Moments with Maddon, Part 3
My apologies, by I haven't been able to finish the write-up on last week's Moments with Maddon quite yet. To be entirely honest, I procrastinated doing the math for a bit and now I find myself in a hole, since these calculations aren't exactly the quickest things to do. The write-up will be finished at the very least by early next week, so again, sorry if anyone was dying to know the answer.
Since I haven't gotten last week's Moments with Maddon finished yet, I'm loathe to put up anything too stats heavy; I'm hoping for these to build off each other somewhat and it'd be silly to try and build off of results that you haven't even heard. So instead of delving into a specific game situation this week, I've got a topic that's a bit more general: the overlap between statistics and scouting.
We all know (or at least we should) that statistics aren't the be-all-end-all. Sure, we love our statistics here on DRaysBay, but they're only one half of the equation. In order to get the most accurate answers, statistics should always be combined with good scouting reports. Both statistics and scouting data have their strengths and weaknesses, so when combined you get a much more complete look at a player and their skills. We try and do this in our analyses here as much as possible, but lacking major-league-caliber scouting skills, we have to rely upon things like Pitch f/x, batted ball, and plate discipline data to serve as standbys.
With this in mind, how do you accurately weigh the value of scouting data in relation to statistics? Do you favor one over the other or combine the two as much as possible? If they both give you widely disparaging opinions of a player, which one do you trust? Or do you attempt to find the middle ground still? These can be difficult questions for a general manager to make, but they can be equally challenging for managers that need to make game-day decisions about players, lineups, and match-ups.
And now, without further ado, here's the situation for this week:
It's game-day and you need to determine your lineup. In particular, you're having trouble with the 2B/RF slots. You're debating between Ben Zobrist, Sean Rodriguez, Gabe Kapler, and Matt Joyce for the two openings, but can't decide which to use. There is a righty on the mound for the opposing team, which makes you lean towards using Joyce in right field and Zobrist at second in order to get the platoon advantage. However, your scouts have informed you that in the limited at-bats that Zobrist and Joyce have faced this pitcher, they have looked utterly and completely fooled. Zobrist is 2-19 against him with 7 strikeouts, Joyce is 1-9 with 4 strikeouts, and the scouts insist they both look even worse than those numbers. They can't hit this guy.
Conversely, Kapler and Sean Rodriguez both have exemplary scouting reports against this pitcher. Their "swing planes" line up with the pitcher's stuff and they've looked locked and loaded against him in the past, although in only five plate appearances each.
For argument's sake, let's say each player has been performing to that point of the season at the level of their CHONE predictions. No player is on a particular hot or cold streak.
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Assuming its NOT a reverse splitter
I’m going to stick with my ZObrist/Joyce and referenceChapter 3 from the Book on PItchers vs Hitters “owning” each other.
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Anybody think Joyce will be he everyday RF regardless of pitcher / Zobrist will be everyday 2B regardless of pitcher and S-Rod will be everyday DH regardless of pitcher?
It appears if this doesnt happen at this point Maddon is out thinking himself.
I don't think you can make any broad, sweeping generalizations on the lineup based on 3 ST games and a handful of AB's
"It's good to have a little cushion. But it's not going to be easy."
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Mar 6, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
He's maximizing the lineup based on empirical data and scouting observation.
Why does this irritate some people so much?
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 6, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
I think it's extremely likely that Kapler platoons with Joyce in RF
More because Kapler dominates lefties than because of Joyce’s numbers against them.
by benderbrodriguez on Mar 6, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
why not let Rodriguez platoon with Joyce
against LHP – SRod 2B/ Zo RF
against RHP – Joyce RF/Zo 2B or Zo RF/Briggy 2B.
If they are performing at projected levels...
Then Joyce/Zobrist would be the better players (according to the projections). I rather stick with then and field the best players possible.
That said if we’re facing Zack Greinke, I’m putting in Willy Aybar and having him pick the rest of the lineup.
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by Tommy Rancel on Mar 6, 2010 7:56 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Going back to the stats/scouting reports...
As Steve said none of us claim to be scouts, but that doesn’t mean we rely on just numbers.
In fact, a lot of stuff (I’d say most of for me) written on here began as an observation of something we, or someone else, saw in a game or something we remembered happening. Then we go to the numbers to see if there was anything to that observation. Sometimes there is and sometimes there’s not.
I have a post going up on Monday that is a good example of this. I remembered seeing something in a few games last year and was able to back it up with data.
You can’t rely just on stats, but you also can’t just go on something because you saw it “with your own eyes.”
We try to have a blend of both and I think both are absolutely necessary. Even though most of the end result you see written is stat slanted, it most likely started with something scouting related.
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by Tommy Rancel on Mar 6, 2010 8:13 AM EST via mobile reply actions
To this end, you can back up "swing plane", by matching up where in the zone hitters work better vs where the pitcher does
I’m not sure there is readily available public information to do this but I’m sure RZ could figure it out via pitch f(x)
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i voted for Zobrist S-Rod but i mean't....
Zobrist in RF and S-Rod at 2nd Vs. Lefty’s and Zobrist at 2nd and Joyce in RF Vs. Righty’s
Yep. I'm sure if a scout came to them and said player x's swing is suited better against a certain pitcher
The internal analytical system the Rays use would further/or refute the scouts theory.
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by Tommy Rancel on Mar 6, 2010 9:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I wen't with Rodriguez/Zobrist
with the thought being Rodriguez hits righties pretty well and Joyce is still young and has been over powered (SSS) by this guy in his young career. Zobrist while also being shut down has more experience and will be more flexible later in the game because of his switch hitting ability.
- that being said the option for other isn’t on here because you specified who is available for these spots, however with Rodriguez getting time in the outfield during ST, if he gets a spot on the team that essentially gives us 2 RH COF options with him and Zobrist allowing Brignac to make the team as well with Kapler not making the roster. So I would lean towards Brignac at 2B and either Rodriguez or Zobrist in RF.
I wonder how the voting would be different...
if Joyce had hit 3 HR is 3 ST games instead of S-Rod
true
but yes, SSS but everything off the bat of SRod has been smashed and we can’t act like it didn’t happen either. I’d say yesterday the HR was probably the ball hit the weakest of the 3 and it isn’t like he doesn’t have a track record of smashing
I think I stick with my best players and let them try to work it out.
I’d rather go down swinging than try to outsmart myself and get too cute with it. Zobrist for sure I’d stick with as he may have difficulty against the pitcher but he can work counts and was positive in the fielding department based on UZR. I dont know enough about Joyce or S-ROd to make a real informed decision on them though.

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