Manny or Vlad?

by baseball5 on Jan 16, 2011 3:56 PM EST

I'll start this by saying I think Vladimir Guerrero would be a better fit as the Rays DH than Manny Ramirez. Then I will give a write up on my opinions on each of these players.

Vladimir Guerrero - Vlad has been a great hitter for a long time. Everybody knows how good he is as a hitter. I have also heard that he is a good clubhouse presence and is a good influence on younger players. Vlad is a big guy with good power who was the cleanup hitter on last year's American League Champion Rangers. I think he would fit right into the Rays lineup as protection for Evan Longoria. Although he is a free swinger, that is only because he can hit pitches that most hitters can't. He has long arms which give him excellent plate coverage. He drives in runs with not many strikeouts which means even when he doesn't get on he puts the ball in play. He only swings at bad pitches because he is able to hit them.

Manny Ramirez - Manny, like Vlad is also a future Hall of Famer. He is one of the best hitters this game has ever seen. However, over the last couple of years he has been injury prone, high maintenence, and has seen a decline in power. Manny has a reputation for being lazy and a bad influence on younger players. On the Rays whose team is mostly made up of younger players, the Rays need someone who can provide leadership and plays the game the right way. Manny can still hit and takes walks but that comes with a lot of strikeouts. If they come with diminishing power, you have to question how productive he will be, assuming he'll stay healthy.

In my opinion, Vlad is the better option. I don't like all of the antics that come with Manny. For a young team, I would rather have Vlad. I wouldn't want the younger players to follow Manny. Also, I believe they may provide similar productivity, I would still pick Vlad over Manny as the Rays' DH. I'm curious who would you pick:

Poll

Vlad or Manny as the Rays' DH?

Manny

30 votes

Vlad

61 votes

91 votes | Poll has closed

This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.

Tweet Comment 62 comments | 0 recs |

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Comments

"the Rays need someone who can provide leadership and plays the game the right way"

Oh geez

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Jan 16, 2011 4:12 PM EST reply actions

what?

by baseball5 on Jan 16, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions

It's fucking stupid

Hell yeah it is.
Any amount of points can be scored week to week. well, besides 1 point. Any number is as likely to be reached as another, since there’s only one of each number, each has the same chance to be hit. IT’s how the syetemof averages works.
by waltermercier on Sep 21, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 17, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs

mannys generally regarded as one of the smartest and hardest working hitters ever.....

seems like a guy worth having around….especially on a young team. Im a Royals fan, and I’d have killed to have Manny there hoping he can rub off on Billy Butler.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 17, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions

I voted Manny

But I really don’t care as long as we get one of them.

by BaconBits on Jan 16, 2011 4:28 PM EST reply actions

This

I voted for Vlad since I find them pretty even and I think Vlad will be cheaper but as long as we get one of them and not just sign a Branyan/Glaus type for DH

Under construction

by joeybw on Jan 16, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions

Double This

Make your pick Andrew. Higher ceiling or higher floor. Or go with whichever of the 2 is cheaper, that’s fine too.

Let’s just get one of these two men. No DH platoon please.

Love,

Guy Whohasnobusinesstellingandrewwhattodo

by generaltso on Jan 16, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions

Triple

by nomoredevil on Jan 16, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions

My irony meter just exploded.

by mattc286 on Jan 17, 2011 8:53 PM EST up reply actions

Can you provide a stat that proves Manny will lower Joyce's ISO?

These men are just that, men. At 20+ years of age, if you cant do your job, even with a “bad influence,” then I think you’re the problem, and don’t deserve the $400,000.

Antics? I don’t know about everyone else here, but I would love to see Manny sport a Brayser, or dress up as a giant douche, or what is a condom? Cork, can you confirm this for me.

by ballsdeep187 on Jan 16, 2011 4:58 PM EST reply actions

I'm pretty sure Reid Brignac dressed up as a douche last year for halloween

by benderbrodriguez on Jan 16, 2011 6:39 PM EST up reply actions

I am curious.

Can you provide one substantiated instance when Manny has been a bad influence on a young player? In fact, can you identify one young player who you would even speculate was influenced negatively by Manny?

And given Manny’s reputation as a fanatic about working on his craft, exactly what sort of bad influence has he been?

I’ll give you a head start. Let’s call 26 years as the upper boundary for a “young” player. Here are some players who joined Manny’s team at that age or younger:

Kevin Youklis, Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, Jonathan Papelbon, Dustin Pedroia, Clay Buchholz, Russell Martin, Blake DeWitt, Matt Kemp, Andre Ethier, Chad Billingsley, Clayton Kershaw, Jonathan Broxton.

There are plenty of others, some who did not succeed. And some, like Kemp, have been criticized for supposed character flaws. But is there evidence that Manny was to blame in any way, especially given that some of these players (like Kemp) had their best years while he was there?

I am mystified by the claim that he is dangerous to have around young players.

by bobr on Jan 16, 2011 5:29 PM EST reply actions 3 recs

Manny strikes out more, sure, but you do realize they drove in the same percentage of base runners last year, right?

So, no, Vlad isn’t necessarily better at driving in runs. Further, Vlad hits into far more double plays (19% of the time, versus Manny’s 10%) which is worse than a strikeout.

You’re also ignoring something far more important than character concerns and that’s health concerns.

I’m fine with Vlad if he’s cheaper and the meds are clean, but acting like he is a better player than Vlad is being dishonest. He might be the better fit due to other circumstances, but he is not the better player.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 16, 2011 5:37 PM EST reply actions

...

I’m fine with Vlad if he’s cheaper and the meds are clean, but acting like he is a better player than ~~Vlad~~ is being dishonest

You mean Manny?

Jay's favorite line: "Dog, in due time"
Now he look at me, like "Damn, dog, you where I am"
A hip hop legend.
I think I died in an accident, cause this must be heaven.

by 4QB on Jan 17, 2011 12:16 AM EST up reply actions

Yes.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 17, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions

K

Jay's favorite line: "Dog, in due time"
Now he look at me, like "Damn, dog, you where I am"
A hip hop legend.
I think I died in an accident, cause this must be heaven.

by 4QB on Jan 17, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions

Vlad would be the first true DH in a long time

Has good splits, has gotten more comfortable in the role(over the last 1 1/2 seasons), should be able to maintain his health better as a result as well. He seems to be a Maddon type of player, while Manny’s baggage(there can be no argument here), minimal full time exposure as a DHand increasing injuries is a gamble I don’t think AF makes. Paired behind Longoria gives nice protection for him. Then sign Glaus or Thames to platoon at first or Thames to platoon with Joyce in LF. Although I can just as easily see Damon being signed to DH and Glaus/Thames to platoon at first/LF.

by budman3 on Jan 16, 2011 6:25 PM EST reply actions

Maddon also knows Vlad

It isn’t up to him but he may be giving Friedman a little push to go after Vlad and Glaus over the other options.

Under construction

by joeybw on Jan 16, 2011 6:43 PM EST up reply actions

I think there can be lots of argument over Manny's "baggage".

I am not denying there is a lot of publicity about Manny’s character, nor am I denying that he may indeed bring a lot of baggage. I am simply saying that claiming that issue is real rather than manufactured is not proven. Nor is it clear that he would have problems in TB. I can think of many ball players who were supposed to carry all sorts of baggage but either didn’t or didn’t to the extent or in the way imagined, and who would be assets to any team that hired them.

I am not saying this to support Manny over Vlad. I think there are strong arguments for either. I do not think that speculations about Manny’s baggage or character should be particularly meaningful in making a decision.

by bobr on Jan 16, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

I assure you, it is to the Rays FO

by budman3 on Jan 16, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions

Yes, the Front Office

does care about character. What you (nor I) do not know is what they think of Manny’s character or how they think it would mesh with the team.

by bobr on Jan 16, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions

That's what fans do

But regardless of Manny’s numbers, do you really think that Rays management see’s Manny as a guy who fit’s “the Rays way”? A guy who comes ready to play everyday, is likely to be able to keep himself in the best shape to be able to produce, a guy who can remain loyal to the team all season long and a guy with high character? This is a guy who will sit around the entire game just to get 4-5 AB’s a game. Do you think the FO see him as a player standing by Maddon’s side all game talking baseball? For a guy who’s had numerable leg issues, will Rays management be worried about busting plays out and pulling his calf or groin or not hustling out of fear of that happening? And what might they be thinking if the season doesn’t go well and Manny gets bored or tired of playing before 15,000 fans a game? Or do they think that the chance that Manny can remain happy, productive and being a leader all season will outweigh those possibilities and they are willing to take that chance. Or that they think that Joe Maddon wants to pile the zen on with him and worry about coddling him all season? If it comes down to a decision between Manny and Vlad or an other DH option that doesn’t raise these concerns, does the questions that Manny bring come into play in their choice? Or do they feel the production he put up three years ago when he was younger and healthier is worth a 5 million dollars risk? You are right, I don’t know what the FO is thinking. But I certainly know what they have to consider.

by budman3 on Jan 16, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions

Considering Manny does all these things, I don't understand your arugment.

The “Manny quit on Boston” thing is the biggest joke of all time. Go look up his numbers during the stretch when he was supposedly acting out. Maybe he was annoying, but he was still helping them win games.

And again, by all accounts, Manny is one of the hardest working baseball players in the game. You don’t hit fantastically well into your thirties if you’re not a training nut.

by Suttree on Jan 16, 2011 9:07 PM EST up reply actions

Manny will be 39 and hasn't played more than 104 games in three years

That should be the biggest concern for AF when he decides who to spend 5 million dollars on.

by budman3 on Jan 16, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions

Yes, that is the only reasonable point you made in your entire argument.

Keep in mind, he missed 50 games last year due to a suspension, not injury.

So, if in three years he’s missed 54 games due to injury.. that’s 9 games a season.

by Suttree on Jan 17, 2011 8:52 AM EST up reply actions

sorry, ignore the end of this post.

Manny may miss some games due to injury, yes. He will have the benefit of DHing with the Rays, however, instead of playing the outfield like he did in Boston and LA.

by Suttree on Jan 17, 2011 8:54 AM EST up reply actions

And why was he suspended?

I brought up the missed games. You pointed out his character.

by budman3 on Jan 17, 2011 9:27 AM EST up reply actions

I mentioned character issues

Thank you for bringing up his PED suspension. I’d forgotten all about that.

by budman3 on Jan 17, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions

If Manny took PED to stay healthy, he should be commended.

Attempting to stay healthy to help his team (in part by keeping Juan Pierre off the field) is a very unselfish thing.

I wish we had more players like Manny.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 17, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions

Thank you R.J.

I have been saying since the nonsense about PEDs began to obsess people that those who used them did nothing wrong, in fact if anything, were more admirable than those who eschewed them. To some extent I was exaggerating for effect, but only a bit. The character issue is to the discredit of those who condemn those who used PEDs; they are some combination of sanctimonious, hypocritical, narrow-minded, ignorant and mean spirited.

by bobr on Jan 17, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions

Lets all sing the praises of all the players who have been suspended or admitted to taking PEDS

They all should be commended and lets give bonus points for those who claimed it was to stay healthy or recover from injuries or to lose weight. Suspended players.Ronny Paulino, Edison Volquez, Neffie Perez, Juan Salas, Mike Cameron, Jay Gibbons, Manny, Guillermo Mota, Jason FGrimsley, Rafael Palmero, Rafael Betancourt, Ryan Franklin, Juan Rincon. Or the ones who admitted taking them..Armando Rios, John Rocker, Paul Byrd, A-Rod, Mark Mcquire, Jason Giambi, Benito Santiago, Gary Sheffield, Jose Canseco, and Wally Joyner. I am numb to the usage of steroids in baseball and can accept they are part of the landscape but refuse to understand that some fans can pick and choose who should be exhaled for using them and who should be chastised. Unless of course, if your stance is that it is OK for Manny because all he does is hit the ball as well as Mcquire for hitting HR’s. And that is the position one has to take then. I wonder how many here would make the statement that if it’s good for one, than it’s good for all.

by budman3 on Jan 17, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions

I've never slammed a player for usage because I really don't care if they used.

I don’t take it as a mark on their character either.

When Juan Salas got busted I didn’t chastise him. I don’t care. I just wish he would’ve used something less traceable.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 17, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions

I don’t take it as a mark on their character either.

Do you really believe that a player should do whatever it takes to improve his performance because helping their team win is all that matters?

by budman3 on Jan 17, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions

[D]o whatever it takes to improve his performance because helping their team win is all that matters

That’s why they get paid the big bucks.

by firemangreg on Jan 17, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions

It's not my place to judge.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 17, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions

Less traceable?

Why would that matter in your world? You had better hope that Manny has learned how to not get caught if he signs with the Rays.

by budman3 on Jan 17, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions

Because getting caught hurts the team?

So if you’re going to do it, use the stuff they either don’t or can’t test for.

by R.J. Anderson on Jan 17, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions

Suppose you right..

At least if AF offers him a contract, he’ll know he won’t have to pay part of the 5 million if he gets suspended.

by budman3 on Jan 17, 2011 7:00 PM EST up reply actions

You should maybe use paragraphs or better spacing.

I literally never read your posts because they look like a big giant block of words and suck.

@RealNolenBailey

by Hatfield on Jan 17, 2011 1:58 PM EST up reply actions

You're not missing much.

by Suttree on Jan 17, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions

He has no other character issues beyond the PED thing.

by Suttree on Jan 17, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions

I want Manny and his ovaries

by benderbrodriguez on Jan 16, 2011 6:36 PM EST reply actions

The pro-HCG crowd rears its head

by td32 on Jan 16, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions

Manny.

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 17, 2011 10:01 AM EST reply actions

.

http://dockoftherays.com/2011/01/07/arent-you-vlad-we-have-manny-options/

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 17, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions

How does Vlad have more votes then Manny?

Manny all the way. He is the better player. Why would you not want the better player?

Manny also brings some buzz to the Rays. I really think this area would go crazy over a ManRam signing.

by Sveet on Jan 17, 2011 11:28 AM EST reply actions

Well, for me,

the main reason why I would rather have Vladdy is because I think we have a more likely chance of seeing a Pat Burrell-esque meltdown with Manny due his quickly declining power due to age, health concerns, etc. Not saying that will happen, nor do I speak for anyone else who wants Guerrero, but I personally feel more comfortable with Vladdy than I do with Manny.

by TBRaysfan009 on Jan 17, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions

Manny in a down year, had a wOBA of .382 last season.

Vlad, in his bounce back year, had a wOBA of .360.

Vlad also doesn’t take walks anymore and it shows in his OBP, .345 and .334 the last two seasons. Manny has been above .409+ the last 3 years.

In my opinion, any perceived increase in risk because of Manny’s antics is offset by his much superior bat.

by ReyL on Jan 17, 2011 12:26 PM EST reply actions

Ok in the last few days, Balfour, Fuentes and Rauch have signed

As well as Jones and Giambi for our DH hole.

So I will repeat what I said before, I do not care which JUST SIGN ONE OF THEM ALREADY

Freidman is being super patient but the market isn’t slow, everyone is just signing with other teams.

Under construction

by joeybw on Jan 17, 2011 4:06 PM EST reply actions

There's always Chris Ray

Bring home the Tampa boy and hope he finds his arm from 2006!

by budman3 on Jan 17, 2011 4:19 PM EST reply actions

Only one problem: RIPN

(Ray In Player’s Name)

by mattc286 on Jan 17, 2011 9:04 PM EST up reply actions

Royals fan here....watching this as a casual observer....

but does it not bother anyone that Guerrero seemingly wore down in the 2nd half last year….even as a DH? I have a crazy amount of respect Friedman and what he’s done, but going with Vlad over Manny is crazy

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 17, 2011 8:40 PM EST reply actions

Agreed

by Andy Hellicksonstine on Jan 17, 2011 9:14 PM EST up reply actions

I do like Manny better, but

comparing Vlad’s second half to his first half can be misleading. He had a terrible July, improved marginally in August and then had a pretty good Sept/Oct. His OPS in those 3 months were .622, .719, .841. So did he wear down in July and then slowly get a second wind? Or if I choose different clumps of PAs, perhaps not by halves or months but by 100s of PAs or 113s of PAs or use segments like July 13-Aug12, Aug. 13-Sept 12, Sept 13-end of season, might I see a different pattern?

He wasn’t used less at the end of the year. Just using halves, he did have 65 fewer PAs in the second half, but he had more PAs in Sept/Oct than any month but May, and then only one fewer. Actually, by months his PAs were pretty close each month.

by bobr on Jan 17, 2011 11:14 PM EST up reply actions