Moments with Maddon, Pt. 2
I had so much fun with the last Moments with Maddon, I figured what the hey, let's do it again. Here's another hypothetical situation for you to ponder...
Bottom of the seventh inning, no outs. Gabe Kapler is on first, Dioner Navarro is at the plate, and Jason Bartlett on deck. The Rays are facing the Yankees and the score is currently tied at four. A.J. Burnett is on the mound, but the Yanks have right-handers Phil Hughes and Alfredo Aceves warming in the pen. The Rays' bench is still full and consists of Kelly Shoppach, Willy Aybar, Sean Rodriguez, and Matt Joyce.
The situation might seem similar to last week, but it's got a couple of its own intricacies. If you need even more information than what I have provided you with, feel free to fill in the blanks yourself and answer in the comments below.
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If Burnett is starting
Wouldn’t be Joyce on first and Kapler on the bunch?
"That was a lot of fun… You just keep pounding balls into the gap. The one thing you don’t want to do is hit a home run. That’s a rally-killer." Jeff Francoeur
Yeah, true
I can’t claim that these scenarios are always going to be 100% spot on. I’m trying to make them as realistic as possible, but it can be tough (especially at 2 in the morning, which was simply a poor choice on my part).
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Feb 27, 2010 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
Assuming there is a lefty available in the Yanks pen
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by FreeZorilla on Feb 27, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I don't think teams usually warm up 2 same-handed relievers at once do they?
by ChiBurbRaysFan on Feb 27, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly - the situation is a bit improbable
Burnett wouldn’t likely have pitched to an even more unlikely batting Kapler after giving up 4 runs through 6. Hughes wouldn’t be warming in the 7th. Marte is a much more likely pairing with Aceves – or Robertson, or Park.
And look – I didn’t even make a joke about the unlikeliness about being tied late with the Yanks!
All kidding aside (nice work Steve), gotta pinch hit there with the double play machine coming up and a likely GB oriented RP coming in.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Feb 27, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Actually
if Kapler were batting leading off the 7th, perhaps Burnett would have returned to face he and Navarro, it just seems that Joyce would likely have started.
And NY would very likely have 1 righty and 1 lefty warming.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Feb 27, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah...I would have had a lefty warming up, but I couldn't figure out who the yanks had out there
My memory on their pen is murky and for some reason I missed Marte on their depth chart. Whoops.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Feb 27, 2010 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
I'd tend to agree, and voted this
but Navi does have the ability to sac – led club with 8, next best was Barty’s 4.
This suggests to me that this might be where Madden might lean, trying to avoid the DP, and saving Aybar for a later more critical moment.
I think I’d go with the double switch kericr talked himself out of below. You’re sacrificing neither offense nor defense by batting Joyce, then subbing Shoppach for Kapler, and still have Aybar if another situation arises.
Of course, if Marte was warming as would be much more likely in reality, I would rethink batting Joyce and go with Aybar now.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Feb 27, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
you could always just got with Joyce
and than if they bring in the lefty go with Shoppach (he is going to have to come in anyway). Although you would probably end up with Shoppach vs a righty.
Aybar is a hedge
Why waste your reserve OF, when there is a platoon there?
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If I had to pinch hit (I'd bunt)
I would go with Aybar, but the guy above was worried about saving Aybar for later and I was offering up an alternative.
although if you use Joyce and still have SRod who can play COF if neccesary.
I would let Navi lay the bunt down
depending on the line-up (JB 9/BJ 1) or (JB 1/CC 2). You are going to have 2 good opportunities with guys who put the ball in play in either Bartlett/Upton (assuming his improvement for this year which i see happening) or Bartlett/Crawford. I would rather have those guys with 1 out and decent speed at 2nd than a guy off the bench 0 outs and a guy on first.
I would never let Navi play …..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives."
Jackie Robinson
"People ask me what I do in the winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
—Rogers Hornsby
by walkoff59 on Feb 27, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You could let Joyce pinch hit to take advantage of the platoon against Burnett.
Or you could PH a right-handed hitter and just wait for Burnett to throw a wild pitch curveball eight feet outside.
Bottom of the seventh, no outs, tied against the MF’ing Yankees is no time to even think about trying to sacrifice bunt.
You're better than that, MF'ing Yankees is a classless Red Sox term, I'd pinch hit Joyce to get Burnett out of the game
Make them bring in a lefty for Bartlett up next.
Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Feb 27, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
Thing with Burnett
is that, if there’s one area of his game that has ever been consistent, it’s been his lefty righty splits are fairly even.
Could play into the decision making of Girardi or Maddon to some degree.
by FloridaownsFSU on Feb 27, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
Theres two sides to that coin.
While Burnett may be able to handle lefties, it doesn’t mean right-handed hitters can handle him
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I guess I'm the only one in favor of stealing...
Burnett is long to the plate, Posada is garbage, and a lefty bat is hitting. Pinch Hitting is always an option, but usually you dont wanna pinch hit for your catcher this early in the game.
It's the 7th inning...
And Navarro’s splits against righties in ‘09 were akin to Curtis Granderson’s splits against lefties. The whole bench is still available in this scenario, and I’d probably opt to pinch hit in this case. With whom to pinch hit? I’d lean towards Joyce.
by FloridaownsFSU on Feb 27, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
It's the bottom of the 7th
not exactly early.
And he didn’t say Posada was catching – I’ll ignore the garbage comment – but his career CS is 29%, and was 28% last season. Which was 4th best among AL C with over 700 Inns, with 10 C’s qualifying. Teams did run on him – he was 3rd in att SB’s against despite being 10th in Inns C. But he was also 2nd in CS’s. In this regard at least, “garbage” seems a bit strong.
Kapler’s far from a sure thing here. He’s only successful on 68% of his 31 attempts over the last 7 seasons. Not exactly CC out there. Seems to me you go with your best contact guy or OBP guy and perhaps look to hit and run.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Feb 27, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
Usually you dont PH for your catcher unless it is the 8th or 9th inning...
In a tie game, putting your back up catcher in is considered a bit risky any earlier. I have no problem pinch hitting for Navi here, but it doesnt happen often.
He didnt say Posada was catching, so I errored in assuming that apparently. BTW, ignoring a comment should be followed by not commenting on it, which you chose not to do. In fact, you chose to follow it up with plenty of info.
I'd consider Shoppach as a better overall player than Navarro.
I also don’t see how huge of a difference the 7th inning is from the 8th or 9th, in regards to lifting the starting catcher. Late in the game is late in the game. There’s a good chance the catchers’ spot won’t come up again in the game.
by FloridaownsFSU on Feb 27, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
I agree on the inning. Especially against a team witha lights out closer, this might be the highest leverage opportunity
that they will get.
Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Feb 28, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
If you want to go by the book, you'd never sac.
While I wouldn’t always go by the book, the 7th inning is too early to consider a sac bunt. It’s a tie game and you have to assume you’ll have a better chance or may need to reconsider this option later in the game. Getting 4 runs on Burnett doesn’t show that scoring in this game is necessarily at a premium.
Pinch-hitting is almost always the gut reaction with Navarro at the plate in a situation like this. Since the mound and the bullpen is loaded with Righties, let’s look at all of the players 3-year splits vs. Righties:
Navi: .245/.301/.337
Shoppach: .229/.319/.420
Aybar: .246/.310/.378
Of the players with track records, none of the alternatives is a legitimately better option then Navi. Statistically both are better, but the difference between the three doesn’t allow me to justify the fact that both of these players are better options against Lefties. Joyce doesn’t have enough major league ABs at this time to determine how he is against major-league righties, but he’s left-handed, and his minor-league history indicates that he’s a capable stick against Righties. With Kapler still in the game and already on base however, I don’t see how doing a double-switch now makes much sense.
I think that this senario ultimately boils down to 2 choices: Do you pinch hit Navi for Joyce and do a double-switch at the top of the inning replacing Kapler with Shoppach, or do you send Kapler on a hit-and-run play and try to get Navi to make contact. My guess is the book would say that a double-switch is the right choice. I actually voted for hit-and-run, but the more I thought about it, the more I don’t like my selection. Navi’s a legit double-play candidate, and he struggles making contact. Kapler’s not a good base stealer, but he still has enough speed against this particular platoon to have a chance against a botched hit-and-run play in the senario that Navi whiffs on a pitch (seeing how Navi sucks at making contact and will swing at trash, this is very much possible).
Ultimately, in a lineup configuration where you have 2 holes against Righties back-to-back (Kapler and Navi) and no players with a proven capability to hit major-league right-handed pitching on your bench, I just don’t see much benefit in a double-switch, I’d rather just wait for Kapler to come back around and swap in Joyce right there instead of potentially burning 2 players in one move.
I miss George Steinbrenner. He was the man responsible for keeping the Yankees competitive.
You don't have to double switch
You can PH Joyce, then take him out for Shoppach defensively, and leave Kapler in. Although if Joyce is better defensively, then the double switch makes more sense anyway. There’s not enough UZR data on Joyce, Kapler looks like 0<x<5, so just depends how the Rays feel about Joyce’s D I guess.
by ChiBurbRaysFan on Feb 27, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
I regressed Aybar's wOBA and it came out to .331 vs RHP
Navi is .291 regressed. Shoppach is another option but I see part of Willie’s role as being more accustomed to PHing.
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I screwed up saying Navi has trouble making contact. Navi doesn't have this problem at all actually.
I miss George Steinbrenner. He was the man responsible for keeping the Yankees competitive.
Correct
The combination of the number of weak ground balls he puts in play and the fact that you could time him to first base with a sundial is a definite rally killer.
How can you have any pudding if you haven`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Feb 28, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
He just sucks so bad I compulsively attribute him to failing at everything possible, even after I do research and know better otherwise.
I miss George Steinbrenner. He was the man responsible for keeping the Yankees competitive.
I would never ever let Navi hit in a high leverage situation.
Most likely I’d send in Joyce to PH, and if they send in a lefty to get him, they can either have that lefty face Jason Bartlett who has a career 392 OBP against lefties (a number that is perhaps less than his true talent level, because it has increased increased the last 4 years in a row) or they can have another reliever come in.
Although, if CC is following Bartlett, than perhaps it would just be best to have Aybar pinch hit. Then again, maybe not, because CC doesn’t have that heavy of a platoon split.
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 27, 2010 2:57 PM EST reply actions
Pinch hit Joyce
And if they pull Burnett for one of the righties, then pull Joyce for Shoppach (who would be replacing Navarro behind the plate after the inning anyway).
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"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Though in the scenario there wasn't a lefty warming.
So I’m not sure what you mean’t. But the scenario’s problems are part of the problem.
Might go your route if they brought in Marte, but then what to do with Shoppach. Have him jump in front of a pitch – he’s good at that!. But his K rate is troubling while you might be sending a middling runner.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Feb 27, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
I'm assuming this is the Rays
first homestand of the year. I’m gonna let it ride with Navi to show him that this team has confidence in him and we believe he can and will be a big part of the teams success this year.
For those opting for a pinch hitter, let me put this forth:
Baseball consultant Tom Tango, now in the employ of the Seattle Mariners and Toronto Blue Jays, went through historical pinch-hitting situations in his book (appropriately titled "The Book") and found that, even after accounting for the average pinch-hitter being of lesser ability and facing tougher pitchers in more important situations, pinch-hitters performed at a level roughly 10 percent lower than expected. That’s huge; a 10 percent penalty turns a .300 hitter into a .270 one. That reduction in performance would turn Evan Longoria into Skip Schumaker.
http://www.fangraphs.com/bonus/index.php/hot-stove-u-the-perils-of-pinch-hitting
makes my thoughts about bunting even stronger
I’ll take my chances with Bartlett/Upton or Bartlett/C.C. with 1 out and a runner on 2B.
Exactly
Does the 10% reduction you’re imposing on the PH who’s likely batting from their most productive side get you down to the level of Navi’s ‘09 stats? Just because the average says reduce expectation by 10%, it’s a choice between their productivity and Navi’s.
And I wonder if the average player, or the average of all players, see a performance drop comparable to 10% in higher leverage situations. Because most PH opportunities are going to fall into higher leverage situations. Or did Tango correct for any such drop 1st?
by nyyfaninlaaland on Feb 28, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure on the second bit.
But the first bit isn’t entirely true. You’d have to regress Navarro’s statistics too. So it’s like Navarro’s projection versus Joyce’s projection with the drop worked in.
I don’t think any manager does this or would have the time to do. Really makes you appreciate how few times they really botch it given all the responsibilities and distractions going around.
by R.J. Anderson on Feb 28, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
I have a Navi platoon skill regression post this week
.291 from the left side. I read today where there are 26 MLB players and managers with college degrees. I’m surprised teams don’t employ bench coaches specifically to handle these types of situations. If their job was simply to sit on the bench on gameday and have this type of info ready to go. I;m talking minimal interaction with players, simply Maddons human calculator. It seems it would be a major weapon. Its not far fetched.
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Yeah, I tried to stress this point in my recap from last week
But I don’t know how well it got through. I’ll probably bring it up again briefly when going over this one. When you account for that 10% drop, I feel like there are very few situations were pinch hitting makes sense.
Then again, to play devil’s advocate, this is Navi we’re talking about. If there was any player in the Rays’ lineup to pinch-hit for, it’d be him.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Feb 27, 2010 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly, 18% of the time in 2008 and 2009 he grounded into a double play with a runner on 1st and less than 2 outs.
WIth little chance of a walk, and as limited upside as you get swinging away, I save the out of the bunt and put a bat in someone else’s hands
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Basically I wouldn't have Navi on my roster to be in this situation
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Yeah, personally I think there's no way you let Navi swing away
It’s either a sacrifice bunt or a pinch hitter. The trick is which.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Feb 27, 2010 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Wouldn't a corpse with a 10% penalty still hit better than Navi?
Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Feb 28, 2010 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure.
I didn’t do the math. But say Joyce is a .350 wOBA hitter versus a righty and Aybar is .340 versus either hand and that Navarro is like .300 either way. The difference isn’t as big as you’d naturally assume. I really do love the dimensions of this though.
by R.J. Anderson on Feb 28, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
I cannot see playing for one run
by sacrificing, not against the Yankees when they still have 6 outs left. No matter how good the bullpen is, does anyone really want to trust them with a 1 run lead against that team for 2 full innings if you have a reasonable chance to score more?
Maybe, just maybe, if it were the bottom of the 8th.
Right, Yankees scored 324 runs last year in innings 7-9 and there were plenty of times they did not bat in the 9th
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Gotta factor in that we're playing in the Trop and not Yankee Stadium though.
I don’t know the exact totals, but it’s a lowered run environment. Certainly not enough to make one run more valuable than two with that much time left though.
by R.J. Anderson on Feb 27, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
You have to trust your bullpen's 1-2
Especially when it’s JP and Soriano.
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 27, 2010 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
Its not a lack of trust
If you trust them and you fail to score a run you believe you will safely make it to extra frames.
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Precisely.
The Yankees scored 915 runs last year, and I think we can expect something in the same range this year. That is better than 5.5 runs per game, better than 1.5 runs per inning. Of course the Rays “trust” Howell and Soriano, but you still want to build as big a lead as possible against an offense like that. R.J. makes a good point; still, I don’t think the Rays should aim at 1 run in that situation.
Put it another way. Do we trust the top of our order to score against a tiring Burnett and/or the Yankee set up men? Trust is not the issue (I should not have used that word in my post). It is a matter of maximizing your chance to win. I imagine the Yankees “trust” Rivera to hold a one run lead, but would still prefer he pitch with 2 or 3 run leads.
I love looking at the poll results for these things
It’s not so easy now, is it?
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Feb 27, 2010 11:17 PM EST reply actions
Not at all
WE have all day to look up stats and debate this. The real-time decision has to come in about 90 seconds, if that. Of course, they should have done their homework leading up to any game.
I'd hit and run
Given Navi’s ridiculous contact ability, but his apparent penchant for the GIDP, I feel this would be the best way of still allowing Navi to put that .650 OPS to work while avoiding the inherent risk of getting 2 outs. Navi wouldn’t miss contact with a pitch unless its a pitch that Posada can’t handle well, so I think regardless you end up with Kapler on 2B. Navi will make contact with a fastball in the zone, and I think a fastball out of the zone or a curveball would result in a steal significantly more often than not.
This is what I voted.
There’s a 40% that Navi hits it on the ground, and, if we send Kaplar before the pitch, there’s a chance the infield moves away from the play and Navi gets a single. Also, hell, Navi could hit a homer.
from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum
Theres actually about a 35% chance he whiffs out of the zone, and 7% in the zone.
So if ithe pitch happens to be outide the zone theres actually a .35 × .37% chance of a GB or 24% chance.
Inside the zone he makes contact 93% of the time so .93 × .37 = 34%
About half the pitches he sees are in the zone, so if you average it out there is a 29% chance he turns any pitch into a grounder.
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This actually fails to take into consideration fouls
51.5% of his contact resulted in foul balls, so the % chance of him turning a specific pitch into a grounder in fair territory is roughly 14%.
So the breakdown on a hit and run call is 14% ball on ground, 21% whiff, 41% foul ball, 24% fly-ball or line drive or popup.
Throw in the game theory that they may expect a hit and run vs a steal and you may get a tough pitch to hit.
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cut navi
wait, that wasn’t an option? why do we let him play again? it must be that stellar defense he plays.
First born
Why do we let him play? Because he ’s the first acquisition from the new regime and can admit that they made a mistake.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives."
Jackie Robinson
"People ask me what I do in the winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
—Rogers Hornsby
Reluctantly voted for the SAC
I am not going to PH because I am not ready to go to my back-up catcher to start the 8th of what is currently a tie game. I am going to keep my back-up catcher in case we go into extra innings. I don’t want to give-up an out but the likelyhood is very strong that Navi will make an out so lets make it a productive out. Then I give Bartlett and I am guessing that CC is hitting second, giving two of my bettter hitters an opportunity to drive in the go ahead run.
Why any of you are letting Kapler stay on first is baffling. Pinch-run for him, avoid bad baserunning.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Feb 28, 2010 10:30 AM EST reply actions
I forgot what a disaster he was last year
5 of 7 on steals
4 outs on the bases not including caught stealing, force outs, pickoffs
2 Bases Taken on flyouts, PB, WP
Just 19% extra base taken % vs 42% for career (extra base on singles hit or doubles while on base)
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by FreeZorilla on Feb 28, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
At a risk of stating the obvious...
…this is an awesome site feature. Very clever, a LOT of fun!
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
Let's hope we NEVER get in this situation.........
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives."
Jackie Robinson
"People ask me what I do in the winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."
—Rogers Hornsby
Avoiding th DP seems to be the biggest factor.
Likely outcomes of Navarro vs. RHP using 2009 lack of production for a base:
31% GO (read DP)
31% AO (23% of these within the infield)
15% K
23% reach base somehow
This is against RHP in general without considering Burnett`s career 1.26 GO/AO ratio.I would rather have one productive out than two unproductive ones so I say sacrifice bunt.
Why is this guy on the roster?
How can you have any pudding if you haven`t eaten your meat? I`m still waiting...
by Barnese and Bailey Circus on Feb 28, 2010 1:42 PM EST reply actions
About Navarro
Like most Rays’ fans, I am very disappointed in Navarro. But I don’t have the same contempt or absolute certainty that he is a total bust that many have.
He was signed as a 17 year old by NY and was moved pretty aggressively through the minors where he generally demonstrated pretty good plate discipline. His minor league career line was .274/.352/.398 with 90 doubles and 185 BBs (230 Ks) in 1560 ABs. As a 19 year old he played in high A and AA and the next year made it to AAA and even got 7 ABs with the Yankees.
His next two years were spent between AAA and the Dodgers, hitting pretty well with LA and walking a good amount before coming to TB where he hit poorly although he still walked 20 times in 193 ABs. The next year, still just 23, was his first time with over 300 ABs in the majors and he continued to disappoint the Rays. His BB rate declined although it was not awful-33 BBs in 388 ABs. Still, there is no hiding that he was a bad offensive player made to look less awful by a strong August and terrific September.
In 2008 he was a solid contributor. As a matter of fact, his only bad month was August as he surged again in September. One red flag was that his walk rate declined for the 3rd straight year, and in 2009, there is no need to revisit the horror.
So what to make of it? He is now 26 years old and has been a full-time catcher for 3 years. One year was bad but recouped a bit by a second half improvement. One year was solid and one was beyond awful. I don’t think the evidence is conclusive either way. On balance, I too lean to pessimism, but will not call for his removal from the roster or resort to mocking him as a flop. I am more interested in knowing why his plate discipline was so uncharacteristically horrible last year, why his BABIP was 45 points below his career average and whether those are fixable problems.
What stings is that we could have Zaun for the same cost with one less draft pick
Zaun seems like a great complement to Shoppach. Poor plate discipline is my pet peeve so the trend disturbs me. Of course, I hope I am proven completely wrong but I can’t stand his little league approach of avoiding strikeouts at the expense of weak contact.
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I was hoping to keep Zaun too.
I agree he would complement Shoppach very well.
His pop-up rate was 18% and his FB rate 43% (I doubt those are going for hits)
Throw in abysmal speed and you have a BABIP that might not return to his average levels
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 28, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
If he improves his discipline and doesn't make contact his primary objective, it should improve.
If Navi strikes out more, he will have a better season.
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Scary but true...
What do you attribute his shift in approach to? Was he under specific direction to pull the ball more (hence the DP’s) to build on previous years’ progress, drive more to alleys?
From a sabermetrics perspective, any data on comparable players where contact% has a significant, negative impact?
Reminds me of old Red Sox broadcasts where the announcing team would lament our old friend Julio Lugo’s ‘harmless parabolas to short.’ :) Apparently, he too, should’ve struck out more. :)
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
Bunting
With a lineup as potent as the Yanks, it’s hard to justify playing for 1 run when they still have 6 more outs.





















