Fred McGriff and the Hall of Fame: 2010 Edition
The reality of Fred McGriff's candidacy for Cooperstown didn't set in until yesterday, when the Rays announced the media availability with him contingent on his induction. It has been half of a decade since McGriff took his last Major League cut before his last Major League cut. Almost 2,030 days have passed since number 493 sailed into the stands. The presence of McGriff in the organization and around the area has faded the memories of his ungraceful exit from playing.
As of this writing, McGriff has roughly 21% of recorded votes. 75% is the minimum for enshrinement. It's not happening this year unless a large contingency of BBWAA voters love the Crime Dog. Love is what a lot of us hold towards McGriff. For many years he was the closest thing we had to a superstar. Heck, to a good player. Carlos Pena invokes memories of the best aspects of McGriff's game; the unmistakable smile, the left-handed power stroke, and bodacious dingers. Truth be told, Pena has done it better as a Ray than McGriff did it as a Devil Ray, but first time experiences always retain more sentimental value.
Truth be told, most of us probably followed McGriff before he ever wore the black and purple threads synonymous with our team. For years McGriff spent time with Atlanta. America's team in the sense that they were one of the few teams with national broadcasts on TBS in times before YES or Extra Innings. Ask the Montreal Expos how big the Braves were during that time. McGriff was the slugging first baseman with a helicopter follow-through and a series of baseball training commercials entrenched in pop culture history. It's called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Numbers, and if Tom Emanski commercials don't constitute fame, then what does?
Joe Posnanski summed up McGriff's candidacy by saying:
McGriff has a powerful Hall of Fame case. He hit 493 home runs. He put up a 134 OPS+, which is excellent. He hit 30-plus homers 10 times -- twice led the league -- and he drove in 100-plus runs eight times. He would not be anywhere close to the worst player in the Hall of Fame.
But McGriff's argument is sort of the opposite of Mattingly's: At no point was Fred McGriff one of the best players in baseball. He only once managed 30 Win Shares, which is sort of the MVP cutoff point, and he wasn't an especially good defensive first baseman, and he could not run and so on. To me, if you are going to get to the Hall of Fame entirely on your bat, you need to hit at a historic pace -- like Edgar Martinez or Mark McGwire did. McGriff, I think, is a notch or two below Martinez and McGwire. I think he's probably a notch below his contemporary Will Clark, who did not get much Hall of Fame consideration.
But McGriff was really good, and I expect to re-examine his case for the next few years.
Here begins the problem with McGriff and the Hall. Rally's WAR has McGriff as the 165th best position player (nearly 100 spots ahead of Jim Rice, mind you) which is respectable, but also below players like Robin Ventura, John Olerud, and even Andre Dawson. Dawson's victory is of the pyrrhic (and undeserving based on your criteria) variety. Still, it stands as one that McGriff can build hope with.
I do not believe the Hall of Fame as the ultimate talent barometer. I do believe Tim Raines is better than Jim Rice and multiple other plaques already held within the storied walls. I do not believe that players should be purposely held back on first ballot votes just because. I do believe the Hall is a fantastic resource for baseball history though, and I do believe the Hall means more to the players than we can even begin to quantify.
McGriff played in a combined 3,048 Major League regular season, post-season, and minor league games. If each game lasted around three hours, then McGriff spent at least 9,144 hours on a baseball field. That does not include All Star appearances, spring training, traveling, conditioning, or just generally hanging out at the ball field. It does not include high school or little league time either. 9,144 hours is a lot of time. There are only 8,760 hours in a year. Fred McGriff has spent more than a year of his life on various diamonds across North America.
No sane individual commits that much of his time towards anything, be it hobby or spouse or even self, unless it's a necessity. Either for money or soul, McGriff needed baseball. He still needs baseball. Old DRB columnist and McGriff co-host Matt Sammon has told me in the past that many voters have assured McGriff that he will one day grace the Halls. Those folks will one day write up McGriff as the clean slugger; the white knight amongst tainted pawns, fraudulent kings, and chemistry major queens. Truth be told, that's like labeling him the dumbest kid in the class. Right or wrong, whether McGriff enhanced or not does nothing for me.
Popular to contrary belief, numbers do not and have never driven my passion for baseball. I was a fan before I read Nate Silver or Jonah Keri, before I bought The Book or made my first WAR spreadsheet, I was a fan in part because of players like Fred McGriff. The Hall of Fame isn't a good measure of performance or talent. In 150 years though, I won't be here (and neither will anyone else who saw McGriff play) to tell folklore about McGriff's swing. But that silly old plaque will. As will part of my baseball fandom.
I'll admit this is an odd situation. I'm someone who prides himself in mostly objective analysis. To wish for someone's entry based mostly on subjective reasoning is probably going to have me labeled a hypocrite or something equally negative. At the same time I didn't even vote McGriff on the SBN HOF ballot because I thought we were trying to produce a true barometer of performance. I guess my only defense is that McGriff is the first player with the potential to get into the Hall who did more than simply suit up as a Ray. The very first player. Don't we all want that first time feeling to come sooner than later?
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Fun fact: McGriff finished shy of 500 homers but his HR/AB is higher than five members of the 500 HR club: Eddie Murray, Mel Ott, Rafael Palmeiro, Ernie Banks, and Gary Sheffield. Seven home runs over the course of a career being the difference between HOF and no HOF is silly.
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Damn the 1994 strike.
McGriff would’ve hit the magic 500 home run mark, would’ve had a 40 HR season, and went over 2,500 hits. All things that would’ve greatly enhanced his candidacy in the eyes of some.
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by Tommy Rancel on Jan 6, 2010 8:07 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Yes that strike cost 50 games in '94 and 18 in '95
Hopefully but probably not, that should be taken into consideratiuon
No way, no how
I don’t see how Crime Dog gets in other than if the voters also have a sentimental crush. Longevity is great, but in my mind, you have to have to put together a string of really great years.
HERE is a look at:
For single seasons, From 1986 to 2004, Starting w/ #200, Played 50% of games at 1B, (requiring RBI>=0 and At least 502 plate appearances), sorted by greatest Adjusted OPS+
Basically this ranks all seasons by OPS+ for players that played at least 50% of their games at 1B during McGriffs career from 1986 – 2004. Not sure why they threw that RBI search term in, but I didn’t want to adjust what they spit out.
McGriff is highlighted, as you can see, had the 25, 26, 40, 50, 70, 79, 86, 89, 171, 210, 211, 262, 269, and 292nd best seasons for a 1B during his career. McGriff is very deserving of the Hall of Very Good and my opinion would not change if he had hit the arbitrary points of 500 homers and 2500 hits.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 6, 2010 9:45 AM EST reply actions
We're talking about the BBWAA version of the Hall.
Andre Dawson is about to get in and Jim Rice has already. I’d say a large chunk of the formula involves sentimental crushes.
by R.J. Anderson on Jan 6, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe this sounds strange from an old school mentality, but i have zero interest
on these awards
I’ve yet to read a baseball writer incorporate stats that have a true meaning of a player’s worth
I'm a baseball writer
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 6, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
The best part is if the BBWAA doesn't give you an award, like an MVP or ra CY, then your HOF chances automatically seem to dip.
by R.J. Anderson on Jan 6, 2010 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
Hitske has a ROY
I hope he makes it some day.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 6, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Yep
Hinske and Glaus puts them over the top.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 6, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Frank Wren is still trying to reach a deal with Bay and/or Holliday
If you will it, it is no dream
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 6, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Garza pitched a few big playoff games.
He should be close.
by R.J. Anderson on Jan 6, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
DAVE STEWART
BEST BIG GAME PITCHER OF OUR LIFETIME.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 6, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
I've never thought McGriff was a Hall of Famer and still don't.
But over the past couple months Tommy and others have helped me see that his career was a lot more impressive than I first thought. If he was a slick-fielding first baseman in the Mattingly mold or could have held down average defense at 2B/3B/SS/CF, he’d definitely be deserving.
Beyond the Boxscore Not a member? Sign up.
Defense? Hello! .992 Fielding Percentage
Also, Tom Emanski videos. Crime Dog was all about defense.
www.draysbay.com, www.beyondtheboxscore.com, Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Jan 6, 2010 11:16 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I never see the Tom Emanski commercials anymore.
This makes me sad.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 6, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
Hadn't realized this was McGwire's fourth HOF ballot.
Put him in already. Nobody made you the holy protectors of the game.
Should be a great speech
“I’m not here to talk about the past”
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jan 6, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
216 OPS+ in 98
2 normal players in a lineup were not equal to one McGwire that year!
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 6, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
This is just silly.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 6, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Voting for the hall is so subjective
Baseball stats were archaic for so long (in the mainstream they still are somewhat). Looking backwards different players appear better than they did at the time while others appear worse. It is a real challenge.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Buster seems to be using SABR driven stats at times now.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 6, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Mainstream acceptance is definitely improving
As for HoF voting, the reality is that the elite players of their times in some cases weren’t. While people slept on some great ones. So how do you vote? What we know now, or what we knew then? It makes for interesting debate. The challenge will be in the next 30 years, now that the public is wiser, will we stop using the old comps to evaluate this generations players?
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Call me crazy
but I’m not 100% behind the HoF being only about a players stats. Their “place in the game” comes into play a bit IMO.
For example, say Ichiro retired 3-4 years ago. Do his numbers alone at that time say he’s a HOF’er? Maybe, maybe not. But the fact that he was the first Japanese hitter to break that barrier would put him in…along with his numbers.
A very bad comparison would be Joe Namath. He’s numbers were VERY mediocre but he’s in the Hall because of the guarantee. Winning that Super Bowl helped make the NLF what it is today (NFL & AFL merger)
Say what you want about what the HoF actually means in the grand scheme of things but it’s more than just numbers.
/RJ lights me up.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 6, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
I'm sort of with you
Impact on the game can be a reason to get in. So can stats. The media takes themselves to seriously. The HoF after all, is a museum of the game.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Is Larry Doby in the HoF?
If not, he should be.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 6, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Steward of the game
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 6, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
This supports the placement of Jose Canseco in the Hall.
by R.J. Anderson on Jan 6, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
40/40?
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 6, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
Being the White Knight of Steroids I guess.
Without looking, I bet Canseco has better numbers than Rice too.
by R.J. Anderson on Jan 6, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
This same logic puts Rae Carruth in the football Hall of Fame.
I miss George Steinbrenner. He was the man responsible for keeping the Yankees competitive.
Also is there a definition of a hall of famer?
Can someone make it for some reasons such as several incredible post-season accomplishments well beyond their true talent level, while others could be monsters who never made the post-season? And others could have had very short careers but been at the absolute top of the game, while others were very good for extremely long periods of time? I am okay with this.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
There seems to be different measures for everyone.
Edgar Martinez had a ridiculous ALDS, yet it doesn’t carry the same weight as a WS. That’s probably fair, but why doesn’t that come up more instead of “He was a DH.”?
by R.J. Anderson on Jan 6, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
I hate the DH argument
Its part of the game, the HoF should be represented in all aspects, including DH’s and relievers, to base stealers. Its not a super exclusive club already, instead it should be viewed as a celebration of the game. If Edgar threw on a glove and played a terrible 1B, no one would have held it against him.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Also: pinch hitting/DHing is probably the hardest offensive aspect.
Most act like it’s an offensive booster. It’s generally not.
by R.J. Anderson on Jan 6, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
He was pretty gritty
Check out those WP numbers, yowza he’s on fire. From 1979-1987, he was mostly pretty well above-average. Seems to me he would fit in nicely at the Hall of Above-Average.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 6, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Here's Jack's regular season FIP by year, using a conservative constant of 3.15
4.57
4.56
4.15
4.33
4.13
4.94
3.73
4.02
3.99
4.27
4.47
3.85
4.58
4.29
3.90
4.12
4.63
4.49
4.23
4.26
4.24
4.32
3.90
4.49
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 6, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
And out of fairness to Crime Dog, I took a look at Jack's contemporaries by ERA+
For single seasons, From 1977 to 1994, (requiring earned_run_avg_plus>=100, At least 85% games started and At least 162 Innings Pitched), sorted by greatest Adjusted ERA+
CLICK HERE to see the Google Doc of all pitchers by ERA+ from 1977 – 1994.
Sneak Peak, out of 800 Seasons here are Morris’s ranks:
157
218
231
251
259
285
375
553
743
794
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 6, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Greg Maddux had an OPS+ against of 34 in 1994!!! The strike didn't just hurt batters.
those who truly watched Greg Maddux know they were watching a hall of famer. (sic)
I thought when you go to writing school they teach you about using the same tense throughout a sentence.
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 6, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
OH HELL YEAH!
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 6, 2010 1:07 PM EST reply actions
BOUT GD TIME
Chris Mullin is still shooting 1.000 for his Jam career as far as I know
I'm a writer.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 6, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Exclusive to the Wii.
That’s ROFLCopter, not because it’s exclusive to the Wii as much as EA’s saying, "Well, we know Wii owners want a basketball game, but we can’t give them NBA live because the Wii won’t run it. Let’s give them NBA Jam instead.’
Just remember, NBA Jam isn’t coming to the Wii because the fans demanded a new NBA Jam. It’s coming so that Wii owners can stop bitching about not having sports games.
I miss George Steinbrenner. He was the man responsible for keeping the Yankees competitive.
Also
PriceMultiCy is not worried since he has a wii since it is a white console unlike that darn PS3.
At leat make a real attempt to call me racist. That was terrible.
FWIW, I have PS3.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 6, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
I'll tell you what.
I’ve been a Miami fan since grade school but when I spend time around “typical” Miami fans it really makes me think twice about switching my allegiance to another team.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 6, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
I actually think I would like the TEAM and only the team
they are fun to watch, athletic, a little bit of a cockyness. But every kid I know that goes to that damn school is a wanna be Jersey Shore person. I seriously can not stand it and I want them to fail at every sport just because of that.
It does make it hard to say I'm a Canes fan when I'm around that.
What you said about the actual team is why I like them.
I'm a Brett Favre honk so FUCK YOU!
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Jan 6, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Whatever I just wait till a player I like is in the NFL then I become a fan.
I want to try and go to the tOSU vs. UM at the Shoe next year if my dad and I don’t get the Michigan tickets.
I'll get it if it has Mike Izzulino
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Iuzzolino rather
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Roberto Alomar not getting in is a joke
He’s a top 5 2B of all-time. This is why I cannot stand the Hall of Fame sometimes, because of these stupid biases they have in regards to not letting players, no matter how awesome they may be, in on the first ballot.
He’ll get in next year, so I’m not worried about it, but it’s still unbelievably retarded.
Hello.
The fro is unbelievable
Desean Jackson is one hell of a guy
by 4QB on Jan 6, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
The BBWAA are infants.
Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

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