The Responsibility of Media
As I type this I'm currently engaged in an argument with a friend of mine regarding BABIP and numerous other sabermetric concepts. This friend is a smart individual and is generally open minded about most things. He reads the paper and usually has a good understanding of what’s going on with the team. But that’s as far as it goes. Anything past what the media – namely the local media – has told him doesn’t exist. If those concepts were so much better than the traditional ways we evaluate players and situations why wouldn’t they be discussed and written about more, he asks? I couldn’t give him a good answer, which only seemed to bolster his point in his mind. That got me to thinking, how much responsibility does the local media have to educate their respective readerships?
I guess it starts with how educated and informed the media is itself. After all, you can’t teach what you don’t know. But in 2010 with all the information that’s readily available, not to mention the access they are provided with, there is no excuse for a columnist or beat writer to not be on top of his or her game. I’m not asking them to spend hours looking through the pages of FanGraphs or Baseball Prospectus. Even without going extremely saber heavy one can provide the reader with something that can open his mind up to a world of other possibilities. It comes back to the writers.
Personally, I think the obligation of a newspaper – be it print or web based – should be to report and educate whenever possible. If you’re in a position where you have a readership in the hundreds of thousands you will no doubt leave an impression on, if not shape the opinions of, a large number of those individuals. Take Geoff Baker, beat writer of the Seattle Times as an example. Yesterday Baker wrote a blog post contesting a Hartford Courant piece stating that C.C. Sabathia "knows how to win games" better than Felix Hernandez. Mr. Baker didn’t use any sabermetric stats to support his case; he instead used sound logic and reason to clearly and easily break down for the reader why the widely accepted adage of "knowing how to win" is foolish. That is something extra that Baker does for his readers. He's under no obligation by the paper to do such a thing, yet he does, and the fan base is better for it. It's no coincidence that with Baker, and his equally as talented collegue Larry Stone, the Mariners have one of the smartest fan bases in the game.
The point of this isn't to disparage any particular member of the Tampa Bay media. Though, one could make a pretty good case that they do not do enough with what is at their disposal, especially considering how progressive the Rays are. One does wonder, especially in this economy, how those who do not go much above the standard are going to keep their jobs. The readers watched the game, they don't need a game story anymore to tell them about the action; the paper can run the AP story for that. Those who do more will benefit, and in turn will the readers.
Maybe I'm totally wrong. Maybe you think that the writers have no responsibility whatsoever to educate. That they are there for reporting and nothing more. And that's fine. No one is wrong. I posed the question at hand to FanGraphs contributor and all around good guy, Carson Cistulli. His response: "I'm gonna say none. I'm also gonna say that I'll refuse to read their work so long as its functioning below a certain threshold of, you know, discourse." That's a totally understandable answer, and I'm sure many of you feel the same. If it's not up to your standards, why read it? But Mr. Cistulli and those reading this site are not your average fan. We make up a tiny percentage of the total baseball readership. The larger portion doesn't know any better, having been constantly shadowed under a cloud of ignorance cast by those too lazy or inept to do otherwise. I think it should be different. Maybe, one day it will.
What do you think?
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Comments
Sadly, writers are under no obligation to educate the fans, but at the same time I can't believe that more don't do it.
When people can get more in-depth coverage of their team from elsewhere for cheaper, it doesn’t suggest good things about your job security. They need to do something unique and as far as I see, lots of them don’t.
I love baseball, but I rarely open a sports page anymore. And when I do, I almost never find stuff in there that was useful.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 9, 2010 10:21 AM EDT reply actions
Let me clarify:
I feel like they should have an obligation to educate more than they do, but that’s not the status quo at the moment.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 9, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I discussed it further with Carson
It’s something that would seemingly be impossible to enforce.
by Erik Hahmann on Sep 9, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
On a nation-wide scale? Yes, you couldn't enforce that.
But individual papers can have control over their content. Editors can stress to their writers the type of pieces they want and change the content of their paper, I would imagine.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 9, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Individual businesses can and do make these choices.
Please, please, please, let’s not start discussing national mandates.
Yeah, I know...I was just unsure what Erik was talking about.
It seems very possible to enact change, if you wanted to.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 9, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm saying I doubt they would know what to enforce
And there would be way too much wiggle room
by Erik Hahmann on Sep 9, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, "enforcement" wouldn't work or come off well.
But I’m not asking for newsrooms to focus solely on educating…just to try and branch outside the typical cliches and analysis on occasion would be enough for me. Just an effort.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 9, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you suggesting that the editors know more about particular subject matters then the writers themselves?
So I should just change my sig to
I hate everyone of color, along with invalids, the old, and the retarded?
by firemangreg on Jul 21, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Not necessarily...more making the point that whoever is in charge of their content can change it if they desire.
But I suppose you would hope the people higher on up the ladder would know at least as much as their writers, if not more.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 9, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
It's a great point, I'll occasionally get a paper for the crossword, but whereas I used to flip through the sports page, I don't even bother
anymore since I’ve already caught up on everything that I need to via the web. The best Rays content comes free of charge.
The great thing about baseball is that it requires careful observation not simply attendance and it rewards the analytical person while consistently befuddling the superficial.
Help others while helping yourself by purchasing this Trade Deadline Primer:
http://dockoftherays.com/2010/07/03/2010-trade-deadline-primer/
by Andy Hellicksonstine on Sep 9, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
The purpose of the media is the same as any other business:
Make a profit.
It is very hard to do so when you 1) limit your audience and 2) make the consumer of your product feel stupid.
The majority of Americans do not want to be educated on an ongoing basis. I’m obviously not comfortable with this, nor is that how I feel, and I’m sure many who read this, but that is not the case for the majority. The good news is we have other options, and the distribution capabilities of those options have increased significantly in our lifetime (Thanks Al Gore!).
This is something that is going to be consumer driven.
Until they are exposed to something different, they do not know any better. My problem with the local media is not only do I read many different writers online, I also see a lot in print when I travel to other markets for my job. There are a few I go out of my way to read: Baker is one of them, and Jordan Bastian for mlb.com that covers the Blue Jays is another.
Those two markets seem to embrace the different approach while ours seems content with what it has. My dad loves baseball but I had to pull out my freaking laptop to show him where Topkin made a factual error in reporting Baldelli could replace JP Howell on the post-season roster because my dad said, and I quote, “Why should I believe some blogger over the guy that gets paid to cover the team?” He was just playing devil’s advocate with me but wanted me to prove to him how a writer could make that type of mistake.
Educating readers is one thing, but you also have to make sure you’re factually correct when doing so.
Exactly. I'm guessing there are a lot of people out there who would be very open to more advanced ideas
They just haven’t been exposed to it yet.
by Erik Hahmann on Sep 9, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
BHSN
The work that Tommy, RJ, and I are doing for them grew out of this idea. I approached the Orlando Sentinel with it first but was told they had no interest and they were looking in a different direction. Meanwhile, they’ve printed ONE Rays article all season but I bet they’ll be there to ask for their post-season credentials while guys like you and me don’t get one despite doing 1000000000000x the work they did.
by Jason Collette on Sep 9, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
The work you guys are doing is great.
The more we can get outside-the-box thinking into mainstream channels, the better. You guys have been a step in that direction and it’s awesome.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 9, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, BHSN has been good about that. Guys like JB Long get it.
by Erik Hahmann on Sep 9, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
yes
In fact, it was JB that helped get us to the right people.
by Jason Collette on Sep 9, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
"Why should I believe some blogger over the guy that gets paid to cover the team?"
He may have been playing devil’s advocate, but I know this is how a lot of people think.
The opportunity is so there for one of the big media boys in the area to reinvent the way in which they report the Rays and any of the other sports teams. The contrast between their reporting and the other guys would be huge.
Good on BHSN for seeing opportunity when they see it.
I like pie
Education is a natural side effect of good reporting
Any difference between education and reporting is probably down to finicky semantics. I’d see reporting as more passive than educating. Unfortunately the business of journalism is on some fairly shaky ground, so expectations should be tempered.
However the facts are the very least we could expect from reporters. It blows my mind when I hear people (mostly on talk radio) pontificate about how you can’t learn anything from a spreadsheet, or that using batting average and RBIs worked for 100 years, etc.
It’s a quite simple fact: the Rays use advanced statistics and evaluation methods. You can opine all you want whether the team relies too strongly on advanced stats, or that they’re using the wrong advances stats; but if you’re reporting about the Rays, you need to be familiar with these advanced evaluation methods and acknowledge their importance to the team.
Explaining these methods to a readership that is mostly unfamiliar with them is vital. However educating the readers really shouldn’t be considered a standalone responsibility, but more a necessary function of the overall goal of reporting the facts.
I like pie
Agreed
And part of the process should be a willingness to interact with the readership. Props to Joe Henderson who has replied to me on Twitter a few times and even commented on stuff I tweeted but the other writers tweets consist of content push 99.9% of the time and I can count their replies to others on one hand.
by Jason Collette on Sep 9, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Putting two and two together
It’s something that a lot of trad media still hasn’t done. They complain about dwindling interest, they complain about the growing influence of new media; and yet they still haven’t realized getting meaningfully involved in the latter would probably help with the former.
Emphasis on the word “meaningfully.” A tweet with a link to your stories on your website is not meaningful. Actually interacting with your readership is very meaningful.
I like pie
Here's my thought on the subject (with respect to print media)
The newspaper is read by a mainly older crowd. When I think about someone reading the paper, I picture my father. The guy reads it cover to cover every day. He loves baseball but isn’t interested in the Saber stats. His joy from baseball has evolved over decades of comparing how many RBI’s Willie Mays got versus how many Ted Williams got, etc…
If the St. Pete Times put out a “Saber Primer” and started printing stats such as WAR and VORP, I think he would just skip over it and look at ERA and Runs scored. I wonder if the older crowd that reads the paper is just too old to have any interest in hearing about how the stats they grew up studying and loving are bascially useless. My dad certainly is.
Regressing to the mean streets of St. Pete
Valid point
But why not put the section out there and see how it goes over in focus testing? After all, some of those stats are shown on the scoreboard at The Trop but aren’t even referenced in the paper. I’m not even talking about WAR or VORP – start with OPS, K/BB, HR/9 rate, etc.
by Jason Collette on Sep 9, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Or something as simple as this
Garza sucked last night. But why did he suck? That doesn’t take any saber stats.
by Erik Hahmann on Sep 9, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
That hits upon the crux of the matter. "Why?"
That’s all saber-stuff boils down to, when you get to its roots: asking why. And you don’t need to use fancy stats to do it.
But I wonder if journalists view that questions as not part of their modus operandi…they’re supposed to be objective reporters of the game, and I wonder if they feel digging into why something happened takes away from the reporting and gets into more subjectivity.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 9, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
For me...
It isn’t even about the use of advanced stats. I think there are people of all ages who rather use the traditional metrics instead of newer ones and that’s fine. To me, the purpose of writing about the team is providing something different.
We all watch the games. Tell the reader something they may not have noticed. Go more in depth into a decision that may or may have not been made and use reasoning. Just go beyond what we already know.
I’ll use last night’s game as an example. Garza sucked. He gave up 4 bombs. We all saw this. The local papers give you a recap of what you saw with some generic quotes “they hit home runs tonight.” That’s great, but we already knew this.
Although I watched every one of Garza’s pitches, I didn’t notice until I read it on DRB that he induced only one whiff and it didn’t even come on his fastball which he threw nearly 80% of the time. That’s worth mentioning when Garza’s stuff should generate more. It’s not overly sabermetric, but I am more educated about Garza’s poor start than I was before reading.
That has always been my goal when I write. Not necessarily “educate” in the sense that I’m smarter than anyone reading, but go further than this happened, so let’s move on.
www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Sep 9, 2010 11:38 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
At the same time...
Like Steve said, a beat writer’s job is to report on what happened. So maybe we shouldn’t expect them to go beyond. I guess that’s where a site like this comes in.
www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Sep 9, 2010 11:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Let's not forget the influence of TV broadcasts
Some credit where it’s due: 10 years ago there’s no chance you’d see anything like OPS or WHIP or BB/9 during a TV broadcast of a game.
If people are more willing to believe a paid newspaper writer than a blogger (mind you, some of them are paid too), they’ll definitely believe the station being paid to show the games than anyone else. If you start putting different stats on the screen during a game, people will learn about them, even if it means going out to get the information themselves.
The TV broadcasts have the same problem as the newspapers: a lot of people in the business are used to the old ways. If you get some people in the booth who are willing to think more critically, fans will follow suit.
I like pie
And I forgot to mention
The Rays broadcasts have been doing a decent job of some critical thinking. A couple of games ago I remember them showing that Price, Garza and Davis are all in the top 5 or 6 in the AL in fastball rate. Again, that never happens even 5 years ago.
I like pie
Theyve even done a few things with run expectancy
At the same time you still have Kennedy with his well in my day stuff.
www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Sep 9, 2010 11:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think the media reports what the masses know and understand
Sabermetrics is new and much like the computer which today is a household item, it too was considered as something strange and difficult to accept
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
But they'll never "know and understand" more advanced thinking if they're never introduced to it.
by Erik Hahmann on Sep 9, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
In time my friend, in due time
i see many broadcasts include graphics of OBP once unheard of. Also i heard Jon Miller speak of OPS the other day
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Branch Rickey knew that OBP was more important than BA way back when.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Branch Rickey would love Zoby then
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
This will shock you (no it won't): Friedman admires Branch Rickey.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Yet i don't want 9 Zoby's
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
As for game telecasts, most of the analysts are ex players
who seem reluctant to accept advanced stats, so naturally won’t talk about them
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Most players are stupid as a bag of rocks.
Kennedy has done a nice job proving that it extends to managers as well.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
David Cone was the only es player/analyst who repeatedly spoke of advanced stats
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
There's more.
I like the Cubs’ booth. Jon Sciambi and Len Kasper are great examples of guys who can infuse advanced knowledge without coming off as esoteric. You can use slash lines and stuff to make the narrative with the knowledge from the deeper stuff without mentioning FIP, etc. by name.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I always refer back to this article.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 9, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah that nails it.
I don’t care to hear about WAR. I see enough of it. Just some willingness to be liberal.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Great article
Boog is good people. Glad to see he wants to move the craft forward.
by Expatriate in Tampa on Sep 9, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it no surprise that he and KK had a baseball show on XM?
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
if you used skip and cookie as your words for a drinking game during that show...
you would have killed yourself due to alcohol poisoning before the end of the first hour
by Jason Collette on Sep 9, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
well said--very true
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
worst 4 hours in the history of radio
they’re on different shows now, but back to back in the morning. I can’t even get on that channel for an interview because I am not a credentialed MLB writer. I can get on the fantasy channel all day long but 175 only wants Topkin or Henderson to talk Rays, period.
by Jason Collette on Sep 9, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
i stopped listening when HS got on Sirius
but i listened quite a bit when they first came on
There was a morning show with Buck Martinez, some Patrick guy and the Latin player who went to ESPN played for Rays and Marlins
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
That was Buck, Mark Patrick, and Orestes Destrade
Before O, it was Larry Bowa and the show was awesome as hell. Once Bowa left, the show fell apart because Buck and Patrick’s interactions were not as smooth.
BTW, Patrick is the father of the Nationals’ Drew Storen
by Jason Collette on Sep 9, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
there you go
Patrick was good, but my God did he kiss Buck’s ass when MLB made him the skipper of the 1st WBC games or what?
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
The 3 headed approach was great...
it had 2 former MLB players and a guy very much into baseball because of his son. Once they took Bowa away, it became more like 2 dads sitting around talking baseball, family, and crap. I’d still listen to it over Dan Sileo on the local AM radio, but that isn’t saying much.
by Jason Collette on Sep 9, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't take this the wrong way, but
This one, and an earlier comment about credentials, make you sound whiny. You’re better than that. Or at least you ought to be.
by Expatriate in Tampa on Sep 9, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Do explain - I'm missing your point
My point is people should be judged based on their body of work, not their membership. I get irked when the non-traditional work gets shunned for what I perceive to be lower-quality credentialed work (at times). If that is whining, so be it. I just have a higher standard for what I want to see in coverage for this club and that’s what drew me to this site (and to create my own) in the first place.
by Jason Collette on Sep 9, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Life is not a meritocracy
Even though one can argue that it should be.
But when you write about how they get a press pass and you don’t, or they get radio gigs on certain stations and you don’t, it just sounds like whining.
Yes, they enjoy perks that they do not deserve on merit. This is something that should be called out, loudly and often.
You do not receive those same perks and you believe you deserve them based on merit. You may be right, but it comes off as whiny and a little bit conceited (“I’m so much better than them….”). That almost never plays well.
Just my 2c….
by Expatriate in Tampa on Sep 9, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
That's better
I’m not upset about not getting a press pass as much as watching a paper write 1 story in an entire season about a 1st place team and then request a press pass simply because they’re entitled to one.
I would like non-traditional media types to get the same chance to earn those credentials in more places than just here (where Tommy and Erik got them in 08) or Texas where Jamey Newberg is embraced, or Seattle where Lookout Landing is embraced.
For me, it comes down to what you produce and not the piece of paper hanging on your wall. It should be an open access application system and membership should be reviewed, annually.
I think that both traditional and non-traditional journalist can learn from each other but as long as the popular opinion to separate them as much as possible, that integration is not going to happen any time soon.
by Jason Collette on Sep 9, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow.
With that attitude, it’s no wonder players and “bloggers” have developed something of an adversarial relationship.
by Expatriate in Tampa on Sep 9, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Most education daily Rays piece for my money...
is the Andy/Dave Cup o’ Joe interview during radio pregame. Maddon is the best teacher out there when it comes to everything we’re talking about. Dave/Andy do a good job of asking questions without getting too technical.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
That's just it
It should be so easy for a Rays reporter to think and report outside the box, considering how the team is so clearly operating that way. I think this goes some way to explaining why Maddon can be so vilified by fans despite the success of the team. As long as no one in media bothers to report exactly how and why Maddon thinks the way he does, people will continue to believe the team is winning in spite of his managing.
I like pie
I would say that there is some edcuating going on...
we don’t hear nearly as much bitching about “pitch count” as we used to.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
Thats the thing
Maddon does a lot of things people are not accustom to seeing and he’s very willing to talk about it. Unfortunately, the people with the access don’t seem to use this resource enough. I don’t mean ask him if he uses WAR or FIP, but say hey can you tell us why you did xyz today? I’m glad Andy and Dave at least try.
www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Sep 9, 2010 11:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think you're right.
But, be careful what you ask for… Maddon not only uses WAR or FIP, he uses his “gut” quite a bit.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
I think he says "gut" because people don't want to hear the statistical reasoning behind it
by Jason Collette on Sep 9, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Some of the info is proprietary.
Couldn’t discuss it if he wanted to.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
You mean, like a trade secret?
They don’t want anyone else to know what they’re doing?
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
That, but they have data and technology that few others have.
Click, Neander, etc. are on that next level stuff.
Their staff is ridiculous too. Lots of good minds that never get attention.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
If they're trying to keep it a secret...
I guess they’ll never get attention and the beat writers won’t write about it. Right?
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
You aren't this dense.
Nobody expects Topkin to understand the Rays’ swing plane analysis.
ESPN uses FIP and xFIP a lot now. Most of these local guys probably don’t know where to find it.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
And really.
If it’s good enough for ESPN and the Wall Street Journal, isn’t it good enough for the St. Pete Times?
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Those of the kinds of questions you'll get from
people trying to learn more about advanced statistics. The manager says he does something because of “his gut” and I’m told that the statistical reasoning behind it is proprietary. The masses are going to want to know what is proprietary and why it’s proprietary.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
For example,
I know nothing of swing plane analysis except when Maddon says he likes so and so’s swing versus this pitcher.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
Really?
Baseball is a business. The Rays make money by being smarter than other teams. Therefore, it’s they have to hold as much of the information as possible to themselves.
Even if you just treat it as a sport, why would teams go around giving away their information, which is the ultimate advantage over other teams when it comes to talent evaluation?
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand that completely...
and I agree. I don’t think the Rays should go blabbing about their process.
But, if you’re wondering why fans of a team with such advanced processes don’t understand it… we can just as easily blame the Rays themselves as the beat writers.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
Disagree completely.
Their process isn’t hard to get at all. What goes into the process might be esoteric at parts, but the gist of the process is just good business practice.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't find too many advanced statistics
on yesterday’s pregame notes.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
I can find the basic premise of the team's philosophy right here
After someone asked — imagine that!
AF: Absolutely. We seek value in everything that we do. It’s imperative to do so if we’re going to have success in the division that we play in. It’s a fact of life that our resources will always be less than that of the teams we compete against. Money isn’t an advantage we own. Knowing that, what is important is to make sure we’re not too rigid in our thought process. As people are zigging, we need to zag. As people are zagging, we need to zig. Since we do not possess the buying power other teams have, we can’t simply do what the other teams do and expect to have success.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
That's pholosphy
not numbers explaining why Maddon’s “gut” is more of a statistical analysis.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
Check the site interviews.
We’ve asked them what they think about x stat or y stat.
The publicly available stuff found on FG isn’t too far off. Use FIP, use xFIP, use wOBA, and you should be able to keep up.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Read James Click. Read Peter Bendix.
Read the other former writers in the FO. Just about anything you need to know about how they analyze players is out there. The numbers might not match up 100%, but the thought process is almost identical.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
And here.
Andrew Friedman: I feel like our decision-making process and our infrastructure have improved dramatically. That said, my hope is that, in another three years, we’re significantly better than we are now. We’re always looking to test and incorporate new ideas. Given our constraints, we can’t abide by conventions and expect to maintain a competitive team and organization. It’s a challenge we embrace, and the challenge is becoming steeper each year as revenue disparities increase. From the get-go, we have guided ourselves by the principle that information is king. We still believe that, but we’re looking at slightly different information now than we were three years ago. We also came in knowing that we don’t have all the answers, nor will we ever.
There’s always room for improvement. It’s an ongoing quest to refine our processes and methodologies that instruct how we go about making decisions. It’s like making improvements to your house. You add some new paint and artwork to one room and then you notice that the next room, which was perfectly fine before the improvements, can use a little work. Next thing you know, the whole house gets a facelift. We’ve been at it for a few years and we’re still working our way through our operations. I hope we never stop challenging ourselves to get better.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
In the same interview
Friedman calls fielding percentage garbage (basically). Buy Baseball Between the Numbers, it’s a bit old, but Click kills many of the traditional stats that Topkin uses.
Read Bendix in the BTB archives.
Seriously. It’s out there. We’ve found a way to keep up.
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
books
I keep Between the Numbers and The Book right on my work desk at my house because I still go to them quite often.
by Jason Collette on Sep 9, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
You've inspired me, RJ
I still think there’s a fine line between informing the masses… and getting too dry with some of the real advanced stuff. But, either way, I’m inspired.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
This from Topkin's most recent live chat:
On Joe Maddon and his line-ups:
“He looks at many things, some he shares, some that are major company secrets. From what we know of, he considers the “split” stats of the pitcher and the hitters (ie, what lefties do vs. lefties, righties vs. lefties, etc) and recent trends. But there are also much more complicated numbers that come from the guys upstairs he factors in as well, such as which hitters might do better against that specific pitcher. And, no, they won’t share."
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 9, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
When prompted by a direct, focused question from me....
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 9, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
That's fine too
Even if Maddon wasn’t a fan of advanced metrics, i’d still be interested into what goes into his decision making.
www.draysbay.com, www.bloombergsports.mlblogs.com, Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Sep 9, 2010 12:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
.
DL: Why is Joe Maddon a good manager?
AF: One of Joe’s biggest strengths is his ability to relate to each player on the team. He appreciates that there are 25 players with 25 personalities, and he approaches each one of them personally. He gets to know them, he cares about them, and he is very good at motivating them and getting the most out of them performance-wise. These relationships, and the ones he encourages them to form with each other, provide the foundation for our clubhouse chemistry.
He is a student of the game who isn’t afraid to try new things. One of Joe’s pet phrases is “Tell me what you think, not what you’ve heard.” It is something he employs in his life, and he challenges every person in the clubhouse to approach the game the same way. .
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8935
by R.J. Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't get that impression listening to him. He's pretty open
about using statistical reason. He may not say “what” stat he’s using, but he’ll say “we looked at the way so-so has fared againt so-so and we decided to play him.”
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
Buster Olney's story on Jaso today (behind Insider wall)
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5549694
I think it’s a great example of what Hahmann and everyone here is getting at.
The traditional, shallow analysis of Jaso as a leadoff hitter is, “Why the hell are they leading off with a catcher, they have Upton and Crawford, blah blah blah.” The only statistic he mentions is Jaso’s OBP against righties, but he quotes Jaso and Friedman in explaining why he’s batting leadoff. He also makes mention of Jaso’s excellent baserunning, which is known to anyone who regularly watches Rays broadcasts but probably not to anyone else.
I like pie
I really don't think so
Many of those i speak with feel the Rays are doing well in spite of not because of Maddon
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
You talk to Steve Duemig?
I'll have a bloody mary and a steak sandwich...and a steak sandwich.
by Passionate Apathy on Sep 9, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
He admits that much of what he says is because he has 4 hours to fill
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
True. There is an element of that.
However, as much as he repeats that he likes him as a person, he seems to get pretty aggravated over some of the moves he makes. Even if he is playing devil’s advocate, his flock will agree with him at face value and that certainly doesn’t endear his audience to the organization.
From RJ’s initial question, keeping the consumers dumb (in this example) results in a negative perception of the team because they aren’t doing things “the right way”.
I'll have a bloody mary and a steak sandwich...and a steak sandwich.
by Passionate Apathy on Sep 9, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
It's hard to convince someone to buy a ticket when the other side of your mouth is annihilating every move the team makes.
i'll tweet that prick right now
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 21, 2010 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn't imagine it affects things one way or another.
The younger crowd is going to be into the statistics, while the older more traditional crowd isn’t. That’s about as simple as it comes. I imagine a lot of people aren’t interested in saber stuff, which is absolutely ok. Some people just like watching baseball. There are enough writers/bloggers out there who do plenty of interesting stuff with advanced statistics (no matter the sport). The people who want to know about that stuff will seek it out and that will make them happy.
Not necessarily.
I believe that a basic understanding of stats beyond ERA and BA would help the “peripheral” fanbase understand how the RFO determines the value of a particular player. I would hope the result would be more advocacy for roster moves and a better understanding of how the team can maximize the team’s financial value with fewer resources than NYY and BOS.
I'll have a bloody mary and a steak sandwich...and a steak sandwich.
by Passionate Apathy on Sep 9, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I can think of ways in which media might benefit
But I’m not sure how the team would benefit from uninformed fans. Maybe it’s just my own personal bias, but I think the Rays become much more fun to root for the more you know about them.
I like pie

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