Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Jeremy Lin's Game-Winner Was Incredible, Worth Remembering

Tampa Bay Rays Pitchers and Getting The Man Out

Photo

The majority of the past few weeks have focused on the Rays' offense and getting the man in, or lack there of. Meanwhile, in my own little world, I have been paying attention to getting the man out - especially with two outs. It occurred to me during the Atlanta Braves series that the Rays give up a lot of two out base runners- or at least that was my perception.

To me, the Rays' pitchers - starters mostly - got two quick outs and then struggled to register the third out in the inning. The tipping point that pushed this from a passing thought in my head to research topic came during Monday's game when Matt Garza allowed four runs on five hits and a walk while throwing 49 pitches with two outs in the third inning. C'mon, Matt...get the man out.

That said, I decided to check the numbers, as we commonly do around here, to see if my thoughts were simple overreaction or actually something plaguing the pitching staff.

Star-divide

Here are the league average numbers by outs.

 

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

0 Out

0.266

0.327

0.421

0.748

1 Out

0.260

0.326

0.412

0.738

2 Out

0.247

0.327

0.382

0.709

Here are the Rays average numbers by outs

 

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

0 Out

0.267

0.320

0.430

0.750

1 Out

0.234

0.295

0.392

0.687

2 Out

0.222

0.301

0.372

0.673

*Note: both sets include relief pitchers.

In general, my theory was off. The Rays, as a staff, have done better than average with two outs. On the other hand, most of the struggles I remember have come from starting pitching, and not the fantastic relief group, who's numbers are included in the teams total.

With that in mind, here are the individual breakdowns for the five Rays' starters. Again, this is an imperfect comparison since league average includes relievers, but still gives us a better idea than my twitter rants about GTMO.

Shields

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

0 Out

0.345

0.381

0.509

0.890

1 Out

0.241

0.260

0.426

0.686

2 Out

0.255

0.318

0.461

0.779

James Shields - The 0 out line is terrible, but not surprising. Until Shields decides to throw something other than a first pitch fastball, hitters are going to jump on him. In addition to the 0 out troubles, his OPS against with two outs is above-average in a bad way.

Price

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

0 Out

0.264

0.331

0.431

0.762

1 Out

0.185

0.277

0.323

0.60

2 Out

0.207

0.284

0.240

0.524

David Price - Obviously, whatever two-out problems the team may have do not come from Price. When Price gets the two outs in an inning, he does not mess around. In fact, Price with two outs is the best split among starters in any out situation. If he could only use less pitches in doing so.

Garza

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

0 Out

0.298

0.335

0.464

0.799

1 Out

0.246

0.322

0.403

0.725

2 Out

0.233

0.338

0.425

0.763

Matt Garza - Similar to Shields, Garza's biggest problems come with no outs and two outs. With the amount of quality pitches in his arsenal, this just shouldn't happen. Since his BAA (batting average against) is the lowest with two outs, but his OBP is highest, this suggests that he does too much "dancing" with two outs instead of focusing on GTMO.

Niemann

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

0 Out

0.197

0.254

0.326

0.580

1 Out

0.252

0.311

0.430

0.741

2 Out

0.205

0.279

0.350

0.629

Jeff Niemann - Niemann nearly scores above-average marks across the board, but especially in regards to getting the first man out. Like Price, whatever two-out problems there may be do not involve Niemann.

Davis

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

0 Out

0.230

0.296

0.451

0.747

1 Out

0.298

0.363

0.482

0.845

2 Out

0.284

0.376

0.486

0.862

Wade Davis - Ugh. Davis does a decent job of keeping men off base to start an inning, but is getting smacked around after that - most notably with two outs. An .862 OPS against after retiring two men is not helping ease any frustrations we have with Davis.

Of course this little study does not include game situations like score or runners on base, so again take it as you may. However, when looking at Shields and Garza, you could say my hypothesis was partially correctly - and definitely correct when it comes to Davis. I guess three out of five isn't bad. Well, actually it is bad when the theory is pointing out a potential flaw. Getting the man in is definitely important to the team's success, but getting the man out - especially when you've already gotten two before him - is important as well.

Hopefully, the Rays' trio improve on this and soon. 

Comment 20 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Awesome analysis/idea

Shields’ splits don’t surprise me at all with the way he lays his fastball right in there to start innings.

by Travis Lee on Jul 7, 2010 1:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks.

Again, it doesn’t tell us the complete story. For instance, Longo throws the ball in the stands forcing Niemann to throw an extra 15 pitches with two outs and he gave up a hit. That really isn’t on Niemann since he got 4 outs in the inning, but in general I felt I was seeing a lot of two out baserunners.

www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel

by Tommy Rancel on Jul 7, 2010 1:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

interesting

I find it pretty interesting that league average .BAA is .020 points lower with 2 outs (why? more likely to have someone on base to force out? more likely to have the pitcher getting serious?) yet the .OBP is the same across the board. Lots of 2 out walks going on, apparently.

And then comparing that to the Rays staff, and how they’re overall quite a bit better after that first hitter.

Interesting

by TallMatt on Jul 7, 2010 1:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Pure speculation...

w/ 2 outs, Pitchers feel less pressure from a walk (because they only need one more out to escape) so they nibble at the corners more, leading to more walks and less hittable pitches.

by david_a on Jul 7, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just for S&G I'd love to see the line for Benoit & Soriano

They are freaking disgusting and I can’t believe they each just went 4 straight days. Even Wheels doesn’t do that

And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.

by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 7, 2010 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Benoit

0 Out 0.185 0.241 0.407
1 Out 0.043 0.08 0.123
2 Out 0.094 0.121 0.094

And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.

by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 7, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Soriano

0 Out 0.158 0.233 0.263
1 Out 0.139 0.162 0.194
2 Out 0.214 0.267 0.429

Benoit is freaking ridiculous, Sori ain’t far behind

And if one has a problem using stats to prove a point, then use your eyes.

by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 7, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Both insane numbers

www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel

by Tommy Rancel on Jul 7, 2010 1:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Humina humina humina

Numbers like that make me wonder why he can’t cut it as a starter.

In my day lots of messy tissues over her

by sternfan1 on Jun 18, 2010 6:30 AM PDT

by IntrepidX on Jul 7, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not sure Shield's problem is his FIRST pitch fastball

I thought he was trying to get batters OUT on a fastball, instead of his change-up.

by Elasticman on Jul 7, 2010 1:49 PM EDT reply actions  

too many strikeouts

I know it’s impossible to actually strike out too many people – but I think the early success he had this year with lots of K’s has led he to trying to strike too many people out this year. I don’t really see him as a strike-out pitcher…but I think he’s trying a little too hard this year at doing just that.

He’s at his highest K/9 number of his career, but also walking more people. Both of those lead to more pitches, shorter outings, and less effective numbers. I’d also guess (and this is a guess) that a pitcher who’s best pitch is the change-up is less effective with that pitch the more people see it. Again…more strikes, more balls, more pitches…

by TallMatt on Jul 7, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

a little bit of both

He is very predictable early in the count until recent starts. Since the 3 start blow-up, he’s done a better job of mixing his first pitches but not IBB’ing Ortiz and letting events get to him in the Twins game on Sunday undid his solid efforts. Staying in control of his emotions is the final step for him.

by Jason Collette on Jul 7, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does anyone know how deep the Rays get into this kind of info? I know they are more sabermetrically inclined than others, but to what extent?

Would this kind of info be new news to them, or do you think this kind of stuff is already covered by the team?

by terp12 on Jul 7, 2010 5:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Founded in 2005, DRaysBay is home to, "Progressive statistical analysis and reasoned argument."

Please read our Community Guidelines.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Zobrist vs Pedroia vs Cano
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #31 Runoff

Recent FanPosts

Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #40
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospects #39
Small
Joe Maddon Town Hall meeting on the Ron and Ian show. Any ideas for questions I should ask?
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #37
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #35
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #34
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #33
Scaled_php_small
Rays Community Prospect #32

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

"RHP Brandon Gomes will be behind at the start of spring training after...
2 minor league signings with invitations to spring...
Jeff Bagwell, Fred McGriff, The Hall of Fame, and 400 Home Runs
ESPN Chat with Matt Moore
Danny Clyburn: 1974-2012
Joe Maddon Town Hall Contest
Hickey said as of now all of the starters -- Wade Davis, Jeff Niemann,...
White Sox sign Dan Johnson
Indians acquire Canzler
Justin Ruggiano to Elect Free Agency

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

DRB Fantasy Baseball

Friends of the Site

DRB Suggestion Box

Drb4_medium


Managers

Slowsky__1__small Steve Slowinski

Dad_small Jason Collette

Brad_small BWoodrum

Price_small Erik Hahmann

Analysts

Lob-city_design_small rglass44

Untitled_small EminenceFront

Small Mulva

Rutg_uakjmedjwh9ndzd4lkll_small Imperialism32

100_1952_small MrNegative1

Steak-with-crown_small CBJones

Whelk_small Whelk

Small PGP

Scaled_php_small mr. maniac

Tampa_theatre_small jcmitchell

Me_small John Gregg