Gammons Report: Rumblings of Cliff Lee/B.J. Upton Trade In St. Pete
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 6, 2010 12:20 PM EDT
Email
PrintOur first rumor of the trade season, courtesy of Peter Gammons on Twitter:
pgammo: Rumblings around St. Pete ballpark was a BJ Upton-Cliff Lee deal. 3-way?
Obviously this could turn out to be nothing, but the Cliff Lee rumors have begun to intensify the past couple of days. Normally the Rays play things close to the chest, so I'd be a little surprised if a trade of this magnitude slipped through. If there are any more developments during the day, we'll be sure to update you as they come along.
742 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I hate computer issues
This should have been up much earlier. Damn.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 6, 2010 12:21 PM EDT reply actions
Dear Peter Gammons-
Thanks for writing my show today. Now I can go get drunk for the next two and a half hours in my super VIP room at the Venue.
Love,
Stephen “The Big Dog” Duemig
p.s. Yes I did give myself that nickname.
Boom. Outta Here.
Does anyone know the specifics of the contracts?
Couple of thoughts;
Don’t the Rays need another bat instead of starting pitching?
Why would the Mariners make this trade?
Can the Rays afford Lee?
Why would the Mariners make this trade?!
go away percival
..
1. We could use both.
2. They are slipping from contention and want something for him.
3. Yes.
4. See 2
I think that's why Gammons speculated a three-way
Upton to the Mariners doesn’t make sense.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Give em Pena TOOOOOOO
Lets get rid of all our Batting problems in the same trade
by StylezMcKoolaid on Jul 6, 2010 12:25 PM EDT reply actions
Do it. ;_;
PLAY BALL DANG IT !!!!!!!
by PlayOnWords on Jul 6, 2010 12:27 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Start Zobrist at 1st and let Rodriguez play 2nd for the rest of the season and let Brignac and Bartlett fight for SS Kapler and Joyce can fight for RF….LETS DO IT!!!!!!
by StylezMcKoolaid on Jul 6, 2010 12:27 PM EDT reply actions
Love Upton, but...
If we’re not going to use him everyday AND could get Cliff Lee in a potential deal, let’s do it. Of course this could just be like every other rumor and be nothing.
Upton could blossom, but if he doesn’t sign long term it doesn’t matter as he’ll be out in 2 years. Sure CLee would be a rental, but if he pushes this team to playoffs and beyond, the revenue would be worth it + compensation picks. If we happen to pick up a few flags…its all worth it.
www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Jul 6, 2010 12:29 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Agreed...
but we are doing something wrong if we are not using Upton.
Boom. Outta Here.
by Ryan Gilliss on Jul 6, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Bring up Johnson or use him as an attractive "throw" in (with Upton) to get Lee
Let’s face it. We cannot count on Gaza, Shields or Davis to be a consistent quality starter in the 2nd half.
Shields might be the best starter on the staff, but he's definitely top 2 with Price.
Garza isn’t far away from Niemann.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
So if we trade Upton for Lee,
I guess Davis goes back to Triple-A for remainder of the year and then we’re still stuck with a crammed rotation next season. Not a bad situation, though.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 6, 2010 12:32 PM EDT reply actions
This makes perfect sense for the Rays in oh so many ways
If BJ is the best player we give up in this deal—do it now
Rays should not bring this guy back at probably a $4 million dollar price tag to see another year of stats that a Ruggiano could give
I don’t like Lee for several reasons, none of them his ability to dominate an opposing line up
We have a couple holes in this rotation and any team that gets Lee will be better for it
I'm sure Ruggiano can get to every fly ball that Upton can.
Voodoo Five - South Florida Bulls SBN Blog
The Toughest Blog in America
by Jamie DeVriend on Jul 6, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Ruggs?
Deezy, please.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 6, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
This was mentioned on Sunday
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/jul/04/sp-shields-looking-for-50th-career-win-today/sports-rays/
…hope this isn’t Gammons source
by Sticky Bandit on Jul 6, 2010 12:36 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
A deal like this would bring me great joy. BJ Upton has been my favorite player
and is a huge reason why I became a Rays fan, but if he’s going to be traded, Seattle is just about the only place I would be happy to see him play other than Tampa. It would hurt a little to see Zobrist running around CF after the beauty that is BJ Upton playing out there, but the white people in Tampa would be stoked.
Tools Whore
I think 8 would rather Rodriguez in CF, if Jennings isnt called up.
www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Jul 6, 2010 12:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think I*
Stupid mobile shift key.
www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Jul 6, 2010 12:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
There's no reason not to call up Jennings if Upton gets traded
Putting anyone else there makes the team worse now, and he will have already avoided Super-2 at this point.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
exactly DJ can play the same outfield
And if he can hit .220 there is no offensive drop-off
go away percival
Do people actually expect DJ to play defense as well as BJ?
Boom. Outta Here.
by Ryan Gilliss on Jul 6, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Some scouts seemed to think so.
After all, before the season started, people were referring to the potential of having Jennings play CF with Upton in RF if Jennings got called up this year. That’s quite indicative of DJ’s fielding prowess.
Hadn't seen anyone saying that they would move BJ to right...
I saw talk about putting Jennings in right.
Boom. Outta Here.
I think the BJ to right talk was more because
Of his stronger arm.
Yes
His arm isn’t as good, but he’s just as fast and runs good routes.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
One such reason not to is due to Jennings' arb clock.
With the injury issues that he’s had so far, the Rays want to make sure he’s fully healthy before starting his service time. With that in mind, we might not see Desmond up until June 2011.
His arb clock would be no different
if he’s brought up now versus the beginning of next year.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
And I'm not sure that waiting until June 2011 is a legitimate option
Unless they really want to run an outfield of Joyce-Perez-Zobrist for a half season (assuming that Upton is traded and Rodriguez has locked up 2B).
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
That's my concern...
we have quickly gone from a wealth of outfielders to it being one of the weaknesses of the team.
Boom. Outta Here.
I think I would too
But I think the FO would lean towards Zo based on big league experience in the OF. I speculate that to be the case based on the resistance to put Zo out in right field in the first place in 08-09.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Rodriguez has been really good at 2B
Between those 2 it’s just a wash anyways, both play a great 2B and a below avg CF, probably
by Sticky Bandit on Jul 6, 2010 12:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
in a three team deal i don't see SEA being where he lands
They have Gut in CF and why trade for a BJ if you plan to play him anywhere else?
Yes.
Seattle, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, or San Diego. Somewhere that I know he’ll be loved and have a nice big yard to run around in.
Sigh.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I like allusion to BJ being a beloved pet set free
Whether or not it’s accidental, it’s golden.
by Lurch's Lobbyists on Jul 6, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
If B.J. made an out like Evan did last night where he barely ran do you think it would be a bigger deal?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you speaking of the 1st inning play?
I think confusion was more his problem there
i never see fans attack CC when he slumps or refused to play CF or bat lead off, and he sure is no blonde hair, blue eyed poster boy
It's a lot easier to attack a player with a .330 OBP then it is a player with a .380 OBP.
And I did attack him last year, just like pretty much everyone on this site. There was an entire thread of CC bashing specifically designed for CC bashing. I wish I could find it.
I hope you understand how provocative and irritating a statement such as "baseball is played on the field not on paper" is. It is the kind of moronic critique that anti-sabermetric neanderthals use (along with the unfunny "mother’s basement" canard) to debunk what they do not understand.
of course he was bashed, but like anyone else
who goes into slumps, not skin color
i’m from an older generation and even i don’t see that type of thing much any more
First inning I think. Where he hit two foul (well, he thought the second one was foul) balls
And ran like a combined five feet.
Brian Anderson and Dewayne Staats RAILED on Upton for not running on a foul bunt in 2008.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Jesus Christ RJ--give itn up
I’ve heard them many times encouraging BJ even for the slightest thing like taking a pitch or hitting the ball the opposite way, but for the most part they call it pretty fair
I swear Anderson did some fill-in work that year too.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe that he did too...
Todd also filled in on some games. Was that the same year Dewayne’s wife died?
Boom. Outta Here.
RJ, you are correct.
Brian Anderson was the fill-in for Joe Magrane on a west coast road trip, while Joe covered the Olympics for NBC.
I can hear the dialogue now between Staats and whoever
Brian Anderson:Dewayne it sure sseems like BJ is a bit off his game these days
Dewayne Staats: Why not all Brian, he’s still sitting at a league average 330 wOBA ya know
BA: oops missed that Dewayne and look he’s still posting a 1.1 WAR. Forget what i said, he’s fine. Go Rays
by sternfan1 on Jul 6, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Here's what i think
after teasing fans with his play in ’07 and then again in the playoffs of ’08, fans have a right to expect more from this overall #2 draft pick who for the last 2 1/2 years has basically laid an egg
It started during his best season. When the torn labrum news came out
You had morons like the Fabulous Sports Babe claiming he faking it so people wouldn’t criticize him.
Some of it is definitely race-based. All of it? I doubt it. I just think there’s a lot of people in this fan base who have no idea how to evaluate baseball. That’s true for most fan bases, but I’m exposed to this one at a higher rate than the rest combined.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
It certainly plays into it.
Without a doubt. Explicit racism has been knocked out, but unconscious racism is still very much a problem in this country.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 6, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at Pat Burrell in PHLA-Rod with the Yankees, Hafner with the Indians, Ted Williams with the Red Sox
i could go on and on about countless players who have had problems with fans and media alike and the color of their skin has nothing to do about it
And I can name three types of cancer that aren't caused by cigarette smoking
One has nothing to do with the other, and arods situation has no bearing on bj’s
by GomesSweetGomes on Jul 6, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Racism isn't American
It’s world wide.How America has dealt with it should be applauded,not shamed.
Very true. Don't take my words to mean I'm not criticizing the US and the way we've dealt with racism.
It’s just a really tough problem to eradicate. But anyway, this is getting OT quickly, so if anyone wants to continue this convo, bring it to the OTTOTD.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 6, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I will only say one thing about this...
and I think it’s hard to say that how the US has handled racism should be applauded.
Boom. Outta Here.
At the risk of a massive sub-thread hijack...
I think we as a nation have done a great job of changing the conventional wisdom so that open racism is no longer tolerated. BUT, it took way too long, and the ultimate goal of changing the culture so that racism no longer exists is still a long, long, long way off.
So I’ll agree on the applause, but it’s quiet, golf clap applause.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Genocide on racism is still genocide.
And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.
Racism only truly exists in small subcultures within this nation
It really isn’t relevant to mainstream America.
Go Gators!!
Wow
Wish you were right. But I believe you are very wrong.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly I don't see it
Sure some blacks hate whites in the hood, and some whites hate blacks in some rural areas. But in mainstream America? Doesn’t really exist. We coexist, we are friendly, we shop together, we go to sporting events together, we work together, etc. Sure people make jokes, but so what? A racist joke doesn’t equal racism. People make jokes about anything and everything.
Go Gators!!
ha ha
ask someone that’s not white if that statement is correct.
This.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 6, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
It has nothing to do with race. Maybe 1% of the population
The cause of BJ’s lack of popularity is fairly easy to determine, some causes:
1. The public’s lack of baseball knowledge other than BA and homers.
2. Being the #2 pick and not meeting the expectations of a #2 pick; especially in terms of #1
3. Public campaigns by people like Steve Duemig has significantly influence on the people I’m referencing in #1
Then suppliment it with BJ’s clear lack of hustle on certain plays. Other players take plays off, but they don’t have this sense of a huge disappointment with them.
It really has nothing to do with race. What amazes me is this board is so quick to throw the race card out there with close to no evidence, yet everything else has to have evidence. The other day someone accused Beltre and Ortiz of roids and got quickly bashed (and rightfully so), yet it is perfectly acceptable to label a metropolitan area racist? What is the evidence? This area has embraced plenty of black players recently as well as plenty of white players. And they’ve been upset with white players as well.
Is BJ being treated unfairly? Yes. But it isn’t because of race. It is because he is a disappointment relative to expectations.
Go Gators!!
When newspaper commenters say "go back to the ghetto" I think that's a pretty good indicator that some of it is race-based.
Not all. But some. Dismissing race as a factor is being naive.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
It may be on the list
But if he were white he would still be getting 99% of the crap he is getting now. If he performed better, relative to the public’s expectations, he"d be getting 0% of this crap.
Go Gators!!
None
But I don’t see why it always has to be the focal issue when there are many bigger issues in play.
Go Gators!!
FWIW, I agree with Matthan that it comes down mostly to expectation v. performance
I’m sure there’s a small degree of innate racism, but people don’t boo Longo for not running out that grounder because he doesn’t have a track record (true or not talk radio has increased this perception) of taking plays off.
And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.
There will be racism no matter what era we live in
you can’t change bigot people, you can only make them hide in the shadows by creating a culture that dispises that type of behavior. But just because there are a few morons, that does not mean we need to throw the race card out there when the MAIN reason 99% of people are upset with Upton is his LACK OF PRODUCTION. And it isn’t like this is the first time he hasn’t run something out. People notice it because he’s done it before. So people are naturally trigger happy when someone repeats a mistake.
Folks, it isn’t like he’s only having a bad year this year like Bartlett. Bartlett was awesome for the Rays last year offensively. So since he’s not doing anywhere near that this year, people ignore him. They still hope (although blindly) he will work his way out of the .230 “slump”.
But PtB was booed and hated for his lack of performance. The point is, if there are some racial undertones going on, that is not the reason why the 99% majority of people are upset with Upton. It’s hard to root for a guy who in appearance doesn’t give his all 100% of the time, has been reprimanded for it, said it was over and done with, and then does it again…only to complain about a lack of “everyday” playing time.
To call this a racial issue almost creates a defense for an individual who deserves to be criticized for his lack of production.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 6, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
...that does not mean we need to throw the race card out there when the MAIN reason 99% of people are upset with Upton is his LACK OF PRODUCTION.
I hope you understand how provocative and irritating a statement such as "baseball is played on the field not on paper" is. It is the kind of moronic critique that anti-sabermetric neanderthals use (along with the unfunny "mother’s basement" canard) to debunk what they do not understand.
FUCK
What I meant to say is, that I agree with this, as long as it isn’t suffixed by ‘and that’s because he’s lazy/black/jungle bunny/porchmonkey/a cancer/a thug’.
Unfortunately, that happens pretty much every time it’s brought up.
I hope you understand how provocative and irritating a statement such as "baseball is played on the field not on paper" is. It is the kind of moronic critique that anti-sabermetric neanderthals use (along with the unfunny "mother’s basement" canard) to debunk what they do not understand.
i understand the lazy = he's black racism bullshit
and it is an easy way for racist people to call a black person lazy without worrying about being called racist in this case.
So I get it. I understand it’s not a cut and dry issue because of this hanging over it.
But some people are frustrated because Upton is doing this and they are not trying to make a racist comment. He’s been reprimanded by his manager and teammates. It’s a valid complaint, and it’s horrible that it is being misused by anyone with racial intents.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 6, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm with you here, I've been complaining about his performance for a little while now.
Unfortunately, I’m still seeing that direct association made every time I see it. If you want to be taken seriously, you simply can’t call him lazy. You’re bunching yourself in with people who are calling him lazy because he’s black.
I hope you understand how provocative and irritating a statement such as "baseball is played on the field not on paper" is. It is the kind of moronic critique that anti-sabermetric neanderthals use (along with the unfunny "mother’s basement" canard) to debunk what they do not understand.
by kericr on Jul 6, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
for the sake of keeping people on point
using a different word is best. But there is more than one problem here. There are racial undertones when calling a black person lazy, and there are trigger happy people ready to pull out the race card even when it doesn’t warrant it. It detracts from the main issue.
It’s sad, really…but nonetheless, a different word can be used. I’d just rather point to the fact that people have seen how talented BJ can be, and are frustrated that they have only seen glimpses and haven’t seen him blossom. He’s an average player with above average defense. It’s just people were expecting so much more. And instead of seeing him become who they thought he’d be, he’s making headlines for all the wrong reasons. And without even going into the running/not running issue, he’s complaining about not being an everyday player. Can he ever keep his mouth shut? IF he was playing like his brother he’d be an every day player. How many “every” day players does Maddon have? Outside of Longo, I’ve seen others get seated every now and then. It would just be better if BJ never opened his mouth.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 6, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Jason Bartlett is getting all kinds of crap this year.
Wait, no he’s not. Not from the same group that bash B.J. constantly.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair, that's a little different
The public criticism of BJ is mainly for attitude/hustle issues and only incidentally for low batting average.
The DRB criticism of JB is mainly for lack of production and virtually not at all for attitude/hustle issues.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Matthan's point was it's almost entirely expectations v. performance-based though.
Wouldn’t Bartlett receive that hate if this were the case?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody is out there saying Bartlett sucks
The drumbeat on the BJ sucks band is extremely loud. The public still thinks Bartlett is a good player.
Go Gators!!
But you're saying it's about expectations versus performance.
And Bartlett was great last year. He sucks this year. B.J. was great in 2007 (to the public, BA/HR/RBI/SB obviously) and awful this year. Why isn’t Bartlett hated?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Because he hustles
More specifically, he appears to give full effort the all, or nearly all, of the time.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Right.
Which means it’s not 100% expectation v. performance. That plays into it too, obviously, I’m just not sure it’s the breadwinner.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
We both seem to disagree to some extent with Matthan on this point.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
I don’t think it’s mostly race-based or mostly-performance based. There’s a lot of variables.
Hopefully it doesn’t present itself for Desmond Jennings’ time here.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I've been thinking about putting something together on this.
I’ll see what I can do.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 6, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think effort and hustle has a lot to do with it
I just don’t fall into the trap that they are calling him lazy because he is black. They are calling him lazy because the media calls him lazy and Maddon benches him nearly once a year because of it.
Go Gators!!
This 100x This
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
Of course
But how often is CC being benched for it? Or Price being skipped for it?
Go Gators!!
Of course effort plays into it
But that isn’t racist.
Compare and contrast Winslow v Bryant in this town. They are both lazy loafers. Yet people have a far higher opinion of Winslow. Why?
Go Gators!!
People have a high opinion of Winslow?!?
Really?
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
After last year, yeah.
Damn, has it been that long? Is that what happens since I been gone, homie?
they go the game all wrong, it’s too pretty in here, lets say we take it back to the trap one time
by 4QB on Jul 6, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Though, I might digress,
We had no reciever’s on the team last year, so K2 was a savior-esque guy.
Damn, has it been that long? Is that what happens since I been gone, homie?
they go the game all wrong, it’s too pretty in here, lets say we take it back to the trap one time
by 4QB on Jul 6, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Your presence here is a cancer.
You are cancer.
I hope you have cancer.
I hope you understand how provocative and irritating a statement such as "baseball is played on the field not on paper" is. It is the kind of moronic critique that anti-sabermetric neanderthals use (along with the unfunny "mother’s basement" canard) to debunk what they do not understand.
by kericr on Jul 6, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I hope I do not have cancer, but phony trade rumors may cause them.
I did not see the OP leading to this, but should have, thanks.
Bartlett had a great year last year, Upton didn't
it still is expectation v performance…but you have to include previous year performance as well. People will generally cut you a little slack if you are coming off a great year or have a good track record.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 6, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Bartlett
Going back to my list; I’d say #3 is the primary factor. Public influential faces make Bartlett out to be a great player. The sheep follow behind. That doesn’t make the sheep racist, it makes them unintelligent.
Go Gators!!
He's got a .224 BA.
That’s awful. They don’t know what BABIP is, so why isn’t he being accused of not trying?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Are they being spoon-fed an opinion that he's awful?
And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.
This is exactly the point
The media has pumped up Bartlett to the point the public thinks he is some good player with tons of intangibles. That is what the public thinks. It’ll take a heck of a lot of clear poor play to burn that goodwill. Clearly it isn’t deserved, but it is what it is.
Go Gators!!
The average fan does not watch all that many games and will argue emotionally.
They don’t care that Barty has a low BA because they don’t know what it is.
And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.
They don't know what his batting average is
They just repeat the garbage that they hear on the radio as if it’s fact.
And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.
They don't form their own opinions. They listen to media and let them make the opinions for them.
I hope you understand how provocative and irritating a statement such as "baseball is played on the field not on paper" is. It is the kind of moronic critique that anti-sabermetric neanderthals use (along with the unfunny "mother’s basement" canard) to debunk what they do not understand.
I think it is a little to do with race
If for no other reason than it plays so perfectly into the stereotype — blacks are supposedly “lazy”, BJ is black, BJ is accused of being lazy.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
What other blacks in this area have been accused of being lazy?
Keeping count here on the 2010 Rays squad it looks like we are pretty equitable with the lazy acquisations
1 White- PtB
1 Hispanic- Navi
1 Black- BJ
Go Gators!!
Are you kidding me? It was nearly as bad as BJ
Go Gators!!
I agree. PTB was pretty hated. I'd say the boos were far worse (and more justified)
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
I'm not saying it didn't happen...
I’m just saying I didn’t hear people say PtB was “lazy”, they said he sucked as a ballplayer, but not that he was lazy.
Boom. Outta Here.
I heard plenty saying that he was lazy
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
I'm sorry
It’s rather ignorant to think the race card is not in play here, and this is coming from the pastiest guy in this place. He could play at 110% of his talent and people would still call him lazy because he makes it look too easy. You list Burrell below but don’t mention Blalock who got 0 crap from the general populous despite being worse than Burrell on the season.
by Jason Collette on Jul 6, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The public didn't realize Blalock was worse
He was here for a month, and barely played.
You are giving the public entirely too much credit.
This area has seen plenty of black players in many different sports. Why is BJ getting treated so differently than all of them?
Go Gators!!
Blalock hit .254, relative to this team at the time, it was nowhere near the bottom
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Blalock's nickname was mighty fitting.
If you didn’t know any better he was tanking some AB for cash.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Because he has had many more, and many more obvious
Displays of lack of hustle than any of the others.
Nobody else dogs it down the line on grounders as often as BJ. Everybody does it sometimes, but nobody does it as often as BJ.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Hadn't noticed
Of course, Aybar doesn’t play as often (thank goodness), so the opportunity to observe his lack of hustle has been limited.
But I’ll take your word for it anecdotally.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. I just think of Aybar as sluggish.
Although last night he didn’t run immediately after he hit that blooper, he still got into second though.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Because it looked foul.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
How?
It’s in the left-center gap, that’s CF priority. CC gets to that, but I don’t think anyone else does.
How? He made a mistake, that's how. Nobody's dismissing the action, I'm just calling it a mistake instead of laziness or lack-of-hustle.
I hope you understand how provocative and irritating a statement such as "baseball is played on the field not on paper" is. It is the kind of moronic critique that anti-sabermetric neanderthals use (along with the unfunny "mother’s basement" canard) to debunk what they do not understand.
Exactly...
laziness shouldn’t even be used to talk about a professional athlete. Unless you are talking about a semi-pro soccer team like FC Tampa Bay.
Boom. Outta Here.
Well you are talking about judging a ball on where it's flight was going to take it
Boom. Outta Here.
Apples and oranges
One is a slicer near the line and the other was in clearly in BJ’s area. I’m not saying he’s chronically lazy, but he dogged it on a ball that was clearly his.
Either way Aybar isn't exactly a Swede...
So I’m not sure how this helps out the argument that it has anything to do with race.
It certainly strengthens the point that BJ is being treated unfairly, but not due to race.
Go Gators!!
I think
That was FreeZo’s point in citing that example.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
BJ is not being treated unfairly by anyone that matters...
his history of lack of focus, along with the color of his skin contributes to an unfair perception of him as a lazy malcontent.
Boom. Outta Here.
It's hard to tell the difference between Aybar "hustling" and him "dogging it".
He is so slow
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
Aybar also weights an entire Navi more than BJ I'd guess.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
The average person does not watch every game, but does probably hear an hour of talk radio every day
They re-iterate what they are told. I’m in agreement.
And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.
Please stop
With the “people would call him lazy because he makes it look too easy” tripe. Give your fellow fans the credit they deserve and give BJ the blame he deserves, which in both cases is partial.
Nobody is dogging BJ for a play that he made look easy. Nobody dogs BJ for plays that he successfully completes. Fans are able to discern the difference between being lazy and “making it look easy”. Really. They are. And that’s not what’s happening here — that’s just the BJ apologists’ favorite crutch.
BJ loafs. Not all the time or even the majority of the time, but a noticeable portion of the time. If he decides that his hustling won’t make a difference, there is a good chance that he won’t hustle. And fans notice. Especially on plays where it turns out BJ was wrong and hustling really would have made a difference.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I would also submit
that a public argument with the “face of the franchise” doesn’t help the public perception of Bossman.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
Gomes yelling at Maddon didn't hurt his reputation with the fans.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
--------------------------------->
.
And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.
No, that looks like this
====)
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
Shit
in before I get railed on for this one.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
Shouldve been this - 8===========================)
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
Oh hey, the area loves a white guy who beat up a black guy.
What a shocker.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
If Upton charged the mound and beat up a Red Sox player
I’m sure he would earn points with the media
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
Nah, he'd be a thug.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Ya just like I heard everyone calling Gerald Williams a thug
I hope you were joking
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
Gerald Williams is illegal in Tampa, sir, and I never joke.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
And arguing with Maddons is certainly different than
arguing with Longo.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
If BJ flapped his arms and shook his head wildly side to side while running, would he look better?
Just go back and look at Zobrist’s CF play this past weekend. He looked like he was having seizures chasing some of those flyballs down on balls Upton makes look very easy. I’m to the point I hope he leaves and comes back here and kicks our ass every single time he plays us because people in this area aren’t happy unless they have someone to blame for something with this team. Hell, Willy Aybar stood at home plate and watched a ball that landed fair last night and Longoria barely hustled out of the box on a swinging bunt. BJ does either of these things and the ropes are coming out and those two got zero attention. There’s a tremendous double standard in this fanbase when it comes to BJ and it’s bullshit. I’m sorry he’s more talented at baseball than all of us, combined, but it’s no reason to bust the guy’s balls at every turn when he is doing nothing different than any other starter on this team 99% of the time. He has ONE bad day in 2010 and ignorant fans and media types make it seem like it his modus operandi.
It’s not BJ’s fault he’s been more productive at the plate than both Longoria and Zobrist over the past month.
by Jason Collette on Jul 6, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with all of what you are saying
I just don’t think it has anything to do with race.
Go Gators!!
Why isn't Drew Stubbs catching hell for his jogging on a Ryan Howard triple?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Does Drew Stubbs have a history of not hustling?
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
Didn't he just hit like 2 homers in a game?
Go Gators!!
Did his manager bench him? Did the star on the team publicly bash him? Did the media jump on that train?
Go Gators!!
Of course not on the last one. He's white.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
So call Duemig a racist
That doesn’t mean the entire public is racist.
Go Gators!!
Nobody is a "racist" here...let's not get too carried away.
We’re talking about implicit attitudes that many of us to varying degrees, whether we like it or not. Even if Duemig is being especially harsh on him, I highly, highly doubt it’s because he’s an explicit racist. It’s just that these implicit attitudes are very tough to detect, nonetheless get rid of. Ever take the Implicit Association Test? If not, it’s worth checking out.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 6, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I can accept the fact that him being black might have a small effect on his perception of being lazy
but to say it’s the reason behind this is ridiculous.
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
I don't think anyone actually said it's THE reason.
It’s not a black/white argument. There are shades of gray.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha!
I hope you meant that.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes.
It’s not a black/white argument . . . in the midst of a discussion about racism.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Nobody is saying it’s the reason, but to discount that it might be having an effect is…well, disappointing.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 6, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
That is fine and all. But how can you justify a roid accusation ban while also parading the Tampa Bay is full of racists stance?
If we need evidence for one shouldn’t we need it for the other?
Go Gators!!
There is evidence of one and not the other...
read up on the Gladwell that was dismissed on SBNTampaBay
Boom. Outta Here.
I'm not saying the area is full of racists.
But I don’t think racism is an indie thing.
Also if you’re saying Duemig is a racist, and the area takes on his opinion as fact, then um, you’re saying the area is pretty racist too.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
And to be clear: take any population
And you’ll have morons and racists and all the like. It’s not a Tampa Bay thing. It just seems more prevalent because of the exposure.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm saying this area is full of racists.
The flag on I-75 would be Exhibit A.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Suits me just fine.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You do have one of those, yes.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
Since I don’t believe that flag means everyone here is racist and that it’s an inherently racist thing.
That is a very closed-minded perspective.
Also uninformed.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Because you believe one thing, which is incorrect, and refuse to think differently.
QED.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
What is incorrect?
That the Confederate flag is not inherently racist? Or that not everyone here is racist? What am I refusing to think differently about, my stance on the flag in regards to racism? You refuse to think differently on that point, does that make you racist.
My stance is correct, therefore, it is not incorrect.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn't egotistical.
Sign lady must die.
dude, this one's over and so is the season
by sternfan1 on Jun 19, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
by EminenceFront on Jul 6, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
There is no spoon.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
?
You said the area takes Duemig’s word as gospel. If Duemig is racist, which I don’t think he is, but if you think he is, and the area takes on his personality/thoughts, then by extension, the area is racist, no?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Or, to phrase it better:
The area’s ideals are based in racism, whether or not it’s intended is based on their inability to analyze and think about baseball independent of Steve Duemig.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think Duemig is a racist
I think he has poor baseball knowledge but is a tremendous radio host in terms of gaining viewers. Combine the two and you have a rough campaign. Plus I do think he takes his personal biases and tries to mold sporting policy because of it.
He railroaded Gruden out of town.
Go Gators!!
Have you heard the black people who call his show? I'm only suprised that he doesn't play the part at the beginning of the calls that says they're calling from federal imprisonment institutions.
I hope you understand how provocative and irritating a statement such as "baseball is played on the field not on paper" is. It is the kind of moronic critique that anti-sabermetric neanderthals use (along with the unfunny "mother’s basement" canard) to debunk what they do not understand.
So anyone who says BJ is lazy is racist?
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
Saying everyone is racist is as insane
As saying nobody is racist.
Race plays a role. How big? Nobody knows. I don’t think it’s 90% nor 10%. It’s somewhere in the middle.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I would say that someone who says BJ is lazy is not very smart...
and most racists are not very smart.
Boom. Outta Here.
Ryan, I definitely think you have the most extreme POV
on here about how much BJ’s race influences him being called lazy. I just can’t agree that he would be being treated in a totally different manner all things being the same except for his race.
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
Maybe my opinion is extreme...
because I don’t think that is the right word to describe his transgressions.
Boom. Outta Here.
I agree
but it’s much easier to say lazy then to say he has lapses in judgement more then a normal player
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
The worst thing that happened to BJ was Joe Maddon's public punishments
Maddon should have done that stuff behind close doors. It just put a whole lot of gas on the fire that was brewing in talk radio land.
This is the one issue Maddon has handled very poorly.
Go Gators!!
Knowing what a racially charged word that is...
I try to not use it to describe people, esp. THE BLACKS.
Boom. Outta Here.
So you can't say lazy now
because somewhere along the way someone decided to say that all blacks are lazy?
So never again can you call a person who is lazy and happens to be black, lazy?
Does that not sound absurd? I’m a pretty lazy person and will freely admit that, but because in the past it was a stereotype that blacks are lazy you cannot use that word? That is beyond oversensitive.
Hmmm So you treat someone different because of race
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
Not at all
I’m just pointing out that you’re trying clean something up that doesn’t need to be cleaned up. It’s not a slur or anything, it’s an adjective to describe people who don’t want to work hard.
It's inappropriately applied to BJ IMO...
by virtue of becoming a MLB player. Also, I’ve got quite a few black friends. There are things that are said that they would react differently to because of their life experiences. Shit that I never could imagine until they explained them to me. Now my perspective has changed. That’s not going to be something i apologize for.
Boom. Outta Here.
You do realize that blacks aren't the only disadvantaged people, right?
It’s a lot more about social class than race in this country.
So now you think black people should be in a lower social class than white people?
HERE WE GO AGAIN.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah? Well, you're not a fireman.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Did I say anything about disadvantaged people?
I was talking about my interactions with my friends.
Boom. Outta Here.
My point is
Since you don’t say “lazy” around blacks, do you not say “bean” around Hispanic people? Or “zipper” around Japanese?
It's now where near the same thing...
what you are asking would be the equivalent of saying:
Since you don’t say "n!gger" around blacks, do you not say "beaner" around Hispanic people? Or "zipper" around Japanese?
The answer would be that I don’t.
Boom. Outta Here.
hahahahaha
Nope. Not racist at all.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Joking
Did I say anything about disadvantaged people? I was talking about my interactions with my friends.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
So if they used the word lackadaisical to describe him
Then it’s not racist
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
I'm saying you're a racist.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
That's very uninformed.
You should know a thing or two about the person you are talking about before you call someone racist.
I know as much as I need to know.
Racist.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
All firemen are racist, as are people named greg.
I hope you understand how provocative and irritating a statement such as "baseball is played on the field not on paper" is. It is the kind of moronic critique that anti-sabermetric neanderthals use (along with the unfunny "mother’s basement" canard) to debunk what they do not understand.
IAWTC
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what
Fuck you. You don’t know a God damned thing. Because I don’t believe the Confederate flag is inherently racist, I’m a racist. Got it. Fucking moron.
That's because you're racist.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
He's right. I am trolling you.
I hate black people just as much as you do, Greg.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Ad hominem attacks
The ammo of the racist.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Look up racist
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you read what I wrote?
I said I wouldn’t do it, and just because you called a black person lazy would NOT make you a racist.
Boom. Outta Here.
I am fine with this argument
but it sounded like most thought that if he was White then he wouldn’t be being criticized for being “lazy”. That would mean it is a main reason and I can’t agree with that
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
From below
Studies have found that when people of color act in ways that trigger negative group associations in the minds of whites, those whites often react in a much harsher manner than when a white person evinces the same attitude or behavior. The white athlete who is arrogant or ill tempered is seen through an individual lens, while the black athlete who does the same is seen as a representative of a larger racial group, and deemed threatening, angry, maybe even violent.
I don’t think it’s the reason he’s criticized as being lazy, but I think it’s a contributing reason why it’s made such a big deal of. That story won’t go away.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 6, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
This is exactly how it sounded
If we had a white player, that was a top 5 pick, that never reached his public potential/expectations. And he was constantly taking plays off, while also being publicly punished for it by the manager and the star player on the team..and also being on the bad side of the media…
Then he would have literally the exact same perception of BJ.
Race is the one variable that has close to no influence on public perception in this case…
Maddon benching him, Longo confronting him, Duemigs campaign…all are much bigger contributors. Those are the big variables.
If Maddon didn’t bench him in the public eye every single year the perception would be quite a bit different.
Go Gators!!
You are out of touch with reality...
I wish what you said were true, but it’s not.
Race is the one variable that has close to no influence on public perception in this case…
Did you see the link I posted that 24% of Americans don’t believe Obama was born in the US?
Boom. Outta Here.
I'm not sure exactly how you can say the birther argument is racist
Is it stupid? Probably. But they haven’t seen the evidence that satisfies them. They are probably far more disillusioned due to politics than color. The dislike of Obama has to do with his socialist tendencies…not his color.
And I was talking about this particular incident. Look at the variables. Do a mock senstivitiy analysis…
1. Race
2. Maddon’s benching
3. Duemigs campaign
Take one away, leave the other two constant. What variable is the least sensitive? Clearly it is race.
Maddon benching Upton had, by far, a bigger impact than race. The difference is from here to the moon.
Go Gators!!
You do realize that not all racism is intentional, right?
What other presidents have been asked to produce their “birth certificate” before?
Boom. Outta Here.
No other President had such a murky timeline prior to him being born
No other POTUS had such out of US ties as Obama.
If say Arnold (assuming he was an actual conservative) wanted to run for POTUS, and ‘said’ he was born in the USA, don’t you think the crazy left wing would try to prove that he wasn’t?
Go Gators!!
No politics.
Sign lady must die.
dude, this one's over and so is the season
by sternfan1 on Jun 19, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
by EminenceFront on Jul 6, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't want to get into a political argument...
but it is such a huge conspiratorial leap to think that someone would set up their child as an American citizen born in the US so they could someday become POTUS. It’s absolutely asinine. And maybe if we are trying to figure out what percentage of people are racist that 24% figure is a good start.
Boom. Outta Here.
I'm not entirely sure of your point
For him to be able to be POTUS he needs to be born in the United States. What exactly is wrong with verifying that?
You make it seem like his parents had to have had this conspriacy from the start. He could have easily went his whole life without needing to be a naturalized citizen until he ran for POTUS.
Go Gators!!
end of discussion
I can’t talk to anyone who actually thinks the birther theory has even a shred of credibility. It’s as retarded as the people who thought Trig was Palin’s 6th kid rather than her grandkid.
by Jason Collette on Jul 6, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't say that I thought it was true
That is a common assumption and a giant leap. I think every candidate should prove that they’ve meet the requirements. It is the biggest job in the whole entire world. I think every single one should clearly have meet the requirements, rather it is Obama, Sarah Palin, Rand Paul or anyone in between.
Go Gators!!
Shouldn't it be a common goal, between all Americans, that our POTUS has met the requirements?
Why are we so blinded by partisanship that we will turn the other eye when it comes to our guy potentially not meeting the requirements? Every single candidate should be scrubbed down.
Go Gators!!
I'm coming off poorly because I'm not blinded by partisanship?
I’ll take that as a compliment, thank you very much.
Go Gators!!
Awesome...
The guy insisting for the 1st time ever that a President produce his own version of his birth certificate is not a partisan hack? Brilliant
It takes a lot to get the dunce cap in this place, but he’s the king of the hill until someone knocks him off.
by Jason Collette on Jul 6, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
People are entitled to their opinions
But I have no time for anyone who gives 1% of credibility to the birther conspiracy because I live in reality. It isn’t a matter of what I believe politically but it take a gigantic escape from reality for anyone to look at the birther timeline and think it is worth investigating.
by Jason Collette on Jul 6, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
This is the blog war
It takes a lot to get the dunce cap in this place,
Comparing this argument as a representation of DRB, is like comparing BJ as a representation to blacks
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Right, because I said that
The level of intelligence in this subthread is sadly very low.
Go Gators!!
It is quite amazing
Somehow politics can make the most methodical intelligent person lose 100 IQ points in a second. It is really amazing.
Go Gators!!
Typical response from a partisan hack
You should take your thirst and pursuit of knowledge in the sporting arena and apply it to other areas in life. Just blindlybecoming partisan is pretty sad given the potential you show via baseball.
Go Gators!!
Nah
I wear a Rays hat in public, not a tin foil hat
by Jason Collette on Jul 6, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Rowdies hats are classier.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Fine, where were the requirements for the previous 43 candidates?
I can’t figure out what the difference was between the 1st 43 and Obama.
by Jason Collette on Jul 6, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Well the all have the same requirements...
The difference, besides being in the crazy internet blogging age, is that they were all clearly old white guys born in America. The fever pitch to verify eligibility is naturally going to be a lot lower if the person looks old enough, looks like an American, has an American name, and most importantly it is very clear where his parents were at the time of birth.
It is a clear difference. It has nothing to do with race. It is just simple common sense.
Go Gators!!
"Looks like an American and has an American name"
Nope. Not racist at all.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
ReasonableDoubt = Al Sharpton?
Now everything makes sense…
Go Gators!!
Also fags. And gingers.
Someone’s batting .333
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Take out Kenya, insert Switzerland and its a much weaker movement
The movement is founded on politics, but feasts on the ignorant to grow
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Actually, I'm fine with calling Duemig a racist.
"I have a formula for excitability actually." - RJ Anderson
by ReasonableDoubt on Jul 6, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Hahahaha
I think the first two have a much bigger part of why the media jumped on that train
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
The media's been on this train before Evan did anything.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
The national media?
Because for all I know they could be cursing Stubbs hustle on Cincy sports radio
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
I didn't hear any of those things happen here either...
obviously you are letting some “outside forces” color your memories.
Boom. Outta Here.
who are the most vocal about his play right now?
by Jason Collette on Jul 6, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you serious?
Sonny's Baby Mamas - http://twitter.com/r_j_anderson/status/16590999556
http://twitter.com/jasoncollette/status/16590980428
Isn't old white guys are entire fanbase?
Go Gators!!
Here's another question...
Is Longo racist? Because he obviously didn’t agree w/ something Upton did that day.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
It's not the action itself....
it’s the prism through which people evaluate those actions.
Boom. Outta Here.
That's not the point. The point is the general conversation/public opinion of BJ.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 6, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
But, it is a point...
because Longo is helping shape public perception. The whole argument added to the discussion about Bossman’s play.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
Would we even be talking about a possible Bossman play
if Longo said nothing to Upton that day?
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
Considering we've talked about it before.
It’s seemed highly unlikely that he’d re-sign for a while now. And his areas of success are not valued accurately with the free agency ranking system. Meaning the only way to guarantee a fair return is to trade him, and he’s only got two seasons after this left.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 6, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
It is exactly the point
The average fan is not on draysbay or fangraphs. They probably don’t even know what excel is, let alone do they know how to play baseball on a spreadsheet. Their opinions are built upon very fickle things. They are unknowledgable. They listen to what they believe are authorities on the subject.
The authorities on the subject in this town are pretty simple:
1. The team itself
2. Talk radio hosts
The team clearly thinks BJ loafs way more than the average player. He gets benched every year because of it. The star player just tore him a new one during a game. And clearly talk radio hosts think he is lazy.
Go Gators!!
A solid list to be sure but one glaring omission
They enjoy shopping with blacks
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Jul 6, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree wholeheartedly
but, I’m just trying to give the opposing viewpoint. Upton isn’t completely innocent when it comes to his perception.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
I won't argue that
His 6-7 incidences in the last 3-4 years are completely of his own doing. But if you ask the average fan, he has 6-7 of those incidences a month and that has been perpetuated by melodramatic reporting in the print and multimedia outlets.
by Jason Collette on Jul 6, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Boom, my point has been made
And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.
Your love for BJ has driven you to the absurd
Yes, BJ is better at CF than Zobrist. The rest of your “point” is just silly.
And it’s been far more than ONE bad day in 2010, and you ignore the multiple bad days in prior seasons.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I was talking about 2010 in that particular post
by Jason Collette on Jul 6, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not that simple
The perception of BJ is based on those prior seasons. To cherrypick 2010 and claim it’s just one bad day is mildly disingenuous.
by Not Whole View Gang survivor on Jul 6, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Or to look at it another way
Nothing like having people base