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MADDONISMS


What can you say about Joe Maddon. He has brought success to the Rays, taking them to the World Series and making them a contender again this year. He is a complete student of the game and highly knowledgable and has taught well in the way the Rays play.

 Sometimes though, he frustrates the living daylights out of me with some of what i call his "MADDONISMS". For example, the other day we saw a breakout game from Reid Brignac who slugged 2 homers against the Yankees. Well done to JM for selecting him in the lineup, but we haven't seen him start since. One would think you would like a batter to get hot and stay hot after a great outing, but now is sitting on the bench and quite possibly going cold by not being in the lineup.

 JM has this love affair of playing Gabe Kapler against left handed pitching and keeping as many right handers in the lineup as possible when facing a lefty (Pena and CC the exceptions).  Another "MADDONISM" which i find frustrating is when he uses Randy Choate in the bullpen to pitch to a left hand batter. He will retire a pitcher on fire because in his eyes the matchup warrants his only left hand reliever to come into the game.

Sometimes i think JM overthinks things and can complicate situations when it can be done simply. Most teams have fairly settled lineups with regards to the roles each players have as far as where they are batting in the lineup. JM shuffles the batting order around more than a pack of cards and it must be difficult for players to find any rhythm. Can someone also explain to me why sometimes the Rays bunt with no outs and bases loaded? 

I could go on and name other examples such as sending in pinch hitters at odd times, but JM for the most part has been a great skipper for the Rays and hopefully will continue to be so. Sometimes though i get baffled by some of things he does. He looks ordinary when it doesn't work and then made to look a genius when it does. I think he should be called Wile. E. Coyote "Genius" because the similaries between the two is quite uncanny.

This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.

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Maddon's Mission

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Jul 20, 2010 7:23 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I clarified it by saying when he retires a pitcher on fire.

Sometimes it helps to keep the momentum going when a picher has had good outs against the previous batters. Just because a lefty comes in, doesn’t automatically suggest to bring in Choate. Maddon tends to do that alot. Sometimes it works and other times it doesn’t. Choate does the job he’s supposed to do and if Balfour or Benoit are hot, i would rather they stay in then have them retired.

by AUSSIExRULES on Jul 20, 2010 8:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Use the "reply" button.

It keeps the discussion going more fluidly.

by rglass44 on Jul 20, 2010 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, he'd rather ignore it when Choate gets the out and harp on it when Choate gives up a hit

Some people like him also just see what they want to see. They look for a player to meet their expectations. So, when Choate comes up with a big out, nothing is noticed. But when he gives up a hit, it turns into why Maddon shouldn’t be playing the match ups.

by Travis Lee on Jul 20, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Career vs. LH Batter splits (FIP, xFIP)

Benoit – 4.44, 4.53
Balfour – 3.01, 3.75
Wheeler – 4.79, 4.80
Choate – 2.51, 3.03
Cormier – 5.28, 4.77

As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.

by Buc Wild on Jul 20, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can you isolate the relief only innings?

And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.

2010 Trade Deadline Primer --> http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah because I would expect Benoit's numbers against lefties to be better since moving to relief

Either way, Choate wins by a long shot. Not only can he induce the grounder, but he racks up about a K an inning versus lefties.

by Travis Lee on Jul 20, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure how to do that on fangraphs or where to go for that data.

As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.

by Buc Wild on Jul 20, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Balfour 1.98

Benoit 1.38
Choate 3.26
Cormier 3.72
Sonny 3.72
Wheeler 4.76

by AUSSIExRULES on Jul 20, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry to crush your hopes and dreams but...

This year vs. LH Batter splits (FIP, xFIP)

Benoit — 2.43, 1.90
Balfour — 1.87, 3.57
Wheeler — 5.06, 4.93

Choate — 2.29, 2.18
Cormier — 4.31, 5.26

Even with the small sample size, you are still wrong. Maybe you would be right if you took the first 3 games of the year, but that would be even more illogical than comparing 40 innings of stats amongst the pitchers. Choate over Wheeler against the lefties. Nice try.

by Travis Lee on Jul 20, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wasn't aware i had an agenda.

I can only go by what i see and the observations i make. I got those stats from mlb.com. I’m an ex professional sportsman and not a Rhodes Scholar. Seems everyone on here is out to shoot the messenger for starting a conversation. For what it’s worth i think the feel of how the game is going is way better then reaching for the stats book.

by AUSSIExRULES on Jul 20, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not trying to cut you down, but I disagree with your assertion of Maddon

Sure, a player’s confidence means something and it’s hard to measure with statistics. But the numbers never lie and are relied upon for a reason. Randy Choate, flat out, retires left-handed bats. Especially when it comes to bullpens, it is beneficial to play the match ups. You can’t gamble with a one run lead late the in the game. Just because Wheels looks good, doesn’t mean he’s invincible. A lot of times, bullpen guys are one or two pitches away from giving up a lead or a chance to win the game. You can’t measure confidence, but you can keep track of a guys strengths and weaknesses on paper. If you have the weapons to help you win a game, then use them. I’ve played tons of sports nonstop for my entire life, but that doesn’t turn me into a mind reader. So you can’t expect Joe Maddon to be one.

by Travis Lee on Jul 20, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Numbers never lie eh?

So when Luke Scott is 1 from 12 against Matt Garza, then he has no chance of hitting a home run against him with his next at bat?

by AUSSIExRULES on Jul 20, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

That comment almost doesn't deserve a response

SSS first of all — like Gilliss said. But just because numbers are favorable doesn’t mean they will work out every time. That’s just the game, but I hoped you would know that. By the way, Garza also went 1-2-3 in the first inning in under 10 pitches, so did your ever so accurate confidence meter predict back-to-back-to-back home runs? Didn’t think so.

by Travis Lee on Jul 20, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now there's a contradiction if ever i heard one.

Firstly you say to look at the stats and then you say just because numbers are favourable blah blah blah. Give me a break

by AUSSIExRULES on Jul 20, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just because I said the numbers don't lie doesn't mean I said the outcome is guaranteed

I am dumbfounded by your interpretation of what I’m saying. I will attempt to put it simply and succinctly for you. The numbers are there for a reason. They help identify strengths and weaknesses. Favorable numbers, however, can never guarantee an outcome — that is the nature of the game. They help determine the odds/probability of success in a given situation.

Yes, firstly, I said look at the stats. Then I said just because numbers are favorable doesn’t mean you are guaranteed success. That is not a contradiction — that is reality. Hong-Chih Kuo hasn’t given up a hit to LHH all year. I would bring him in to face a lefty because I like his chances. Why do I like them? Was it because his “confidence” when he was throwing in the pen? No, it’s because I like our chances to get the out(s). But I bet he gives up a hit to a lefty eventually, and when he does, that doesn’t mean it was the wrong decision to bring him in.

by Travis Lee on Jul 20, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

oops Choate just gave up a run and Brignac just homered.

Hong Kong Fuey doesn’t play for the Rays.

People who rely on stats have no feel for the game whatsoever.

by AUSSIExRULES on Jul 20, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

You got yours from MLB.com, we got these from fangraphs (or at least I did).

Why would you want to look at just this year? And even if you did, the numbers bear it out. You were willing to flaunt the numbers you found, but when we presented numbers you dismiss them.

As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.

by Buc Wild on Jul 21, 2010 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Todays game spoke volumes

People who rely on stats have no feel for the game whatsoever.

by AUSSIExRULES on Jul 21, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

But your numbers were valid when you were trying to prove a point.

As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.

by Buc Wild on Jul 21, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Choate has been very good against lefties

He has also excelled in medium and high leverage situations.

by Travis Lee on Jul 20, 2010 9:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Also, I have been saying it and just about everyone else has been saying it on this site

And, actually, even the St. Pete times finally acknowledged it. A lot of fans complain about Joe Maddon’s decision making, but what they don’t complain about is the team record. Stop complaining about a manager that has turned a $70 million payroll into the second best team in the majors. It’s OK to question each decision case-by-case, but to make a sweeping generalization about why he does this and that is just pointless. The shuffling of the lineup doesn’t matter because players expect to be shuffled around. I think a player’s “rhythm” might be thrown off with on-and-off playing time, but where they bat in the order doesn’t throw off their “rhythm.” Are you really saying that a professional athlete that has played baseball his entire life is affected by hitting 6th in the order after he batted 9th in the order the night before? Get real.

by Travis Lee on Jul 20, 2010 9:47 AM EDT reply actions  

If the Rays had a manager that made all the proper decisions then they could quite easily have the best record in the bigs

Joe is far from the worst manager in baseball, but he leaves a lot to be desired.

And Travis I disagree about rhythm. Players are creatures of habit. Consistency is a benefit. The players should have a reasonable idea where they are hitting. I understand having lefty/righty lineups, but why do they have to change nearly everyday?

Go Gators!!

by matthan on Jul 21, 2010 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Clearly you watch the game, but you don't understand it.

And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.

2010 Trade Deadline Primer --> http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2010 10:05 AM EDT reply actions  

YOU'VE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME...

this is a SBN Tampa Bay Editor’s Pick?

Boom. Outta Here.

by Ryan Gilliss on Jul 20, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Probably because the SBN editor needs a broad base

So he doesn’t understand baseball at the same level as most of the folks here. Same reason the sports talk guys don’t get it. Need to focus too much on other stuff, and too busy on everything to care to learn too much about any one thing.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 20, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would say he has no base...

Look at the selections. I am passionate about the Rays, but I am just as passionate about the other teams in this area. Hockey is probably the team I am least passionate about, but I could still be able to pick out something that was at least well written

Boom. Outta Here.

by Ryan Gilliss on Jul 20, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Frankly

This article is more accessible than most of them that are written on here. He’s targeting the mainstream, not the people who already read this blog every day.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 22, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

when is the next moments with Maddon

or whatever that was called, those were fun

by Dbullsfan on Jul 20, 2010 12:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Inside Joe's Head

Baseball is, of all the major sports that matter, the one most prone to orthodoxy. By that, I mean most situations that require tactical managerial moves have a "right" way and a "wrong" way, at least in the minds of many fans, players, coaches, owners, and media—even if there is not clear evidence to support these as the only right way to do things. No one will argue that a .200 hitter ought to be the anchor of the lineup (wait, forgot about Pena), or that a catcher ought to be leading off from time to time (oops, forgot about Jaso). Should pitchers be allowed to throw more than 100 pitches? Consensus says No. Does it make sense to bunt with the bases loaded with no one out? Most would say No. Mess around with the lineup every day? Many would say No.

And while there are piles of statistics and studies to support these orthodox positions, such stats often ignore the central reality that faces a manager: that the game is played by individuals, that it’s a game of matchups, and that psychology is the elephant in the room. And so, as a manager, you consider it all, dig into your own experiences, understand how your players are likely to perform in a given situation, and make the move you feel might most benefit the team at that moment. For example, if you have a starter on the mound who is more relaxed and much more effective pitching with a lead, even a small one, you might play to scratch out an early run, rather than bank on a big inning with those bases loaded and no one out early in the game. So a bunt might be called for in that situation. Maybe not, maybe so. But making that decision is what defines the subtle importance of a good manager.

So many classic baseball moves are just accepted, so much so that it actually hamstrings a manager. Since any managerial decision is really just a risk analysis (probability of success vs. consequences of failure), the strong pressure to do the "right" thing leads to fairly uncreative thinking, and in some cases, opportunity costs when a move that could have been made (though it may not have paid off handsomely) is not made.

A manager lives and dies with the criticism—knowing that much of the time the move they make will not pan out at that moment. But in the long run, the measurement of the collective success of those decisions is ultimately the record on the field. Yes, there are ways people have devised how to analyze whether the moves a manager makes have increased (or decreased) the success of the expected outcome. But again, such studies are inherently biased toward an orthodox decision-making model.

You’ve got to love Maddon’s approach. From challenging hoodie laws, to subtlely criticizing umpiring by yelling at his own player, to acting as union organizer in calling for a review of the balk rule, to shuffling lineups, using a combination of psychology and statistics, he’s redefining how the game is managed. His secret is that while he takes his job very seriously, he puts baseball in its proper perspective relative to other important things off the field…which allows him to look at each decision he makes on the field with a combination of amusement, detachment, and ruthless innovation. Frankly, he scares and confuses people. And they love him for it.

Gotta love that.

by Calif on Jul 20, 2010 2:43 PM EDT reply actions  

I think you've hit the nail on the head for the most part, but I take umbrage with this:
But again, such studies are inherently biased toward an orthodox decision-making model.

I think they are inherently biased toward what produces the best result, regardless of religion. I think he’s the best manager in the game and puts up with a lot of shit for what he gets out of the team.

And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.

2010 Trade Deadline Primer --> http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 20, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

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