On the Rays' Rotation: Should We Worry?
Last night, while Jeff Niemann was doing his interpretive reenactment of the Hindenburg, many of us in Raysland were starting to feel tiny bit of panic. No, not panic concerning the Red Sox - panic about our pitching staff and the playoffs. As the saying goes, pitching wins championships; although it's a cliche, it's generally true - teams with good pitching staffs tend to do well in the playoffs. The cooler weather of October suppresses offense, stinging the hands and keeping balls from traveling quite so far.
Up until two weeks ago, starting pitching was the least of the Rays' concerns. David Price and Matt Garza were as dominant as ever; James Shields had put a couple good starts together; Jeremy Hellickson had dominated while filling in; and Wade Davis and Jeff Niemann were coming back from the disabled list. Since then, Niemann has been awful (23 runs in 10 innings pitched) and Shields had a bad start, and now people are starting to freak. Where once there was stability, now there's uncertainty. The depth has disappeared, the strength vanished. From all reports, the Rays' rotation is crumbling to shreds.
When things seem bleakest, the most prudent course is to take a step back and regain some perspective. Should we be worried about the Rays' rotation? No, but we might want to adjust our expectations.
If you want to worry about the Rays' rotation, don't fixate on Jeff Niemann. All pitchers go through rough spells, just like all hitters go through slumps, and it just happens that this patch has been particularly bad. His recent problems seem to be stemming from a lack of command and a lack of stamina, both of which are classic problems for pitchers returning from the disabled list. Unless he's still injured - and with Hellickson around, there's no way the Rays let Niemann pitch if his arm is still bothering him - there's no reason to be concered; these issues are ones that smooth out with time. Maybe the Rays rushed Niemann back from the disabled list, but by the time the playoffs open, Niemann should be back in classic Nyquil form.
If you insist upon worrying about the rotation, though, there is this: the Rays don't have as good a rotation as most people assume. We get billed as one of the "best young rotations in the majors" and that's easy to believe when you look at our staff's ERA and win totals. David Price has16 wins and a 2.92 ERA. Matt Garza is rocking the 3.46 ERA and has 14 wins. Jeff Niemann has a 3.97 ERA (before last night) and heck, even Wade Davis has 11 wins and a 4.39 ERA. These guys look well above-average.
When you dig beyond ERA and wins, you find that it's not so rosy: with the exception of David Price, the rest of the Rays' rotation has pitched around league-average. Don't believe me?
*Green represents better than league-average, blue is approximately league-average, red is worse than league-average.
**For questions regarding the above statistics, please read this.
Price is an ace no matter what statistic you look at, but things get confusing once you begin looking at the other pitchers. Garza looks more like a league-average starter when you look at all of his statistics compiled together, and Niemann looks about the same, maybe a little worse. Shields has a homerun problem that inflates his FIP and makes his xFIP look shiny, but his tERA isn't convinced either; he still looks like a league-average pitcher this season. And then Wade Davis...well, he's our fifth starter. And he's young. (More on Davis later today.)
"Average" is not synonymous with "bad", though. When you compare the Rays' rotation with other playoff teams, they hold up well. According to FanGraphs, the Rays' rotation is the 19th best in baseball this season, contributing 98.1 runs of value. The Rangers are right behind the Rays at 20th (96.1 runs), the Yankees are ranked 24th (77.2 runs), and the Twins are the best, placing fifth (137.7 runs).
The point of this post is not to make people worried or anxious about our rotation: having four starters that are all league-average or better is an impressive feat and it will serve the Rays well come the post-season. The Rays are getting more value from their rotation than the Yankees are this season, while spending $55M less. Just keep your expectations in check over the remainder of the season: this is not a team with three aces, but one ace (David Price) and three more average to above-average pitchers.
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Do we expect the Rays to be using three or four of these guys come October?
Also, any chance that they attempt to use Hellboy in any playoff rotation?
CLee or Oswalt would look pretty good right about now.
My thinking is to blame Zobrist and the offense, if you can’t beat a team after allowing 12 runs then you don’t deserve to win.
The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.
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by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 10:13 AM EDT reply actions
lol
where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you
by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 7, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
u dum
Man I just saw a tall super model giraffe lookin ass bitch and I thought I could fuck her an make 1 of them super ball dunkin ass niggas lol
CLee? With the back problems?
i'll tweet that prick right now
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by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
He wouldn't have gotten them pitching in the confines of the dome, obvi
The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.
Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm getting concerned
It would be ok if maybe one of them was slumping, but as a rotation its not looking great right about now. Hoping it gets better at this point.
While it would be nice to have 5 aces...
it’s not reality for any team (even the Yankees). The best the Rays can hope for is guys that give you an honest chance to win every time they go out on the mound. I believe the Rays have that in all five of their starters. So, I’m going to resist the urge to tear down my Niemann growth chart and hope he’s just slumping and gets it together for the playoffs.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
No, Steve, Matt Garza is an ace and we should absolutely not trade him in the offseason. Keep cherrypicking stats like FIP, xFIP, tERA.
What about NHP162 (No Hitters Per 162 games)? I believe Garza LEADS THE STAFF. He has 1000% more of those than “Big Flame” Gaymes.
My solution is to put Sean Rodriguez on the bump. Get this kid in the game at all possible times.
i'll tweet that prick right now
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by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Proposed batting order
1. S Rodriguez
2. S Rodriguez
3. S Rodriguez
4. S Rodriguez
5. S Rodriguez
6. S Rodriguez
7. S Rodriguez
8. S Rodriguez
9. S Rodriguez
Bench: S Rodriguez, S Rodriguez, S Rodriguez, S Rodriguez.
Closer: S Rodriguez, SU M Rivera
i'll tweet that prick right now
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by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Bartlett should be considered for a spot
Do you realize Betty White is a milf for me? Ouch
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by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
DH
i'll tweet that prick right now
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by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
That Hape guy has a .339 wOBA since joining the Rays, suck on that you fat babyclown
The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.
Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Like I said, you jackanape, I am not rooting for him to fail. I don't boo Rays players.
i'll tweet that prick right now
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by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
You hate Nathan T. Hape, admit it.
The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.
Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I hate Patrick Hape.
i'll tweet that prick right now
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Percy
where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you
by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 7, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Not even him. Not even Navi for fucks sake.
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by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
DYK Brad Hawpe's middle name is Bonte?
WHY IN THE HELL DO YOU HATE THIS GUY?
The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.
Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
fatbylown?
is that like dumgbay
Do you realize Betty White is a milf for me? Ouch
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by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This thread is about SF1, as should all threads be. Keep on keepin on PoW
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "Free the slaves at traffic stops from false arrest and jury fixing"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 7, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
This thread is about Patrick Hape.
i'll tweet that prick right now
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by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
He did have one good year, so I can see why you'd say that
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "Free the slaves at traffic stops from false arrest and jury fixing"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 7, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
sf1 so motherfuckin turned up right now
some one please turn sternfan1 down
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by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd love to see that chart for the other AL playoff teams.
I know the Yankees would have two pitchers with all red and the Rangers would have Tommy Hunter shown to be the fraud he is. Seriously, dude is bad.
So as usual you deflect the Rays problems by talking about other team's problems
That’s the move of a rookie poster
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IF and i do mean IF we limp into the playoffs, and start in MIN i go with Price--Garza--Yields
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Does anyone seriouesly expect us to win a playoff game especially if we continue to start Zobrist?
Man I just saw a tall super model giraffe lookin ass bitch and I thought I could fuck her an make 1 of them super ball dunkin ass niggas lol
Well as of today how many times have they won a playoff game with him starting?
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If I had to guess, as many as they have with Fred McGriff?
Man I just saw a tall super model giraffe lookin ass bitch and I thought I could fuck her an make 1 of them super ball dunkin ass niggas lol
Brad Hape and his .339 wOBA suxors
The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.
Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
our run differential has taken a beating in recent weeks
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where do i say we won't?
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Is anyone really shocked by the performances of Niemann?
Afterall many of the ‘experts’ were waiting for this very thing all last season
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After looking pretty good before the DL...
…I can honestly say I’m shocked about Niemann.
by DaPriceIsRight on Sep 7, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
with the luxury of AL best record, didn't they have the option of a 7 or 8 day ALDS?
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They've changed the playoff format so it's not as feasible to do that this year.
Took out a couple days off. So it’s less likely that the Yanks (or the Rays, for that matter) go with a 3 man rotation beyond the first round.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 7, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
The Yanks top 3 (and 4)
Player- ERA/FIP/xFIP/tERA
Sabathia- 3.02/3.62/3.85/3.37
Hughes- 4.29/4.24/4.36/4.04
Burnett- 5.15/4.67/4.64/4.62
Vazquez- 5.23/5.54/4.84/5.20
Pettite (if he returns)- 2.88/3.96/4.05/4.09
the didfference is the Yanks can win a game 8-7
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I love that he keeps ducking this.
where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you
by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 7, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
ask him to give me Vegas odds and i'll consider it
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
He'll do it. He'll probably give you better odds than Vegas as well.
where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you
by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 7, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
coolstanding has us at 95% so you give me 20:1
i’ll put up $50 to win $1000
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
i did--$50--now it's your turn big boy
you’ll probably pull a Suttree and not pay up
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so the deal is done
Rays in playoffs i pay you $50
Rays out, you pay me $1000
agreed?
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you kidding?
that’s like a free $50
Man I just saw a tall super model giraffe lookin ass bitch and I thought I could fuck her an make 1 of them super ball dunkin ass niggas lol
who wants to predict this road trip?
I say 2-7
Go ahead, you’re up
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Twins:
Liriano- 3.27/2.31/3.01/2.65!
Pavano- 3.52/3.71/3.96/4.39
Baker- 4.60/4.03/4.05/4.24
Slowey- 4.46/4.11/4.57
So let me get this straight
in your opinion Ben Zobrist should be getting more PT than Sean Rodriguez—and why? Not defense—both have very good UZR/150 at both 2B and RF
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The first scenario is obvious
Bartlett over Brignac is simply the lesser of two evils and one has WS experience which can’t hurt
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Brignacs AB last night was awful
Popping up first pitch which was out-of-the-zone to the catcher with the bases loaded and one out following successive bases loaded walks by the failing Sox pen.
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So now the question is, what was Joe thinking?
I’m sure he’s aware of how Brignac chases, so why use him of all people to PH at such a crucial time?
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Do you realize who he pinch hit for?
I was worried for your blood pressure…
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Rangers:
Lee- 3.37/2.62/3.23/2.70
Wilson- 3.10/3.59/4.28/3.75
Lewis- 3.96/3.69/3.98/3.68
From there I have no idea where they go:
Feldman- 5.46/4.70/4.84/5.09
Hunter- 3.99/5.46/4.95/5.55
Holland- 5.28/5.00/4.19/4.10
God Hunter is a farce.
rays were 32 – 12 they have never had a must win game eve,r the yankees red sox ( hate them as i do,) are in must win games starting in may. no one picked the rays in 08. Now if they lose 3 out of the next 5 and yankees come to st pete winning 5 of 6 All fans NEED TO GO TO GAME CANNOT HAVE 25,000 YANKEES FANS AT THE GAME will see how we play in must win game If the red sox are in the wildcard race last week of sept and yankees have div won THE YANKEES WILL TANK THE LAST 6 GAMES WITH SOX so play hard rays this will be fun
This should just about stamp your ticket to outtahereland.
The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.
Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Good luck.
The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.
Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
All together now (with avg of ERA/FIP/xFIP/tERA):
Lee 2.98
Wilson 3.68
Lewis 3.83
Hunter 4.99
Liriano 2.81
Pavano 3.90
Baker 4.23
Slowey 4.35
Sabathia 3.47
Hughes 4.23
Burnett 4.77
Vazquez 5.20
Price 3.43
Garza 4.11
Niemann 4.32
Shields 4.34
Rank by rotations spot:
1- Twins, Rangers, Rays, Yanks
2- Rangers, Twins, Rays, Yanks
3- Rangers, Twins, Rays, Yanks
4- Rays, Twins, Rangers, Yanks
Season's over, moose out front shoulda told ya
The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.
Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Average amount behind the leader:
Rays 0.39
Rangers 0.20
Yanks 0.75
Twins 0.15
This is a RA measure for how the staffs stack up compared to the best in each spot.
Quit ducking me.
i'll tweet that prick right now
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by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
cy young
if cc win tonite its his great match up mon cc david price
Much of our pitching staff's overperformance is due to our stellar defense
It saves roughly .27 runs of ERA for all our guys





























