Moments with Maddon: Where is this Criticism?
I don't get this. I really don't. In his article this weekend, Gary Shelton claimed that there are lots of people calling for Joe Maddon's head, accusing him of being a bad manager. Shelton doesn't come out an accuse Maddon himself, but instead he cites seven allegations against Maddon that he's heard fans make. These allegations are all old hat - pitch counts, batting order, pinch-hitting, being unorthodox, yadda yadda yadda - but Shelton claims that, "...somehow, the barbs tossed at Maddon seem more pointed, more harsh."
Before I say anything else on the subject and bias the results further, let's take a quick poll. Continue after the jump for my full thoughts on Maddon.
My blood is a little hot right now, so to keep myself from going off on multiple tangents, I'm going to break my thoughts down simply:
Where Is This Criticism?
This is an honest question: can anyone tell me if people are really ripping on Joe Maddon? Not living in the area, I don't have my finger on the Tampa/St. Pete pulse - I don't get the newspapers, listen to the radio programs, or interact with locals at the Trop. Instead, I watch the games on MLB.tv, read Rays-related online content, and go see them play whenever they come in town. I freely admit that I'm not a local fan, but I like to think that I can normally tell what's the hot-button issue at the moment. It's normally pretty easy - slumping players, injuries, new catchy slogans, etc - but sometimes I can get surprised. So have I missed the "GAH JOE $#)%ING MADDON" boat entirely?
From what I can see, there have been few negative things said about Joe Maddon this year. Here on DRaysBay, most of our posts addressing his moves have backed him up, but then again, our opinions don't always match up with the populace at large. But still, I have to search hard to find serious critiques of Maddon. RJ Anderson is drinking the Joe Maddon Cool-Aid over at Maddon's Mission; Rays Index has Joe Maddon polling at a 7.8 confidence level, closer to his highest point than his lowest point; and JOE MADDON SUCKS posted this blurb two weeks ago - "There is always going to be a difference of opinion on some managerial moves, but in our opinion, the 2010 season to date, Joe Maddon has done an excellent job." For a website that's done bashed Maddon heavily in the past, it's quite shocking to see their most recent headline reading "Maddon Keeps On Making All The Right Moves."
Joe Maddon aside, this makes sense. The Rays have been winning a lot this year, and you rarely hear fans or the media complaining about a manager when things are going well. When things start to skid, though, out come the torches and pitchforks. It's a part of the job; whether intentional or not, managers serve as partial shields for players, deflecting criticism and pressure away from players and to themselves. The Rays started losing this past week, and so out came the anti-Joe-Maddon article. It's all too predictable.
Here's my big beef, though. In my opinion...
Joe Maddon Has Been an Exceptional Manager This Season
For those of you that followed my Moments with Maddon series this off-season, you know that I entered the season with the mindset of evaluating the processes behind Joe Maddon's managerial moves. Was he pinch-hitting in inefficient situations? Was he making proper usage of the bullpen, using pitchers in situations to maximize their strengths? In short, I wanted to get a head start on the anti-Maddon crowd and to see if those feelings were justified. I was afraid I would end up hating Maddon, but at least then I'd have felt confident in my opinion and had reasons to back myself up.
Two months into the season, I've gone the opposite direction: I love Maddon. He's using pinch-hitters and relief pitchers in the proper situations (and for those concerned that he's over-using the bullpen, see this). He knows how to construct a good line-up (even if he does love to tinker and did leave Bartlett at lead-off for awhile) with high on-base percentage batters hitting high in the order. He's also not afraid to change his line-up around depending on the pitcher they're facing, most notably stocking the batting order with lefties to neutralize John Danks. He thinks outside of the box, pores over statistics and scouting reports, and from what we can tell, he's an excellent communicator and has a great clubhouse presence.
And so, I'd turn Shelton's article on its head. Pinch-hitting, relief pitchers, pitch counts, unorthodox moves - these are all reasons to be praising Maddon, not criticizing him. Of course, even the best managers screw up on occasion and there have been times this season where I've disagreed with Maddon, but they're relatively minor blips on an otherwise great record. Enjoy him - not all managers are this progressive.
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This.
You should have heard Dueche-mig yesterday crying about the good ol’ days when all you needed was ERA and BA.
No "might" about it.
He is clearly going after the fat bozo on the air from 3-7 and all his little sports dittoheads.
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by Jamie DeVriend on Jun 1, 2010 2:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I've heard it both am and pm drive time
both ends of the dial. questioning every move Maddon has made . And steadfast that they actually know enough to question because after all they are on the Radio. Thank god I have Sirius
I can't think of another market that large with sports-talk radio that is that bad.
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by Jamie DeVriend on Jun 1, 2010 2:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Orlando...
mainly because it has Dan Sileo as the only local option in the morning.
The afternoon options are good, but the morning options are just awful.
by Jason Collette on Jun 1, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually Dan Sileo is local to Tampa again, he's syndicated to Orlando. This was the other way around as recent as last year.
Also I really haven’t heard a lot of criticism from Sileo by-and-large (I catch the last 15 minutes of his show or so on the way to work). If anything, I’m picking up a lot of criticism by him towards the listeners for thinking he’s doing a poor job.
The criticism of Maddon is eating at me as well. It’s beyond unwarranted. I might be less phased if it were actual nitpicking of the occasional thing I think he does wrong, but the criticism of him on sports-talk is beyond absurd.
This goes back to something I said earlier about the Times and educating (or not educating) listeners. I hate to say this, but the Tampa Bay area, regardless of passion, is one of the least-intelligent sports markets in the nation. People do not form their own opinions here. They listen to sports talk or read the papers, and use the opinion pieces in those to form their opinion for them (in other words, they treat it like politics). The press likes to commit to their ‘jounalistic integrity’ and claim they don’t influence the masses, and that’s absolutely wrong. They do influence opinions, because people are by and large too stupid or too lazy to do the research necessary to form their own. It’s just easier to either agree or disagree with the talking head.
When John Jaso strikes out twice in a game, he becomes Kohn Kaso, which is Spanish for "with cheese."
That's because this area knows only of FOOTBAWWWW!!!!!
Born and raised here. And this is the absolute truth. Sit in the stands for 15 minutes tops, and you will hear someone say something absolutely RIDICULOUS and uninformed about Rays baseball… or the game in general.
I’m not bashing them…. we need Bucs fans to be Rays fans. But these people are incredibly uneducated, and VERY new to watching baseball.
I think that plays a big part in this JOE MADDON SUCKS!!!1 stuff we’re hearing on the radio, etc so much lately.
No, they really don't know football either.
They let Dr. Stroud and all the hack columnists trick them into thinking that 3-13 with an idiot running their team was much better than 9-7 with definitely not an idiot running their team.
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by Jamie DeVriend on Jun 2, 2010 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Dallas has very good sports-talk radio.
There’s one fantastic station, and even the two that rely on the same tired formula (newspaper and TV guys host the shows, throw out a million topics, take a bunch of calls) aren’t terrible.
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by Jamie DeVriend on Jun 2, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
From experience Charlotte and DC are awful.
I always here people I know bitch and moan about NYC and Atlanta also.
Duemig is unlistenable
He has his nose so far up Shelton’s rear right now i’m surprised Duemig didn’t write the article himself and have Shelton print it under his name. I can’t recall any day since Spring Training where he didn’t cry about Longoria hitting 4th. The last few years Duemig had a somewhat hidden hatred of Maddonb, but since we started so hot this season and made him look like the uninformed moron he is he has turned into a petulant little child.
Granted the afternoon guy on 1040 today was crying just as bad about Maddon too. Granted I think that guy just listening to Duemig’s show then just copies it the next day. He somehow equated that Maddon was a horrible manager because he stuck with Kaz in the playoffs after getting shelled and saying in the post game that he will stick with him and that is a part of the future of the team. Then 10 1/2 months later Kaz is traded. He made it seem like 10 1/2 months was like the next day. Then placing Kaz being traded on Maddon’s shoulders. Like he walked into AF’s office and said this kid has to go.
That assclown on 1040 is horrible. I'm amazed that there's someone stupider then Duemig competing in his timeslot.
Please 1010 and CBS. Stronger signal please. Save me from my horrible drives. That, or reccomend some new music for me to buy download
When John Jaso strikes out twice in a game, he becomes Kohn Kaso, which is Spanish for "with cheese."
Reading Gary Shelton = Epic fail
No more criticism than normal from my view. Personally I think he has reacted quicker this year to adjust than in years past. Me likey.
If I am commenting you need to hear it. Not really. www.theraysrepublic.com
Gary Shelton is a hack, but you do him a favor when you link his drivel to a site like this.
I don’t think anyone takes him seriously.
Hey, Surly only looks out for one guy...Surly!
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jun 1, 2010 2:12 PM EDT reply actions
I figured as much, but the article just pissed me off.
I thought about going FJM style on it…I don’t think that type of writing plays to my strengths, but I may have to try it in the future for kicks.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jun 1, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Passion, emotion...it definitely helps.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jun 1, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Be careful, anger leads to sarcasm, sarcasm leads to snark, snark leads to the dark side
Hey, Surly only looks out for one guy...Surly!
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jun 1, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Does that make RJ the Darth Vader of the interwebs?
Not the anger, but the snark.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jun 1, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
RJ is Jar Jar Binks, everyone knows this.
Hey, Surly only looks out for one guy...Surly!
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jun 2, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Shelton is ok
but he is obviously referring almost completely to Dumeg and Sileo. I hate both these radio guys with a passion. If Tampa Bay had more local sports talk options, these two would be gone already.
I guess you missed the article where Shelton all but called Pat Burrell the worst human being on the face of the Earth.
Yeah, I soured on Burrell too as did pretty much everyone, but what he did was weak and he should have had to apologize for it. It was personal and completely unnecessary.
When John Jaso strikes out twice in a game, he becomes Kohn Kaso, which is Spanish for "with cheese."
I don't always agree with Maddon, but I always appreciate his processes.
He really is the ideal manager for this team and over the years I’ve really come to appreciate his methods. Call me a homer or a kool-aid drinker, but I’m siding with Maddon more often than not.
That said, on talk radio/newspapers they are always taking shots at Maddon for his lineups, bullpen usage, using numbers etc. I don’t think that kind of stuff (sans numbers) is unique to this area. I’m sure every manager gets the same.
www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Jun 1, 2010 2:12 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Agreed
Nobody was giving him credit for the brilliance he executed on Saturday on the airwaves or any tv media for that matter. I made it a point to bring that up on the 1040 show (thanks for letting me pinch hit) because it deserved attention.
by Jason Collette on Jun 1, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
There is no other manager out there that I'd rather have.
I give him a solid 5
I gave him a 3 evaluating him on just in-game management
But he is moving north this year. A couple moves made me cuss at the TV, but that’s baseball. What I like about JoeMa is that while he likes to be unorthodox, he also isn’t afraid to say ‘shit, that didn’t work out like I wanted it to.’
In the clubhouse, he has to be a 4 or 5.
I thought he was a 3 until this year.
Now that I’ve focused in on his moves he’s a 5. Almost every decision he makes looks justifiable or outright correct.
The only issue that lingered was Bartlett leading off versus righties, and now that he’s fixed that there’s nothing I can point to as a consistent mistake on his part.
Are we sure he makes those decisions?
I’m under the impression that he himself does very little, most is controlled by the front office. I guess that’s just an impression.
I don't get that impression at all
and I would be shocked to find out if lineups came from the FO.
Free Dan Johnson!
I would guess the FO has input
After all, its the FO that has all the data that is provided to Maddon. I don’t think Maddon is neutered, so much as an efficient team. He clearly knows how to apply the data provided, but a manger doesn’t have time to do that work on his own.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
It's one thing to provide info
It’s another to provide a lineup or dictate where a player would hit. That is what I got from tallyray’s comment
Free Dan Johnson!
I do think the FO has much more control than traditional structures...
I probably gave him too little credit in my comment, but I think he gets too much credit/criticism most of the time.
I would be shocked if this were true,
because this is such an intelligent FO. That means they hire people they respect and believe can do the job and then get out of the way and let them do it.
I do think that part of their trust in Maddon is that he and the FO are on the same page. And I think that it is an organization that has a very free flow of information up and down, so it is certainly possible that Maddon is getting data and thoughts from above (and below) and is adjusting his thinking as he assimilates it. But that is a far cry from control or acting a puppet; it is another feature of an intelligently run organization.
A number of players have commented at various times that they recognize that Maddon’s decisions always have a rational explanation whether they seem conventional or unconventional. I consider him a perfect manager for this team and have thought so since his first season here even while I questioned and still question some specific in-game decisions. I hasten to add that there is a difference between questioning and criticizing. And in any case, I consider in-game decisions (with rare exceptions) the least important feature of managing.
Like most fans, I love managing from the stands and even believe (at the moment) that I know the best option. But none of us actually has to manage 25+ players and coaches every day, often forced to make decisions calculated to annoy some of them, nor do we have to project to the next game or next week or from now to autumn. Nor do we know the moment and where a player is at that moment nor do we know much more that enters the manager’s purview. And that is where a careful reading of Maddon’s performance as a manager should increase our appreciation of the work he does and that he began doing from day 1 in 2006.
by bobr on Jun 1, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Off Topic, but have you gotten a chance to listen to the podcasts?
Just wondering your opinion on them.
A number of players have commented at various times that they recognize that Maddon’s decisions always have a rational explanation whether they seem conventional or unconventional.
This is such a strong point. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a player say anything along the lines of them not understanding why he’s doing something, and I’ve heard that comment from a player at one point or another from pretty much every team in the league. Players have expressed their disagreements with Maddon’s decisions (Jonny Gomes and Jorge Cantu getting sent down, Crawford being asked to play CF), but I can’t recall anyone criticizing the rationale behind a decision as incomprehensible.
When John Jaso strikes out twice in a game, he becomes Kohn Kaso, which is Spanish for "with cheese."
As for the "finding us humorous" portion of the interview...
“You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it’s me, I’m a little fucked up maybe, but I’m funny how? I mean funny like I’m a clown? I amuse you? I make you laugh? I’m here to fuckin’ amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?”
This
Is one of the only things I enjoy about moving to Jacksonville. No Shelton and No Duemig. Maddon’s doing a great job.
by jacksontsmith on Jun 1, 2010 2:37 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
My all-time favorite Maddon quote
“Honestly? I think it’s kind of funny,” Maddon says of the criticism. “I really do think it’s humorous. Frankly, these people don’t know what they’re talking about. I would never go into a person’s place of business where I’ve never been and feel comfortable in telling them how to do their jobs. Most of the critics, even the average fans, have no idea what it’s like to work a major-league clubhouse. It’s not at all what they think it is.”
Gave him a 4
I learned in 08 not to question the moves. Maddon by far has taken what he has been given and gotten the most out of it. These guys that are on air have learned one thing, ratings.
There are times when I question some moves. Last night for instance … Why was Pena not stealing on the 0-0 pitch to Jaso. If the catcher throws thru Longo is safe at the plate. If they don’t have a throw then you are not in a double play situation which means that Longo doesn’t have to go on a ground ball to the SS. Last night was one of the few times I expected aggressive base running and I was disappointed.
Overall, I appreciate him as a manager. I think he does fantastic with what he is given talent wise. Just as in 08 this year I am not going to question. I am going to sit back and enjoy the ride and see where it takes me.
"Geno Hayes sucks though
He is one notch above Sabby Piscatelli
by Sveet on Dec 1, 2009 12:34 PM EST"
My one criticism with Joe is I think he is too matchup oriented
I think it wears our bullpen out quicker and pigeonholes some of our batters into the role of a specialist who only faces either lefty or righty pitching.
Sometimes he can be a little slow to make a change to the team/lineup, but that is better than being a little too fast.
Other than that I think he does a great job.
Free Dan Johnson!
I fail to see how Reid has pigeonholed himself
I’m talking about young players not Gabe Kapler type players
Free Dan Johnson!
I wasn't meaning Reid, who I think should play every day
More so players like S-Rod, Blalock, Navarro, etc
That's one way to stimulate the bottom of the lineup..tonight's lineup
Upton cf, Crawford lf, Longoria 3b, Pena 1b, Aybar dh, zobrist 2b, Kapler rf, Navarro c, Brignac ss
It would be nice for Kapler and Aybar to to try and raise their .618OPS and .635OPS vs lefties this year
No wonder why he struggle to hit them
Free Dan Johnson!
Strange...club is still a league best 16-6 vs LH starters despite the suckage from those 2
by Jason Collette on Jun 1, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Because of our pitching when we face LHP has been amazing
I think our ERA as a team is close to 2.50
Free Dan Johnson!
I gave him a 4
I don’t think his showing in the swim suit portion of the competition warrents a 5
I gave him a 4. One of the absolute best in the league, but
his occasional slipups keep me from giving him a 5. I cringe every time he puts in Choate against a RHB.
"Sooner or later, you're going to have #69 in your face." -Al Michaels
To be fair, if the game is close he won't start Choate out vs a RH
If it’s a situation where it’s L, R, L and the right handed bat isn’t too good he’ll leave him in at times.
He just makes me so angry
with his glasses and wine drinking. It ain’t right i tells ya
1 out of 18 teams that got a PG thrown against them made the playoffs.
I don't listen to talk radio.
but if this was written because of what is said on the radio.My understanding is that most of whats on the air is about football.You have football heads,trying to discus baseball.Maybe this is similar to what happened to Tony D .They went after Tony as head coach ,because he had no fire.He was to laid back.The Glazers fell for it and brought in a hot head replacement.Gruden brought one home but that was it.Maybe they think Joe is to laid back.They don’t have a clue about Tony or Joe.
Football heads trying to discuss baseball.
This is spot on…. and pretty much the entire root of it in my opinion.
It is undoubtedly about duemigs show
Dude went off on this article today and how he has a secret list of baseball experts that hate the maddon mission. The Big dog is an idiot
Jun @TheRayTank
Duemig has a secret list?
Who the hell does he think he is, Senator McCarthy?
http://www.baldwinsworld.com
I remember the secret list owners named Malcolm Glazer who wanted to either move the team to LA or sell it.
Good times.
When John Jaso strikes out twice in a game, he becomes Kohn Kaso, which is Spanish for "with cheese."
Post a poll asking what people think of Maddon's Mission
Are you saying he should become fashionable or elitist or snarky or condescending? Is he supposed to adopt logical fallacies as his core technique of debate? Is he supposed to bleat religious proclamations and claim they are "proved" by statistics when they aren’t?
He's not a 5
Maddon’s matchups in the bullpen are sometimes pretty unjustifiable and often times blatantly wrong. He totally misused Choate for the first month of the year. 2009 was no better.
I gave him a 3.
"i shovel ppls stuff 4 money but da mexicans r fierce competitioin."
I won't speak about past years because I wasn't paying as close attention
But I disagree for this season. Outside of Choate for the first couple weeks, who do you think has been misused? Any examples? I can’t think of any big issues.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jun 1, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
As a tortured Cubs fan watching Lou and Jim bumble through
another good, but not-good-enough season, I feel nothing but jealousy and pride over Joe Maddon. Honestly, I think he would be an improvement for most any club’s managerial staff. I just wish Maddon would call up Lou and explain platoon splits or bullpen leveraging.
from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum
The reason why Lou was given his release was because he wouldn't listen to these ideas when Friedman & Co. explained it to him.
Also, you know that ‘secret list’ Shitmeg is talking about? I guarantee you Lou Piniella is on it.
When John Jaso strikes out twice in a game, he becomes Kohn Kaso, which is Spanish for "with cheese."


























