Niemann Stumbles Again, Rays Fall to Jays13-5
Through the first five innings of tonight's game, Jeff Niemann did his best to make us forget about his last start (3.1 IP, 8 hits, 10 runs, 2 strikeouts, 3 walks, one home run, if it somehow slipped your mind). Using 66 pitches to navigate the first five frames, Niemann generated seven swinging strikes (10.6%) and, other than allowing a solo home run to John McDonald in the second inning, was nearly impossible to get a good swing on.
Ricky Romero was just as strong for the Jays, facing the minimum through four innings while allowing two walks: Zobrist in the third and Upton in the fourth, both runners erased on double plays. Romero hiccuped in the fifth inning, giving up walks to Longoria and Rodriguez then an RBI single to Zobrist and a two RBI double to Dan Johnson. With the Rays up 3 - 1 through five innings and Niemann on cruise control, the game seemed to be in good shape...
A flip was switched, as they say, and the sixth inning brought in some bizarro baseball.
The Jays started out the inning with some unexpected small ball. Fred Lewis executed a perfect bunt down the third base line that Longoria could only watch as it tiptoed on the chalk.Three pitches later, Lewis stole second and then scored on Dewayne Wise's single to right center. The Jays are last in the Majors in stolen bases with 44, but stole three bases off of the Neimann/Shoppach battery tonight.
The Big Nyquil got a wakeup call as he lost control and allowed the Jays to rack up five runs on two singles, three doubles, and a hit batsmen without recording an out before he was taken out in the sixth. Lance Cormier would enter the game and allow five more runs on home runs by Aaron Hill and Jose Bautista (one run charged to Niemann) leaving the Jays with a ten run sixth and effectively ending the game.
And that's all there really is to say. Niemann threw five innings of one run ball and then imploded in the sixth. Without being a trainer, it seemed that Niemann simply ran out of steam. While not ideal, this can be chalked up to this being his second start off of the DL and hopefully we can expect the Big Nyquil to return to form in his next start. I don't expect this Davis/Niemann Freaky Friday situation to last too much longer.
- The Yankees won, which puts the Rays one game back for the division, but thankfully the Red Sox lost and remain seven games back in the wild card.
- Jose Bautista did his best...well, 2010 Jose Bautista impression tonight (2-3, HR, BB, HBP, 4 RBI). Or maybe it was 2007 Carlos Pena...
- After stroking a two RBI double in the 5th, Dan Johnson tried to stretch it to three and was thrown out easily to end the inning. I know "They" say Joe Maddon doesn't believe in the common baseball adages and just wants his players to be aggressive on the base path, but with Romero on the ropes and Upton swinging a hot bat on deck, I wonder what might have been.
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Yeah what a dumb idea it was to have Niemann throw a rehab start or two
I mean afterall what’s the difference, we’re only playing for the ALE title
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Why don't you let the trainers and coaching staff dictate team decisions
by Lurch's Lobbyists on Sep 1, 2010 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Because i'm not happy using regular season games in a pennant
race as if they were ST games in Port Charlotte
In Niemann’s two starts we’ve been outscored 25-8
Dumb dumb dumb
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I'm sure they brought him back because they knew his command was gone
And wanted him to regain it at the major league level. Thats the only rational explanation.
by GomesSweetGomes on Sep 1, 2010 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't get it. This team rarely rushes into anything
yet it seems they couldn’t wait to get Niemann and Davis back
It worked out fine for Davis, but he’s never had the shoulder issues Niemann’s had. Also, if it was because they wanted to limit Hellickson’s innings, Sonny was doing ok in Niemann’s place
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I agree that there was no need to rush
I just don’t believe they brought Niemann back unless they were 100% on it. Sometimes pithers lay eggs…has appened plenty to Shields and Sonny in the past.
Now, the more interesting question as to Niemann/Hellickson/Davis is which two of the three is the best when healthy. Before these recent blowups I had them in that order. Now I’m not so sure.
by GomesSweetGomes on Sep 1, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions
this was no egg
and I hate agreeing with sternfan1, but this was a rare mistake from management. Niemann was not ready for his first start—as evidenced by how he wasn’t even close in his first start. And in his second start, he did fine until he got gassed. Last night was no egg. He came out throwing strikes, and swinging strikes. But when was the last time he actually had to go deep into a game? Throw a bunch of pitches? That’s still rust from not being out there in a while.
It’s not hard to say that management dropped the ball on this one.
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 1, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Which they had after his first start
No reason why they didn’t try to stall for the bullpen, come out to the mound for a chat, have him throw a couple of pitches over to first, etc.
Maddon mismanaged this one. Hopefully he sees the warning signs if they occur next time.
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 1, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.
First you say the FO severely botched this (which I disagree with, they may have rushed him back but that’s a bit hyperbolic), and now you say it was Maddon. Which was it? Should they have given him rehab starts? Should they have given Davis rehab starts? How od you address the need to keep Hellickson’s innings down and move him to the bullpen? What about Sonny? How would these two extra starts in the minors effect the playoff roster? Etc. Etc. Using hindsight to say they should have made more rehab starts is poor analysis.
WRONG
Management AND Maddon botched this. Don’t you think Maddon also was in on the decision not to give him rehab starts? And secondly, when he clearly didn’t have it—in his first start…and showed the same signs in the 6th inning of his second start, don’t you think he should have at least tried to pull the plug sooner?
The first game, fine, is hindsight. But don’t tell me it can happen a second time and still call it hindsight. He could have had someone go out to the mound, have Niemann throw a few pitches over to first…stall as much as possible and limit the damage.
It really would have been a challenge to keep Sonny in for one more start? Even one rehab start would’ve been better than none.
Don’t get me wrong, I love maddon. But I can still like him and think he’s one hell of a manager and still think that he botched this.
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 1, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Going back through the Gameday, it appears that Niemann really
only got about 3 pitches in the zone during the 6th inning. They were, perhaps predictably so, the last three pitches he threw (two of which went for doubles). The rest seemed to be dancing around uncontrollably (thus the hit batsmen).
from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum
Whether intentional or not
I noticed the same thing… most of those hits were on pitches on the edge of the zone or out of it. They seemed to be his usual velocity too, since he’s not throwing that fast in the first place. I’m not so sure that he “lost command” as that the Blue Jays just hit a bunch of good pitches, all in a row.
by ChiBurbRaysFan on Sep 1, 2010 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Upton's 'hot bat lately'?
Since August 19th 12 games he’s at 146/239/317
Now that’s smokin in my book
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Read his fucking thread, he clearly states
Upton’s ‘hot bat lately’. I’m mere;y pointing out how absurd that statement is
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Don't start cursing at me because I counter your points.
If it weren’t for the fact that you complain everytime ANYONE has a few slow games, then maybe I wouldn’t be so quick to respond to you.
I like BJ--but let's not say for one moment he's having a good year at the plate
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
he's had a pretty damn good month and it's as good a time as any to heat up
I can't belive my grand mothers making me take Out the garbage I'm rich fuck this I'm going home I don't need this shit
He had a great 1st half of AUgust, but his second half
which i breakdown above, was simply awful
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
That's the ebbs and flows of the game.
No one sustains great play (or above average play) for an entire season. They get hot, they get cold.
Look, I don’t like monthly data b/c the cut off point is arbitrary. I tend to look at moving average stats to see how a player is doing over 10-30 game trends.
I haven’t dug deep enough, but I don’t think his fluctuations are that far out of line with normal expectation. If I get time this weekend I’ll pull a few players and run a moving average wOBA and see if I’m wrong.
LET'S BRING THE NOTBOOKS AND RUN THESE NUMBERS AT FIRST FRIDAY!
Haddad is an arab name, all arabs are terrorists. At least some Indians are hilarious tech support geeks with mustaches and fake talk-shows
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 18, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 1, 2010 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions
"Excuse me honey, can you bring me a Jager... also, what is your weighting for IBB when calculating wOBA?"
reply: "Do you want these titties in your face or not?"
Haddad is an arab name, all arabs are terrorists. At least some Indians are hilarious tech support geeks with mustaches and fake talk-shows
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 18, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 1, 2010 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
The BJ year has been beaten to death
No one said he’s had a great year. The consensus seems to be league average’ish at the plate and outstanding at defense.
.....
BJ Upton is beyond stupid—if that’s possible
by sternfan1 on Jun 25, 2010 7:02 PM PDT on 6/25 GDT: Arizona Diamondbacks @ Tampa Bay Rays on DRaysBay
The arfument is my contention they should have INNd Blalock to get to the horrific BJ
by sternfan1 on May 18, 2010 5:29 AM PDT on Rays Beat Indians 4-3 in 11 Innings; Currently 8.5 Games Ahead of Boston on DRaysBay
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
(Less than) two weeks is a perfectly legit sample size!
I can't belive my grand mothers making me take Out the garbage I'm rich fuck this I'm going home I don't need this shit
You too obviously didn't read his thread--give it a try and then tell me i'm off base
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
You're off base
Just got picked off like BJ Upton, in fact.
by ChiBurbRaysFan on Sep 1, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
August 19th is now an official split
Soon it will be since his 3rd at-bat in the 2nd game of the September 5th double header.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
this
when you pick a date like that, it’s an obvious red flag for selective endpoints.
by GomesSweetGomes on Sep 1, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Guess who had the highest wOBA on the team in the month of August?
by Jason Collette on Sep 1, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Most big innings seem to last forever...
But last night the Jays seemed to put up 10 runs in about five minutes.
I'll have a bloody mary and a steak sandwich...and a steak sandwich.
by Passionate Apathy on Sep 1, 2010 8:23 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
It was nice to see DanJo hit the ball on the screws and actually find some green.
Haddad is an arab name, all arabs are terrorists. At least some Indians are hilarious tech support geeks with mustaches and fake talk-shows
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 18, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 1, 2010 8:48 AM EDT reply actions
Yes it was and hopefully it ends any thoughts of Aybar making the post season roster
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
His double play was really hard hit as well. Hill made a nice play
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
sf1 in hog heaven
Shocker! Enjoy you old shit.
by rglass44 on Sep 1, 2010 8:55 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
dont worry we'll win tonight and he'll go back to not posting about how we played
instead he’ll comment on attendance again
Yup
He’s sooooo much fun. Too bad we can’t ban his ass because too many on staff have a crush on his old ass. Or he’ll just email and bitch and moan like a 4 year old.
Someday read what your alleged friends are saying about you
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Yes i'm ecstatic we lost a game where
our SP didn’t even compete
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Seem to be.
Too bad you can’t get a boner and just limpdicked all over yourself. Call your nurse to come clean it up.
He did pretty well for 5 innings.
He was in too long, we didn’t recognize the signs early enough to pull him, and the rest is history.
It’s one game. 3-2 or 11-5, it’s still one game.
Yes, I do know we are in pursuit of the ALE.
I also know that we aren’t going to win every game going out. So every loss stings me too.
If Price loses today 3-2 which with this offense is probable, i'm not happy but i underrstand
This was something preventable
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
No it's two games he's started, and nobody said he shouldn't be starting but just a rehab might have prevented this
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this thread is about the game last night
everybody knows he was awful his first outting back
and i think that joe handled the 6th inning last night horribly
niemann should have been taken out way sooner
people in the gdt were talking about how no one in the bullpen had been warming up, but he never once threw over to first base to stall and give them time
sooner? i think it was over before you could blink--14 pitches?
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
with no throw-overs to first base
sooner as in batters faced, not pitches thrown
I'm willing to bet that every team has a game where their SP doesn't pitch well.
This isn’t a trend or recurring issue.
As you can always expect come from behind victory is when you least expect it.
WoW is the point been missing or what?
Have fun on Niemann’s next start/implosion, where people will then agree with me, just as when i said Brignac wasn’t the answer and now that’s become apparent
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i saw it--what a high lev situation
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Niemann should be fine
he made improvements from first start to second, and hopefully he’ll be fully stretched out for his next start.
I can’t blame Niemann for this. It’s not his fault he wasn’t given the ability to work out his kinks with a minor league start or two.
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 1, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Also, welcome aboard hallax3!
He’ll be helping us out with some game recaps through the end of the season.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
he should brush up with the term 'hot bat lately' and he'll be fine
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Maybe his definition of lately is different than your's.
I’m sure you kind fins some other point to harp on in your incessant attempt to bitch and moan.
you not posting would cut down on my negative responses
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Not sure about that.
My first post of the day was at 8:55. Prior to that you’d already dropped a deuce on the entire thread. I didn’t even comment on the post game recap yesterday thanks to your insistance on finding every negative. Thanks, but no thanks.
yesterday's post game reflected on the attendance and how awful it was, so i went OT in responding?
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Mm..yes. Because a .377 wOBA in August is cold.
Though granted, he’s cooled down over the last two weeks.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 1, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
So i'll ask you, if someone said to you
hasn’t the weather been great lately?, would you refer to the last two weeks or the two weeks preceding them?
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
....
late·ly adv \ˈlāt-lē\
Definition of LATELY
: of late : recently
Examples of LATELY
He has been feeling better lately.
Lately, she has been worrying about her son.
I don’t see a timeline or explicit period in this definition. As such, it’s open to interpretation. As such, you take your interpratation as fact and wine and cry.
I do think he's got a decent point, but I just like to take a longer view.
When you’re using a subjective term, everyone’s going to define it differently.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 1, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
He made a great semantic argument that means absolutely nothing.
Then he parades it around like he’s Columbus discovering the New World. It’s subjective. The month of August Beej has been one of our best hitters. Arbitrary terms like lately are what they are. Arbitrary. If we’re all just going to devolve every discussion in to bullshit semantic arguments let me know, and I’ll go ahead and ban myself.
I somehow missed that they'd already debated this above.
Should have never fanned the flames again…. I’m surprised this is the thing he’s chosen to focus on today….seems like lots of other material out there after last night.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 1, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
His numbers always get a boost when we're playing more lefties.
If this works, I want the copywrite and patent on the statistic.
Follow me: @SandyKazmir, read me @ Dockoftherays.com, feel me whenever you want.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 1, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I think SF1 has you beat on this one.
"It doesnt really matter what I think anymore." - Kevin Kennedy
Que?
I thought it was well-written, especially considering game recaps can be tougher since they’re on a deadline.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 1, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I totally missed that this was subthreaded to sf1. Oy, I need coffee.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 1, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Sternfan you are off base regarding Upton
This is a time where you have to put your newfound excel spreadsheet away and use your old school scouting sense that you’ve ditched for some macros.
BJ has been unlucky at the dish over the past couple weeks. He has been robbed countless times. First AB last night? Bourjas stealing a homer from him? Etc.
When looking at such small sample sizes, which “lately” implies, a few extraordinary defensive plays can swing the underlying numbers dramatically.
In this case just use some good old fashioned scouting and you can easily see that BJ is swinging the bat far better than he has been all season. It isn’t even close. He is driving the ball to all fields and isn’t as pull crazy as he has been.
Go Gators!!
As usual i make one statement
stating that ‘lately’ and ‘hot bat’ didn’t apply, and i still stick to that, if y’all want to debate it, or break it down into BABIP and other things be my guest
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
It is pointless to get into such arguments based on semantics. I think it is pretty clear, and we should all agree, that BJ is hitting the ball much better than what he was a couple months ago.
He isn’t Barry Bonds, Eric Davis, or even JUp yet…but he isn’t the garbage hitter (well he was a good walker!) that he was a couple months ago.
Go Gators!!
BJ was the better Upton in August .832 to .664 OPS
Note: This is in no way arguing with what you said
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
I haven't seen pitchers as likely to sneak a 93 MPH fastball by him as much lately
For awhile all you had to do was throw a decent fastball over the plate and he couldn’t catch up. I’ve seen less of that lately.
If this works, I want the copywrite and patent on the statistic.
Follow me: @SandyKazmir, read me @ Dockoftherays.com, feel me whenever you want.
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 1, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
odd that I actually agree with matthan..
I can't belive my grand mothers making me take Out the garbage I'm rich fuck this I'm going home I don't need this shit
I'm not gonna lie, this is a great thread
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "Free the slaves at traffic stops from false arrest and jury fixing"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 1, 2010 10:02 AM EDT reply actions
I just hope to God Niemann can sneak through the rest of the year without a major reputation hit
He needs to be the one we trade. We can afford Garza for another year or two given the loss of CC/Pena. At that point we will have more arms ready for prime time (Matt Moore please!).
We’ve always known Niemann was a walking time bomb. I think hes done enough for us to upwardly revise our projections a bit, but if someone is going to give us anywhere near the return of a #3 cost controlled starter…then he needs to go.
Go Gators!!
Now you're cookin with gas
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Actually to be honest I'm not a "big" fan of Davis or Niemann. And I think Garza is a reasonable trade candidate
To me, they all reap the rewards of our great defense. I’m not a huge fan of pitchers that are crappy to average in terms of swinging strikes. Swinging strikes is the cherry in the chocolate shake. Davis has had a major decline, which is extremely worrisome. Niemann has always been okay in that regards.
Go Gators!!
This is a good comment
The defense makes any pitcher appear much better
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Davis is 91st of 99 in SwStr in terms of qualified pitchers. Tied with Mitch freaking Talbot.
Speaking of SwStr, Trevor Cahill is all smoke and mirrors. If you got him in fantasy trade him away before the explosion becomes an atomic bomb. He isn’t a bad pitcher, but nowhere near what people are currently thinking.
Go Gators!!
Cahill
He’s a sinker-baller. His swst% isn’t as important because his GB% will always be high. I like him a lot more IRL than in fantasy for that reason.
I agree, but I still think it is real flukey
He throws it out of the zone a whole lot (78 of 99)
Hitters do not swing at his out of zone pitches (91 of 99)
He doesn’t miss bats (90 of 99)
His BABIP is simply unsustainable. Top 7 in GB% (Name, GB%, BABIP)
Hudson, 64.2%, .244
Masterson, 60.6%, .336
Lowe, 57.2%, .308
Westbrook, 55.8%, .298
Garcia, 55.2%, .296
Cahill, 55.2%, .224
Romero, 54.8%, .294
Go Gators!!
He's also what 22?
I don’t think he’ll ever win a CY, but I think he’s a very useful pitcher. Would I be suprised if he Porcellos next year? Not really, but I also wouldn’t be suprised with a few Huddyesque years. Like I said, more value IRL than fantasy.
Agreed on Niemann, but not as much on Davis.
His stuff screams for SwSt, and a lot of pitchers go through growing pains their first full year in the bigs. Look at Price/Niemann’s SwSt% this year as compared to last year. They both saw significant jumps, though Davis this year isn’t as high as Niemann last year was. I guess that bolsters your point, but Davis in my mind comes without huge injury redflags.
This is my feeling.
I trust him more than Niemann because of injury history, but I still don’t think he’ll ever be much more than a 3/4 type. Granted with our defense, and his cost I have no isses with that.
Niemann hasn't had a checkered injury history since he's been up in the majors.
He had this small issue here…but it was nothing more than just a little time off. Niemann is solid, has shown he can pitch in the AL East, and is cheap. No reason to trade him. Shields on the other hand…
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 1, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Huh?
Shields has been better than Niemann in the past, has never made a DL stint, and isn’t very expensive. Niemann was a walking injury until a couple years ago, and I don’t have much faith that he’ll ever be a guy you can pencil in to make 30 starts a year like Yields.
Edwin Jackson style. Not saying they are the same
And Niemann still has a year before arb, but as you said if someone is willing to pay for him as a #3, do it.
www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Sep 1, 2010 10:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed.
This is NOT what I wanted to see from him. I’ve been worried about his arm issues, and him, as a result, going foreward.
No
KLAW was wrong by a mile, and Niemann is now having arm issues. But he was dead wrong about what he said and his pithy comment. I never said I didn’t worry about his arm though.
Really?
What the hell people? Niemann has one stint on the DL and everyone’s freaking out? He’s been just fine last year and this year. And you can’t blame these starts on him. He needed a couple rehab starts the way anyone else gets. That’s a management issue. Not his.
He has been as consistent of a pitcher as anyone we have. He has shown he can pitch in the AL East.
No reason to get rid of him.
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 1, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
People calling for rehab starts:
There are a few issues that make it more tricky due to the playoff roster rules. As we saw, both Davis and Niemann’s starts ended up being right against the 9/1 playoff roster deadline. There was also the issue of Hellickson’s move to the bullpen innings limit. I’m sure the FO was balancing these concerns with the potential difference between Davis/Niemann and Hellickson/Sonny. Another issue was the addiotional bullets the bullpen had to weather because of missing Sonny to be the longman (as well as his inability to pitch deep in to games), The roster does not exist in a vacuum, so every change has corresponding variables that must be addressed. Remember to consider more than just the fact that 2/4 starts since these two have returned have been quite poor.
i agree with your response
You do have to look beyond just the two starts. But it’s frustrating to hear people saying, this is what I expected out of Niemann, or oh no, Niemann is done, etc.
People at this site have been bashing Niemann since he came up to the Rays. And it sure appears that as soon as he has one bad start, or gives up a couple HRs in a game, they can’t wait to say something. But when Shields does something like that, people point to his K/9 or anything else they can defend him with.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m fine with Shields. But let’s be realistic, unless someone blows the Rays away with an offer for Niemann, Shields is the one who is going to start getting expensive. Niemann has another year before he hits arbitration. Shields salary jumps to only 4.25 next year, and then its 7mil, 9mil, and 12 mil. It may be what he is worth, but it isn’t what the Rays can afford to pay. Not when there is cheaper talent available. Niemann, himself, won’t probably approach 7 mil until year 3 of arbitration, and by that point, it’ll be time to trade him as well.
This is the nature of the beast. One of Shields or Garza needs to be moved in the offseason. And if the Rays can lock down Garza to a contract that buys out the rest of his arbitration and maybe a year or two of his FA, then Shields should be the most likely candidate to move—Not Niemann.
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 1, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions

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