Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Ohio State And Florida Target 2013 Receiver Recruits

Does Veteran Starting Pitching Matter in the World Series?

The front office's favorite commenter, SternFan1 offered up his first of what are sure to be his many concerns over the upcoming season in a thread last week:

 

My only reservation is the lasck of experience this rotation has

I think the talent is there, but will it measure up come crunch time?

 

At first glance, it seems a pretty easy statement to disregard. We know it was proven in The Book that pitchers over adequate sample sizes generally pitch to their true talent level in leverage splits. It concludes that you should use your best relievers in the most important spots.

It would seem the same could be said for pitching in the biggest games aka the World Series. You would think in adequate sample sizes "young pitcher nerves" and "veteran mettle" would be little more than media talking points. My intuition was to disagree with SF1, but I generally like to have some data on my side. If I am going to put in this much leg work, my findings will be posted regardless of any conclusions drawn.

Star-divide

The Study

The sample will consist of all World Series starts over the past 10 years (2000-2009) or 106 total starts. The median starting age for a World Series pitcher was 29 years-old. We will put the younger half of the pitchers in one group, and the 30+ in the second group to test their veteran mettle. I composed a crude aggregate FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching for each group. The term crude is used because I only used BB (did not adjust for IBB or HBP) and also used a FIP constant of 3.2. Obviously, this varies from season-to-season and from league-to-league. For reference the average margin between the leagues has revealed the AL constant to be about .09 higher from 2000-2009.

The aggregate FIP does not tell enough because we don't know what each grouping's true talent level is for comparison. I decided to use two baselines. The first is the average FIP for the group for the season. The second baseline is to weight each player's FIP for the season by his % of the group's World Series innings pitched. For example if a pitcher pitched 5 innings of a 200 inning sample, his season FIP would be weighted by 2.5%.

The major flaw of the study is the FIP constant used. However, I remain unsure of how best to adjust for league. In the World Series, some games are played under DH rules, while in others the pitcher must bat (Damn you Joe Blanton!). I certainly welcome constructive feedback.

The Data

The workbooks are available here: Workbook

 

The Results


Well I'll be darned if ol' SternFan didn't have shreds of truth to his blind assertion.  The group of pitchers under 30 years of age posted an aggregate World Series FIP of 4.53 in 55 starts covering 308 innings. This compares to their average FIP over the season of 4.02 and a weighted FIP of 4.01. The younger group of pitchers seems to have underperformed their FIP by about 0.50. This is well beyond a discrepancy of league FIP constants.

The veterans (30+) posted an aggregate World Series FIP of 3.58.  This compares to their average FIP of 3.95 and a weighted FIP of 3.88 during the season. They readily outperformed both benchmarks.

So the wheels are turning a little bit. What could be the cause? We know that the older group was a better class of ptichers based on their season numbers. What if we were to combine all pitchers above the overall median FIP of 3.97 regardless of age, and those below the median FIP?

The aggregate World Series FIP for the better pitchers was 3.52. For the same group the average regular season FIP was 3.40 and the weighted FIP was 3.35. So when the better pitchers are combined regardless of age, they slightly under-perform their true talent in the World Series.

The aggregate World Series FIP for the pitchers with FIPs north of 3.97 was 4.64. This compares to the average regular season FIP and weighted FIP of 4.59. The lesser pitchers also slightly underperformed their true talent level. This means the more skilled younger pitchers really pulled the overall skilled pitcher pool down. We can hypothesize that the evidence found supporting age being a factor in a pitcher's World Series performance is not a result of the older pitchers merely being more talented.

Finally, I wanted to test the performance of the American League starters versus the National League. Intuitively, you would expect the AL pitchers to possibly outperform their season FIP because they are now facing pitchers in some of the games as opposed to the designated hitter. Likewise, National League pitchers would have to face DH's for the first time. In reality the National League pitchers performed at their level while the American Leaguers slightly underperformed, close enough to assume statistical noise. The findings are summarized in the tables below:

 

wsFIP=World Series FIP, aFIP=Average FIP, wFIP= Weighted FIP

wsIP

wsFIP

aFIP

wFIP

<30 Years

308

4.53

4.02

4.01

> 29 Years

308.2

3.58

3.95

3.88

FIP < 3.98

323.2

3.52

3.4

3.35

FIP > 3.97

293

4.64

4.59

4.59

AL

301.1

4.15

3.97

3.95

NL

315.1

3.97

4

3.94

 

While not conclusive, there was far more evidence to support SternFan's concern that the Rays' pitching staff's inexperience could be a negative factor in the playoffs than I initially would have expected. Of the three variables tested for (age, skill, and league), only age provided any meaningful discrepancy  between big game performance and true talent level. Having said that there does not mean young pitchers cannot experience World Series success, right Josh Beckett? The Rays will continue to organically grow their own pitching to maintain low costs at a position where injuries are frequent and severe.  As Billy Beane emphasized in Michael Lewis's Moneyball, once you are confined to the small sample size of a seven game series, luck becomes far more prevalent in the determination of outcomes.

 

Finally, just for fun, I will leave you with the top 10 World Series performances as ranked by FIP:

 

Year

Pitcher

Age

HR

BB

K

IP

FIP

yFIP

2001

Roger Clemens

39

0

1

10

6.3

0.5

3.29

2000

Roger Clemens

38

0

0

9

8

0.95

4.33

2009

Cliff Lee

31

0

0

10

9

0.98

3.11

2000

Rick Reed

36

0

1

8

6

1.03

4.43

2003

Mike Mussina

35

0

1

9

7

1.06

3.09

2007

Josh Beckett

27

0

1

9

7

1.06

3.08

2001

Randy Johnson

38

0

1

11

9

1.09

2.13

2005

Brandon Backe

27

0

0

7

7

1.2

4.8

2001

Curt Schilling

35

0

1

8

7

1.34

3.11

2009

AJ Burnett

32

0

2

9

7

1.49

4.33

Comment 54 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Right under "Study"...

…you said it was from years 1990-1999. I think you meant 2000-2009.

by TampaFL on Feb 25, 2010 7:58 AM EST reply actions  

Thanks, will fix

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Feb 25, 2010 8:05 AM EST up reply actions  

While obviously i wouldn't even know how to begin to

reasearch my comclusion thta you’ve done here, i again offer a couple suggestions

1- I’d guess pitchers 30+ have more post season experience than younger ones

2- While i know it would be impossible to research, i often wonder how many times the older pitcher gets the close calls on balls and strikes.

Thanks for the mention Z-man—keep it rockin

Stu—Sign Los NOW

by sternfan1 on Feb 25, 2010 7:59 AM EST reply actions  

Jamie Moyer never got any close calls

especially in the World Series

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Feb 25, 2010 9:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Go get a tape of the '95 WS and take a look at the

“strike zone” afforded Glavine and Maddux

Yes i realize they weren’t in the 30+ category at that time but nonetheless it is a big factor

by sternfan1 on Feb 25, 2010 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I think/hope he's just being facetious.

Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

by PlayOnWords on Feb 25, 2010 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

About the '95 WS? Hell no, i'm dead on and

it was so much discussed it led to the further use of tecnology

Seriously, check it out

by sternfan1 on Feb 25, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I also don't understand your first chart...

>29 years (greater than 29 years, or older than 29) has a 4.53 wsFIP while <30 years (less than 30 years, or younger than 30) has a 3.58 wsFIP. That would lead me to believe than the younger players are better. Am I reading that wrong, or did you reverse the symbols?

Great research and an interesting read. Thanks!

by TampaFL on Feb 25, 2010 8:07 AM EST reply actions  

You were correct

At first post I had mislabeled the two but they were corrected. It should read correct now (which matches what was written). The older group outperformed, while the young guns underperformed. It’s too bad we didn’t have pitch fx for most of the study to look into veteran bias with umpires.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Feb 25, 2010 8:18 AM EST up reply actions  

This may not be statistically relevant, but what is the talent level of each pitcher by age?

To put it on the extreme side, if all the pitchers 29 and under were #4 starters and all the old dudes were #1 or #2 starters, this would seem to lend itself to these conclusions also.

Hit Buc 'Em for all your Bucs news and DRaysBay for every piece of Rays info.

by Buc Wild on Feb 25, 2010 8:21 AM EST reply actions  

We know that the overall talent level of the old guys was slightly higher than the young guys

Old Avg FIP 3.95 vs Young 4.02

That was a theory I had to which led me to test for above and below the median FIP of 3.97. When you add the above average youngsters with the above average old guys, the underperformance of the youngsters brings the overall group back to its true talent level.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Feb 25, 2010 8:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I think the logic follows that old guys are going to generally be better because young bad/borderline pitchers are weeded out.

Unless they play for really bad teams who need innings eaters. And those teams aren’t playing in the World Series.

Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

by PlayOnWords on Feb 25, 2010 9:13 AM EST up reply actions  

This makes sense for why they have a better FIP as group over the season

But why would they outperform their true talent level as a group, while the young pitchers pitched worse than usual?

And when you break the overall group up by skill level instead of age, both groups performed near their true talent levels.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Feb 25, 2010 9:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Because you see better hitters throughout the WS than the regular season.

Great hitters feast on mediocre pitching. So when those decent starters pitch in the series they get lit up. While the great pitchers continue to pitch well (if not better because they don’t have to hold back or worry about pitch limits).

by rglass44 on Feb 25, 2010 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but then the 2nd point

Looks like you addressed below which was similar to my thought process.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Feb 25, 2010 9:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it has more to do with getting to the postseason numerous times. Not for the experience factor in-game, but for the knowledge of how to prepare your body.

Playing an extra month of very tense baseball can take a toll on any player, much less a young arm that probably pitched more in the regular season than the year prior in the first place. Guys might be gassed. I don’t think there’s a phantasmal (one luv, Sutt) trigger that makes batters in the WS better or young pitchers worse.

Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

by PlayOnWords on Feb 25, 2010 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Batters in the WS are better.

You face the Yanks, Sawx, Phils, Cards, etc. rather than the Pirates, Jays, Royals, etc.

by rglass44 on Feb 25, 2010 9:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Not disagreeing with you.

I don’t think its any one reason.

Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

by PlayOnWords on Feb 25, 2010 9:24 AM EST up reply actions  

What about WS experience vs. Non-experience?

I would think that might play a factor. The Rays have 3 (possibly 4 with Sonny) who have WS experience.

If I am commenting you need to hear it.

by DeadeyeRR on Feb 25, 2010 8:54 AM EST reply actions  

How many pitchers are in each sample?

How do they bunch team-wise? Also, how could the steroid factor play in to lengthening a pitcher’s career or making them more durable longer? Is there a trend-line you can point to?

by rglass44 on Feb 25, 2010 9:13 AM EST reply actions  

I'll take a look team-wise.

One thing I did consider was that they were stretched out more than the younger groups. Those who are still pitching effectively past 30 have pretty rubber arms. The longer season may break some younger arms down.

I’m not sure what type of trend-line you are referring to?

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Feb 25, 2010 9:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd love to come to the same conclusion

Thats what led me to the exercise. However, as you said he used one year of data and didn’t compare it against any sort of expected baseline. The result while not definitive, was surprising. I’m not done playing with it and may do a followup fanpost later if time permits.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Feb 25, 2010 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Nice post on Weeks, you Judas.

He’s one of the most exciting/frustrating players in baseball.

Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

by PlayOnWords on Feb 25, 2010 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Isn't StB a less fast, less injury prone, smoother defending version?

I don’t know about the defense, though. I’m going on what I’ve read about StB.

Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

by PlayOnWords on Feb 25, 2010 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

The bro-mance between Weeks and Prince is like supercharged homoeroticism, btw.

My buddy and I in WI have this running joke about Prince staring longingly at the spot on the couch in the clubhouse where Rickie used to sit and play PS3 (after his inevitable injuries). A lonely controller.

Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

by PlayOnWords on Feb 25, 2010 10:05 AM EST up reply actions  

How do you do that?

I find that incredibly fun, for some reason.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Feb 25, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

What was the website where you could input dialogue and robot voies would act it out?

Those cracked me up, but I can’t find it. We’re going to need that on hand for once the crazies come.

Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Feb 25, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Jesus. We've gotten too lazy to conduct our own Google searches?

When the machines wake up, we’re toast.

Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

by PlayOnWords on Feb 25, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Very cool research.

It’s hard to argue with those results. That’s a nice large sample size and the difference seems quite robust. This seems to go against one of our saber truisms, but it does make intuitive sense if this is the case.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Feb 25, 2010 10:34 AM EST reply actions  

Future Mayor of Tampa
Carlos Pena, who is entering his contract year, called Tampa Bay “the best place on Earth to play baseball.”
“I understand markets. I understand what I could be worth, I’m not blind to that,” said Pena, who will make $10.125 million this season. “But I think it would be silly for me to ignore what this team means to me. It would be just absolutely silly. I would be lying to myself and everyone else if I just said I don’t care. It’s not true. Even though I consider myself an intelligent person, very well-educated about the business of baseball, I think it’s going to be a balance.” It’s worth noting that Pena is represented by Scott Boras, so as much as we want to believe his desire to stay in Tampa Bay, we have a hard time seeing him avoid the open market, similar to outfielder Carl Crawford, who is also in his contract year.

Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

by PlayOnWords on Feb 25, 2010 11:01 AM EST reply actions  

Agreed.

He could make a great Rays color man.

by rglass44 on Feb 25, 2010 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

He wasn't a catcher

Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Feb 25, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

YET

Just wait ’till Navi is DFA

by ChiBurbRaysFan on Feb 25, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Well he's got sufficient melatonin.

I miss George Steinbrenner. He was the man responsible for keeping the Yankees competitive.

by kericr on Feb 25, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure Boras is as big a factor with Pena

I was surprised when we signed him to the three year deal after his break out season. He hasn’t repeated that and is on the wrong side of 30. I don’t see why we couldn’t get another hometown discount- and as has been mentioned here ad nauseum, we have no clear successor at 1B while we do in the OF.

by TampaFL on Feb 25, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I have no problems giving Pena another three year deal.

Everybody brings up the old player’s skills in his 30’s, but Pena is much more athletic than that stereotype.

by Suttree on Feb 25, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

It's not my money, but 3/24 again should be doable from management side. I'd even consider a 2/19 with an option for a 3rd at 11

Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Feb 25, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

1B market is not thin this year, either.

Mira Sorvino...Paul Walker...T-Pain...Fall 2010...HEADSTONE MAFIA, A LOVE STORY OF REVENGE. "5/5 stars!!!" - DRB User "Andy Hellicksonstine"

by PlayOnWords on Feb 25, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Pena is still only 31

So that would be money well spent. Hopefully Malm or somebody is ready by then.

by benderbrodriguez on Feb 25, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Founded in 2005, DRaysBay is home to, "Progressive statistical analysis and reasoned argument."

Please read our Community Guidelines.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Zobrist vs Pedroia vs Cano
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #31 Runoff

Recent FanPosts

Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #37
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #35
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #34
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #33
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #32
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #31
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #30 (Again)
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #30 Runoff

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Jeff Bagwell, Fred McGriff, The Hall of Fame, and 400 Home Runs
ESPN Chat with Matt Moore
Danny Clyburn: 1974-2012
Joe Maddon Town Hall Contest
Hickey said as of now all of the starters -- Wade Davis, Jeff Niemann,...
White Sox sign Dan Johnson
Indians acquire Canzler
Justin Ruggiano to Elect Free Agency
Dougdirt over at MinorLeagueBall compiled John Sickels' rankings with WAR values from Victor Wang's research.

Thread here.
The increasingly desperate search for offense has caused some teams to...

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

DRB Fantasy Baseball

Friends of the Site

DRB Suggestion Box

Drb4_medium


Managers

Slowsky__1__small Steve Slowinski

Dad_small Jason Collette

Brad_small BWoodrum

Price_small Erik Hahmann

Analysts

Lob-city_design_small rglass44

Untitled_small EminenceFront

Small Mulva

Rutg_uakjmedjwh9ndzd4lkll_small Imperialism32

100_1952_small MrNegative1

Steak-with-crown_small CBJones

Whelk_small Whelk

Small PGP

Scaled_php_small mr. maniac

Tampa_theatre_small jcmitchell

Me_small John Gregg