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James Shields & The Taboo Topic of Hittability


There have been some excellent pieces on James Shields in the Rays blogosphere this season and this post by ghost of draysbay past Tommy Rancel inspired me to tinker with baseball-reference.com's season finder tool. If you read this blog, you already are well aware James Shields is posting an excellent strikeout-to-walk ratio while allowing an insane amount of home runs this season. Perhaps even stranger is the surprising amount of balls put into the playing field are resulting in hits (Batting Average on Balls in Play). Here are some of Shields' numbers:

 

K/9

BB/9

HR/9

HR/FB

BABIP

2010

8.4

2.2

1.54

14.0%

0.344

Career

7.4

2

1.22

11.7%

0.313

 

The pro-Shields crowd will point to Shields' xFIP of 3.70 and declare that HR/FB rates should normalize beyond single seasons. The anti-Shields mantra revolves around our old friend "hittability."  While BABIP rates also typically normalize, the distance from a typical norm of .290-.300 is pretty loud. This is particularly true when you factor the Rays well-above average team defense which is a variable that has helped produce the following for staff BABIP rates:

Star-divide

Pitcher

BABIP

David Price

0.291

Matt Garza

0.260

Jeff Niemann

0.270

Wade Davis

0.264

James Shields

0.346

The home run rate or BABIP alone would be easy to dismiss as random variation, but it does raise some questions when produced in stereo given the lack of overlap.   tERA which removes batted-ball location luck while still accounting for batted-ball types has Shields at 4.47 for the season.

Going back to Tommy's piece, I took a look at all pitchers in the American League going back to 1920 who produced a season of 175 innings pitched, with a K/9 north of 8 and a BB/9 south of 3. This produced a sample of 58 seasons by 30 different pitchers. The list of pitchers who have accomplished this in multiple seasons is: Curt Schilling, Felix Hernandez, Frank Tanana, Javier Vasquez, Johan Santana, Josh Beckett, Justin Verlander, Luis Tiant, Mickey Lolich, MIke Mussina, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, and Zack Greinke. On its own, its a pretty impressive accomplishment, but what if we look at BABIP and HR/9 (hittability) for these 58 seasons?

First Shields versus the average of the subset:

 

HR/9

BABIP

OPS+

James Shields

1.54

0.331

116

Average

0.83

0.286

70

Rank

1

1

1

 

OPS+ is how far high or below league league average a pitcher's OPS against, park-adjusted for their stadium. Shields OPS+ is at 116. How big an outlier is this? No other season out of these 58 had an OPS+ above average. Again when considering that BABIP and HR/9 have no overlap, it is hard to deny a real concern of hittability that separates Shields from this peer group.

Finally let's take a look at the worst five performers in this class in both HR/9 and BABIP to see how much cross-over there may be.

 

Player

Year

Age

BAbip

HR/9

OPS+

James Shields

2010

28

0.331

1.54

116

Pedro Ramos

1963

28

0.256

1.41

88

Johan Santana

2007

28

0.273

1.36

80

Randy Johnson

2005

41

0.285

1.28

85

Curt Schilling

2006

39

0.327

1.24

90

 

These are your worst season in terms of HR/9: three 28 year-olds and old men Schilling and Johnson. Only Schilling comes close to matching Shields' BABIP. This was Schilling's second-to-last season and the home run rate followed him the following season. Unlike Shields who plays behind a top-notch defense, the 2006 Red Sox defense was third from the bottom according to UZR. All things being equal, it is less surprising for Schilling to post the high BABIP due to the quality of the defense behind him. Now for the BABIP underperformers:

 

Player

BAbip

HR/9

Year

Age

OPS+

James Shields

0.331

1.54

2010

28

116

Curt Schilling

0.327

1.24

2006

39

90

Pedro Martinez

0.325

0.38

1999

27

35

Justin Verlander

0.323

0.75

2009

26

72

Jeremy Bonderman

0.32

0.76

2006

23

84

 

Again, we have the fading Schilling, this time accompanied by three pitchers with below-average home run rates. In summary, xFIP is probably not the best indicator to use in evaluating James Shields given the hittability issues he has displayed relative to his peer group. Instead we should continue to ask the questions regarding his process. There is no denying Shields has a plus changeup which he uses to put away some of the best hitters in the game, and the ability to throw strikes to keep his walk rate down. The process of how to best get James Shields in spots to put away hitters with the change while minimizing the amount of hittable pitches remains the difference between Shields and the true talent level of the the majority of this peer group.  

Final note: In 2000 Pedro Martinez posted an OPS+ of 18. This is the result of a slash line against of .167/.213/.259 with a K/9 of 11.8 and a BB/9 of 1.3. Wow.

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In the chart of Shields vs the average 8/3 season, why is his BABIP .331 not .344?

The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "Free the slaves at traffic stops from false arrest and jury fixing"

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 8, 2010 10:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Sorry meant to explain that

.344 was Fgraphs and .331 was B-Ref. B-Ref may leave homers in the denominator or something?

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

One thing i havent had time to check

Is his BABIP by batted ball type. His batted ball data (ld%, gb%, fb%) are all within career norms, but his BABIP is elevated. Be interested to know if one set of the data is going for a hit a lot more than normal or is it across the board.

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by Tommy Rancel on Sep 8, 2010 10:27 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Home runs are removed to calculate babip

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
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by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 8, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

In 2000 Pedro Martinez posted an OPS+ of 18. This is the result of a slash line against of .167/.213/.259 with a K/9 of 11.8 and a BB/9 of 1.3. Wow.

During the height of the steroid era. Double wow.

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 8, 2010 11:27 AM EDT reply actions  

eh...seen better

ever see Winston pitch in Durham?

r_j_anderson (on fungible assets)
"@TRancel @Marc_Normandin @ehahmann AKA free talent. Not great talent, mind you, but essentially free."

by CubFanRaysaddict on Sep 8, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yields!!!!!!!!!!!

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by sternfan1 on Sep 8, 2010 11:39 AM EDT reply actions  

Awesome post. Rec'd

Shocking that he ranks #1 in BABIP, HR/9 and OPS+ … Especially when pitching in front of this defense.

Do people still want to keep shields over garza?

by RaysTheRoof on Sep 8, 2010 11:50 AM EDT reply actions  

yes

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 8, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Go for it.

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 8, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

RIUN

The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "Free the slaves at traffic stops from false arrest and jury fixing"

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Sep 8, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're welcome.

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 8, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's still a very good pitcher

I just can’t put him in this peer group. There are other issues such as leaving him in too long (Shields falls off way more than average after 100 pitches or perhaps more telling the 4th time through the order.) i don’t think its as clear cut as to who is better as either side thinks.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

But along with Shields' hittability comes better K/BB numbers

The question is would Shields be better off with a slightly worse K/BB if it would result in less fat pitches.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

THIS

This is what I have been wondering about ALL season. Has Shields become too focused on the k/bb or at the very least the amount of walks that he has left himself vulnerable with very hittable pitches?

I noticed the change in the way teams started to hit him last year… it seems it caught on this year. Teams know they can hammer his fastballs and its not always home runs. Batters are really crushing the ball all over the park, the homer is just one part of the problem. Looking at the stats on pitch type… his changup kills opposing batters but for whatever reason teams are really getting a hold of his fastball.

I have been wondering all season is it a case of him focusing on limiting walks and thus leaving a lot of freebees over the plate OR have batters just figured out how to pick out his fastballs better. Dont have any inside info to answer so all we can do is speculate. But for a while it seemed nobody even wanted to speculate whats wrong with Shields. Its nice to see more opening up their minds to the discusion.

IMO something is wrong. And its too easy to dismiss it as fluctuation in homeruns that will correct itself. Its bigger and I really enjoyed your analysis of the situation. I would like to add look at his total bases… that for me was telling of what we see on the field. Teams are not only getting homers but driving the ball for lots of doubles too.

The biggest question is how will he keep teams off his fastball?

by raysnghell on Sep 10, 2010 5:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

the cost is actually pretty close

          Shields Garza
11: 4.25 5-6(thru arb)
12: 7.25 ~8 (arb 3)
13: 9.00 ~10 (arb 4)

IF this holds true, Garza’s cost is about an additional 3-4 mil over Shields. If Garza dominates again in the post-season as he did in ‘08, I’d rather have the pitcher who is still tapping into his potential.

by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 8, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I recall looking earlier in the season

When I thought he was throwing a faster fastball (about 1 mph more vs previous years) and noticed that it appeared a little straighter (although never had as much movement as others). It also appears he just throws the ball over the heart of the plate more than other pitchers. So I don’t mean to be glib, especially when making statements w/o doing the backup analysis, but is he simply throwing straight fastballs over the middle of the plate more than others? If I can find some time, I’ll look into. But that “process” wouldn’t necessarily correlate with the good k/bb ratio and would make sense for the higher babip and hr/9.

by Mulva on Sep 8, 2010 11:58 AM EDT reply actions  

The desire to work ahead

Fastballs over the plate certainly keep walks down and teams that work the count may fail to capitalize. Look at Benny’s improved successlast night jumping on FP fastball.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Preview:

22 of his HR’s (73%) allowed have come off the FF or FT, while only throwing those pitches 45.5% of the time. Will see if there is enough interesting pitchfx data here to merit a post.

by Mulva on Sep 8, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

This doesn't follow to me at all.

Comparing him to a great group of pitchers, and his BABIP and HR/9 are way worse thus killing his OPS+. Then you go on to claim this proves his “hitability.” How? If anything, to me, at least it shows just how unlucky Shields has been. A better way to show this would be to find pitchers who put up these kinds of BABIP and HR/FB seasons and see if they rebounded or how it compared to career norms. This doesn’t lead me to believe that SHields is the pitcher that breaks xFIP, it shows me he’s due to rebound.

by rglass44 on Sep 8, 2010 2:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Of course he should rebound

But should we expect his K:BB numbers to fallback? Shields is posting monster K:BB numbers. Well those take 3 ball counts and 2 strike counts.

If his BABIP is lower, that alone will result in fewer strikeouts per nine innings affecting his FIP numbers. So I guess the question is: Has Shields bad luck actually led him to on this list due to fewer batted outs? Or is Shields on this list because he tries to cheat his way ahead in the count to strikeouts situations nd he gets caught with his han in the cookie jar? While I’m sure this is about as high as we could expect in HR/FB and BABIP, the high K/9 may go hand in hand, thus not putting him in the company of the other pitchers on this list.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

To me, it comes down to something as simple as not understanding the statistic that you are using fully.

If he’s facing more batters per 9 then he could be striking out the same amount, he’s just facing more. Look at the percentages:

Year K% BB%
2006 19.3% 7.0%
2007 21.1% 4.1%
2008 18.2% 4.6%
2009 18.0% 5.6%
2010 21.3% 5.6%

He’s striking out roughly 19% more batters than last year and about 17% more than the previous year, but it looks like a larger increase when looked at per nine.

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 8, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

This was true also during Kaz's decline.

I did a post on this.How much have Scott Kazmir’s strikeouts truly declined?
  Comapring % to K/9. The most common pitching metrics used are of the per nine variety. His % numbers are less inspiring.

Garza has been pretty consistent in outperforming Shields in BABIP with the same defense over the past three years.

I simply feel that the critics overblow the Shields concerns, but the defenders are too quick to discard balls that hit bats (whether in play or in the stands) from evaluation of pitcher ability. Shields season is too far away from the other outliers in the spectrum for me to believe otherwise.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I think you were the first to really draw my attention to it.

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 8, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

POssibly

His FIP isn’t awful because of his strong K and BB/9 stats. Those could be affected if he gets more nibbly or even has his luck change for the better.

Garza is in the midst of his 3rd straight sub 4 ERA season with a FIp in the 4.10-4.20 range, also has beaten Shields in tERA 2 of the last 3 years. Its not clear cut.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

The 13 multiplier on the HR/9 is a bit more likely to affect the FIP than being "more nibbly."

Even though his Zone% is within career norms, his O-Sw% is higher than norm, and his ball% is within career norms, he’s somehow “more hittable” due to “trying to cheat his way ahead.” Oh yeah, his first pitch strike % is lower too.

by rglass44 on Sep 8, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

BABIP and HR/FB are highly volatile over a single season.

Felipe Paulino had a 16% HR/FB last season and now he’s at 2%. Did he get less hittable? No. This stuff happens. That’s why the smart people created xFIP.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Check this out

http://saberlibrary.com/

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 8, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Feel free to ask questions as well, legitimate questions are usually answered pretty quickly around here

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 8, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Statcorner, B-Ref, and Fangraphs should cover most of your needs, if you're looking to do pitchfx stuff then

I like Joelefkowitz.com, though texasleaguers.com and brooksbaseball.net are also nice tools

The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.

Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 8, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

And honestly, most of this just confirms that he's an outlier.

He’s got ridiculous strikeout/walk rates and yet he’s hittable? Don’t buy it. Sorry. No pitcher has a true talent HR/FB like Shields has right now. Let me amend that: no Major League pitcher. Those guys don’t last.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

He also has the SS% of any of the starters besides Price. His career SS% sits around 10% which is better than anyone on staff. I guess it’s his “hittable” stuff.

by rglass44 on Sep 8, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

You lost me here...

I am arguing that this season strikeout/BABIP/HR/9 are all somewhat flukish this season. xFIP does not indicate his true talent level bc his K numbers are somewhat related to his BABIP and HR numbers.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

His true talent level is closer to his xFIP than his ERA.

Even if you think he’s a 12 HR/FB% guy, just add that in for his HR. What’s his FIP then?

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Per nine wise we can say this

B/c the K number is based on total outs, not total batters. So everybody who bats into a hit or HR helps Shields K/9.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a four homer difference.

Maybe the subsequent batters make a huge difference, but there’s no way to say.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

BABIP too

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're speculating. That's all we can do, but it's total speculation.

He’s striking out more batters than in the past. It’s not just because of the homers.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure

But his K% increase pales to his K per nine increase.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would hope everyone is aware that % is safer than per IP

But then again, people think single year HR rates are reliable, so whatever.

Hey, Niemann went from the least hittable guy ever to the most hittable. That or not.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Only in terms of HR

Its the combo of HR and BABIP that is concerning given the lack of overlap.Don’t overread the word concern either. I am referring to hittability not the quality of pitcher.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

You arent seeing the bigger pitcher

using just a k/bb rate to value a pitchers hittability is not being honest wih all the stats, especial in Shields case. He has two pitches at the EXTREMES his changeup and fastball. And they are like night and day. His change will ring up the strikouts, that looks great for the k rate but all his variations of the fastball have been very hittable. Actually at one point not to long ago they had the worst pitch value of any pitcher in the league. Kinda makes it hard to dismiss hittability.

This is will be a rather simplistic way to look at the situation but it may be a way to see where your error in logic/using just k/bb is failing you.

Lets say for every changup pitcher X throws he gets a strikout. Good. For every fastball pitcher X throws its down the middle…. no balls and no walks… Good. BUT if for every fastball pitcher X throws down the middle the opposing batters gets a hit. I know this is extreme example and very simplistic but pitcher X would have a great k/bb rate. But does that make the END RUSLTS good? If teams keeps scoring runs of pitcher X it doesn’t matter how good his k/bb or k/9 or bb/9 are. Is it ok to reward pitcher X because his k/bb rates are good? Why should he be considered good if teams keep hitting that down the plate fastball and scroing RUNS. Process is something that is important correct? If you know the process of pitcher X is fastball down the middle for no walk but a hit will end in lots of runs can you say that the process is good? In this situation k/bb will be great but the process will still lead to BAD results.

I know the example is rather simplistic but no more simplistic than championing a pitchers quality based on k/bb or k/9 or bb/9. Of coarse not every fastball Shields throws is down the middle. Not every changeup results in a strike. But the example is not to far off. Shields fastball does find itself far too often in a hittable situation. And far to often now the RESULTS are not good even though he racks up a lot of strikeouts with his change. Look at his LD%. Look at his total bases. His problems are not just homeruns but bad fastballs that are being hit hard all over the place including over the fences.

Just because he can strikout a lot of batters and not walk many it does not guarantee he will keep teams from SCORING and in baseball thats what really matters. Scoreboard. Not K not BB. Fun stats to play with but they mean crap if a pitcher is letting batters drive his pitches all over the place for runs. This problem will not “correct” itself or find “good luck” until Shields figures out how to get batters off his fastball!!!!

BTW Again you are considering all the facts by claiming this is just a problem of to small a sample of just “this year”. Shields stuggled with the same thing last season too, especially in the second half. You are only fooling yourself if you think this is no issue that will fix itself in time because its just small samples or bad luck. This isnt going away until Shields himself makes the changes to keep opposing batters from teeing off on his fastball.

by raysnghell on Sep 10, 2010 5:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

But......

What else has changed for Paulino?
K/9 dropped from 8.57 to 7.95. BB/9 increased from 3.4 to 4.5. Those are dramatic changes. K:BB fell froma good 2.5 to a bad 1.75 and consequently xFIP rose from 4.10 to 4.59.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Say he was at 12% -- a career high, but whatever

He’d have 26 homers on 214 FB instead of 30. This is 2% above league average. His xFIP would have him allowing something like 23-24 homers. The 12% HR/FB rate puts his xFIP (the 12% one) at 3.96. Still WAY better than his ERA and about what I’d tab his TTL at.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:32 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't doubt for a second he has an inflated ERA

11.25% HR/FB 7.6 K/9, 2.1 BB/9 seems about right for what I’d project

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you don't think he's hittable?

Because your post is really unclear on that point and I think some people are taking that away from it.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd say it is rather clear:
In summary, xFIP is probably not the best indicator to use in evaluating James Shields given the hittability issues he has displayed relative to his peer group.

by rglass44 on Sep 8, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I stand by this

The peer group being this elite class of pitcher, not all MLB pitchers

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Out of context

You missed where I said he was in the argument for #2 pitcher on the staff.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Defending Niemann?

I thought his success was tabbed unsustainable. There’s been this secret nagging wait for the other shoe to drop with him. The injury history, his low SS% and K numbers… He’s not THIS bad, but I don’t think he’s as good as he was before either.

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by staplemaniac on Sep 8, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, he wasn't as good as he was before or even last year.

But the people wanting to throw him to the wolves are being too reactionary. He’s a ~league averagish starter. That’s good and fine until he gets expensive, then he’ll belong to someone else.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

But not all arguments are the same

People who say Shields shoudn’t start int he playoffs are nuts. People saying he and Garza are similar and the better pitcher on any night may be based on characteristics of the opposing lineup is not a stupid stance. Saying Shields does not belong in the elite class of 8:3 K:BB seasons because he clearly has been BABIP and HR/9ed far worse than any other pitcher is a fair argument.

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by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's not the way your argument seems.

I don’t know if it was intentional or not, but I was offended by the tone about Shields in this peice (primarily at the end), and I’m a pretty big Shields hater.

by rglass44 on Sep 8, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Risk minimization is valuable.

Besides, Shields isn’t Jon Garland. He’s really, really good, cheap, and consistent.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

RJ

Do you think it is outside of the scope of possibilities that Shields has one very dominant pitch and one very “hittable” pitch, and that this could allow for someone to have a good K/9 but also consistently above average babip and HR/9?

by Mulva on Sep 8, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

His change-up and curve are both good pitches.

His fastball is not as bad as everyone seems to make it either.

I just don’t get how people hate Shields and love mini-Shields.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

And yes, as the sample size grows

I’m more prone to accept he’s more of a .305-.315 BABIP guy with a 10-11% HR/FB. I don’t buy the .335 or 14% though.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

You could argue that he needs to just suck it up and walk a guy when he falls down 3-0/3-1

Particularly to disciplined hitters — J.D. Drew for instance — but then people would complain about the walks going up.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, it doesn't seem like Shields gets a ton of double plays.

I don’t know the GB% on his pitches, but you’d think a guy with that kind of change/curve combo would get more, no?

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

You would think that

But his GB% is down like 5% since 2008. If he could get that to go up again, he’d be better off.

PIZZA?!?

by Transplanted on Sep 8, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who is to say it was ever 16% though?

Maybe the Rays changed scorers those two years.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

But that'd only take away from FBs

LD should be defined by angle though, but kinda hard to do that from a box.

PIZZA?!?

by Transplanted on Sep 8, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like assigning 50-75% credit depending on what people who watch the pitcher say.

If I don’t know one way or the other, I just assume half and half are really FB/GB.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe

Still would like to see a BIP splits for him pitches. FB, CU, CH give LD/GB/FB% when hit into play.

PIZZA?!?

by Transplanted on Sep 8, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

7 of his HR's were with 3 balls

more interesting is that 10 of them came on the first pitch of the at-bat, all being some type of fastball

by Mulva on Sep 8, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

No hate here

And agree on the curve. Obviously a generalization above. But it seems feasible to me (not saying with any conviction this is the case with Shields, but I think it is worth expoloring) that this outcome is possible. You seem to imply from various statements above such as "He’s got ridiculous strikeout/walk rates and yet he’s hittable? Don’t buy it. Sorry. "

by Mulva on Sep 8, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't buy that this is true talent level.

Meaning 2010.

Should’ve made that more clear. Sorry.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 8, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't either

But I think it is reasonable that his “true talent level” is above league average in this regard

by Mulva on Sep 8, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Very good

Your assesment of Shields and this situation is very valid and if you had access to pick the mind of a few scouts around the league I bet you they would tell you the same thing you jsut said.

Its just tough sometimes as “fans” of certain players to have an open mind and an honest assesment of the situation. There is a large emotional factor that fans will go through to “validate” their pet players with their favorite stats.

by raysnghell on Sep 10, 2010 6:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're generally a pretty sensitive guy Glassy

Thats how SF1 gets you going. Re-read it: what’s offensive?

have the fading Schilling, this time accompanied by three pitchers with below-average home run rates. In summary, xFIP is probably not the best indicator to use in evaluating James Shields given the hittability issues he has displayed relative to his peer group. Instead we should continue to ask the questions regarding his process. There is no denying Shields has a plus changeup which he uses to put away some of the best hitters in the game, and the ability to throw strikes to keep his walk rate down. The process of how to best get James Shields in spots to put away hitters with the change while minimizing the amount of hittable pitches remains the difference between Shields and the true talent level of the the majority of this peer group.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Explain

B/c I disagree. Certain guys seem off-limits from criticism to you.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shields?

LOL

Ask rj about our Shields convos.

I just think the post leaves a lot to be desired. You compare his season to a bunch of GREAT seasons, then his absurdley high BABIP/HR numbers are out of line. As a result you deem him “hittable.” Seems like you had your mind madeup he was hittable beforehand because gross outliers will be gross outliers in any group.

by rglass44 on Sep 8, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

By great seasons, you mean every other season above 8K/9 and below 3 walks

I wanted to see if other pitchers with those specs had anywhere near the BABIP and/or HR/9 issues.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

Shields #‘s don’t hold up because of the issues he has had off the bat. Can’t dismiss them.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Sep 8, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm struggling with what you aren't getting?

It is worth discussion that Shields is a massive outlier in terms of batted ball metrics when looking at historical comparisons of pitchers with such a good K/9, BB/9.

I’m fine with wanting more detail to support the “hittable” arguement, but it is AMAZING to me the discrepancy between Shields and everyone else in history with those metrics.

I believe you jumped to the conclusion of how unlucky that shows he is, which may be right, but that is a large gap. Maybe he is a 6 sigma event, but I think it is worth exploring potential reasons why, and I think that was Free Zorilla’s point here.

by Mulva on Sep 8, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I just misread it then.

To me, and others, it seems he was implying these tables somehow settle that Shields is hittable. In my opinion, even if he is a tough more hittable, these tables do show that he is an extreme outlier. Generally in baseball, I see outlier, and I bet that the outlier comes back to earth.

by rglass44 on Sep 8, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reading some of the above comments by the 'experts'

the Rays of the future will be inhabited by a bunch of ‘league average’ players, exactly the formula to win in the ALE

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 8, 2010 5:23 PM EDT reply actions  

I was playing MLB 09 the Show the other day and realized something:

We had a pretty average team in 2008. Consider this, our starters:

Rk Pos PA HR SB OBP SLG OPS+
1 C Dioner Navarro# 470 7 0 .349 .407 100
2 1B Carlos Pena* 607 31 1 .377 .494 129
3 2B Akinori Iwamura* 707 6 8 .349 .380 93
4 SS Jason Bartlett 494 1 20 .329 .361 83
5 3B Evan Longoria 508 27 7 .343 .531 127
6 LF Carl Crawford* 480 8 25 .319 .400 89
7 CF B.J. Upton 640 9 44 .383 .401 108
8 RF Gabe Gross* 345 13 2 .333 .434 101
9 DH Cliff Floyd* 284 11 1 .349 .455 111

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 9/8/2010.

That’s pretty close to average to me.

A DRaysBay writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 8, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's why they played so well

They were so average, the production was spread out.

PIZZA?!?

by Transplanted on Sep 8, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Remember he only had 282 PAs with us.

So he was productive rate-wise, but not in very real terms.

A DRaysBay writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Sep 8, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

great article, followed by the usual ridiculousness from the usual sources

“Yeah, he’s getting repeatedly hit all over the yard. But good news! If you (mis)use this here xScoreboard stat, the losses don’t count!”

Love,
The “sabermatics trumps reality” cult

by zeng8r on Sep 8, 2010 5:52 PM EDT reply actions  

He just needs to learn how to win like CC Sabathia.

www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel

by Tommy Rancel on Sep 8, 2010 6:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

straw man argument much?

There’s one extreme, then there’s the other extreme.

Saber-stats can be very revealing. However, they are not reality; they’re supposed to model reality. The must be used wisely and in moderation for best results.

Balance in all things, imo.

by zeng8r on Sep 8, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent post

Shields has provided a lot to discuss. I took it as another way to look at the results of his season. I dont understand whats so hard to understand?

Considering the plateu Shields reached with his k/bb one might be lead to believe that Shields had a great season. Other stats where include to round out the picture of Shields season. Its a great example of how the overwieghting of one or a few stats is fallible.

by raysnghell on Sep 10, 2010 6:28 AM EDT reply actions  

"Oh darn," said Captain Sabermatity-Over-Reality

“poor James is being unlucky again tonight.”

by zeng8r on Sep 10, 2010 8:57 PM EDT reply actions  

ROFLMAO

Its just so damn unlucky those batters can see my juicy ahh meata ball right down the middle! pure bad luck i tell ya LOL

Bullpen time for Shields boys. At least there he doesnt have to pace his game. If that allows him to get just a little more on his fastball it might bring them back to the effective zone. one could hope. Anybody remeber what the transformation for Howell? Who knows, may save Shields carrer and fastball.

by raysnghell on Sep 12, 2010 5:16 AM EDT reply actions  

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