of them, not just the 5 main ones), and try to predict how good they should be based on their tools and skills. If they fail to utilize those tools to be the best they can be, then it’s a pretty safe assumption that they’re either (a) not working as hard as they could be working or (b) are working hard on the wrong things.
Sorry to come off sounding like a troll here, but unless I completely missed the point of this piece, I pretty strongly disagree.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
by Brickhaus on Sep 3, 2009 12:25 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree to a degree about differing effort/talent levels.
The issue at hand, though, is more the perception factor. Good players who seem to try hard are trumpeted by the media. Good players who seem to do things easily are frequently denounced. Take Manny Ramirez for example. According to all reports he’s an extremely hard-wroker; he doesn’t, however, do all the “little things” that guys like Rick Sutcliff love to lionize. As such, he is victimized for most anything.
I think this stems from a notion in sports that the guys that are the best try the hardest. This is a Horatio Alger story. It is perpetrated by journalist who prefer the narrative of the sport. The hero/nemesis angle is pounded into the ground in sports. Furthermore, ex-ballplayers are more prevalent than ever in the sports media. They gain a lot by touting the virtues of hard work on the ball field. As such, this cycle gets worse and worse every year. throw in the 24-hour news coverage, and it gets insufferable.
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you as well as some of what RJ said
Firstly I totally agree with RJ that people seem to make judgments on folks based upon attributes or characteristics that are irrelevant. Things like being short or being bald with weird facial hair or with a funky batting stance doesn’t make someone gritty or scrappy. We can go up and down the line with players getting bashed or praised based upon characteristics that truly tell us nothing.
However I do agree with you and disagree with RJ about the be all you can be thing. Everyone has different goals, motivations, and dreams. Although it’s safe to say all MLB players want to be great ballplayers. Wanting it and doing all you can are two different things. Two players could both go to bed at night wanting to be the next babe ruth but
the amount of time they put in can vary wildly. Now I have no idea how much time BJ, Youk, Dustin, and Longo put in. The best one may be the biggest slacker or vice versa. I have no idea.
On a personal note I don’t care how much time a player puts in as long as the org knows what they are getting into. Not all people or players will do what it takes to maximize their potential. As long as Friedman knows what production to expect then I’m ok, even if it isn’t their max potential
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
This
Agree completely.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You did completely miss the point.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me what it was then…
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
by Brickhaus on Sep 3, 2009 1:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn't about people having the same work ethic.
In the most simple way it’s saying that it’s incredibly retarded to say any player doesn’t care about baseball given the requirement and dedication needed to reach this point. Some work harder, that’s not my point, 99.9% of the players love baseball. Further, just like anyone else in any path of life, they aspire for notoriety and success.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This article made a lot of good points . . .
However, BJ Upton is a poor example to use in support of them.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's your opinion.
I’m not claiming any of this as fact as I restated multiple times.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely agree
We’re both simply stating opinions.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not likely
Not if it’s RJ and me and the topic is BJ Upton.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For some reason, I read this entire article with a Dr. Cox-ian type voice in my head...
Sign lady must die.
Be the first on your block to own DRB Gear.
by EminenceFront on Sep 3, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Scrubs FTW
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are a few major things going against Upton...
1)There were a couple non-hustle events last season that fans and the media latched onto. With his gliding style of running, this provides fodder for the pundits.
2)He strikes out a ton. Unfortunately people hate strikeouts…and when a guy is struggling, people hate it even more.
3)People dont know how to measure defensive ability like they can offensive.
4)He was unfairly grouped together with Dukes and Delmon.
I’m sure there’s more, but I’m in a rush and that’s off the top of my head
by td32 on Sep 3, 2009 12:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He's black.
He’s young.
He’s a “bonus baby.”
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People here do
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Mobile comments sometimes post before I'm done
Strange…
Either way BJ did get benched. It takes time to rebuild a reputation.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Does it have anything to do (seriously) with him being black?
I dont know many black guys that are lauded for hustling or many white guys that are called lazy. Im not trying to get into a race debate, but that seems to be the issue. I know we joke around with it at BJ’s expense, but seems to be true across the board
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 1:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
JD Drew has never been accused of not hustling in Boston...
ManRam on the other hand….
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've heard him called a jake before...
haven’t really heard anything about him being criticized in Boston for not hustling. Could be wrong.
I was really making a comment about how racist Boston is.
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Asking seriously becuase it seems like you would have to follow the team on a local level...
is it anywhere near the level of flack that Ramirez took?
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
He also isn’t as influential of a player. I think the Man Ram stuff had a lot to do with the Boston FO. They have a past of getting their cronies in the media to bash guys when they are on there way out.
JD Drew has carried this stigma pretty much everywhere though.
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Riiiiiiiight
That’s why they loathe David Ortiz and Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce and loathed Pedro Martinez and Robert Parish. Or wait, maybe all of them were huge fan favorites.
Racism fail.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why they were so happy to have their white kids go to school with black kids...
and they sure were quick to have blacks on the Red Sox.
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh wait
I thought you were contrasting Boston with other parts of the USA and suggesting Boston was particularly racist. I didn’t realize that all you meant was that Boston was typical of the rest of the USA in that regard. Logic FAIL
And Tom Yawkey is why they waited so long (and passed up Mays). He was from the South. Go figure.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
Boston was still fight desegregation 17 years after Brown v Board. Even the south had been on the program for years before.
What part of Detroit (Yawkey’s birthplace) is considered the South?
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you really this obtuse?
People never move? You honestly want to advance the position that Tom Yawkey was not a Southerner?
And if you think Boston’s fight against segregation was WORSE than the South, you’re a whole new flavor of stupid.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They didn't call them Jim Boston Laws for nothing
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where was he from in the South then?
The South was bad, but I’m not sure that having RIOTS nearly 20 years after everyone else was making an attempt at complying isn’t worse.
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
South Carolina
Yawkey lived there on a plantation. I think near Charleston. Donated much of his land to the State of South Carolina for conservation.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was vacation property...
he was raised in Detroit, went to boarding school in New York, and college at Yale.
If you can’t admit that the city of Boston has a history of being a very racist town, despite empirical evidence of that being true then there isn’t much else to say.
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And now we've come full circle
I admit it: the City of Boston has a history of being a very racist town. Just like the rest of the USA.
There is empirical evidence of great tolerance (abolition movement, e.g.) and empirical evidence of great racism (Bill Russell, the busing riots, e.g.).
And it wasn’t vacation property. You’ve got the educational background correct — how did you gloss over the rest of the story? Tom married him a Southern girl and moved there. He surrounded himself with Southern cronies. The leadership of the Red Sox under Yawkey was derisively referred to as “Crony Island.” He wasn’t born Southern; he CHOSE to be (and act) Southern. In many ways that is worse.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing wrong with being southern.
Southern doesn’t equal racist. Racist northerners are just as prevalent my friend.
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
They certainly exist, in numbers fairly comparable to the rest of the nation, but having lived in both places I cannot agree with “just as prevalent.”
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree to disagree then.
Yawkey was racist before he “became southern,” I bet.
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn't now what he's talking about..
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello pot, this is kettle.
Good day now.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty sure Jean Yawkey is from New York City...
don’t confuse being Southern with being racist. You blamed the racism of the Sox on their southern owner, when he wasn’t a Southerner. Joe Cronin was from San Francisco, Eddie Collins was from New York City. Yawkey had homes in many parts of the country including a plantation style home that he bought after he could claim his inheritance when he was in his 30’s. You are denying the racism of a town, and trying to excuse it by blaming it on the racism of an owner using factual inaccuracies.
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strangest thing, isn't it?
The boy from Detroit, prep school and Yale; the fashion model from Long Island; and yet somehow they marry and spend large portions of their life together in South Carolina.
I’m not confusing being Southern with being racist. I will posit there is a significant correlation between the two, even today, and even more so back in the time frame at issue. And, as discussed above, IMO Southern racism > Northern racism, although both were far greater than what is acceptable.
We’ll never convince each other, it seems. Care to move on, or would you rather continue the debate?
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Southern Racism > Northern Racism?
That’s the crux of your argument? I was wrong his uncle bought the land in 1911. He and wintered in the South, not uncommon for the wealthy at the time. You cannot excuse racism with the “Yeah well everyone else was doing it” argument.
btw, http://www.yawkeyfoundation.org/thomas_yawkey.html
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently you choose to continue by misrepresenting.
Excuse racism? Everyone else was doing it? You have a serious reading comprehension problem, my friend. Apparently “both were far greater than what is acceptable” is too complex a thought for you to handle.
My point, which are you free to disagree with but not to distort, is that racism was more prevalent and worse in the South than in the North, especially during the time frame at issue. As I have stated repeatedly, this is my opinion, not provable or disprovable by any statistic. Which is why I offered to agree to disagree and move along.
That’s when you decided you needed to distort my argument in order to “win.” Sad.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not about winning anything...
I see that you’re new around, so I will say that you can’t just throw bullshit out and expect people not to call you on it. You wrote multiple factual inaccuracies. When called out on those you attacked the intelligence of the person that corrected you. It appears that you have a strong affinity for Boston and that’s all well and good. Boston, however, is a notoriously racist city. The people of Boston rioted over deseg to a level unlike anything seen in the South, more than 15 years after the South had gone through deseg. The Red Sox were the last team to integrate, you excused this as being the fault of a Racist Southern Owner (factual inaccuracy). You said their front office was from the South (factual inaccuracy). You said that Jean (Hollander) Yawkey was from the South (factual inaccuracy). You excused Yawkey’s racism because he was a Southerner. You actually tried to pass off the argument that Northern Racism is not as bad or even somehow better than Southern Racism. Like I said I know you are new but if you spout bullshit, people are going to call you on it.
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
After moving back up north, I can say I've heard the N word more
in the last 3 months than the entire time I live in Orlando (whatever that is worth)
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maryland
Was more racist than here. Fo sho!
by terp12 on Sep 3, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man I thought the Blacks in Baltimore were bad
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, my family is from Maryland...
that place is the South one you get over the bridge.
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was just a quote from Eastbound and Down
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I'm familiar with the quote...
coming from a guy with a Powers 55 Rays jersey, which leads me to a question. My company is giving away a car on the field during the last game of the season. My dad (the owner of the business) will be on the field for the presentation, and I will be on the field before the game. Should I: a) where the jersey myself during warmups. b) Have my dad where it during the car giveaway. c) BOTH
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both
Also can I borrow that for Halloween, I was already
planning on going as Kenny Powers, would be sweet
to have the jersey. Mostly I just want to scream
You’re Fucking Out while wearing tight pants and a sweet wig
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wig?
What do you think I’ve been growing my fucking hair out for the last 4 months?
I’m actually thinking either KP or Alan from the Hangover. Either way I’ll be wearing tight white pants.
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brooklyn Park
I wouldn’t walk there, and I’m a white guy with a tan.
by terp12 on Sep 3, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe (like most carpet baggers)...
they liked the weather. Maybe they didn’t go south for the racism, which may be the dumbest thing pI’ve seen on this pretty inane thread.
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it's because I'm a "Southerner"
but I’d say the prevelence of racism is fairly similar, sadly. Racist southerners are just more overt in their expressions of hate.
Your source for replacement level commentary
by RATW on Sep 3, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ask the winningest basketball player ever how loved he felt...
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Robert Parish beat his wife
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also
Would have enjoyed hanging out with JP.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JP needs a new friend
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wonder how much of Drew's bad rep is from "Three Nights in August"
I rented that on CD from Cracker Barrel when I was on a trip recently, and Buzz goes on and on about Drew being “too talented for his own good” and lazy.
by ChiBurbRaysFan on Sep 3, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which black players are percieved as lazy?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Which ones have been hailed as gritty over-achievers?
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bobby Scales
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you serious?
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A 31 year old career minor leaguer who finally made it to the Show this year? Reportedly lacks any significant tool?
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He hasn't achieved anything!
How can he be an overachiever?
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's more non-white.
I think it’s also more than just perceived as not hustling.
It’s a host of things.
Not caring. Not hustling. Being selfish. Taking plays off. Etc.
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bj, Manny, Andruw Jones
are the top 3 I thought of. Maybe they are, but to me it just seems that society in general, whether it be baseball or not throws otu that adjective (lazy) far more to the dark skinned people.
I’m not trying to offend anyone, or start a race riot for the record.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So including Hispanics
Firstly I’d have to say the Jones thing is warranted. He got fat.
Albert Pujols
Matt Kemp
Jeter (he isn’t that white)
Adrian Gonzo
HanRam
Derrek Lee
Carlos Pena
There are a lot of non-white guys that have great reps.
I think color may have something to do with it in terms of once a player gets a bad rep it makes it harder to recover from. However due to what I see as a fairly even distribution of races in the good/bad rep category I don’t think it has anything to do with it.
TD mentioned why BJ has this rep. Some of it definitely is his fault, and some of it isn’t (more the medias fault).
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Howard (even though hes fat)
Fielder (even though hes fat)
CC
Figgans
Victorino
CLee
Abreu
Cameron
Granderson
Rivera….
From what I know all of these guys are well liked with good reps. Of course I don’t follow all of these teams specifically so I may not be totally up to date. Either way i don’t race has anything to do w/ it.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHAT?
Mike Cameron?
Carlos Lee?
ABREU!!!!!!!!!!
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said I'm not up to date with everyone
But I’m not aware of any of them having horrible reputations. Not of the BJ Upton, Milton Bradey, JD Drew type. Sure they aren’t like Albert Pujols. But there are plenty of white guys that fit the same mold as Cameron, Abreu etc.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Cameron's fan reptuation is awful.
M’s and Brewer fans (the stupid ones at least) thought he K’d too much and all that crap.
I think he actually admitted to playing with a hangover a few times too.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think when Griffey went off on his perception vs Jim Edmonds in their respective primes, he put it the best.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Bradley has legitimately earned his bad reputation
Like his press conference a few weeks back… Absolutely pathetic. Vague, unsubstantiated claims of racism, and claiming that nobody knows what his life is like, because you haven’t walked a mile in his “Jordans” and “gotten paid 30 million to be the Cubs right fielder”. uhhhh…..yeah ok Milton, whatever you say.
I’m not going to play along with the media and fans and make character judgements on someone I don’t know personally, but he has done everything wrong when it comes to maintaining a public image, and that’s his own fault. Being a crappy player this year isn’t helping.
by ChiBurbRaysFan on Sep 3, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are these guys you are saying are called lazy or not
becuase Ive never heard anyone get off Jeter’s jock long enough to call him lazy.
I think you are saying there are plenty of non-white players who aren’t calld lazy. If so, that fine. Im not saying all black players are called lazy, but I would venture a guess (and its an uneducated guess) that of the players called lazy or not hard working by the media, 90% are not white.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are guys that arent lazy
So you are saying out of the small handful of ML players that are called lazy that the majority are non-white? Isn’t there a sample size problem there?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not if the majority of players are white
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that even the case anymore?
I’d guess blacks, hispanics, and Japs make up more than whites.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe it's still around 60% caucasian
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look, I'm not trying to be a dick, but I don't think sample size and p values apply here
We aren’t measuring anything statistically. Unless there is a metric for FP=L (Fan’s perception = lazy), then we are dealing with public sentiment, not numbers.
All I’m saying is, of everyone in baseball (or hell, in sports) there are those that are called hustlers and those called lazy, to paraphrase Robert Joseph Anderson. Im saying of those players deemed lazy by the general media, I would venture a guess that most players called lazy are black.
I don’t think this is or can be approached scientifically. BJ is being called lazy by the fans, thats not a measurable item. It is what it is. I just am curious if my perception is true, false, or in the general neighborhood (or "hood since we be talking about……..alright, enough of that).
How many white people are called lazy (in baseball)? How many non-white people? How many blacks? I bet the balcks outnumber the white here is all Im saying.
Again, not trying to be a jerk.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand you don't really know statistics
But sample size does matter. If you want to draw conclusions because like 7 of the 10 bad rep guys are non-white and 3 of 10 are white then so be it. I’m just telling you that is just wrong.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Am I wrong?
If I am, I’ll gladly shut up. I just had a simple question based on what Ive seen and heard in my own little world.
The way I’d relate it to football is, most of the prima donnas play wide receiver. Doesnt mean they all play WR, but it sure seems like it. ANd I wonder now if its a function of the player (same for baseball) or position (skin color in the MLB example)
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having been to about thirty Bucs games and 250+ rays game, I'd say the vast majority of "lazy" comments are directed towards black players.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, fair enough
I’m not doing a formal survey, that was my take also, just was curious. It’s how the media does business. Keep the black man down.
/’Chris Rock
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mostly, I was just making reference to P Brady's comment about matthan's arguments yesterday.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some people are just incapable of rational debate
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope this is in reference to me
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You missed my comment yesterday
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did?
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The unknowledgable fucks one
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This reminds me of the class vs race political argument
Regarding WR, I fall on the fence that the players are vilified because they all have a similar trait (what you called prima donna) which is independent of being black. It has nothing to do with blackness. It just so happens that they are black. If a white player had that same characteristic then he’d be labeled in a similar fashion. However in politics we seem to group people based upon race, rather than a more signficant underlying characterstics. This IMHO is the same in sports.
Manny and Upton are called lazy because they have in fact done lazy things. Their teams have punished them for it. It isn’t about their skin color, it is about their actions. If a white guy was punished for being lazy then we’d be saying the same thing.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too laxzy to read
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt you'd understand anyways
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I'd probably kill myself before finishing.

Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the WR thing has anything to do with being black
I think its a function of position. There are just as many ego driven running backs, corners, safeties, but the WR’s seem to push it over the top with press conferences, sit ups, etc.
So is it just coincidence that all these guys that show up (TO, Moss, Ocho Cinco, Marshall etc) are WR’s or is it a function of the position they play.
But how many white guys have done that, or if they did, would it be as publicized (I honestly dont know the answer)
Another argument for another day.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok ignore the position
I think that certain players are ‘hated’ in the NFL because of certain qualities that are totally independent of race. The fact that they all share a race is coincidental. Perhaps their similar upbringing is what caused them to have these traits, but it is the traits themselves and not the skin color is what causes the problems.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There the only guy that is in a position to routinely beat a guy mano y mano.
I imagine that would lead to quite a bit of jawing and feelings of superiority. They just need to learn to turn it off.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and the only (offensive) position where they have to have the ball deliverd
They have to call for the ball. On any passing play there are multiple outcomes (assuming a 2 WR 1 TE set there are 3 receiving options, RB, FB, sack, scramble etc)
Not saying I cant see why its ego driven, just an example.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On any passing play there are 3 outcomes
2 of them aren’t good
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
False
There might be 3 FINAL outcomes, but a completed pass to any one of 5 options is different, sack, fumble, interception, incomplete pass
Unless this is a joke. Then I say “lol”
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a quote from some old-timer that preferred to run
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, im in self defense mode
Buc Em habit that has carried over
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Make me a writer and I will fight pitched battles upon the grassy fields
Such that you may stand in the back ordering aerial attacks with the greatest of ease. In the end the fallen foes will leave such a stain on the carpet as to think the God’s themselves became angry and smited those that wish to be.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is probably the greatest thing I've ever written
You’re welcome
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do understand statistics
Jesus. How are accounting for variance in why they are calling them lazy? Do we discount the fans who were abused by Hispanics since they are pre-dispositioned to being against them?
Sample size does matter, i agree, no issues there. But I’m not out to prove that 70% of black people are lazy or that 1 in 4 males think that under 25 year old white dudes hustle.
I’m not drawing any conclusions at all? I’m not going to forward this to the census bureau so they deport all black people due to 70% being lazy. All I want to know is of the people that are called lazy in baseball, are the majority black or white?
If they are black, does that factor into it? If we had the same player, same stats, body language etc, and one was white and one ws black, are people pre-disposed to calling them black.
It might be a scientific study, but without knowing backgrounds, upbringing etc, you cant make that call. So im removing science and asking a simple question (or two). Based on what we hear/see does the public tend to give the benefit of the doubt to white people in terms of being motivated or hustling?
Crap, this went on way longer than I wanted
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats fine
I answered your question previously. I don’t think race has anything to do with it.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we hug and make up?
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
Antipithy makes the board interesting. We’re starting to develop some WWF quality rivalries here.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I cut the head off Black Beauty yesterday just for you
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to gouge out your eyeballs and fuck you with a 18th century dildo.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would you fuck me with anything
Neither of us is gay, the least we could do is have a Burr v. Hamilton style duel, I call the pistol that actually works
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dominance.
Maybe your pistol works, but I’ll have the sustaining legacy for revolutionizing the DRays Bay financial system and having penned critical documents in the ratification of wOBA. Bitch.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he planned on having a duel
but instead of pistols its flesh swords at dawn
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do't think I fit into a "regular" cast type
I would have to be someone who shows up once every 4 months to stir crap up without contributing much.
Shane McMahon? The Rock?
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are Abe "Knuckleball" Schwartz
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Victorino?
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he doesn't look white?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He looks like he's from Hawaii.
They’re a gentle people who love Spam and flowers.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
American whiteys hate hawaiins
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent article R. J.
I definitely agree that the perception of certain players is often skewed by what we hear from talking heads in the media, and that it’s a shame that some guys out there get labeled as a “bad guy”, especially if it does get in their head.
Specifically, when referring to Upton, It wouldn’t be surprising if part of his performance issues are that he is just simply trying “too hard”, and some of the negativity surrounding him has gotten inside his head.
The guy definitely is an outstanding player, and the organization and fans should still be thankful for his outstanding performance in 2008’s playoffs.
by CCtheMVP on Sep 3, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
From where I'm at now I can definitely say
It’s amount of sexual partners.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This was a good piece and i could comment on several aspects of it
1- Fans always will root for who they perceive is the underdog, either in stature or virtually anything they feel allows them to feel has more in common with them
2- I have never questioned BJ for being lazy in fact i get tired of the derences jere, although i know they’re sarcastic, but at this point overdone. I feel fans get on him more because they see what he’s capable of and where he is now
3- Your suggestion that BJ may be burned out after playing so much baseball, might not go over too well with the breadman who gets up at 3 AM everyday, for about $50K
by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The breadman is paid commensurate with his peers...
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A breadman makes $50k?
Shit, I’m in the wrong line of work.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just finished reading
Great piece R.J. I don’t want to comment one way or another without putting more thought into this. It’s not something I’ve really thought about before so thanks for sparking my own thought process. If I can make sense of how I feel about it I will get back to it later.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 1:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OH HO HO HO
In related news, from user hlm34 on the Sun Sentinel’s report on the recent spat between Dan Uggla and Hanley Ramirez:
wish Uggs had mentioned the fact that Hanley never hustles! When he hits one to the track and goes into his homer trot then only gets a single when even Ronnie would get a double! He is a slacker and thinks just because he has the contract, he can be like Dwayne Wade, A DIVA! If we had a manager, he would be told to shape up or he is fined!
Not even one of the game’s 3 best is immune. What IS the common factor here…?
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
UNO MAS
From user MichaelinDelray:
GTR543, I have to disagree with you – Hanley is not headed for the Hall of Fame…his attitude, lack of hustle everywhere on the field, terrible defensive range, mediocre power numbers for a HOF candidate, he’s only 3rd on the team in HR’s below Uggla and Ross (who both have fewer AB’s than he has), he walks less than 3 others on the team (who all have less AB’s than he does), in short, he does nothing but hit lots of singles and doubles when it doesn’t count and he certainly does NOT play hurt when it matters…I agree with coach26, trade him now while you can get something for him because I’d rather have a guy who hustles and gives 100% every day.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CAN'T STOP WON'T STOP UNH UNH UNH
From user Hollywood53:
’ve been posting about this here for days. In the last 16 games, Hanley has driven in FOUR RUNS, three of those in one game on Aug 21st. Meaning in the other 15 games, he has ONE RBI! Hanley is obviously tanking it, and everybody who watches them every day has noticed it. His body language, EVERYTHING tells the story. This is crunch time, team fighting for a playoff spot and your big hitter goes AWOL. ONE RBI in 15 games? Oh but he did get some hits about a week ago: slap hits to RF as he chases the batting crown. He is not a happy camper; expect him to demand a trade. I think he finally realizes that he will be playing in front of empty seats for the next two years and the ownership will not spend a dime, even if the team is in playoff range. Uggla was 1005 correct; Hanley has QUIT!
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I'm sorry, call me crazy but I can do without him"
From the brillz user coach26:
It’s ridiculous hearing people actually bash Uggla, and say things like “Hanley has been carrying them all year.” While his stats are gaudy, how many times have you seen this guy lazily jog to first, or play with no emotion, or better yet, how many times has he looked at a called strike three right down the middle of the plate, in big situations. I’m sorry, call me crazy, but I can do without him. Dan Uggla is one of the hardest workers on the team, and goes 100% every night. I’m not happy with Nick Johnson, either. You have football players playing with FAR worse injuries. Some of these guys are just way too soft.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bartlett, Talbot, Sonny, and Garza for Hanley
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd give them T-Becks, too.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like fantasy baseball trades
Bunch of okay players for a stud
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I honestly believed your opinion on Garza, then from your point of view, the vortex of suck created by Garza + Hickey would be deep enough to swallow a universe.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I think Garza is a #3 starter
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He pretty much plays like one now. Does that mean that Hickey doesn't suck anymore?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most pitchers under Hickey perform better without Hickey
Garza doesn’t have many non Hickey data points to compare. Although he is just as good as he is now when he came up with the Twins. Ya’ll know more about the curves of pitchers. Are pitchers supposed to improve from year 1 to 2? Or 2 to 3? If so then something is off with Garza.
Either way the reason why Hickey sucks is because his track record is garbage. It takes a feat to consistently do less with what you got.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you been reading my OTTOTDs? Have you noticed how little statistical analysis I do in any fanpost I write?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds more like retarted fans that don't know just how lucky they are
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you spelling it wrong on purpose? Is this some /b/ thing?
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does this mean?
We are lucky to have Talbot and Sonny…fringe ML players? Whew lets count our blessings
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After yesterday's Ellsbury thread, you may want to take a day or two off from running in circles.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you joking?
So saying that a team would gladly pawn off fringe players that are a dime a dozen for the best SS in the game is running in circles? Do you have any idea about value and supply? Supply is something you seem to always forget about.
And what Ellsbury thread? Perhaps you should go back and read it. But then again you think everyone has the same work ethic….
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
matthan v RJ is like the Hogan/Savage of Our Times (TM)
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd lean more towards Brutus the Barber Beefcake vs. The Brooklyn Brawler.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harsh.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JJ vs. Chyna?
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Sep 3, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chyna vs Lady Gaga
would be a fair fight.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was leaning Hogan/Ultimate Warrior
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As long as I'm not a speedo guy
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think Mattman is a staunch, batshit insane fascist?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was going for chemically enhanced
slightly insane with face paint
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone hasn't been keeping up with Warrior's day-to-days.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't and that = fail
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is now Warrior Warrior, FYI
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he hates "fags".
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's really, truely, genuinely nuts.
He’s beyond neo-con in is personal beliefs. He’s in an entirely different star system.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Youtube interviews of him in the day are a great time filler
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do yourself a favor and YouTube Roddy Piper's promo before one of the early 90 Rumbles.
He is half in blackface jawjacking Bad News Brown (legit psychopath if you believe Bret Hart’s book…). It’s surreal.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Noted
I always like that movie Piper did about fighting aliens and being able to see them because he wore sunglasses at night
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The sunglasses worked all the time in that movie.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but he was cool because he wore them at night
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
http://www.ultimatewarrior.com/
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
matthan does seem to roid rage...
ENTER…THE COCKPIT…R..J…YOU SEE THE PILOT HAS ALREADY MADE THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE…R…J…
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Congratulations for reading way too much into a comment like usual.
Further my piece wasn’t about everyone having the same work ethic. Read better. Oh, and stop being an insufferable prick in half of your replies.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ok you can think my Upton's value inquiry was about Ellsbury just like I can think you believe every player has equal work ethic
deal?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My post is pretty clearly about vampires.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't you understand the matthan thinks Ellsbury has the ability to become a level five paladin?
You unknowledgable fuck.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+10 HP y'all.
Sign lady must die.
Be the first on your block to own DRB Gear.
by EminenceFront on Sep 3, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BOOTS OF +12 GRIT
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cartman: All right, you guys. The Moment of Truth is here. It is time for our final battle. Everyone, log in!
Stan: I’m in.
Kyle: Me too.
Kenny: (Me too.)
Cartman: [begins to slur his speech ever so slightly, giving it a blasé feel] Everyonen equip healing potions to the hotbar if you haven’t already. Uh, Kyle, go ahead and cast Arcane Brilliance to raise our intelligence.
Kyle: Hang on, I’m chaining my fire spells for max range.
Cartman: Nice. Stan, what enchantment does your Cloak of the Tiger have?
Stan: +15 agility
Cartman: Give the cloak to Kenny: he needs the agility boost for bow attacks.
Stan: ‘K.
Kyle: Hold on, this fight could last more than twelve hours. What if we run out of food?
Cartman: Don’t worry, I have that covered. [pressed a button on a small intercom on his desk] Mom?
Liane: Yes hon?
Cartman: More Hot Pockets!
Sign lady must die.
Be the first on your block to own DRB Gear.
by EminenceFront on Sep 3, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love that episode
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously!
It is about BJ Upton.
He is the black man that has sucked the life right out of the season.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What are you talking about
This was in response to Marlins fans bitching that Hanley is lazy. I would give up 3 fingers to have that lazy asshole man short for us
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You said Barlett, Sonny, Talbot, and Garza for Hanley
I said that is the type of trade I try to make in fantasy baseball. Numerous ok players for one stud. Then I get bashed because I don’t think Sonny and Talbot are future HOFers. God forbid that I think they are easily replaceable.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now you're just trying to pick fights with people, you read that completely wrong, just be a man and admit it
I didn’t say anything about our players. I was talking about Marlins fans not appreciating Hanley, Jesus get some glasses bro
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bartlett, Talbot, Sonny, and Garza for Hanley
That was your quote. I responded to that. What did I read wrong?
My response to that was that it reminds me of fantasy trades that I love to try to do.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I wish I got Ellsbury for Upton
Uptons 0 for 4 with 3 k’s in a league that counts k’s as well as valuing sb’s fairly high is pretty brutal
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boston positions Ellsbury in the other box.
Does that make the difference?
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not denying it's an unfair package
My point was that stupid Marlins fans would embrace it every day of the week, because they don’t realizejust how good Hanley is. Thanks for taking my stress level up a notch by missing the point.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I said I'd love to do that trade
I don’t exactly see what the problem is?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not blackonomics; Hanley's a dirty spaniard.
But he is dark like the darkies.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's xenophobia, ethnophobia, whatever. And its not just baseball and its not just America.
I’d bring soccer into this, but yall will most def have a hissy.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll say this. Prior to BJ, the lazy players on this team were Travis Lee, and before that Ben Grieve. Both of them are very much white.
So in this case, it may not be a color thing as much as it is that BJ does not look like a blithering idiot, flailing his arms like he’s in the midst of an epileptic fit whenever he’s running.
Jaromir Jagr while in Pittsburgh also was accused quite often of lacking hustle.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This guy

Greatest 80’s haircut to be featured during the 90’s
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How could you want to check a guy with such luscious locks?
by Marky Mark's Third Nipple on Sep 3, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The bangs are the best IMO
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see what you mean, I'm definitely liking.
by Marky Mark's Third Nipple on Sep 3, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He looks kind of like Lori Laughlin from her days on Full House
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking more along the lines of Katey Sagal in "Married with Children",

Less exaggerated of course
by Marky Mark's Third Nipple on Sep 3, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a shame Christina Applegate is breastless now.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They'll give her nice ones
A friend of mine just had pre-emptive surgery since it’s so high in her family
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's typically how it works in double masectomies.
High cancer risk = remove all breast tissue and replace with oversized fake boobies.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seconded. Those were nice cans.
Sign lady must die.
Be the first on your block to own DRB Gear.
by EminenceFront on Sep 3, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks remarkably similar
to how almost every overweight female wears their hair.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it happens MORE to any non-white.
There will always be outliers.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm only talking about this area here, not baseball fans by-and-large.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same area that has deified a blocky white dude who can literally not run through a hole
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry but I liked Mike Alstott.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked him too
But he wasn’t as good of a football player as many around here (Duemig) seem to think.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do, too.
But I don’t think he is THE GREATEST BUCCANEER EVER.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's better then Brooks
And by better, I mean whiter.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want to throw up at the group ejaculation everytime he is mentioned
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have to admit Alstott was way underutilized by Gruden.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll admit that alot of people were under utilized by Gruden
particularly anyone under the age of 35
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hated Gruden
But no, I don’t think he underutilized Alstott.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In his last year here, Dunn played with an injured himstring all year long which pretty much made that comparison easy.
It also didn’t help that he whined out the ‘they block for me differently’ card.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A-PLANE
WHY RUN THROUGH A HOLE WHEN YOU CAN PUSH 20 GUYS IN FRONT OF YOU OR FLY OVER THEM
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean like how Montrealers loved Eric Gagne but were lukewarm to Vladimir Guerrero
Or the obsession with Vinny Lacavalier.
Francophones!
Your source for replacement level commentary
by RATW on Sep 3, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Video link of altercation?
I read the transcript, but I need vids!
by Marky Mark's Third Nipple on Sep 3, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent
Just an excellent read.
Blue Jays fans should read this, and think of Vernon Wells when they do.
Nicely done.
Cheers.
A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...
PLAYOFFS!!!!1
by eyebleaf on Sep 3, 2009 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Vernon makes enough money to buy solid gold ear plugs for when they get uppity
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need an image of this:
matthan in; thread derailed
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Let's trade matthan for boxxy
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like this?
Sign lady must die.
Be the first on your block to own DRB Gear.
by EminenceFront on Sep 3, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't blame me that some folks here are so stuck in their ways that they are unable to think outside the box
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The world is my box
My intellect has been stretching labia’s since 1983
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I..uh..Jesus man.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't that the whole point of living?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
My only experience with human nature is being.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm never doing an emo post again.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually really liked this line
just seemed appropriate
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Getting emo over his emo post? It's more likely then you think.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The comments are emo.
I’m just a candle in the wind baby.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And propane accessories.
Sign lady must die.
Be the first on your block to own DRB Gear.
by EminenceFront on Sep 3, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is why we can't have nice things.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just praise Spongebob that PLK isn't here to see this.
Sign lady must die.
Be the first on your block to own DRB Gear.
by EminenceFront on Sep 3, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No matter the disdain?
Got a contraceptive is your way to be protective?
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all
There are some great thinkers here, but tons of sheep too.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
Nice to be recognized
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well you'd fit in with the first portion of that
I’m all for learning more and advancing our knowledge on statistics. I love to question. The whole “we must follow this because so and so said it” just isn’t for me. SOme others here are the same way, but I guess I’m more outspoken.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BAAAAAAAAH
baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think because of the great thinkers there are bound to be sheep
Sometimes when something makes sense you just have to agree with it. Though I think most people understand how a solution was arrived at, making the term sheep rather derisive.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seeing how I'm the first person to ever use the word 'derisive', I think that makes you a sheep.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha. I coined the verb "to see".
So latch on to my taint with those lips, boyo.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forget the taint
based on his post below, he’d rather you bring over a Hulk Hogan action figure. “Whatcha gonna do brother, when my plastic arm runs wild inside of you.”
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, what?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From Sandy
Don’t act like you’ve never dildo’d a girl with a Hulk action figure
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just the head, jeez man what if the arm broke off in there
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing wrong with a floating turd
with arms and/or legs sticking out of it
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, so what you're saying is that you need a refresher on the guide on how not to get banned.
Focusing very much on the part about reading comprehension.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Royalty check is in the mail
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In this thread?
How are there sheep in here? Granted, once the dildo talk and hogan reference started flying I got a bit lost, but seems some people, myself included asked questions.
I generally ask a question in alot of threads because I dont know the answer. If that makes me a sheep, then please dont penetrate me.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually you aren't a sheep
My previous post mentioned that it is all about questioning. More questions the better. Although I probably do more questioning the answer of a question than you do. Either way I have no problem with that.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I question how many times you question me
making me more of a questioner than you are. Ha!
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't act like you've never dildo'd a girl with a Hulk action figure
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was more of a Hacksaw Jim Duggan type of guy
the ladies loved that plank of wood
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What kinds of ladies?
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS!
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You make me laugh on a regular basis, though not for the reasons you likely intended.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd fit in better with the heater
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
QUANTIFY ME NOW, MATTHAN, OR LOSE ME FOREVER.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cmon Sutt
YOU BIG STUD
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say the collective IQ drops by 20
Hows that for quantifying?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AS FLIES TO A WANTON BOYS, AM I TO MATTHAN. HE KILLS ME FOR SPORT.
God damn, if only I had your brain, I could be a real boy.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's funny, for a while I was calling for him to get editor rights.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...
him?
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know too many girls named Matthew, do you?
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well thank you
I know for sure some people here appreciate my insights and the questions that I try to answer. Unfortunately some people just don’t understand me. I’m sure that is partially my fault. And this bash Matt fest started because I responded that I’d love to do the “Barty, Garza, Sonny and Talbot” for HanRam trade that Sandy Kazmir mentioned. If RJ said the same thing I said then nobody would have gotten all on his case. Perhaps Buc Wild should research that?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d love to do the "Barty, Garza, Sonny and Talbot" for HanRam trade that Sandy Kazmir mentioned

Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You need to cut back on using that image.
Sign lady must die.
Be the first on your block to own DRB Gear.
by EminenceFront on Sep 3, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously that slut is mega annoying
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My name is Boxxy you see!
*Manually makes lips go in a smile with fingers"
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL LOL U MAD
Sign lady must die.
Be the first on your block to own DRB Gear.
by EminenceFront on Sep 3, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's your tone more than anything
I like disagreement, I hate when one side is condescending.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not even condescending, he's just douchey.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly is it just a defense mechanism
People here talk trash so I talk it back. I try to respond normally to the normal folks. However sometimes it gets lost in translation due to the format of these threads.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I try to remain even-keeled when being serious
Shouting just leads to more shouting, so it goes with arrogance
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are one of the few here that is okay with disagreement
If we could filter out the douchey people and replies and just had a rational dialogue then you wouldn’t find me condescending. Unfortunately as RJ mentioned there are a lot of different folks wanting different things around here. Good discourse can get lost very easily.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're a really good troll. I respect you.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think of you as an annoying troll
But every site needs annoying trolls. If all we had were professors and no kids spitting spitballs at the chalk board then this place would get boring quickly.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL LOL U MAD ARENT U DA EMPORER OF DRAY'S BAY LOLZ
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously
If you think Tommy, yourself, RJ or any of your other buddies would have gotten the same reception as I by saying “That is the type of trade that I like to pull off in fantasy baseball” then you are just kidding yourself.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The whole thing was a joke pointing to the stupidity of fans.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, so?
I simply said I try to do that type of trade in fantasy baseball. Seriously how often does one post follow along directly with the post three replies above?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's actually one thing I would like to see more of
Reply to the person you are replying to don’t just add to the chain. Not you, specifically, but we end up with narrow columns and replies to the wrong thing.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it would be handled differently.
People know (and presumably trust me) from this site forever and from other sites. I’m not trying to toot my horn here, but I’ve gained trust and acceptance as generally knowing what the hell I’m talking about.
You haven’t. That’s not bashing you or anything, but it’s like saying why doesn’t sternfan get the same benefit of the doubt as me.
Stop trying to create drama.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For some reason, whenever I hear anyone mention 'create drama'
I think about Fergie peeing her pants and trying to call it sweat.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hve no idea why I find the above statement so hilarious...
but I do.
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know exactly why.
http://www.idolschmidol.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/fergie_pants.jpg
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I'm familiar with the pic...
I just think it’s hilarious that is what you think of when some mentions “create drama”.
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very nice.
Sign lady must die.
Be the first on your block to own DRB Gear.
by EminenceFront on Sep 3, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand that
But in this case I’m not trying to revolutionize anything about baseball. All I said is that I’d love to trade for Hanley while only giving up okay players. Is that really that controversal?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think SKaz was serious and I don't really care
It’s hijacked something that took me the better part of four hours to produce and is completely irrelevant.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well don't blame me
My first couple replies were totally on topic and serious. The thread took a different direction, i said something pretty innocent, and then i get bashed. of course i’m going to defend myself. thats what i don’t get. quite obviously people bash me first, then i get blamed for defending myself?
and i know he wasn’t serious. hence why i said it is a trade i like to try to make in FANTASY baseball.
and you should hide all of this off topic crap
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I blame him
Honestly though, well thought out post.
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats fine
Like I said a few weeks back, if someone talks trash I’ll just play along. I’m not going to sit here and take it from a bunch of trolls just to preserve your OP.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
take it from a bunch of trolls just to preserve your OP.
Which black players are percieved as lazy?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED’s? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 1:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What?
BucWild made a post so I asked him a question. Am I supposed to know by osmosis which players he thinks are lazy?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn't asking about "What Black Players he Thinks are Lazy"
Plus, its not like their isn’t a shortage on Black Players perceived as lazy, as usual, you were just being a troll for the sake of being a troll, and twisting people’s words while playing ignorant.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not your fault

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh no, I wouldn't want that now. God, that'd be tragic.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Editor? Man, I don't have editor rights.
Its what keeps me coming back. The quest to excel.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Sep 3, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have that expected pitching thing pretty much done if you want me to send it your way
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well expected walks
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes plz, been using your xK%
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Sep 3, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps
What is weird is I think of many of you like sternfan. Weird universe we have here.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really do think this is fitting.
I can't wait until we trade him for a reliever.
by kericr on Sep 3, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bizarro bizarro
Today is out there man
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
EARTH WIND AND FIRE
BACK TO THE SHIRE
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BAWK BAWK, I'M A CHICKEN
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like him because he usually raises thinking points.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the people here that are willing and want to expand their knowledge base
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Running a site is about more than catering to people who only want to play Q&A.
We have classroom-esque moments around here, but there’s also room for less serious stuff.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I realize that
Obviously there is a diverse crowd here and you do a lot for everyone.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has heart and soul
www.draysbay.com
by Tommy Rancel on Sep 3, 2009 2:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
You're our yodascout.
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is an interesting read from RJ
I played a lot of baseball growing up, as many of you guys probably did as well. I thought I was pretty good and maybe even had a shot. I played against some that did make it , and sometimes outperformed them on the field. I can say I didn’t play on the H.S. team that got as much publicity or that at 6’ tall and only 148 lbs. my physical stature was too far behind upon graduation. Or I was a righty and lefty pitchers have an easier time. The bottom line is that I took the safe way out. I didn’t go for it. I went to college and got a degree instead of trying. Major League baseball players must have some drive, if they have an alternative future available to them. It takes guts. If you make the decision to go for it and blow it, you start your economic life miles behind the rest of people who took the safer route. I still wonder about it.
by terp12 on Sep 3, 2009 2:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Scared of needles, eh?
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Needles?
More like scared of being 26 years old and putting minor league baseball for the past 5 years on my resume.
by terp12 on Sep 3, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Used car dealerships love that sort of thing
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh duh
Steroids. I hadn’t heard of them at that time. Remember, I’m probably older than you. I graduated H.S. in 1986. Back when hitting 36 homers was a lot.
by terp12 on Sep 3, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just remember most of the guys I played HS with doing Andro and Creatine and getting big
And saying that that is not what I signed up for. I just love to run and hit and throw people out
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Andro and Creatine are like Vitamin C compared to the crap I used to see done...
Seriously, it was crazy…
by td32 on Sep 3, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I mean
Just seeing the tip of the iceberg was enough to put my dreams on hold. That and being a 5’8 singles/doubles SS-P.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stopped watching for years
Obviously, I love baseball or I wouldn’t participate in this discussion every day. While in H.S. I only removed my team hat to shower. The mid 90’s to 2006 were dark years for me. I completely stopped watching or caring about baseball. Before the roids became in the news, I knew something was wrong. When I saw Brady Anderson hit 50 homers, I was disgusted. The game strategy had changed from the mid 70’s and late 80’s that I had liked. That is a large part of why I like the Rays. They brought me back to the game. They have team speed, and do things that have brought back strategy to baseball. I just happen to be fortunate enough to live in Tampa and get to pull for that style of ball.
by terp12 on Sep 3, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My wife's nephew pitched in junior college the last two years
After seeing the kind of stuff players were taking, he was ready to throw in the towel.
Then his elbow blew out, which pretty much decided his future for him.
Your source for replacement level commentary
by RATW on Sep 3, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we all just need to cool down and DANCE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNcKbvYjFZw&feature=related
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I've stopped opening your videos since I don't care much for Afghanistanimation
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not Japanese, this is swedish
CARAMELLDANSEN _
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6Zp4cW8w8A
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pete Rose
Growing up he was the guy who got dirty and was the epitome of hard work and effort. He was the guy kids wanted to emulate. It is still a shame what happened and I would love to see him in the hall. I think in general it is a very natural American feeling to pull for the guy who works his ass off.
by terp12 on Sep 3, 2009 2:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
did you just equate being short with a disability?
by davidsmarch on Sep 3, 2009 2:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"Vertically Challenged"
Sign lady must die.
Be the first on your block to own DRB Gear.
by EminenceFront on Sep 3, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They do get paid less.
Freaking midgets.
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You made mention that some players get burnt out after doing it for so long
Do you think BJ is burnt out on baseball? Would higher expectations contribute to that?
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Higher expectations usually bring more pressure, no?
I don’t know if he’s burnt out, but most people get burnt out at some point during a six month span.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
I was looking at a career arc though. Do these highly touted guys that make it at an earlier age burn out quicker? Is that what we’re seeing with Beej?
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well Hambone's career arc is more of an inverted Sin curve
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IMHO if BJ was burning out he'd have signed a long term contract with guaranteed money
I think the fact that he is striving to make big bucks in FA means he isn’t burnt out.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd agree
I have to imagine the expectations, constant booing or cat calls has to weigh on him.
Has he had the opportunity to sign a long term deal? Asking because I dont know
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the minors LaMar tried extending him, a la Longoria.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd imagine at that point, he may not have been burnt out
its just speculation, and probably unwarranted at that. But if that deal was offered when the whole pro baseball thing was new, seems their logic would be different then, than it is now
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure he has
Players such as Longo should be more vulnerable to burn out due to his contract. $$$ is a pretty large motivating factor.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've always wanted to do a study on how players across any sport
perform in their contract years. But it’s a bit extensive, or at least I’d imagine it would be. You always hear “Its a contract year so he should be playing at 110%” or something.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jonah Keri or James Click (Or Dayn Perry, I don't recall) covered this in Between the Numbers
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well damnit
I missed that. And I havent heard of those guys, are they field researchers, or more baseball guys?
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you read this site, you need to read Baseball Between the Numbers.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't say it's a prerequisite, but it's close.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. It doesn't have WAR or anything like that, but it's definitely worthwhile.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If anyone has a copy, you can send to FreeZo
we wash our Balfour and Cadillac pj’s together
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are so naive.
Write the publisher and tell them you’d like a review copy.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great 20 bucks down the drain for that Tango/MGL/Dolphin brainwashing
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Companies are quite friendly when you agree to do free PR work in exchange for one copy.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love them Coca-Cola's and Frito-Lay Doritoes
give me money
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the subject, did you ever read KC Joyner's football stuff?
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think I've read all of it
but some of it, yes.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's good stuff. It's inherently subjective, but I find his work just as interesting as Outsiders.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm playing a ton of catch up over at FO
but am trying to introduce it over at Buc Em as I become familiar with it.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Been there, done that.
I wasn’t really into advanced metrics until last season.
Just find a few good sites and dig in. I’ve heard Field Gulls is quite good.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a bit hesitant to get too deep into some advanaced stats
since they’re readily admitting they aren’t finalized or polished. I like the way they are going and it provides a great look past the boxscore.
My issue, and maybe you’ev encountered it here is the willingness of people to embrace the stats. For instance, my OL piece I did (my favorite so far) spat in the face of all the fans, myself included that thought our OL was top 5 in the league.
I struggle with how to get people to see past the box score or highlights and look at what the numbers say. That OL piece went over like a lead balloon. Everyoen believed our OL was great, but the numbers definitely didnt back it up.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No matter where you go things that aren't readily accepted are going to be mocked
That will happen even in the most intellectual circles. All you can do is keep trucking along. Sooner or later even the most hardliners will see the light.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DVOA is a living document and better than anything else out there
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll admit, I still struggle with DVOA
and how the hell do you explain that to people who don’t know anything mroe than total yards, TD’s and INT?
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Part of the struggle
is I haven’t done the research. I’m assuming (in DVOA’s case) that they’ve weighted the defenses correctly, and graded the plays correctly and been able to identify how other people would do in a similar situation based on defense. It’s a leap of statistical faith that’s tough for me to take.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A simple analogy is that it is like UZR comparing every
play against similar parameters over a huge sample. Their strength of schedule is the biggest component.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most people just want to sit back and watch the game and have
a couple simple things to rely on. Ignorance is bliss
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Part of the reason I like the articles here
is you can see the stats, month by month, or year by year. You know the factors or other numbers that go into them (same with FG and Baseball Reference).
On FO, I can’t “see” the calculations on DVOA. They’re just there.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See if they'll hook you up with a discounted subscription
You’re doing them a favor pimping their site and you can get a
behind the scenes look at more of their stuff. You won’t get
the formulas but more puzzle pieces makes a better picture
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a problem with all Prospectus companies.
They blackbox everything.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way, for anyone who "gets' DVOA
Ive used it in two articles and I have no idea if I’m representing it correctly. If anyone wants to seriously comment, I’d appreciate it. I want to get it more for my sake, but so I can also be sure to represent it fairly and correctly to the BE crowd.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The articles I'm referring to are the OL article and the Kellen Winslow article from yesterday or the day before.
Got some questions on DVOA and I had a difficult time answering them. Specifically, if K2 had sucha monster year in 2007 (89 catches, 1100 yards, 5 TD’s) and Stevens had a mediocre statistcal year, how was K2’s DVOA only a few points higher? His DYAR was actually worse.
That baffled me, but I suppose the defenses played can affect that.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Part of it could be context
They adjust for flow of the game I.E. if K2 did all that in big
wins or losses it would not carry the same context
as if JS did that in a game that mattered.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alright, good
that’s exactly the comment and conclusion I came to. situational based, adjusted for defense, at least Im on the right track.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I second that
I love baseball, and have watched almost every game for at least two seasons, but also have a job and family. Scrutinizing stats for me is just too much.
by terp12 on Sep 3, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've encountered it and there's no easy way around it.
People are going to think you’re a stat nerd and love calculators.
They miss that the math isn’t as important as the meaning.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is just human nature
One day the same thing will happen with this site. Someone will come up with new and imrpoved baseball statistics and even members of this board will look at it skeptically. Most people are just too lazy or unable to look at the numbers to see if something really is an improvement.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're fucking retarded, go start your own blog
Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.
by P Brady on Sep 3, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go back to the heater
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The goal is to present the material and ideas without having to lean on the stats too much in the meat of the article.
You address the reader first as though this is your opinion, although it’s founded in research and then you data dump at the end.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've found the numbers usually correlate with general observations.
The cases they don’t is usually pretty interesting though.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Case and point with the OL thread
was met with a bunch of “your wrong”, or “I dont get it” or “they played well”
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought you did a good job on that article.
I have a slight problem with FO’s evaluation of offensive lines because it’s only valuable when talking about the entire unit’s performance, and not neccessarily individual talent and problems, but that was a good article. You’re always going to have dunces who don’t understand and are unwillinging to understand.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with their OL metrics are
it doesnt account for things like guards who pull on a play, fullback blocking, running back talent, style etc. An OL can block a play perfectly, but if the RB is an idiot and doesn’t read the block, it reflects poorly and vice versa.
It does a decent job looking at directional running plays (which i LOVE to look at) but again, doesn’t define, explain, or capture all the variables. yet.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No offense, but most of your readers come off as absolute dumbasses.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, I think that reflects on me partially as the writer.
that Leftwich argument, I was using rudimentary stats but couldn’t get my point across.
Not everyone wants to learn, and that’s fine, but I always thought (in any walk of life) if you present the facts correctly and fairly (and they are right) they should speak for themselves.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No matter how well you do something, there are always going to be people who are opposed, for no fucking good reason.
Which is why you do things for yourself and for no one else.
The more you keep coming up with article ideas and working on them, the better your writing and presentation will get. Just keep pounding away.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true.
Use this thread as an example. If they hate then let them hate and watch the page visits pile up.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is kind of my philosophy
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Football Stats VS Baseball Stats
Isn’t football much harder to create the same depth of individual player analysis than baseball? In baseball, you are alone at a position and what you do is obvious. An interior lineman or even a WR are reliant on so many other variables that can affect their game. Hell, some of the baseball stats are very debatable, (see yesterday’s posts BJ vs Ellsbury, stadium, coaching, etc.).
by terp12 on Sep 3, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, that's a challenge FO faces for sure
How do you call an OL good or successful if their running back can’t saty on his feet or make the right cut? That RB greatly affects the OL’s stature and stats. But they are definitely moving the right way and it’s interesting to see the progress made.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anytime you can challenge conventional wisdom and you have facts to back it up, you're going to have some good material.
The trick is dropping your math hat and putting on your writing hat. You have to address the readers with passion, energy, and lure them into your premise without beating them on the head or making it into a “This is a stats article!” It’s a difficult position to be in, which is why it’s so encouraging that your writing continues to improve.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps one day he could even be an SEO salesman
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball.
Click is in our FO, Perry is at FOXSports, and Keri is a writing whore.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I knew you, I'd let you borrow my copy
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Sep 3, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Place it in a brown paper bag
and hide in locker 137 at the train station. I’ll be in touch.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's been done, and if I recall correctly, there's some correlation between a contract year and improved performance.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a bit of a closet geek
I’ll have to check it out, Im fascinated by that stuff. Sports related and Im hooked.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is an intersting thought
I’ve always wondered the impact on a player like Longo.
He busts his butt his whole life to get to the majors. Gets there. And gets locked into a contract/location/pay structure for the next decade. His sense of urgency and motivation has to be impacted.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All depends on the kind of soci-economic situation he was raised in, the type of support team he has around him, and his genuine love for the game.
There are hundreds of thousands of people who don’t quit working hard merely because they’ve got a good pay check.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if teams do that sort of research in the draft process
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, yeah, it's called scouting.
As for statistically? I don’t know. I know some intern in the Houston Rockets organization did a study related to the size of a prospect’s family when entering the draft. I would be shocked if the Rays haven’t done something similar, but it’s more likely they rely on their scouts and interviews to determine a player’s makeup.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I know some intern in the Houston Rockets organization did a study related to the size of a prospect’s family when entering the draft."
Know anything more?
I’m a Magic fan, but the Rockets interest me to no end.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're so far ahead of the curve it isn't funny
They had no business being in the playoffs last year, and yet they were. So what did they do differently?
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They had both lazy and gritty blacks
That combination causes the world to explode
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now you're just being fabulous
look at you
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They do a better job of tracking statistics.
Read Tommy Cragg’s article on Deadspin about NBA score keeping. I’m sure the Rockets rely on a much more efficient and accurate system for analyizing player performance, which gives them the ability to pick out bargains and details other organization’s wouldn’t.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Patriots and Rockets seem to "get" the draft.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the Pats are a little overrated, to be honest.
It seems like a lot of their success comes from their ability to get the most out of their free agents more than it is hitting consistently in the draft.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pats do seem to get "it" though...
great article in the Mag about Belichick and how he molds his assistants.
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's both
Which leads you to believe that their coaching is very adept at putting guys in position to exce3l
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I meant trading into the second round.
Less money and probably not a huge difference between their #1 DB option and #3.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah, that's certainly true. I doubt some of thier talent evaluation, but they get the finances of the league perfectly.
Bill Walsh was also wonderful about knowing the value of draft picks, though he didn’t have to deal with a salary cap.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing about the Pats is that they seem to value players and draft picks correctly
There are so many times they seem to trade for a very good player for just an okay draft pick that ends up being nobody important.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Bar Mitzvah theme was the Orlando Magic
/winds up Sutree
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Sep 3, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're the Rays of the NBA.
I’m not sure if there’s anything particularly extensive written about it… it’s propietary, so I’m sure there aren’t a lot of details out there.
Google it, I don’t really have the time at the moment.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, I misread your comment as knowing an intern of the Rockets.
I wish I had the ability to land a book deal because holy crap Morey I’m coming for you.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well there is a difference between scouting someones tools and determining what type of mental make up they have
Of course not many 16/17 yr olds are going to behave the same way once they mature. It is probably a futile exercise
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell that to Dwight
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell that to Josh Hamilton
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has a family to support
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So does Dwight?
After all he is such a good Christian boy!
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perception != Reality
I wish I was born without a conscious so I could be in PR.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure you could narrow down your risk factor, but think about Billy Beane versus Darryl Strawberry,.
Also, a big part of scouting is more than determining tools. Read about how the Yankees decided to pick Jeter – a major factor was the scout getting to his family.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A big part of anything is being able to work in the middle grounds, not the extremes
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
My question was more about how the scouts are able to determine a players mental make up. How do they score it? Rate it against other players? Do they make a player go see a shrink? Do they hire a PI?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mostly by instinct in the past.
Now there are probably plenty of psychological evaluations involved, and although they continue to get better, they’re not even close to being accurate most of the time. Even taking into account that some players don’t like to be interviewed, don’t know how to take a test, et cetera, skews the results.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vince's 6 on the Wonderlic seems like one where they got it right
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The big advantage of the Wonderlic isn't the actual effectiveness of determining a player's intelligence/brain power.
Just to see if they give enough of a shit to take. Vince didn’t and the Titans are paying for it.
I was always skeptical of his game translating to the NFL’s current standards than his makeup, though.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BUT HE WILLS HIS TEAMS TO VICTORY!
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said
If I’m recruiting two guys give me the one that wants to get an A on everything
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But with baseball...the sheer numbers of potential draftees makes comprehensive evaluations near impossible
Hell the Rays ended up Elijah Dukes.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Calculated move to curry favor with the Dukes offspring pipeline
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't have attendance issues if they were still around.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I choose to end this here
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
In basketball, the research the Rockets did worked because it was focused on merely the guys who got drafted.
In baseball, you’re dealing with so many more players, it’d be impossible to tell any meaning. Or close to it.
Dukes is a good example, though. The Rays knew he had issues, coming from his background and his personality, but they ran the risk anyway. It wasn’t a bad risk.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What % of people get burnt out?
To the point of it impacting performance and work ethic? It has to be minor. Im sure it happens in baseball though. Honestly I doubt BJ falls here or else he’d have signed for $$$ and then coasted.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Becomming a major league regular demands the ability to avoid becomming "burnt out," so if it does exist, it's more likely to be a factor for guys like Billy Beane, who made it, but was never a particularly great starter.
Though, in this era of analysis, UZR probably would have loved Billy Beane.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I look at the world and I know that it's turning
While my calculator gently weeps
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 2:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You are what's wrong with DRB.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 3:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Suicide Phoenix doesn't do any Beatles covers?
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shut the fuck up Suttree
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FUCK A STRANGER IN THE ASS
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You just prefer to stretch strangers labias
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And then never see them again
Easier to be emotionally devoid
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish you guys would stop being so obsessed with my band and love me for my baseball opinions.
Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.
by PlayOnWords on Sep 3, 2009 3:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Who uses a calculator anymore?
Need an updated copy of MS Office?
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd
Although 5-7 years for accounting burnout seems high. I’m at 2 years and am about finished. Let me add that Carlos Beltran is lazy, soft, and not a winner.
by James Kannengieser on Sep 3, 2009 3:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
James Kannengieser IS Steve Phillips IN... Bringing Home the WAR.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops
My own fault, given that I’m not a regular commenter here. My Beltran comment was 100%, in-your-face sarcastic.
by James Kannengieser on Sep 3, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was being equally sarcastic.
It’s a weird phenomenon that takes getting used to. It’s a rather sublime form of humor limited to the internet in application.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha ok
Thank you for spelling my last name correctly. Even if it is spelled out in the byline of my comment.
by James Kannengieser on Sep 3, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with what I believe to be the main premise of this article
Correct me if I’m wrong but what I read was: Baseball players must love playing baseball because they have spent so much time doing it.
There are tons of examples of guys who have admitted that they didn’t like baseball at all even after playing it in the majors for many years.
What do they play then? (1) they like money and (2) real jobs normally don’t involve playing games.
Particularly, I don’t think RJs argument holds up for those blessed with extreme talent. They just kind of go with the flow because its relatively easy and they make a lot of money. I’ll use Josh Hamilton as an example. He has openly stated that he doesn’t like baseball. I know he may not be the best example, but I think it is relevant to the argument.
Basically, I would say that maybe 75% of major league players actually love baseball. I don’t personally know BJ Upton nor have I heard any quotes from him, so its silly to speculate on his passion. The underlying thesis of the article is flawed in my opinion. Just because you spend a lot of time doing something doesn’t mean you love it or even like it.
by RaysTheRoof on Sep 3, 2009 4:08 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Sorry perez saying that baseball players have a tough life cause they have to travel to distant cities and endure
the hardships of the esoteric baseball culture doesn’t do it for me.
These guys didn’t work any harder to get where they are then I did to get where I am. And I certainly don’t love what I do. Nor do all baseball players love what they do. Its really common sense. I’d be shocked if my number of 75% isnt much closer to the truth than RJs 99.9% figure.
by RaysTheRoof on Sep 3, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're probably more informed than the casual fan
If so then this piece wasn’t aimed at you I’d be willing to bet. Many don’t realize that this kids game is a job. My link was mostly to show the importance of separating one’s personal and business lives. I work with people that can’t, as I imagine you do as well.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been called a lot of things but I believe that is a first
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I failed if that's the only thing you took from it.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not trying to be a dick...
I read the whole article and it was really difficult to figure out what your “take-home point” was. Based on the article and the comments this is what I gathered. You might work on structuring the flow so its easier to follow. Its kind of rambling and jumps all over the place.
You can blame it on my stupidity and lack of reading comprehension ability if you want, but I doubt that is the case.
by RaysTheRoof on Sep 3, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had a few others read it and most seem to come away with the idea I was portraying.
I made multiple points and that wasn’t one I was pressing the hardest.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sports Figure
I personally know a sports figure that says he hates his job. He complains of spending too much time away from his family, and that he does nothing but his job. He misses his kids birthdays and some holidays. He does it because, he is relatively good at it, and can provide a lot more for his family than if he were a doing anything else he could possibly qualify for.
by terp12 on Sep 3, 2009 4:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A lot of professional sports players feel this way.
They don’t all love what they do. Which really shouldn’t be surprising.
by RaysTheRoof on Sep 3, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't tell if this was a relative success or failure.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 4:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
500+ comments usually signify something bad
Not so sure here
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly I don't think a lot of people praising the article really understood its point
if I and other completely failed to grasp it.
We label baseball players attitudes based on our perceptions, which may be inaccurate?
I mean, I think that’s obvious. If its aimed at the casual fan, then this seems worthwhile. If its aimed at most of the regulars here, I don’t know.
by RaysTheRoof on Sep 3, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The commenting body makes up a small portion of the readerbase.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't know that.
And in such case, I find the article appropriate and worthwhile. Not that you necessarily do or should care about my opinion.
by RaysTheRoof on Sep 3, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you know that 15.2% of our readers come from Pakistan?
LINK I did not
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
43,555th most trafficed site in Pakistan 92,379 in the States
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pashtuns love baseball.
I’m sending coded terrorist messages via my comments.
(Yes, I just insinuated Pakistan = Pashtuns = terrorists)
Your source for replacement level commentary
by RATW on Sep 3, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing again.
We probably have 75-100 people who make 1+ comments per month. That’s a very small portion of the people who visit the site.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Threads that involve my greatness usually end up with tons of posts, but unfortunately it is 80% of interesting but OT posts
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait... what?
You failed to get it, so it’s bad?
I got it. I think it was good. I usually knock RJ’s stuff like this. I tend to agree completely with his salient point.
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My feeling:
That the perceptions about players feelings about the game and attitudes are caused by misconceptions. Furthermore the effort level attributed to players by media and fans is often skewed by factors that have little/nothing with actual facts.
IE He’s short, so he tried hard. He’s supremely athletic, so he doesn’t care.
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was that really it, RJ?
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A large portion of the piece was dedicated to that, no?
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was trying to read more into, because that seemed simple and obvious to all of us commentors.
Whereas its probably very enlightening to more casual fans.
by RaysTheRoof on Sep 3, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would argue most of the stuff is pretty obvious.
Like the patience post, the playoffs stuff, etc.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And honestly, going for the deep, delicate point isn't going to work in most cases.
Because people will just read over it.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 3, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How long did you spend on this piece?
In the future, it might be the type of post that you work on, let it sit, and then re-write it the next day, just to sort of improve its cohesiveness, though as I said previously, I thought it was well written and interesting, even though most of the regulars are familiar with the concepts you’re talking about.
Then again, this is a blog, so having an editing process is not really a requirement.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHERE IS YOUR READING COMPREHENSION NOW?
Boom. Outta Here.
by WillisDaddy on Sep 3, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
YOU COULD NOT BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, yeah
Typically if the recipient of a communication misunderstands, especially if we’re assuming an intelligent recipient trying in good faith to understand, it’s the fault of the communicator.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Sep 3, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like a lot of people got it.
I also feel like a lot of people are missing the bigger picture to harp on a few opinions.
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
500+ comments
Came because it was a long article, that made several points worth pursuing.
by terp12 on Sep 3, 2009 4:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think I'm the only other regular commentor who often agrees with matthan
but in his last couple arguments i found myself on the other side
by RaysTheRoof on Sep 3, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can agree with that
He usually brings me around to at least a compromise position, but lately it seems more outlandish
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly I have to disagree here
Because I haven’t made a real argument for anything lately. What was outlandish? I didn’t make a single argument in this thread. It was just a giant flamefest. Yesterday I asked a question about BJ future worth. My actual opinion (which is pretty hard to find) was that I was very scared of the downside, but I did think he’d end up as one of the best players in baseball. So I don’t think I was outlandish. Again there was a lot of flames around that. Although that isn’t just my fault.
I think the reaction I get when I post, and the flames/talking trash that then ensues makes me seem far more outlandish and radical than what I am. Perhaps it is my posting style, or perhaps it is my reputation. I dunno. But for example the reality is I am more bullish on Upton than most. And in the future I should probably just get straight to my opinion instead of trying to frame it in an interesting or provoking way.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reminds me of when me and Napoleon were about 20 beers deep and he said he could out arm wrestle me
I told him, with those little nubs he didn’t have a chance. Great times.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You phrased the BJ thing terribly, which is why everyone basically flung shit at you.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably so, but I guess I get the fe
Like when I asked posters why they’d take BJ over Ellsbury
I guess I was looking for “He will get healthy, better track record, better defense, etc” instead of a ton of “Screw you matthan” type responses. It just seemed like way too many percieved it as a Ellsbury was better than Upton comment rather than a how do you think Upton will perform in the future. From my point of view I could have plugged any CF name into the question instead of Ellsbury. But that is my fault.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No you didn't.
I tried to have a reasonable debate. So did others. You chose not to ignore the BS. Ignore the BS.
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was most certainly what I was looking for
And yes I have trouble ignoring the flames. Although why should a poster have to ignore flames and personal attacks towards him? Shouldn’t it be up to the mods to filter that crap out? I realize I have a problem with responding. If someone says crap to me then I’m going to respond. Which is why these threads get 500 posts. However if someone would just cut the flames out then I’d never respond to them. I guess I need better self control.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't change the world by pounding people in the head with a rock.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta use a sledge in this day and age
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats what I try to do
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then you fail miserably
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do
But so does everyone on this site.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
It’s bad process to yell over the chorus.
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I beg to differ
I didn’t flame but you kept coming back trying to disprove me. Yes, you do get flamed, but don’t act like the world is out to get you.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
I think everyone wants to get the last word in and things never die that way
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just defend myself
If people are going to act like douches then I’m going to respond to them. It is that simple
The problem is this format. Sometimes it can be hard to tell who is responding to who. Very often I am talking seriously with one poster while in a flame war with another. Sometimes they get crossed. I’d prefer to just have real intelligent convos, but it is impossible with the lack of moderation that goes on here.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meh. Take a page out of bobr's playbook then and focus on making longer, more detailed comments than rapid fire stream-of-consciousness type shit.
You’ll get the kind of comments and interaction you want then.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because they question you or comment doesnt make them a douche
It’s ok to have an argument or conversation, but don’t feel that you always have to defend yourself.
I don’t think I was acting like a douche, but you kept coming back. I dont personally care, but maybe other people in that situation see that as being a troll, or being a jerk and it sets them off.
www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer
by Buc Wild on Sep 3, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My actual opinion (which is pretty hard to find) was that I was very scared of the downside, but I did think he’d end up as one of the best players in baseball.
I don’t think you ever once stated that.
You asked if we would trade BJ for Bellsburry. You said your heart says no, but your head says yes.
When confronted about it you did a raymondo and changed your argument.
by rglass44 on Sep 3, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He made that statement very deep into the thread, after the argument had all ready gone the way of Dresden.
by Suttree on Sep 3, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great reference and apt
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus his Ayn Rand reference
Don’t think because no one commented it went unnoticed.
by Mulva on Sep 3, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I rec'd it.
Your source for replacement level commentary
by RATW on Sep 3, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's got the whoooole world, on his back
He’s got the whole wide world, on his back
Embrace Eternity
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 3, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is because of the downside
BJ does scare me. I do think BJ will end up as one of the best players in baseball, but the downside risk is just too scary. I’d rather have someone that I can more accurately predict. Again it is not Ellsbury in particular. I’d just rather have a player I know that has a shot at being good rather than a player that has a decent shot at sucking or great.
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me rephrase. I'd rather have a player that I know will be good compared to a play that have a huge range of possibilities
Can David Ortiz please send Dioner Navarro some of his PED's? K? Thanks
by matthan on Sep 3, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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