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On the Rays' Rotation: Should We Worry?

Last night, while Jeff Niemann was doing his interpretive reenactment of the Hindenburg, many of us in Raysland were starting to feel tiny bit of panic. No, not panic concerning the Red Sox - panic about our pitching staff and the playoffs. As the saying goes, pitching wins championships; although it's a cliche, it's generally true - teams with good pitching staffs tend to do well in the playoffs. The cooler weather of October suppresses offense, stinging the hands and keeping balls from traveling quite so far.

Up until two weeks ago, starting pitching was the least of the Rays' concerns. David Price and Matt Garza were as dominant as ever; James Shields had put a couple good starts together; Jeremy Hellickson had dominated while filling in; and Wade Davis and Jeff Niemann were coming back from the disabled list. Since then, Niemann has been awful (23 runs in 10 innings pitched) and Shields had a bad start, and now people are starting to freak. Where once there was stability, now there's uncertainty. The depth has disappeared, the strength vanished. From all reports, the Rays' rotation is crumbling to shreds.

When things seem bleakest, the most prudent course is to take a step back and regain some perspective. Should we be worried about the Rays' rotation? No, but we might want to adjust our expectations.

Star-divide

If you want to worry about the Rays' rotation, don't fixate on Jeff Niemann. All pitchers go through rough spells, just like all hitters go through slumps, and it just happens that this patch has been particularly bad. His recent problems seem to be stemming from a lack of command and a lack of stamina, both of which are classic problems for pitchers returning from the disabled list. Unless he's still injured - and with Hellickson around, there's no way the Rays let Niemann pitch if his arm is still bothering him - there's no reason to be concered; these issues are ones that smooth out with time. Maybe the Rays rushed Niemann back from the disabled list, but by the time the playoffs open, Niemann should be back in classic Nyquil form.

If you insist upon worrying about the rotation, though, there is this: the Rays don't have as good a rotation as most people assume. We get billed as one of the "best young rotations in the majors" and that's easy to believe when you look at our staff's ERA and win totals. David Price has16 wins and a 2.92 ERA. Matt Garza is rocking the 3.46 ERA and has 14 wins. Jeff Niemann has a 3.97 ERA (before last night) and heck, even Wade Davis has 11 wins and a 4.39 ERA. These guys look well above-average.

When you dig beyond ERA and wins, you find that it's not so rosy: with the exception of David Price, the rest of the Rays' rotation has pitched around league-average. Don't believe me?

Starters_medium

*Green represents better than league-average, blue is approximately league-average, red is worse than league-average.

**For questions regarding the above statistics, please read this.

Price is an ace no matter what statistic you look at, but things get confusing once you begin looking at the other pitchers. Garza looks more like a league-average starter when you look at all of his statistics compiled together, and Niemann looks about the same, maybe a little worse.  Shields has a homerun problem that inflates his FIP and makes his xFIP look shiny, but his tERA isn't convinced either; he still looks like a league-average pitcher this season. And then Wade Davis...well, he's our fifth starter. And he's young. (More on Davis later today.)

"Average" is not synonymous with "bad", though. When you compare the Rays' rotation with other playoff teams, they hold up well. According to FanGraphs, the Rays' rotation is the 19th best in baseball this season, contributing 98.1 runs of value. The Rangers are right behind the Rays at 20th (96.1 runs), the Yankees are ranked 24th (77.2 runs), and the Twins are the best, placing fifth (137.7 runs).

The point of this post is not to make people worried or anxious about our rotation: having four starters that are all league-average or better is an impressive feat and it will serve the Rays well come the post-season. The Rays are getting more value from their rotation than the Yankees are this season, while spending $55M less. Just keep your expectations in check over the remainder of the season: this is not a team with three aces, but one ace (David Price) and three more average to above-average pitchers.

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Do we expect the Rays to be using three or four of these guys come October?

Also, any chance that they attempt to use Hellboy in any playoff rotation?

by usfraysfan on Sep 7, 2010 10:13 AM EDT reply actions  

CLee or Oswalt would look pretty good right about now.

My thinking is to blame Zobrist and the offense, if you can’t beat a team after allowing 12 runs then you don’t deserve to win.

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 10:13 AM EDT reply actions  

lol

where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you

by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 7, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

u dum

Man I just saw a tall super model giraffe lookin ass bitch and I thought I could fuck her an make 1 of them super ball dunkin ass niggas lol

by pudieron89 on Sep 7, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

CLee? With the back problems?

i'll tweet that prick right now
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions

by PlayOnWords on Sep 7, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

He wouldn't have gotten them pitching in the confines of the dome, obvi

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm getting concerned

 It would be ok if maybe one of them was slumping, but as a rotation its not looking great right about now. Hoping it gets better at this point.

by blackraven on Sep 7, 2010 10:16 AM EDT reply actions  

While it would be nice to have 5 aces...

it’s not reality for any team (even the Yankees). The best the Rays can hope for is guys that give you an honest chance to win every time they go out on the mound. I believe the Rays have that in all five of their starters. So, I’m going to resist the urge to tear down my Niemann growth chart and hope he’s just slumping and gets it together for the playoffs.

RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter

by Rays_Rev on Sep 7, 2010 10:16 AM EDT reply actions  

No, Steve, Matt Garza is an ace and we should absolutely not trade him in the offseason. Keep cherrypicking stats like FIP, xFIP, tERA.

What about NHP162 (No Hitters Per 162 games)? I believe Garza LEADS THE STAFF. He has 1000% more of those than “Big Flame” Gaymes.

My solution is to put Sean Rodriguez on the bump. Get this kid in the game at all possible times.

i'll tweet that prick right now
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions

by PlayOnWords on Sep 7, 2010 10:17 AM EDT reply actions  

Proposed batting order

1. S Rodriguez
2. S Rodriguez
3. S Rodriguez
4. S Rodriguez
5. S Rodriguez
6. S Rodriguez
7. S Rodriguez
8. S Rodriguez
9. S Rodriguez

Bench: S Rodriguez, S Rodriguez, S Rodriguez, S Rodriguez.

by firemangreg on Sep 7, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Closer: S Rodriguez, SU M Rivera

i'll tweet that prick right now
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions

by PlayOnWords on Sep 7, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bartlett should be considered for a spot

Do you realize Betty White is a milf for me? Ouch

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

by wtbudlight on Sep 7, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

DH

i'll tweet that prick right now
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions

by PlayOnWords on Sep 7, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

That Hape guy has a .339 wOBA since joining the Rays, suck on that you fat babyclown

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Like I said, you jackanape, I am not rooting for him to fail. I don't boo Rays players.

i'll tweet that prick right now
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions

by PlayOnWords on Sep 7, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

You hate Nathan T. Hape, admit it.

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I hate Patrick Hape.

i'll tweet that prick right now
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions

by PlayOnWords on Sep 7, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Percy

where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you

by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 7, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not even him. Not even Navi for fucks sake.

i'll tweet that prick right now
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions

by PlayOnWords on Sep 7, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

DYK Brad Hawpe's middle name is Bonte?

WHY IN THE HELL DO YOU HATE THIS GUY?

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

fatbylown?

is that like dumgbay

Do you realize Betty White is a milf for me? Ouch

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

by wtbudlight on Sep 7, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

This thread is about SF1, as should all threads be. Keep on keepin on PoW

The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "Free the slaves at traffic stops from false arrest and jury fixing"

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 7, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

This thread is about Patrick Hape.

i'll tweet that prick right now
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions

by PlayOnWords on Sep 7, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

He did have one good year, so I can see why you'd say that

The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "Free the slaves at traffic stops from false arrest and jury fixing"

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 7, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

sf1 so motherfuckin turned up right now

some one please turn sternfan1 down

i'll tweet that prick right now
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions

by PlayOnWords on Sep 7, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd love to see that chart for the other AL playoff teams.

I know the Yankees would have two pitchers with all red and the Rangers would have Tommy Hunter shown to be the fraud he is. Seriously, dude is bad.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 7, 2010 11:19 AM EDT reply actions  

Does anyone seriouesly expect us to win a playoff game especially if we continue to start Zobrist?

Man I just saw a tall super model giraffe lookin ass bitch and I thought I could fuck her an make 1 of them super ball dunkin ass niggas lol

by pudieron89 on Sep 7, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

If I had to guess, as many as they have with Fred McGriff?

Man I just saw a tall super model giraffe lookin ass bitch and I thought I could fuck her an make 1 of them super ball dunkin ass niggas lol

by pudieron89 on Sep 7, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

I bet you a $1,000 we make the playoffs.

by rglass44 on Sep 7, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brad Hape and his .339 wOBA suxors

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is anyone really shocked by the performances of Niemann?

Afterall many of the ‘experts’ were waiting for this very thing all last season

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 7, 2010 12:28 PM EDT reply actions  

After looking pretty good before the DL...

…I can honestly say I’m shocked about Niemann.

by DaPriceIsRight on Sep 7, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Yanks top 3 (and 4)

Player- ERA/FIP/xFIP/tERA

Sabathia- 3.02/3.62/3.85/3.37
Hughes- 4.29/4.24/4.36/4.04
Burnett- 5.15/4.67/4.64/4.62
Vazquez- 5.23/5.54/4.84/5.20

Pettite (if he returns)- 2.88/3.96/4.05/4.09

by rglass44 on Sep 7, 2010 12:40 PM EDT reply actions  

I love that he keeps ducking this.

where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you

by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 7, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

He'll do it. He'll probably give you better odds than Vegas as well.

where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you

by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Sep 7, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

coolstanding has us at 95% so you give me 20:1

i’ll put up $50 to win $1000

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 7, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. It's a "big IF."

Put your money where your mouth is.

by rglass44 on Sep 7, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

i did--$50--now it's your turn big boy

you’ll probably pull a Suttree and not pay up

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 7, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK.

Will someone define the odds of “a big IF?” I doubt it’s 5%.

by rglass44 on Sep 7, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

so the deal is done

Rays in playoffs i pay you $50

Rays out, you pay me $1000

agreed?

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 7, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

No no no.

I’m not giving you 20-1 odds when it’s such a “big IF.”

by rglass44 on Sep 7, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

you kidding?

that’s like a free $50

Man I just saw a tall super model giraffe lookin ass bitch and I thought I could fuck her an make 1 of them super ball dunkin ass niggas lol

by pudieron89 on Sep 7, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

who wants to predict this road trip?

I say 2-7

Go ahead, you’re up

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 7, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

I’ll take 3-6 then. Bet I’m closer.

by rglass44 on Sep 7, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Twins:

Liriano- 3.27/2.31/3.01/2.65!
Pavano- 3.52/3.71/3.96/4.39
Baker- 4.60/4.03/4.05/4.24
Slowey- 4.46/4.11/4.57

by rglass44 on Sep 7, 2010 12:53 PM EDT reply actions  

So let me get this straight

in your opinion Ben Zobrist should be getting more PT than Sean Rodriguez—and why? Not defense—both have very good UZR/150 at both 2B and RF

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 7, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

The first scenario is obvious

Bartlett over Brignac is simply the lesser of two evils and one has WS experience which can’t hurt

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 7, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brignacs AB last night was awful

Popping up first pitch which was out-of-the-zone to the catcher with the bases loaded and one out following successive bases loaded walks by the failing Sox pen.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 7, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

So now the question is, what was Joe thinking?

I’m sure he’s aware of how Brignac chases, so why use him of all people to PH at such a crucial time?

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 7, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you realize who he pinch hit for?

I was worried for your blood pressure…

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 7, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rangers:

Lee- 3.37/2.62/3.23/2.70
Wilson- 3.10/3.59/4.28/3.75
Lewis- 3.96/3.69/3.98/3.68

From there I have no idea where they go:
Feldman- 5.46/4.70/4.84/5.09
Hunter- 3.99/5.46/4.95/5.55
Holland- 5.28/5.00/4.19/4.10

God Hunter is a farce.

by rglass44 on Sep 7, 2010 1:02 PM EDT reply actions  

rays were 32 – 12 they have never had a must win game eve,r the yankees red sox ( hate them as i do,) are in must win games starting in may. no one picked the rays in 08. Now if they lose 3 out of the next 5 and yankees come to st pete winning 5 of 6 All fans NEED TO GO TO GAME CANNOT HAVE 25,000 YANKEES FANS AT THE GAME will see how we play in must win game If the red sox are in the wildcard race last week of sept and yankees have div won THE YANKEES WILL TANK THE LAST 6 GAMES WITH SOX so play hard rays this will be fun

by 5689 on Sep 7, 2010 1:25 PM EDT reply actions  

This should just about stamp your ticket to outtahereland.

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is terrible

At least use non-shortbus sentence structure. Literally unreadable.

by Hatfield on Sep 7, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good luck.

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

All together now (with avg of ERA/FIP/xFIP/tERA):

Lee 2.98
Wilson 3.68
Lewis 3.83
Hunter 4.99

Liriano 2.81
Pavano 3.90
Baker 4.23
Slowey 4.35

Sabathia 3.47
Hughes 4.23
Burnett 4.77
Vazquez 5.20

Price 3.43
Garza 4.11
Niemann 4.32
Shields 4.34

by rglass44 on Sep 7, 2010 2:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Rank by rotations spot:

1- Twins, Rangers, Rays, Yanks
2- Rangers, Twins, Rays, Yanks
3- Rangers, Twins, Rays, Yanks
4- Rays, Twins, Rangers, Yanks

by rglass44 on Sep 7, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Season's over, moose out front shoulda told ya

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 7, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Average amount behind the leader:

Rays 0.39
Rangers 0.20
Yanks 0.75
Twins 0.15

This is a RA measure for how the staffs stack up compared to the best in each spot.

by rglass44 on Sep 7, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

the rangers are done

by 5689 on Sep 7, 2010 2:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Quit ducking me.

i'll tweet that prick right now
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions

by PlayOnWords on Sep 7, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

R.I.P. Scott Kazmir 2005-2008

by raysfan81 on Sep 7, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

cy young

if cc win tonite its his great match up mon cc david price

by 5689 on Sep 7, 2010 3:25 PM EDT reply actions  

yankees philly ws again?

by 5689 on Sep 7, 2010 3:30 PM EDT reply actions  

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