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What Would It Take To Acquire Logan Morrison?

PITTSBURGH, PA - SEPTEMBER 09:  Logan Morrison #20 of the Florida Marlins hits a two-run home run against the Pittsburgh Pirates during the game on September 9, 2011 at PNC Park in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.  (Photo by Justin K. Aller/Getty Images)

We all know that the Rays are in the market this offseason to add an impact bat or two, if at all possible. This past season, they had one of the weakest offenses in their club's recent history, and that weakness showed through in the playoffs. But how do you add impact bats when you're working on a budget? Free agency isn't an option, so the Rays are left trying to find hitters on the trade market. 

On Sunday, Buster Olney stated in his column that he'd heard the Marlins are considering making a run at James Shields. The Marlins have a weak rotation right now, but they are only a couple good breaks away from having a great rotation. Anibal Sanchez has turned into quite the ace, and Ricky Nolasco has put up great peripherals but a poor ERA for the third-straight season. If he can solve his BABIP issues and Josh Johnson can remain healthy for once, that'd be a top-three that could stack up against almost any other team. Add James Shields to that mix and it could put the Marlins in position to make a run.

In his column, Olney goes on to mention that Logan Morrison would theoretically be the center of a Shields-Marlins trade. Morrison has long been a subject of trade speculation, as the Marlins haven't been happy with his Twitter-happy ways and general weirdness, but how much would it take to get him? Would trading Shields for Morrison be fair, or should the Rays expect to get more in return?

Star-divide

Who is Logan Morrison?

A 22nd round pick in the 2005 draft, Logan Morrison destroyed pitchers every step of the way through the Marlins' farm system. He clubbed 24 homers in 513 at bats in Single-A, and while he didn't put up lofty home run totals at any other level, his Isolated Power never dropped below the .160-.180 range. He reached the majors in 2010 at age 22, and he proceeded to rip the cover off the ball, posting a .369 wOBA over 221 at bats thanks to a .351 BABIP.

In 2011, Morrison played the whole year at the major league level. His BABIP regressed, dropping to .265, but he displayed more power than expected, hitting 23 homers and posting a .221 ISO.

Projections for 2012 aren't out yet, but it's not terribly hard to guess what they'll say about Morrison: better batting average, but less power. Morrison is probably a true-talent .260 hitter, and it seems unlikely that he will replicate his .221 ISO and 18% home run rate from 2011. That said, he'll be entering his age 24 season, so it's entirely possible that he's developing more power as he matures. And even with a slightly decreased power production, he's still a valuable hitter that reaches base at a great clip (10% walk rate).

Also, Morrison seems to be a menace on defense, as all the defensive rating systems have him well below average in the outfield.

Shields vs. Morrison: Trade Values

In Shields, the Rays hold one of the top trade chips in all of baseball. He's coming off a career year (2.82 ERA, 3.42 FIP) and under contract for three more seasons for only $28 million, so the Rays should justifiably expect to get a huge haul in return for him if they trade him.

When I estimated Shields' trade value at the trade deadline, I put his value around the $30 million mark. After updating his numbers, not much has changed: Shields is still worth around $30-40 million depending on how aggressive you are with his projections. Using the same methodology, Garza was only worth around $21 million before the Rays traded him for a massive package last offseason. 

Meanwhile, Morrison is undeniably a valuable chip. He has five more seasons of team control left -- two of them cost-controlled, and three of them with salary arbitration. Since he's so young, his trade value is really difficult to predict. How much will he get in salary arbitration? How much will he improve going forward? Even when I tried being conservative with his projections, though, I still calculated his trade value as around $40 million.

The Morrison-Joyce Comparison

Despite what the trade values say, I don't entirely buy that trading Morrison for Shields straight up would be a good deal for the Rays. The reason why? Morrison reminds me another hitter the Rays traded for a few years ago: Matt Joyce.

In his age 23 season, Matt Joyce hit 12 homers in 277 plate appearances (.240 ISO) and posted a .355 wOBA. He had a walk rate similar to Morrison's (around 10-11%), and he struck out just a tad more. The Rays ended up acquiring him for Edwin Jackson, and we all know how Joyce has progressed since then. He's a powerful hitter and one the Rays' best offensive weapons.

Meanwhile, in his age 23 season, Logan Morrison hit 23 home runs in 525 plate appearances (.221 ISO) and posted a .344 wOBA. Even if you don't expect his power to regress going forward, his hitting profile looks very similar to Matt Joyce: above-average power (.200-ish ISO) and plate discipline (10% walk rate) from the left-hand side. Joyce strikes out a tad more often, but he also runs the bases better and plays better defense.

While Morrison doesn't have nearly as large a platoon split as Joyce, he did perform worse against lefties this season than righties: .320 wOBA vs. L; .355 wOBA vs. R. The difference is almost entirely a result of his power production, as his ISO dropped to .158 against lefties. Even if you include his 2010 season as well, this difference holds; his overall line against lefties was buoyed by a high BABIP, but his power production suffered against lefties.

So Morrison looks to me like a similar hitter to Joyce, albeit with a smaller platoon split and slightly less power. Morrison also struggles in the field and would likely be moved to first base for the Rays, and we have no idea how he'd perform at the position (or in the AL East, for that matter). He would certainly make a fine centerpiece to a trade, but if the Rays are going to trade Shields, I'd hope and expect them to get back more in return as well.

The Rays managed to parlay Edwin Jackson into Matt Joyce, so is it too optimistic to think they could possibly turn Wade Davis or Jeff Niemann into Logan Morrison? Probably, yeah. But I wouldn't put it past Andrew Friedman to give it a shot.

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Apr 2012 from Red Reporter - 5 comments

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Shields for LoMo and Yelich

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Oct 24, 2011 10:58 AM EDT reply actions  

Only if LoMo never touches the OF.

Give him a first-baseman’s glove and call it a day.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Oct 24, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm still not sure I like that deal.

I don’t see the Marlins as a good fit for a trade involving Shields.

by jcmitchell on Oct 24, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lomo can play first he did it during his time in AA and wasn’t bad at all, and wasn’t until he started playing for the Marlins he played mostly outfield. Hitting wise he might be similar to Joyce, but fielding wise he can play more positions which makes worth more I think.

by amyd2416 on Oct 24, 2011 11:38 AM EDT reply actions  

It's one thing to play multiple positions, but it's another to play them well.

Joyce can theoretically play 1B too and he’s better in the outfield, so I don’t think the logic necessarily holds there.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Oct 24, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Any notes about arm strength? Below average, average?

I’ve always thought Joyce had a decent arm in the outfield.

As badly as I want someone like LoMo or Alonso added to the roster, I just don’t see the off-season finishing that way,

You heard it from me.

by multiple sources on Oct 24, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not really sure about LoMo's arm strength. It looks average-ish if you trust the stats.

I’m more concerned with his range. That seems to be his big problems in the OF.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Oct 24, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

As I said,

I think it very unlikely he would ever play the OF for the Rays.

by bobr on Oct 24, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Morrison played 1B in the minors

pretty much exclusively at every level. He played 2 of 76 games in LF in 2009 and 19 of 68 there in 2010. He was moved to LF so the Marlins could get both him and Sanchez into the lineup.

I don’t know what his defensive reputation is at 1B, but I think he is at least adequate. I cannot imagine the Rays would use him in the OF.

His major league BB% is 11.7%, albeit it was just 10.3% in 2011 (14.3% in 2010 in a bit more than 1/2 the PAs).

I like Morrison very much, but think Shields is worth more right now. I think Sandy’s calculations are meaningful but I tend towards Steve’s argument. I would prefer it if the Rays dealt either Niemann or Davis plus a prospect for Morrison than if they dealt Shields for Morrison plus a prospect.

The only interesting hitting prospect for the Rays in the Marlins system is Yelich who had a nice year in low A ball. He walked about 10.7% of his PAs and struck out 22% of his ABs while showing pretty good power (15 HRs, 32 Doubles) and excellent base stealing (32 of 37) as a 19 year old. But he is pretty far away from the majors.

by bobr on Oct 24, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd be more willing to do an Upton/Niemann for LoMo/Yelich trade.

Not sure who says no but I don’t feel the Marlins are a good fit in a trade for Shields. They need a CF and SP but LoMo, alone, may not be enough for us to give up both.

by jcmitchell on Oct 24, 2011 11:47 AM EDT reply actions  

I'd think we'd have to throw something else in for this deal to make sense. Using Sky's trade calculator I'm getting Shields having a Surplus value of

$27.9M at WAR Values of (4.5, 4.1, 3.6) which seem totally plausible as he’ll be 32 in the last year of his current deal which does get pretty expensive. The most conservative I could go on Morrison (2.5, 2.9, 3.3, 3.8, 4.4, 15% increase off the base 2.5 year) yielded a surplus of $44.1M because of the two essentially free years and then continued progress through the upswing of his prime. That’s already a $16M gap in surplus while I don’t think it’s crazy to expect Morrison to exceed those numbers.

For instance, let’s say he slides over to 1B and is a -5 defender over there (this assumes that the league avg. wOBA is closer to .320 than .330) then he would need to wOBA around .350 to be worth 2.5 WAR over 650 PA. Well he did that last year amid all kinds of distractions. To get to that last year of 4.4 WAR he would have to wOBA around .383. I would think that one year over the next 5 he would be able to do something similar if not better. Both of these figure him at worth a run in baserunning. If he could be a league average defensive 1B (and he’s an athletic guy so if he isn’t one to start perhaps he molds into league avg or better) then you’re talking he only needs to have a wOBA of .342 to be worth 2.5 WAR.

Shields has the ability to anchor a rotation as a 1A type starter, but you’re paying him to be an ace for the last two years of that contract while Morrison is ready to give league average production or better while still being essentially free for two years. I’m guilty of short-selling Morrison or not thinking that he’s worth the attention, but because of the years of control involved he doesn’t even really need to turn into a superstar for this to be a good deal. If the Marlins were willing to go between $15-20M in trade surplus to do a straight Morrison-for-Shields trade then I think I’d be all over it. Add in that there’s friction on their side and depth on ours and I think this turns into a no-brainer.

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 24, 2011 11:57 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, those numbers mirror what I found too...linked to the workbook in the piece.

I think it puts into perspective how good Morrison is and how a 1-for-1 would be more even than you think, but I don’t buy his calculated trade value in this case. A top 1-10 hitting prospect like Mike Trout comes in at $37 million surplus, and there’s no team in baseball that’d trade Trout for Morrison straight up. And Shields is one of the best trade chips in baseball (according to the FanGraphs list, but I don’t think anyone disagrees with that), so he’d better bring back more total value than Garza did.

That’s why I included the player comp, since I think it helps puts Morrison in a better perspective and sheds more light on what he’d likely bring in a trade. Shields is going to be one of the best pitchers available on the trade market this season, so I don’t see the Rays settling on a 1-for-1 for Morrison.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Oct 24, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or to put it another way, the trade value calculator is a really useful tool, but it's by no means 100% accurate in every case.

It’s a useful guide, and it shows us here that Shields and LoMo are closer than you think. But is LoMo a more valuable trade chip than Shields? Would LoMo garner more on the trade market than Shields? That doesn’t pass the sniff test.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Oct 24, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

The point of the Trade Value Calculator is to appropriately weight guys that are in different aspects of their careers by putting dollars and years on an even playing field

You’re really under-valuing that Shields will be making 21M over the last two years of that deal so he needs to pitch at a high level to make bringing him in worthwhile, especially to a franchise run by misers. My bigger beef is the idea that a guy gets 40% of his WAR in arb1 and so on. I think at the least the calculation should kick in the following year, but you can even see below that arb3 for a slightly above average Morrison is still around $10M. I don’t see that happening.

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 24, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you're sticking to the fact that Morrison is more valuable than Trout?

Or Jesus Montero? Or [insert top 10 hitting prospect]?

He’s a heck of a valuable player, yeah. But in this case, I think the trade value calculator overestimates the market for average-ish players early in their career. Yes, he’s a valuable get, but that doesn’t mean the Rays couldn’t/shouldn’t ask for more in this case.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Oct 24, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can have beef about how Victor Wang values prospects all you want. They should always ask for more, but this is looking at a vacuum, not what he will actually go for once multiple teams get into a bidding war.

It’s an even trade if Morrison is an average player going forward. If he busts out at all and turns into a 3.5-4 WAR player over a couple of those years then it’s well worth it. You’re also freeing up money today that you didn’t have and allocating it into the future when it’s possible more revenue streams are available. Can you imagine what Friedman could do with an extra 6.5M this year or $8.5M next year? I really don’t think you’re grasping the monies involved here and the fact that Shields had a career year.

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 24, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

There we go...there's the difference.

I’m not looking at this in a vacuum. I included that part to provide perspective, but I think only going that deep is misleading. The Rays shouldn’t evaluate trades in a vacuum…you always have to consider the market.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Oct 24, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Marlins have all the leverage if the Rays absolutely want Morrison making the Rays more likely to get hosed in any sort of deal

I think this gave me an appreciation for Morrison I didn’t previously have so I thank you for getting me to do some legwork. As a team, I think the Rays could use another average to above bat rather than a good pitcher, especially if it allows the team some wiggle room to make other moves. I guess one part that you’re leaving out is that if we’re assuming it’s a 1-for-1 trade then you’re talking about two ultimate options. Would you rather have Shields or LoMo and $6.5M?

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 24, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

all the leverage?

Rays do not have to trade Shields or any of their pitchers. Best yet, the Rays have the best pitcher available via trade, or at worst, second best (if Oakland actually considers trading Gio Gonzalez).

Good, and very good pitching is a rare commodity. You don’t trade that for an average bat, with the possibility of being above average. Especially when you offer solid cost-control in return.

There are at least a few other 1B options out there. How many other above average SP are out there…unless you are willing to spend over $15-20 million a season for one?

I like the idea of acquiring LoMo. And maybe I’m just greedy. If we can trade any of Davis/Niemann and perhaps Upton for LoMo, then I’d say do it. It would be sweet if we can upgrade offense while still having a top four of Price-Shields-Helly-Moore for next year. A Shields trade is inevitable. I just hope it isn’t this year…although the best return is probably this off-season.

by raysfaninminnesota on Oct 25, 2011 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

How many of the Alonso, Blanks, Parmelee, Mesoraco, Grandal, etc... class will turn into average or better MLB players? How many will carry that distinction as early as 2012?

You know that, at worst, this guy would be an average 1B in MLB. You cannot say that about all the other players that have not proven anything at MLB. Maybe they have a higher upside, which I’m not so sure on, but they all most certainly have a lower floor. I do agree that the Rays do not have to trade Shields, but that is what it’s going to take to acquire this player. Keep in mind that LoMo was also a top-20 prospect at the end of his minor league career and he’s actually made good on that promise. I like to think of it as an 80-20. We can be 80% confident that we know what you’d be getting with LoMo, while we could only really be about 20% confident that we would know what we’re getting with guys that haven’t proven that they are everyday MLB players, yet.

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 25, 2011 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

i know everyone says shields had a career year and he wont be able to replicate it, but he really changed his mechanics and its definitely noticeable.

He also developed that sweet pick off move. Why cant he keep this up? as long as he keeps doin what he did last offseason i think hell be able to replicate it or at least come close.

by TBchillin' on Oct 24, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no confidence in pitcher durability, it's a blind spot for sure

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 24, 2011 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no confidence in mechanical changes being meaningful.

I see a 3.29 SIERA, which is a career best, but not hugely better than a career 3.69 SIERA.

Shields is what he his, a very, very good pitcher, who will still be very good, but probably never as good as he was this year again, either in ERA (2.82) or in the numbers that better represent true talent.

by Whelk on Oct 25, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

To visualize this a bit better, here's the Trade Value Calculator that looks at surplus

You can say that you think Shields will see something like a 4.5/4.3/4.1 WAR decline, but that doesn’t move the needle all that much as there’s still roughly $13M separating the players. Here’s some estimates of what Morrison would have to hit to reach certain WAR figures:

He can earn himself some free wins by showing that his defense is league average or better. Not being horrible at defense takes a lot of pressure off the bat.

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 24, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

For this to be a breakeven you'd have to think that Shields would have season of:

4.5/4.1/3.8 and Morrison would have to have seasons of:
1.6/1.8/2.1/2.4/2.8

Basically, with what is owed to Shields we should be happy if we get an average baseball player for 5 years and if he’s anything north of that it’s quite the steal.

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 24, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

And here's what that would look like

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 24, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

What?

We’d be able to trade Shields for an average baseball player for 5 years?

Also, this doesn’t make much sense. In the “keep Shields” line we are freeing up money in year 4 or 5. If we allocate that properly, we should recover quite a bit of the WAR projected to Morrison.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on Oct 24, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm talking floor of an average 1B

What bothers me about prospect talk is that most don’t acknowledge the downside of what if a guy doesn’t translate. We can be certain at something like a 90% level that Morrison is going to be a league average hitter or better since he’s at least shown it at the MLB level. You can’t say that about other prospect names that have been bandied about. There is a cost for gaining that near certainty vs. dreaming on upside with prospects that you think might be better, but may take years to translate if ever.

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 24, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well we can get an idea through his two partial seasons

2010 he had a slash of: .283/.390/.447 wOBA of .369
2011 he had a slash of .247/.330/.468 wOBA of .344

.275/.365/.455 could be a pretty regular year with BABIP driving everything up or down accordingly. You still get that ISO of about .180 which is consistent with his minor league career and shows a nice balance between his two seasons thus far. That slash with average defense at 1B sees him getting around 3.2 WAR. It looks like he had a foot injury early last year and then got yanked around quite a bit while possibly getting disinterested.

If he hits like 2010 then he’s worth 3.8 WAR over 650 PA at 1B, while 2011 was only worth 2.2 WAR if he had been at 1B for 650 PA. If 2 WAR is your downside, then that’s a pretty good player to have locked up for half a decade

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 24, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right that LoMo and Lawrie have similar value.

Where I think you miss the mark is comparing Marcum and Shields. Shields is a much better pitcher than Marcum was at his trade and I would also think his value in the market is also much, much higher. We need more than just Morrison in any trade for Shields.

by ReyL on Oct 24, 2011 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

They have a similar FIP, it's just that Shields threw nearly 50 (25%) more innings than Marcum. Additionally, it's apples to oranges because we know that Shields will make

$28M over his 3 years of control while Marcum was arb eligible but settled for around $4M this year and will probably get around $6M this year. So if you’re the Brewers you’re expecting maybe 6.5 WAR over two years for $10M. That yields a surplus of $19.9M. As we said yesterday you can expect Shields to have around $27M in surplus over the next three that breaks out to about 4 WAR at $2.3M dollars per win per year. With Marcum you’re buying about 3.3 WAR per year at a cost of $1.5M per win per year.

I think teams have seen guys like Burnett and Lackey turn 30 and what that’s done after a lot of spent bullets over a number of years. A guy coming off a career year that just threw more innings than he’s ever done by a fairly wide margin that is owed $12M in three years isn’t quite the catch that fans here think he is. I will say that he carries much more value now than he will in a year when he’s owed $21M over 2 years. If you’re going to trade him, now is the time and hope that some team overvalues him to the point that it makes sense to offer him up.

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 25, 2011 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think Marcum compares more to Niemann than Shields.

At the time of the trade, Marcum’s career FIP was 4.3, Niemann’s is 4.32 and Shields is 3.91. Marcum also had an injury history and had thrown 505 innings over the previous three years. Niemann has thrown 490 innings with some injury concerns, whereas Shields has been over 200 for five straight, including 672 over the past three and been injury free. Marcum had 2 years left, while Niemann and Shields have three left before FA. Marcum’s best season was 3.6 WAR, which Shields has surpassed in 4 of the past 5 years. Last off season, Marcum was one year younger than Shields this off season, so I don’t think age is a factor. Marcum also threw 36 more innings in 2010 than any season before. Shields this year, threw 30 more than his previous high, so I don’t think that would be a major concern either. I understand trying to not be a homer and overvalue our own guys, but I think you’re really selling Shields low here.

by ReyL on Oct 25, 2011 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't refute any of this, job well done, sir.

and there goes our season

OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

by Sandy Kazmir on Oct 26, 2011 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dear Mr. Sternfan

This would not be like Matt Joyce Jr.. It would be like MOM and daughter. Lomo has very little value to the Rays unless Kotch signs with another team ,before AF signs him to a multi-year contract. Lomo has 1 game experiance in the majors at 1b.
My prediction— If the Rays start the 2012 season without Kotch and Shields, they will not make the playoffs. That prediction even takes into account that another wild card team will be added to the playoffs next year.

by Landlord on Oct 24, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

NO Mr. Mr Maniac

the prediction that the Rays would not make the playoffs because of Kotch was made last season. That prediction was made by Kotch hater R.J. Anderson.It was stated again during the season by Mr. Suttrey. Both were proven to be totally incorrect and foolhardy.

by Landlord on Oct 24, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

He can play LF

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Oct 24, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks.

What’s his ceiling? I’ve read conflicting reports: one said 70 power, another said James Looney type.

by Ben Tumbling on Oct 24, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

BA
After hitting a respectable .272/.352/.401 with five homers in the first half, Yelich made impressive adjustments and batted .354/.423/.568 with 10 longballs in the second half to help the Grasshoppers win the league championship. He progressed rapidly with his advanced approach at the plate and a smooth swing.

In addition to projecting as an above-average hitter with at least average power, Yelich surprised opponents with his solid to plus speed. He stole 32 bases in 37 attempts and proved capable of manning center field, though he spent most of his time in left. He lacks the arm strength to fit in right field.

“He’s an advanced offensive player,” Greensboro manager Andy Haines said. “He can steal bases, showed some power and used the whole field. He’s a special, athletic player and an even better person. He has good instincts and is going to be a very productive offensive player because he sees the ball very well and really knows the strike zone.”

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Oct 24, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see Marlins wanting Shields

I’d like to trade with them though. Upton might interest them, Shields-Upton for Yelich-LoMo-Coghlin?

by raysrule44 on Oct 24, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Greensboro is a very friendly park for hitters....very friendly

A lot of Marlins prospects have trouble going from there to Jupiter where it’s extremely pitcher friendly.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Oct 24, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not like Yelich's a nobody though

He was a first rounder, few picks after Sale

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Oct 24, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't shields too much for lomo

I know we are going gave to give up something in order to get him but based on past history of the marlins just dumping players for less than their value it sounds to me like we could get morrison for a couple of relievers instead of shields. This is the same team that traded the organizations home run leader for a left handed reliever and glorified utility man turned 2nd baseman. Plus the marlins seem fed up with lomo so we could offer whatever we want for him instead of the marlins naming their price.

by Joe Maddon's Glasses on Oct 24, 2011 1:27 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

There's no way I would trade Shields w/ Morrison being the centerpiece of a deal

If Shields were to be traded there are better deals out there IMO. I’d much rather deal for a top catching or 1B prospect, not another Joyce who “might” be able to play 1B.

(For example):

Devin Mesoraco
Yasmani Grandal
Wilin Rosario
Yonder Alonso
Clint Robinson

Non Mollare, non mai mollare!
ItaliaNole A.K.A. SavvysNole

by ItaliaNole on Oct 24, 2011 2:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Care to expand?

Non Mollare, non mai mollare!
ItaliaNole A.K.A. SavvysNole

by ItaliaNole on Oct 24, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

The better question to ask is who you would take in that group over Morrison.

Mesoraco and maybe Alonso. I wouldn’t really think much about the others, except maybe Grandal.

by mr. maniac on Oct 24, 2011 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mesoraco and Alonso are the big ones I could think of off the top of my head

The other I just did a quick look at positions of need. I’m not really sure who could be available, but the point of my initial post was that there are better deals out there for shields than Morrison IMO. I guess I may not have expressed it as clearly as I had hoped.

Non Mollare, non mai mollare!
ItaliaNole A.K.A. SavvysNole

by ItaliaNole on Oct 24, 2011 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't sell Morrison short.

He’s a very good young player. He’s better than probably anybody on that list other than maybe Mesoraco or Alonso since they have an extra year of control. That being said, I wouldn’t trade Shields for at least a deal of Alonso, Grandal and another B level prospect. Just like I wouldn’t want to trade him to the Marlins for less than Morrison, Yelich and another B level prospect. He’s an ace signed for 3 more years at below market rates. We need to look for an appropriate return for trading that kind of asset.

by ReyL on Oct 24, 2011 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

fwiw I was suggesting we trade Bortnick for Robinson

if that gives any indication of Robinson’s value, no where near anyone on this list, especially Mesoraco or LoMo.

by Dbullsfan on Oct 24, 2011 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

my reaction as well.

I’d much rather have LoMo.

Am I the only one flagging this guy?
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!

by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Oct 24, 2011 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

We should be able to get a lot more for Shields than Morrison

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on Oct 24, 2011 3:21 PM EDT reply actions  

And I'm a huge fan of Morrison, but I don't think these trade calculators work well at all

Trade values are much more on an exponential scale in real life.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on Oct 24, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

seriously

those trade calculators are like the polar opposite of video game trades, there is a real life in the middle that will be found.

by Dbullsfan on Oct 24, 2011 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

they don't value pitchers that well because WAR doesn't really value pitchers that well, at least not relative to position players.

I could care less about your graduate degree-I was a full professor at Harvard at 34 and am a full professor at Columbia now in a theoretical field whose main tool is statistical mechanics. So can can come down from your high place.

by Buzzy on Sep 24, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions

by pudieron89 on Oct 25, 2011 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

When I hear Edwin Jackson and Matt Joyce

that doesn’t make Shields-Morrison appealing. Morrison has a lot going for him. But he also has plenty that he doesn’t. 1st he’s not an OF. That means he’s going to be relegated to 1B. 1B typically have above-average pop. He can do that. But he’s doesn’t appear to be a high contact hitter. And he’s not above-average on the bases.

So what does that mean? He has 1 tool that is above average. Could others develop? Sure. But that’s not worth the cost of Shields. As difficult as it is to find power, is as difficult as it is to find good, cost-effective pitching. Shields, and his options, are not expensive. Take a look at what the average SP makes. Watch and see how much Edwin Jackson makes in free agency this year. A durable, AL East-tested pitcher, with 3 cost-controlled seasons? Don’t underestimate that worth. Especially for a guy who’s more known for his antics than his play at this point.

Upton and ‘spect for LoMo, then we’re talking.

by raysfaninminnesota on Oct 24, 2011 3:35 PM EDT reply actions  

I would agree

Strikeouts not an issue. And I suppose he did hit for average in the minors and may only take more time in majors for that part of his game to improve. So I take that part back. He could hit for average in majors…but there’s a lot we don’t know yet. He could become a very, very nice bat. But with the emphasis on defense, can he at least be good enough…and I think he can. I just don’t think what LoMo is now is worth Shields. Niemann and Upton? I’d go for that. The Marlins get the CF they need. The Rays get the 1B they need.

by raysfaninminnesota on Oct 24, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

The last argument acknowledges, but in a way

ignores that Joyce mostly sits vs lefties. If he was playing every day, I’m sure there would be a bigger difference in rate stats.

Also, eventually someone needs to pay attention to roster efficiency. If this is the move that has the greatest net improvement to the team, once you consider replacements and the like, then this is the move that you make.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Oct 24, 2011 6:20 PM EDT reply actions  

The flip side is that you can't consider all trades just by what improves your team the most, you also have to factor in an asset's "inherent value"

Trading one of our extra starters for a middle reliever would make the team better, sure, but it still wouldn’t be a good move to

by benderbrodriguez on Oct 24, 2011 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

What could we pair with a Niemann/Davis/Cobb

That’d get a comparable fair value trade for LoMo.

It shouldn’t be too much considering previous trades have 3yrs of Arb have netted similar players.

Otherwise might be better to look elsewhere given the depth of extra 1B/DH types

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Oct 24, 2011 6:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I'd prefer to keep Cobb...

And would rather trade Niemann/Davis plus a prospect. Cobb has 6 yrs of service time, has pitched excellent at every level, and threw tremendous at the Big League level. I’m a big fan of Cobb…

by td32 on Oct 24, 2011 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bedard comp

If I were AF, my stance on trading Shields right now would be pretty straightforward: “Hey, 29 teams are interested in Shields, and we’re pretty sure that after C.J. Wilson and C.C. Sabathia both sign — and probably with the Yankees — teams are going to panic and offer us the farm (literally) for Shields. So if you want to deal now, you’re going to have to beat the best reasonable deal we can get.”

So forget “fair value” — we’re talking about leveraging Shields for maximum value. What’s maximum reasonable value for Shields? Well, a framework might be the 2008 deal sending Erik Bedard to Seattle for five players: a young, major-league ready hitter with All-Star upside (Adam Jones), an elite MLB reliever (George Sherrill), an A-level pitching prospect (Chris Tillman) and two B-level pitching prospects (Kam Mickolio and Tony Butler, who never really panned out).

Shields is, of course, better than Bedard. But there’s your starting point: an MLB regular with All-Star upside (Logan Morrison), a quality MLB bullpen arm (Edward Mujica?), an elite prospect (Christian Yelich?) and two more good prospects (say, Marcell Ozuna and J.T. Realmuto?).

by AndrewTorrez on Oct 24, 2011 8:28 PM EDT reply actions  

you can have part of that haul for free

"If you find a man or woman who sticks around after you tell them "I may be a demented horse, but I know CPR," you marry them. No questions asked." - kishi

by CaptainCanuck on Oct 25, 2011 1:19 AM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions  

I agree with this.

The Rays are no in the Garza situation. They can keep Shields and trade Niemann and/or someone else instead.

The Rays seem to work best when there are multiple suitors. There appears to be 27 suitors.

by mr. maniac on Oct 24, 2011 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

somewhere inbetween this optimistic package and just LoMo lies the answer.

I could care less about your graduate degree-I was a full professor at Harvard at 34 and am a full professor at Columbia now in a theoretical field whose main tool is statistical mechanics. So can can come down from your high place.

by Buzzy on Sep 24, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions

by pudieron89 on Oct 25, 2011 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

not much

Loria will do anything to unload that contract. But youd also have to pay for a new domain for his twitter.

"If you find a man or woman who sticks around after you tell them "I may be a demented horse, but I know CPR," you marry them. No questions asked." - kishi

by CaptainCanuck on Oct 25, 2011 1:18 AM EDT via iPhone app reply actions  

Why would we trade Shields for outfielders?

When we can get solid bats that fill positional needs also? All I can think of right now is the Reds. We should be able to get Alonso, Grandal and Todd Frazier pretty easily. Ramon Hernandez is affordable for a year. One thing I can say us I doubt the Rays would try to convert an outfielder to first base when that is not a normal position for them. There is no need for both Guyer and Yelich in the minors. To me, their tradeable players just don’t line up with our needs. The Reds’ tradable players do.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Oct 25, 2011 11:55 AM EDT reply actions  

He was a 1b until Gaby Sanchez became good on the Marlins.

Am I the only one flagging this guy?
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!

by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Oct 25, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that's my fault.

When I posted it I didn’t realize he was originally a First Basemen. In that case………

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Oct 25, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

A good trade would be

logan morrison, omar infante and a good, young bullpen arm such as ceda and maybe a mid level prospect or 2 to fill out the deal

by baseball5 on Oct 27, 2011 2:53 PM EDT reply actions  

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