Is Sonnanstine-Davis Really an Open Competition?
It was generally assumed Wade Davis would be named the fifth starter in the Rays rotation to start the 2010 season following his strong debut at the tail-end of last year. Andy Sonnanstine appeared destined to fill one of three roles: bullpen duty, trade bait, or the 6th man ready to be called up from Durham at a moment's notice in the event of injury to a starter or struggles similar to those experienced by Sonny in 2009. Yesterday, Joe Maddon revealed that the race between Davis and Sonnanstine was really close. Was this posturing to raise trade interest or do the Rays really feel they would be better off with Sonnanstine in the rotation?
As with all decisions by the shrewd Rays management team, the choice can't be simplified to who the Rays feel is a better starter. Nonetheless, a head-to-head comparison is a good place to start. Let's begin with Sonnanstine and take on the all-too-familiar role of Sonny apologist. The main criticisms of Andy Sonnanstine will always begin with his sub-90's velocity. To be fair at about 87 miles-per-hour, he's not exactly even knocking on 90's door. He also doesn't have what is deemed a true out or plus pitch. To counter that, Sonny throws five pitches (fastball, cutter, curve, slider, change) and when on his game consistently works quickly and ahead of opposing hitters. With five true offerings, he manages to keep batters on their toes guessing. The end result is a 87 MPH fastball that generates more whiffs than Jeff Niemann's 92 MPH offering.
Wade Davis comes with all the hype of a top prospect and rightfully so. Davis should be a workhorse front-to-middle of the rotation starter for a long time. Davis offers a fastball which he threw 72% of the time last year, accompanied by his plus curveball (78 MPH). His secondary offerings include a slider and changeup which are used a combined 13%. Davis has worked his way through the Rays system patiently, in a spot where many other teams may have called him up in 2008. After his successful late-season stint in 2009, its hard to argue against the fact that the Time is NOW for Wade Davis.
There is no argument to be made in defense of Andy Sonnanstine's 2009 season. His cutter use increased to 45% and no offering registered as above average according to linear weights. Sonny's walk rate per nine innings skyrocketed for the first time in his career to 3.07 despite big league walk rates of 1.79 1.72. Below is a comparison of how Sonnanstine compares to Davis during their time in AAA prior to the big leagues:
|
AAA |
Age |
K/9 |
BB/9 |
FIP |
|
Andy Sonnanstine |
24 |
8.37 |
1.65 |
3.44 |
|
Wade Davis |
23 |
7.94 |
3.4 |
3.83 |
At 6 months older, Sonnanstine not only walked fewer, but actually struck out more than Davis. In 2008, Sonnanstine registered the highest single-season WAR (3.6) of any Rays' starter in history not named James Shields or Scott Kazmir and made several great starts versus the Red Sox. Sonny's metrics included a FIP of 3.91, a tERA of 3.68 and a xFIP of 4.36. To dismiss Sonnanstine's success through the minors and his successful 2008 campaign because of a catastrophic 2009 is plain stupid.
So back to the original question, what should the Rays do with Sonnanstine and Davis? In a vacuum, I think Davis is the better pitcher but the margin is much closer than most fans think. Let's take a look at the FIP projections for the two pitchers:
|
FIP |
Wade Davis |
Andy Sonnanstine |
|
Bill James |
4.26 |
4.20 |
|
CHONE |
4.71 |
4.53 |
|
Marcel |
3.99 |
4.58 |
|
Fans |
3.69 |
4.44 |
|
ZiPS |
4.13 |
4.57 |
|
Average |
4.16 |
4.46 |
Davis's projections are all over the board but the most telling to me is how far apart the Fan's perception is versus the traditional projections. The fans expect Davis to outperform his 2009 AAA performance. This is probably similar to what we'd have seen projected by the fans for David Price in 2009 when there was outrage that he began the season in Durham. If you remove the fans from the average the gap narrows to less than 0.20. This does nevertheless serve as evidence that in a vacuum the Rays are better off with Wade Davis pitching than Andy Sonnanstine.
Are there other factors that could perhaps offset the fan-neutral 0.20 FIP difference to the Rays? On the Andy Sonnanstine side of the equation a move to the bullpen most likely decreases his market value. As a starter his team-controlled salary makes him far more attractive to other teams. If he goes to the minors, he provides an excellent 6th starter option, but again his 2008 campaign only becomes a more distant memory as the perception of a AAAA pitcher sets in. If he pitches any better in the rotation for the Rays over the first few months than he did in 2009, and let's face it, he can't perform worse, his reputation will be salvaged and his trade value increased.
But 2010 is the Rays' all-or-nothing year right? This is the year of the $7 million closer and the final year of the contracts of Carlos Pena and Carl Crawford. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead! Wait, maybe there's an advantage to having Wade Davis in Durham to start the year. The answer can be found in service time. 172 days of big league service is needed to qualify as a year of service. Per Cot's Contracts, Davis has 32 days of service time. If the Rays can limit Davis's big league season to less than 140 days, they save a year of cost control. As R.J. Anderson pointed out yesterday, there is a reason David Price has 164 days and Evan Longoria has one year and 170 days of service time.
Some are sure to cry foul, and accuse the front office of being cheap. Most fans have come to grips with the fact the Rays need to trade players or let them walk at the end of their arbitration years. We will celebrate Crawford and Pena's likely final seasons with the club and move on. How nice would it be to get a full extra season out of these guys if the team could play without them for a month or so at the front end of their contracts? That's the advantage of leaving Davis in Durham for a month. You lose 0.20 in FIP over 5-8 starts, but get a full extra season out of Davis when he's further developed and when guys like Shields and Garza will be long gone. This is life in a successful small-market team. So in conclusion, is there a competition for the 5th spot in the rotation? Yes, it's just that Davis has to overcome a handicap of external factors that incentivize the Rays to choose Sonnanstine for a month or so.
1 recs |
106 comments
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Comments
Let me be the first to comment for the masses,
“The Rays don’t care about winning, blah, blah , blah……..”
If I am commenting you need to hear it.
Just ask the Giants whether it's worth keeping your young pitchers in AAA for a little while longer
I don’t know if Wade is in danger of becoming a Super 2 if he starts the year off with the team and he is certainly not likely to win back-to-back Cy Youngs, but it’s definitely worth planning for the future a little bit, even if this is the year to go all-in.
by ChiBurbRaysFan on Mar 18, 2010 12:08 PM EDT reply actions
and if we're lucky
and get a 6 starts of 2008 Sonny…we have a very valuable trade piece.
I fully understand and agree with the premise of keeping Davis down for a bit.
I just wish there was a better option than Sonny to keep his spot warm. I just don’t think Andy’s worthy of a rotation spot on a competing team. Yes, if 2008 Sonny shows up, then fine, he can stay. I’m not ready to hand him the ball to prove himself right away though. He was SO bad last year that he should have to prove himself in AAA before just being given the 5th starter job.
Regressing to the mean streets of St. Pete
You can't completely forget about 2008
He was our second or third best pitcher that year.
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 18, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
also
while I haven’t looked at the Rays April schedule, most teams end up not needing a 5th starter quite as often in April due both to scheduling less games, but also all the rain/cold issues
The key there is "most teams"
JoMa has rarely skipped a starter, especially early in the season.
If I am commenting you need to hear it.
He did last year with Neimann so I'm not really sure if your opinion is grounded in fact.
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 18, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Wasn't that later in the season the Jeff was skipped?
If I am commenting you need to hear it.
I know he was skipped in Texas around the 4th of July.
He worked out of the pen. Not sure if he missed others.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Yeah, that looks like the only one that he was skipped in 2009.
He had 31 starts overall.
If I am commenting you need to hear it.
You're correct that they only "skipped" him once, but he they managed his innings pretty heavily in the middle of the season
frequently getting an extra day or two, especially around the ASB. Here are his days of rest for each start:
99
4
5
4
4
4
5
4
4
4
5
6
5
4
7
4
5
10
4
5
5
4
6
4
5
4
4
5
6
5
4
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 18, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
What if Davis signs a Shields type deal?
I’m not in favor of trading Sonny especially with the option still left
I doubt it happens
It worked for Shields because Shields was never a top prospect and was never thought to have dominating stuff (or at least a dominating fastball). When he got to the majors, he was probably just counting his blessings that he’s guaranteed a job for the next 6 years. Even if Davis flounders, he’ll get a bunch of chances with his stuff and his pedigree.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Question
172 games of big league service is needed to qualify as a year of service. Per Cot’s Contracts, Davis has 32 days of service time. If the Rays can limit Davis’s big league season to less than 140 days,
Should it say 172 days of big league service?
Otherwise, I think the FO could easily make an argument either way.
In regards to service time. Could the Rays simply start Sonny at MLB level and Wade at AAA and on his start days, move him up and back down as opposed to leaving him at the MLB level, or this much ado about nothing.
yes, thanks
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by FreeZorilla on Mar 18, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope.
Once a player is sent down, he has to stay down for something like 20 days barring an injury.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 18, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, gotcha
Thought I had a good idea.
I assume Davis has 2 options left, and Sonny has at least 1 left.
Options present no obstacle in this decision.
One could make the argument that the Rays shouldn’t concern themselves since pitchers don’t age in a linear fashion like hitters. There’s a chance Davis’ first full year is his peak.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 18, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to the exent that Davis has at least one available
If he had none this would be an easier call.
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Not a Niemann/Hammel/Cormier situation where one has to go.
Of course that worked out fine for all parties involved.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 18, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Options don't matter
because when you’re sent down from ST (prior to season) that doesn’t use an option, right? If a player has 0 options left, can they start in ST and be called up without an issue? I assume it’s only being optioned down that is a problem.
Options don't matter here because both have them.
And no.
Any time a player is sent down while on the 40 man (barring an injury) he uses an option.
When the Rays sent Hellickson down a few days ago, they used an option. They can send him up and down all year, but it’ll only be one option used.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 18, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, I knew about the all year thing
but I thought prior to Opening Day it didn’t use an option. So in theory (lets use Hellickson), we could invite him up for 3 ST, send him back down (prior to Opening Day) each year and in year 4, if we invite him to ST (and he’s on 40 man) we have to keep him up (out of options)?
NRI's don't use options, only 40 man players
Beckham didn’t use an option.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Right. Although non-40 man players have an options count of their own.
Since after 4 or 5 years in the minors (depends on their signing age) they have to be added to the 40-man or exposed to the Rule 5.
So there’s no way to game the system to keep more talent than you can carry on a 40-man roster, and even then, you can’t hoard guys for a long time.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 18, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
He's on the 40-man, so he's automatically invited.
We can do this same song and dance twice more with him before he must stay up or has to pass through waivers.
There are some exceptions to this rule; injury and fewer than five pro seasons, but neither should apply to him.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 18, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I've got a bit of a beef with this financial argument.
It comes down to this – how “cost controlled” is a starting pitcher in his arb 3 year when he began as a super 2, resulting in 4 arb seasons? Yes, he’s not a FA, but he’s also not cheap. Arb 3 years could be referred to as controlled, but not much so in terms of cost. FreeZo or others could probably make a nice post on the cost of “4th year arbs”.
And to avoid super 2 status, another 30-35 days of service time would have to be spent in the minors by Davis. Super 2 generally kicks in at about 140 days of service over 2 years.
As a good example, assuming he continues to produce at a good level, what do you expect Garza to be making in 2013, his arb 3 year? He’s at $3.35 in his S2 year 2010.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 19, 2010 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Very nice breakdown.
I would think that this is the year where the monetary factors weigh least in the decision though.
There are a couple different ways I can see this season and the next two or so playing out, without factoring in the Sonny/Davis decision. The first would be that the team sees a hearty uptick in attendance, makes another deep postseason run, looks at their accounting books and say "oh hey, we can afford to spend more now because we beat out projections’, then go out and make some FA acquisitions to gear the team up for another competitive run.
The other, and what I see as a more likely scenario, is the team’s revenue falls within their expected projections, and they decide to stick to their ‘down years’ plan, in which case they go ahead and let the big contracts walk, fill in holes, field a team with a payroll in the $40 million range, and stare .500 dead in the face next year.
In the first scenario, it makes more sense to field the better pitcher now (and for the sake of this argument, I’m going to say that’s Davis). In the second, it makes more sense to run the better option financially, and that’s Sonny.
Regardless of who takes the field this year, the team has a legit chance at making the playoffs, and it’s been repeated on this site that the difference between the better and worse pitchers in this scenario is only about a win or so, but it’s also been pointed out with the same frequency that the ALE is hyper-competitive. If this team thinks the division is that tight, I really don’t think it’s in their best interest to save some money by sacrificing a win simply because there isn’t a big enough margin for error here.
On the other hand, if you go by BA’s PETCOA projections, at this moment, they’re projecting the Rays as 2nd in the division with the wild-card spot secured by a few games. If the team thinks that’s a solid projection and that they have a few games to spare, then it’s clearly in their best interest to drop a game and stash Davis away for a month or so, simply because they have the game to spare.
"Sure, because of the "cold weather" and rain." More bait and switch tactics by the New York owners of this team." --NikoHoullis, the lead blogger at Buc'em on racial and anti-semitic insensitivity.
I'm not sure how to convert a projected FIP margin of 0.20 over 5-8 games into wins
But it must be quite a bit less than a win. Shields FIP was .29 better than Garza’s and was .7 Wins Better for the season. For a month thats somewhere between .1 and .2 wins
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
It's simple: you don't.
5-8 games is too small a sample size to do any calculated estimates. The win difference I’m ‘projecting’ if you want to call it that, is just a guess I’m using because it fits my point of view and has no real basis in reality.
"Sure, because of the "cold weather" and rain." More bait and switch tactics by the New York owners of this team." --NikoHoullis, the lead blogger at Buc'em on racial and anti-semitic insensitivity.
Dude, where is your sense of humor?
even when you erased my posting, you have to admit it was funny. I didn’t know about yahoo search been an unsafe site. Is it?
"A chain is no stronger than its weakest link."
First, I don't care whether it was funny or not. That's not why it's hidden.
You posted an image result search for Pamela Anderson with a result set that included nude photos. That’s not safe for work. There’s no grey area here. Naked pics = NSFW.
Second, I didn’t even tell you to not post them, I told you to tag them as not safe for work.
Finally, no, I don’t have to admit it was funny. As a matter of fact, it wasn’t funny. It wasn’t even close to funny. I found no humor in you using a lame celebrity-name-play-association joke, because those jokes are lame, they’ve been lame forever, and they’ll continue to be lame, but in the end, that’s not the point. The point is, you posted a link to NSFW pics and didn’t mark it as such, and I’m telling you to not do that again.
I’d also advise you drop trying to convince me that the joke was funny, because I don’t care.
"Sure, because of the "cold weather" and rain." More bait and switch tactics by the New York owners of this team." --NikoHoullis, the lead blogger at Buc'em on racial and anti-semitic insensitivity.
And I didn't appreciate clicking on a link that was NSFW
If I am commenting you need to hear it.
By the way, I just belatedly bumped into a post about Sonny
and whether he should be traded on MLBTradeRumors from 3/15.
I gotta say no to that – and did – for depth reasons.
And I’m sorry kericr, but if the Rays FO makes decisions based on PECOTA projections, they’re a lot less good than they get credit for.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 19, 2010 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions
A nice piece
It highlights the business side of baseball. This cannot be over-emphasized with the Rays. I am rooting for Sonny being the 5th starter because it will mean that he had a great spring and it will also mean that the ballclub as a whole is strengthened for the reasons that were stated so well. I also like Sonny because he is a different look that our other starters; sort of half way towards having a knuckler. We would be a great team if he can return to 2008 form and I think that he had the mental makeup to do it.
Go Sonny!
Now this is a good argument for the use Sonny point.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 19, 2010 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions
As John Houseman would have said
in his commercials for some Wall Street brokerage – “because he earned it”.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Mar 19, 2010 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I have them in my final 4
They will win this game but they don’t exactly look like a final 4 team right now do they?
Fire and Ice: Rafael Soriano and J.P Howell.......with their side kick Grant the aussie Balfour!
I know it's OT
but a interesting AAA game for the Rays tonight. Garza is starting, Dillon is the catcher and Joyce returns, will be playing DH.
Please, please come back and make the team, Joyce
Fire and Ice: Rafael Soriano and J.P Howell.......with their side kick Grant the aussie Balfour!
One game down and my bracket is already in the negative
Great finish to the ND game
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 18, 2010 2:20 PM EDT reply actions
That pretty much summed up UF's season
Come back from double digits and give it away at the end.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Yep, there will always be the 06-07 back-to-backs inc the championship win vs Oden's OSU
and the football champinship win against Ted Ginny Gin Gin
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Its not living in the past, just eases the pain
Living in the past is saying UF is better than x b/c we won championships in the past.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Nope still living in the past
I mean it’s cool if you need something to ease the pain when you lose. I mean you were the lower seed and a 4 point dog so it shouldn’t hurt that much
From Yer Scurvy Dog SRQman
Yea, memories suck
I hold no residual fondness for the 08 Rays season.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
No I'm just saying I don't care if you pull the
UF beat OSU in whatever card. Cause it doesn’t bother me. It’s funny how you gotta use that to try to make yourself ease the pain.
From Yer Scurvy Dog SRQman
Touche
Not really any real pain. Just a quick easy retort to a trolling Buckeye-wannabe UT student
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Eh I'm not a wannabe UT student
And if Ohio State lost you prob would have made a chuckle too. I’ve been there to see my team lose World Series games (in person, Natty Title (In person), Super Bowl, NCAA B-ball title in my lifetime. Loses don’t hurt I mostly remember the good times because that is what I choose to. The loses don’t hurt either because I’d rather get there and have the fun than always lose, even though I loved the Rays/my teams even when they suck(ed)
From Yer Scurvy Dog SRQman
Eh.
Been to a Buckeye game a year almost every year and it’s a family thing. Seeing them win on my Grandparents 50th anniversary in 02, same day as natty title game, and going to it with my Grandparents, loss vs LSU, are some of the best memories I got so.
From Yer Scurvy Dog SRQman
The thing about college is you actually attend a school
But its cool that you’re living in the past, and claiming someone else’s college as you own
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
I'm sorry old friend
at least they’ll have the same number of wins as UCF
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 18, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup, looks like Scottie Reynolds is going to tank my bracket
I had them going to the sweet 16
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 18, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Will you still care about mine?
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 18, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
It would've been awesome
if Robert Morris had actually held on.
Last year, I had ’Nova in the Final Four, and thought they were underrated.
This year, I’ve felt all along that they were overrated.
by FloridaownsFSU on Mar 18, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Yay, tonights game is on tv
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 18, 2010 2:33 PM EDT reply actions
Can't you do both?
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 18, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
MM uber alles, no doubt
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 18, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
It's better than just about anything except Stanley Cup Finals, IMO
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 18, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I enjoy the first days
But I really enjoy NBA playoffs and Stanley Cup playoffs.
From Yer Scurvy Dog SRQman
I would like the NBA finals better if the outcomes weren't dictated by the referees so much
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 18, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
False
One more year Brett. One more year.
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Mar 18, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
what's best for the rays . . .
I think the conclusion says it all. Sonnanstine is the better option in the long term simply because the Rays can control Davis for one extra year. Moreover, he is experienced and this is a make or break year. He will win meaningful games . . . as if any of them are meaningless. GO RAYS!
the math says 5 starts
Very nice article.
I checked the schedule and if you put Sonny in the 5th slot and pitch the other guys on 4 days rest, he would make 5 starts by May 11th. The 5th slot would not be needed again until May 21. If you called up Davis on May 21 and kept him through end of season (Oct 3), it would give him 136 days of service time. If Sonny pitches well it would either give the Rays the option of keeping him or just increase trade value. If not, well that’s what options are for.
Being this is the all in year, every win counts. Would hate to do something tricky and then lose the wild card by a game.
Does post season count towards days of service?
pitching is like real estate . . . .location, location, location

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