Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

Bill James Projections And Imagining A Lineup With Votto

The 2011 Rays offense was right around league average. They finished with a wRC+ of 103 and were right in the middle of the pack in runs scored at 15th in the majors with 707 runs. The Rays cumulative team wOBA was .320, slightly above the league wOBA of .316 from last year.

JT Morgan had a fantastic post looking at the 2011 Rays offense since Desmond Jennings was brought up full-time and the Rays averaged 4.69 runs per game with him which equates to 760 runs in a season, a 50+ run increase.

On top of that, there were a slew of Rays that had "down" years last year. Sure, it is incredibly difficult to predict a down year or a breakout year but there are some great systems out there for predicting future stats. One of my favorites is from Bill James.

If the Rays were to roll the same lineup out in 2012 as they did in 2011 this is what Bill James predicts (with the 2011 stats included):

Star-divide

 2011 Triple-Slash  2012 Triple-Slash  2011 HR/SB  2012 HR/SB  2011 PAs  2012 PAs  2011 wOBA  2012 wOBA  wOBA Difference
 Jennings  .259/.356/.449  .267/.347/.424  10/20  17/47  287  709  .361  .348  -.013
 Zobrist  .269/.353/.469  .262/.360/.436  20/19  18/18  674  646  .360  .352  -.008
 Longoria  .244/.355/.495  .275/.370/.535  31/3  35/6  574  651  .365  .386  +.021
 Joyce  .277/.347/.478  .269/.357/.485  19/13  19/10  522  483  .357  .359  +.002
 Upton  .243/.331/.429  .251/.344/.424  23/36  19/37  640  637  .337  .340  +.003
 Rodriguez  .223/.323/.357  .252/.331/.430  8/11  15/12  436  462  .303  .326  +.023
 Jaso  .224/.298/.354  .254/.347/.376  5/1  6/2  273  345  .288  .324  +.036
 Fuld  .240/.313/.360  .248/.333/.342  3/20  1/6  346  131  .301  .302  -.001
 E.Johnson  .194/.257/.338  .253/.308/.403  4/6  5/9  181  201  .252  .314  +.062
 Kotchman  .306/.378/.422  .268/.344/.402  10/2  8/1  563  385  .351  .320  -.031
 Damon  .261/.326/.418  .267/.343/.409  16/19  12/12  647  493  .328  .332  +.004
 Brignac  .193/.227/.221  .244/.295/.373  1/3  5/3  264  240  .203  .289  +.086
 Guyer  .195/.214/.366  .276/.321/.462  2/0  6/9  43  212  .251  .343  +.092
 Shoppach  .176/.268/.339  .227/.318/.431  11/0  11/0  253  216  .274  .318  +.044

 

I am using wOBA because data since 2007 indicates that it is the best stat to use in correlation with team runs. Average had a 0.78 correlation, On-Base Percentage was 0.89, Sluggin Percentage was 0.92, OPS was 0.958, and wOBA was 0.961.

James predicts similar offensive production from Ben Zobrist, B.J. Upton, Matt Joyce, Johnny Damon, and Sam Fuld. James also predicts significant increases in Evan Longoria, Sean Rodriguez, John Jaso, Kelly Shoppach, Brandon Guyer, and Elliot Johnson. And the significant decreases belong to Casey Kotchman, and to a lesser degree, Desmond Jennings.

All-in-all, James predicts positive regression for the Rays if they sent the same team out on the field as they did in 2011. Jennings' predicted drop in wOBA is only -.013 and the extended playing time over Fuld would more than make up for that drop. This leaves the Rays with one area that needs significant replacement and it is at first base.

Let's not take away from the solid season Kotchman had in 2011 where he posted a .351 wOBA but he is currently a free agent coming off of a solid offensive season and has a stellar glove. He will garner much more attention than some think, driving his value on the open market up. I do not see a return to the Rays and even if he could reproduce last year's numbers there are options out there that can put up similar, if not better offensive numbers.

Here are some first basemen that the DRB staff and community have looked at as potential suitors and their projections from Bill James:

 2012 Triple-Slash  2012 HR/SB  2011 PAs  2012 PAs  2011 wOBA  2012 wOBA  wOBA Difference
 Votto  .310/.412/.547  31/9  719  680  .403  .408  +.005
 LoMo  .265/.363/.475  18/3  525  507  .344  .361  +.017
 Alonso  .277/.345/.446  11/5  98  371  .409  .347  -.062
 Belt  .266/.358/.482  25/11  209  602  .314  .363  +.049
 Duda  .279/.364/.488  14/1  347  370  .368  .365  -.003
 Branyan  .228/.326/.456  12/2  146  234  .300  .340  +.040
 Smoak  .244/.343/.410  20/0  489  616  .316  .330  +.014

 

Justin Smoak is essentially Kotchman with less average and more power and there is no clear evidence that he is available in trade. Russell Branyan is solid depth and his projected .340 wOBA would be an upgrade over the projected .320 wOBA James has for Kotchman but it won't replicate Kotchman's production from last year and there is not guarantee he will stay healthy. I still like him as depth, though.

Yonder Alonso is projected to come close to Kotchman's 2011 production but will cost a good arm plus some. Brandon Belt, like Smoak, has not been put on the market but that line would look great in the Rays lineup but what would it cost in trade? Upton and an arm? No thanks.

That leaves us with Logan Morrison, Lucas Duda, and yes, Joey Votto as the most viable options to obtain and give a boost in performance from what the Rays received in 2011 and what is projected by Kotchman in 2012.

The easiest one to obtain would be Duda. There is no indication that he is fully available but the Mets have Ike Davis at first and Duda is not very good in left. He is projected to perform very similarly to his 2011 self with a .365 wOBA, which is +.045 more than Kotchman is projected to hit in 2012. Duda comes with less of a pedigree but should be easier to get than Morrison and Votto.

Morrison is in the middle of the other two. He has been said to be "off limits" but most believe that to be a ploy to up his market value. LoMo was almost the same as Kotchman according to wOBA last year but projects to be +.041 wOBA points more than 2012 Kotchman and could be obtained by the Rays. He has the track record of hitting and the chances of obtaining him are there.

Joey Votto, the best player of the bunch, provides the greatest upgrade but will cost the most in trade and in real salary. He would be the best hitter on the team and his glove is actually an improvement, believe it or not, over Kotchman. His projected wOBA is +.088 higher than Kotchman's projected and is +0.57 higher than what he posted last year. Votto will cost James Shields plus some but can you imagine the lineup (with projected wOBA and difference compared to similar position from 2011) if the Rays actually traded for him:

   Projected wOBA  Positional '11 wOBA  wOBA Difference
 Jennings (LF)  .348  .323  +.025
 Votto (1B)  .408  .328  +.080
 Longoria (3B)  .386  .347  +.039
 Zobrist (2B)  .352  .338  +.014
 Joyce (RF)  .359  .349  +.010
 Upton (CF)  .340  .337  +.003
 Damon (DH)  .332  .321  +.011
 Rodriguez (SS)  .326  .263  +.063
 Jaso/Shppach (C)  .322  .274  +.048
 Team  .349  .320  +.029

 

The .349 wOBA also includes all Bill James projected players listed in the first table of the article, minus Kotchman, and not just the starting nine I have listed above. That number would have placed 2nd in the majors in 2011 behind only the Red Sox who had a .351 wOBA and scored a league best 875 runs. The Rangers posted a .348 wOBA and scored 855 runs.

This, of course, is assuming these players meet their 2012 projections and stay healthy. The 2011 league-average wOBA was .316 so the Rays got better than league-average from every position except shortstop and catcher and I see no reason that won't happen again.

Also, the big gap from Votto to 2011 Rays first basemen includes Dan Johnson's playing time so the +.057 wOBA over Kotchman is more realistic to assume. The projected .326 wOBA for Rodriguez at short would also go down for the positon when given time off off for Brignac and Johnson. Joyce's projected .359 feels a bit more safe with Guyer as the platoon partner.

Brandon Guyer is projected to have a .343 wOBA and if you add Russell Branyan and his projected .340 wOBA you have the makings of a scary good lineup with solid depth or they could be used to replace Damon and rotate the DH spot to keep guys fresh.

Projections are no where near a sure thing. Injuries, season long slumps, mechanical breakdowns, and so many other things get in the way. But, for a minute, imagine a lineup posting these numbers playing in Tampa Bay. The possibilities are legit. Add that to a league best defense and a starting rotation of Price-Hellickson-Moore-Niemann-Davis-Cobb and you have the making of a World Series looking team.

Comment 88 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Superb post.

Dang, if Rodriguez could improve like that (which I doubt), he would be a very valuable asset.

I guess I should expect positive regression from Jaso, but he just seemed so lost last year.

by mr. maniac on Nov 18, 2011 10:57 AM EST reply actions  

When I saw what James projected for S-Rod I got a little giddy.

He has the minor league track record for it and the MLB experience to improve. It could happen. Praying Jaso hit a sophomore slump but I think he underperforms James’ projections but not by a lot.

by jcmitchell on Nov 18, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Joey Votto is not coming to the Rays

Neither are Albert Pujols, Primce Fielder or Jose Reyes

Don’t fantasy league teams commence in late March?

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Nov 18, 2011 11:21 AM EST reply actions  

I think it's worth mentioning that Bill James predictions are notoriously optimistic.

Generally speaking they come in much higher than ZiPS/CHONE/PECOTA/etc, at least for batters.

I found this article on the subject, which claims that the league average numbers BJ uses are higher than they should be.

Nevertheless, it’s great to see that most guys should be repeating/improving on their 2011 performances.

by ChiBurbRaysFan on Nov 18, 2011 11:24 AM EST reply actions  

I still prefer James to ZiPS and Chone.

Those two seem like they way underestimate, which is the safe thing to do. I like to see the optomistic view for sure, even if it is slightly off.

by jcmitchell on Nov 18, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

How is a slight over-evaluation any worse than a slight under-evaluation?

No delusion, I just prefer my galss half full. And he is normally higher on young players and pretty spot-on on guys with a big enough sample size.

by jcmitchell on Nov 18, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Yea I was. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Nevertheless, the James projections are probably correct relative to itself; it’s just using a higher scoring environment.

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 18, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I’ve tried in the past but have been able to balance offensive levels from James projections – if it were simply a higher scoring environment, then the pitching statistics would be proportionally worse, but they’re still proportionally better as well.

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Nov 18, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for that info, Dan.

I guess Bill just wants everyone to feel good.

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 18, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Seeing as my Reds aren't moving Votto

what kind of deal would you think reasonable for Alonso? Would Alonso + some be sufficient for Shields?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2011 12:25 PM EST reply actions  

I don't like the sound of the + some.

Some here thinks that Wade Davis or Niemann should be enough for Alonso. If it’s for Shields, Alonso & Grandal is the popular combo being mentioned.

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 18, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm getting even more and more sold on the fact that Price might be the one to get traded instead of Shields

and man would Dusty love him some David Price and power throwing lefty. Votto for Price might not be out of the picture.

by Dbullsfan on Nov 18, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Price being traded is gaining steam

I was hoping Price would pitch 1 more season with the Rays where he improves both his actual pitching and results with better luck, then his trade value would be really something.

But then that’s less 1 year of team control plus huge arbitration cost would probably bring down his trade value to where it is now. So yea, I’m down with Price being traded. He’ll probably fetch more as he’s a sexier name than Shields.

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 18, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I would imagine the Rays would demand much more than Votto for Price.

Price has huge upside (that of an ace) and is practically there already. Any team recieving him in a trade would look to extend him.

Plus, SPs command a huge price in the market right now. Meseraco, Alonso, Frazier, and a minor prospect seems like a good start.

by mr. maniac on Nov 18, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

The market also says that MVP-caliber sluggers are very valuable

I’d argue that the Rays would need a sweetener to make that deal happen, like Cobb or Colome.

But again, Votto is going nowhere.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Going by the running rate of Ace-like pitchers on the open market, I don't see that happening.

The Rays have all the leverage in the world. Votto is a very good player, but has a year less left on his contract and is not in as much demand. Teams have the option of going and getting younger high potential players such as Morrison or Alonso instead.

by mr. maniac on Nov 18, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Votto for Price has been mentioned over at Red Reporter as well

and it’s definitely interesting. But the Reds are not dealing Votto. Walt Jocketty isn’t the kind of wheeler dealer that Friedman is. It looks like the plan is to compete the next two years with Votto as the centerpiece. And I’m fine with that.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that is more likely to happen.

I see Jocketty trading for lesser parts and could see a Wade Davis – Yonder Alonso type deal before Votto – Shields/Price. But the possibility is out there for either, just some more likely than others.

by jcmitchell on Nov 18, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't see Kotchman regressing that much.

James’ predictions probably don’t take into account his past eye problems and the fact that they are now fixed. Think Ricky Vaughn

by TLane on Nov 18, 2011 1:23 PM EST reply actions  

I agree.

It’s why I posted in a paragraph below the chart that it’s more accurate to rate Votto against Kotchman’s .351 wOBA from last year and that his 2012 projections have him +0.57 higher.

by jcmitchell on Nov 18, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Why is this an article? Votto is not going anywhere, and the rays will have to trade Moore+prospects

Seriously, next thing you guys will write is how we should build two stadiums.

www.ottotd.com
Contact me! putupyourDUKES@dhazebay.com
END THE FED! Google Ron Paul!
†††If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!†††

by putupyourDUKES on Nov 18, 2011 1:55 PM EST reply actions  

Three stadiums.

One in Tampa, St. Pete, and Brooklyn. Gotta keep everyone happy.

by jcmitchell on Nov 18, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Give us Moore and Hellickson and we’ll talk about Votto.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Moore+Lee is more realistic.

www.ottotd.com
Contact me! putupyourDUKES@dhazebay.com
END THE FED! Google Ron Paul!
†††If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!†††

by putupyourDUKES on Nov 18, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

That's the point

The Reds aren’t trading Votto unless it’s in an unreasonable deal. /shrugs

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Thats cool too.

And the Rays will continue to have to remind the Reds how the playoffs are.

The Rays don’t have to move anyone to make the playoffs. I could be wrong, but it looks like the Reds do.

by mr. maniac on Nov 18, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah...

Yeah. Thanks for rubbing that in, by the way.

Fortunately, I think the Reds have the prospects available to fill those holes. This is probably the biggest off-season in recent memory for the Reds, so hopefully they can navigate the waters and come out with a pennant on the other end.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I wasn't trying to rub it in.

I was just trying to point out that the Rays do an excellent job setting themselves up. Last year, the Rays targeted the Cubs for the Garza trade. The Cubs wanted pitching and the Rays were able to get quite a bit out of that. Given Garza’s sucess, I believe the Rays have even a larger amount of leverage now.

The Rays set themselves in a posistion where they never “need” something in a trade. Sure they would like a catcher or a 1B, but they ave showed they won’t overpay. Plenty of teams are not like that, and it appears the Rays them.

by mr. maniac on Nov 18, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Also.

If you read the article it lists other first base candidates and thier projected numbers. It also says that it is a long shot, hence the term “imagine”. It’s more than just Votto.

by jcmitchell on Nov 18, 2011 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Why is the Belt deal you mentioned off the table?

I know the Giants haven’t made him available – but I’d be really surprised if Rays management saw Upton + arm for Belt (cost control!) as a bad deal. I mean, provided that the arm isn’t Moore / Price / Shields / Helly / Torres. But NyQuil + Upton? Cobb + Upton? I’d take that deal, were it available.

Twitter: @bgrosnick
Writer at RotoHardball

by Bryan Grosnick on Nov 18, 2011 2:08 PM EST reply actions  

that's more realistic. Sabean is an idiot and would trade a young player for garbage.

www.ottotd.com
Contact me! putupyourDUKES@dhazebay.com
END THE FED! Google Ron Paul!
†††If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!†††

by putupyourDUKES on Nov 18, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

This is why I thought it would be off.

But I could see them doing Upton/Cobb for Belt or a similar deal. Move Melky to a corner and put Upton in center.

by jcmitchell on Nov 18, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

their center is garbage.

www.ottotd.com
Contact me! putupyourDUKES@dhazebay.com
END THE FED! Google Ron Paul!
†††If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!†††

by putupyourDUKES on Nov 18, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Let me go on record here as saying i'd be shocked if any of what most consider the Rays

‘Big 4’ SP’s are traded before the ’;12 season Shields, Price, Helly or Moore

Those suggesting other as i read above are blowing smoke up their butts

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Nov 18, 2011 2:40 PM EST reply actions  

Of course they won't be traded

That’s why we are only offering Alex Cobb for Castro! The cubs are fools not to bite on that!

www.ottotd.com
Contact me! putupyourDUKES@dhazebay.com
END THE FED! Google Ron Paul!
†††If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!†††

by putupyourDUKES on Nov 18, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Per Rancel

Twins to sign Doumit for $3mil/1 yr

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Nov 18, 2011 2:44 PM EST reply actions  

Purely hypothetical, ie, pointless

Would you trade David Price (4 years of club control left) for Cole Hamels (1 yr left) and Domonic Brown (5 yrs left)?

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 18, 2011 8:46 PM EST reply actions  

Not a chance.

Hamels is projected to earn $14MM in arb.

by jtmorgan on Nov 18, 2011 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh yea, the money thing.

But assuming Philly sends the difference?

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 19, 2011 4:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Ehhhhh

Price is a proven commodity at the big league level, while Brown isn’t. And Brown doesn’t have “best player in the game” upside a la Bryce Harper/Mike Trout. So no.

by benderbrodriguez on Nov 19, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, I tend to agree

I was thinking of Brown as a perennial 4-win player, but looking at his defensive numbers so far (ugly) and a lack of good scouting talking point regarding his defense makes me think his defense will hold him down from being that kind of player.

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 19, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I just actually read about his off the charts makeup but couldn't find anything regarding his defense. Thanks.

It’s a pointless trade discussion in terms of real life relevance, but it’s got a concept I think.

From the Phillies’ perspective, it’s like they’ve signed Hamels (who is Price’s equal I would say) to a 3 year/12M per year contract extension instead of needing something like a 100M, 5 year deal to keep him. Of course they give up Dom Brown for that privilege.

For the Rays, it’s a trade that helps them now (a 3-4 WAR upgrade over Davis/Cobb/Fuld/Guyer?), unlike the Garza trade which produced only marginal immediate help. Plus, you can still get a haul for Hamels if the Rays are out of contention by July.

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 19, 2011 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

I did a rudimentary, eyeball comparison of Jennings & Brown. They both debuted in 2006, and since then Jennings has put up better numbers at higher levels pretty much every year. Dom Brown might still turn into a great player, but I wouldn’t trade Price for a rental at a position of strength (how much better is Hamels than just keeping Price?) and a lesser version of a player the Rays already have. There’s got to be a better deal out there.

by ChiBurbRaysFan on Nov 19, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Founded in 2005, DRaysBay is home to, "Progressive statistical analysis and reasoned argument."

Please read our Community Guidelines.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Spts-shelton_small
Which Red Sox Fan Are You?
Spts-shelton_small
The Opportunity of the Century
Ryu_small
This one goes out to all the chicken littles
Small
MLB needs to help bring All-Star game to Bay Area
Small
Who's That in My Old Seats?

Recent FanPosts

Untitled4_small
The Rays Should 'Retaliate' By Winning
Whelk_small
Rays 7, Sox 4; Immediate Reactions
Images_small
Post-Game (Over)Reactions here
Small
Proposal: Rays play a series in Durham each year
Ag_-_hector_gomez_-_63_small
Visiting Tampa Bay from Colorado
Images_small
Immediate Reactions: Rays Win, But Likely Lose Another Guy

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Catch For the Ages
Brandon Guyer out for season
Other Side of the Coin: Rodney's Fortune on Called Strikes
Does anyone have any information on Josh Sale? He doubled in a run in his...
Orlando Hudson released
Rays sign Garko to minor league...
Baseball Card Fans...check out my Ebay Auctions
Cameron Seitzer Growing Up Baseball
Longo injury apparently is apparently not good
Hak-Ju Lee, SS, Rays (Double-A Montgomery) Lee had a breakout year in...

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Friends of the Site

DRB Suggestion Box

Drb4_medium

Yahoo_full_count

Managers

Slowsky__1__small Steve Slowinski

Images_small Jason Collette

Brad_small BWoodrum

Price_small Erik Hahmann

Analysts

Small td32

Rutg_uakjmedjwh9ndzd4lkll_small Imperialism32

100_1952_small MrNegative1

Steak-with-crown_small CBJones

Whelk_small Whelk

Scaled_php_small mr. maniac

Tampa_theatre_small jcmitchell

Me_small John Gregg

Small SGrauer