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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Immediate Reactions to New CBA

We are still processing through the details that were announced today by Major League Baseball and are also trying to secure an interview with someone that can help us go over the details as it affects the Rays. The reactions on Twitter from the different baseball pundits however, is not positive. The groupthink particularly does not like how the amateurs and the international league signees are now being heavily restricted to the point it could potentially encourage the better athletes to choose another sport. Some of the immediate details:

  • 26 man rosters during some double-headers
  • No more major league contract offers to draftees
  • Competitive balance lottery  that gives small-market teams extra selections in the draft
  • Draft tax to discourage teams from overspending in the draft 
  • Luxury tax on international signees
  • Social media policy now in place
Maury Brown has a full list of details on his site and we are hoping to get him to sit down and chat with us about how this affects the Rays once he has time to step away from the phone and keyboard.

The reactions from the pundits can be found below the fold in the Storify slideshow

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It's really stupid for the sport as a whole

But really not that bad (but not good) for the Rays

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Nov 22, 2011 1:58 PM EST reply actions  

This is where I'm coming out after looking at this more.

It just lowers the margins for the Rays, but I see it being a worse deal for small market teams with high yearly draft picks (think Pirates, Royals).

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Nov 22, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Going over it, it's a whole lot worse for other teams than the Rays

Except for that Super 2 news we already knew about. As stupid as it sounds, our only postseason winning pitcher of 2011 will most likely start 2012 in Durham.

Did I see that teams are gonna be given 3 million to spend on international players this offseason? I guess Andrew better go find some one. Also, no more losing picks for Type A’s? Man, did we pick the right season to lose half our team. I like the “trap” replay because guys like Fuld love to dive and sometimes, that makes it look like it hit the grass first.

Anyway, the one thing I wanted most in 2012 was a full season of our big 4 and the super 2 news makes it less likely so I don’t like it.

Under construction

by joeybw on Nov 22, 2011 2:12 PM EST reply actions  

I think someone said you can trade your int'l spending money in future years.

Not sure how the Rays can manipulate that, but more choice should play in their favor.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 22, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Funny how out of context, things can sound really stupid.

I could care less about your graduate degree-I was a full professor at Harvard at 34 and am a full professor at Columbia now in a theoretical field whose main tool is statistical mechanics. So can can come down from your high place.

by Buzzy on Sep 24, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions

by pudieron89 on Nov 22, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Doesn't this stop the Yankees and RedSox from "buying" draft picks

One good thing, it stops the RedSox and others from throwing big money at draft picks to outspend others.

by JumpinJack on Nov 22, 2011 2:30 PM EST reply actions  

Yes, to a point

see Maury’s article linked above. Teams can go over & pay a tax, or go over and give up a 1st rd pick, or two.

The sucky part is everyone has to register in a central draft database now so you can’t sneak anyone through

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 22, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

They can go overslot and sign players that fall due to price concerns.

The Red Sox have spent the 4th most amount of money on the draft since ‘07. Yankees were at 11th. So there’s that.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Nov 22, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Where is the list?

Small marker teams have been spending a lot of money on the draft in recent years.

by mr. maniac on Nov 22, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahh, I found the list.

Pirates, Nats, Royals, Orioles, and Rays all in the top 6.

It is more of an MLB wide issue. The Rays have outspent the Yanks.

by mr. maniac on Nov 22, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you

by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Nov 22, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Looks like Joba and Ian Kennedy...

and Verlander and Maybin and Porcello and Andrew Miller were also. I think it’s fair to say that the big market teams were certainly doing their fair share of going over slot.

Boom. Outta Here.

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by Ryan Gilliss on Nov 22, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

IIRC, Brackman would have been a high first round pick but needed TJ

so most teams wanted to wait. The Yanks jumped on him and went way over slot. So I guess you could say they “bought” that pick.

where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you

by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Nov 22, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah...

Brackman got 4.5 million guaranteed

Boom. Outta Here.

Follow me on Twitter @RyanGilliss

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by Ryan Gilliss on Nov 22, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

___
The Yankees signed Greg Bird for $1.1MM, according to Zoodig, an athlete digital media platform, on Twitter. The Yankees signed sixth rounder Jake Cave for $825K, according to Callis (on Twitter). The Yankees also signed third rounder Jordan Cote for $725K, according to Callis. The high school right-hander has a fastball in the 90 mph range and stands 6’5". Earlier today, the Yankees signed 20th round pick and high school lefty Daniel Camarena for $335K

Boom. Outta Here.

Follow me on Twitter @RyanGilliss

Also follow my Wolfpack:

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@wtb_tampa

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by Ryan Gilliss on Nov 22, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Well it's contradictory to your statement that the Yankees don't buy picks....

While far from a perfect system, this does move baseball more in a direction towards drafting based on a players talent and not factors that are dictated off the field.

Boom. Outta Here.

Follow me on Twitter @RyanGilliss

Also follow my Wolfpack:

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by Ryan Gilliss on Nov 22, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I still hold by my statement.

It is relative, of course. Going off what you are saying, every team that ever drafted has bought picks.

by mr. maniac on Nov 22, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

That didn't work.

Every team has spent overslot at some time. My thought was, of course, relative.

by mr. maniac on Nov 22, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

The rays have also had much a higher total slot

Partly because of the 12 picks last year and partly because we used to suck and have top 5 picks

by benderbrodriguez on Nov 22, 2011 3:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

This is a much better arguement.

However, teams try to balance out having a top pick sometimes by signing later selections for less.

by mr. maniac on Nov 22, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Because of top picks and having a lot of them

And Yankees signing Type-As

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Nov 22, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Does this "draft tax" for going over slot really hurt the Rays?

Would the higher end talent be out of bounds now if there is a tax? I thought I read it may be as high as 100%.

where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you

by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Nov 22, 2011 3:18 PM EST reply actions  

I'm also not entirely convinced that this drives players to other sports in any appreciable number...

if anything I could see it drive more kids to college baseball. Not necessarily good for pitchers.

Boom. Outta Here.

Follow me on Twitter @RyanGilliss

Also follow my Wolfpack:

@RealNolenBailey

@wtb_tampa

@ptsuttery

@sternfan10

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by Ryan Gilliss on Nov 22, 2011 3:42 PM EST reply actions  

I can see your point

if a player comes out of high school and decides to play College Football that’s a choice.

But so few college football players go to play pro and there is no minor league system to make a living off of.

So, even if you have attrition of some athletes to college FB or Basketball my guess is they will still play baseball and will return to the draft as college juniors/seniors once it is obvious that they aren’t going to make it in the NFL/NBA.

All sports are very difficult to reach the professional level but you can still make a nice little living in minor league baseball. Of course, the wages could be paltry for most, but if you can get a decent signing bonus of around 150K you’ve at least bought yourself the opportunity to chase a dream.

by MrNegative1 on Nov 22, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

At the top of the draft. Was $3M (for instance) not enough to lure Starling away from Nebraska football, rather than the $7M he got (IIRC)? What if he knew that he would still only get $3M after three years when he graduated? (Assuming he doesn’t believe he’s in the less than 1% of 1% who make that as an NFL pro.)

And at the bottom of the draft, it’s more grey. But you can still make a living (sort of) in the minors plus an education (free?) after. Is a football/basketball scholarship really going to pull players away from baseball just b/c fewer guys get $50k MiLB signing bonuses?

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 22, 2011 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

There are several things that hurt the Rays and others that help them.

The Rays have not been a big spender on international FAs. So with the new CBA, the Rays are helped out.

The Rays do go overslot though. I’d like to run some numbers to see what percentage we are looking at.

by mr. maniac on Nov 22, 2011 3:58 PM EST reply actions  

Not really.

To get elite talent, the Rays will have to rely on players falling. However, they won’t be able to go too far over slot.

by mr. maniac on Nov 22, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I think you’ll be happy to be competitive at the loss of better draftees.

Would you prefer it the other way around?

At least the big spenders will be in the same boat, just like NBA/NFL. In the old scheme, NY/Bos/Tex were able to have their cake and eat it too. I think the new plan is geared to avoid this, which is a good thing – if it will actually level the playing field (actually the draft war room) is less clear.

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 22, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder what this is going to do for the low minors

I don’t see teams loading up GCL and Rookie league teams with college guys and will there be a 3-4 year lull where the drafts are really shallow because there just isn’t a lot of talent while a lot of the would have been high school kids going pro are in their first 3 years of college.

by Dbullsfan on Nov 22, 2011 4:01 PM EST reply actions  

could be a boon for Junior College Kids

Many JC kids may elect to get into the system immediately rather than transferring to Div 1.

Why transfer when you’re $ is basically capped.

A lot of high school kids may just go the JUCO route and then be satisfied with their draft level?

by MrNegative1 on Nov 22, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

watch the loopholes

Could a high school kid come out, get drafted, play semi-pro ball and be a free agent the next season and avoid all of these restrictions?

Luke Hochevar type maneuver?

Will be interesting to see who the first player is that tries this end around.

That player wouldn’t be an international free agent and wouldn’t be considered in the draft tax program.

by MrNegative1 on Nov 22, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought they closed that loop

Aaron Crow was re-included in the succeeding draft, wasn’t he?

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 22, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

was he?

That’d be interesting to know.

by MrNegative1 on Nov 22, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

looks like

Crow played independent ball in 2008 but was never drafted prior to 2009.

I think a player has to at least be eligibe to be drafted and go through the official process before he can play indy ball and become a free agent.

Not 100% but think that’s his story.

by MrNegative1 on Nov 22, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

upon further review

or at least through the power of Google:!!!

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/may/01/all-the-right-moves-aaron-crow/

Looks like he was drafted by the Nationals, played Semi-Pro ball, and re-entered draft.

Even my thoughts on Hochevar were incorrect—don’t know why I had the confusion but now it’s all cleared up!

by MrNegative1 on Nov 22, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

When I did my story

on the CBA last year an interesting story came up about Bonus Babies. These drafted players who were paid a certain $ bonus had to be on a MLB roster immediately and stay there for 2 years before you could send them down.

The maneuvering among teams was often questioned but none more than the relationship with the K.C. Athletics and the Yankees. The Athletics drafted Clete Boyer and after his 2 years was up traded him to the Yankees as a player to be named later in a deal from the previous winter. A lot of owners felt the Yankees were just using the A’s as a farm system to season players.

Funny if players are drafted and signed and 1 year later included in trades from one org to another in a clever way to avoid a tax. Probably never happen but I’m certain that conspirators will call on the Ole Clete Boyer story as an example of how to get around a rule.

by MrNegative1 on Nov 22, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Human Nature

For most kids, whether high school, JUCO, or College the opportunity to chase a dream of being a big leaguer will be the driving force. Will some kids take a different route? Yes. But, I’d say the majority of kids are eventually going to find their way into the minor league baseball system….jut the timing of the entry may be different.

by MrNegative1 on Nov 22, 2011 4:13 PM EST reply actions  

probably not immediately

but I would bet he’d continue to play baseball in college and “later” when he received the interest from the other leagues he could choose baseball…but COLLEGE would definitely be his first choice and baseball would have to wait.

The first choice will definitely drive 2 sport stars to college first.

by MrNegative1 on Nov 22, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Ran a few numbers.

The Rays were about 10% overslot last year. That could be due to the high amount of first round picks, which tend to be overslot. I’ll look at other years.

by mr. maniac on Nov 22, 2011 4:27 PM EST reply actions  

Since you're not allowed to spend extra $$$ on the draft

Time for the Rays to go to Plan B

#stusbottomline

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Nov 22, 2011 5:11 PM EST reply actions  

Lottery

the 6 pick lottery for the 10 teams with lowest revenue and 10 smallest market right after the first round could be a boon to the Rays. In many cases the first 10 will coincide with the second and as a result it will be less than 20 teams in the lottery for those spots. Maybe somewhere like 14 or 15. If that’s the number, than you would expect the Rays to luck into a 1st round supp draft pick as part of this lottery once every 3 years or so.

I can’t help but like that

by joaker5 on Nov 22, 2011 5:50 PM EST reply actions  

Sadly, because of Winning Percentage

The Rays probably have a .00001% chance of winning.

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Nov 22, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Factor?

I didn’t see any factor that mentioned winning or losing. Did you see something?

by joaker5 on Nov 22, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

never mind

Here it is

B. The ten Clubs with the lowest revenues, and the ten Clubs in the smallest

markets, will be entered into a lottery for the six draft selections immediately

following the completion of the first round of the draft. A Club’s odds of winning

the lottery will be based on its prior season’s winning percentage

by joaker5 on Nov 22, 2011 6:15 PM EST reply actions  

Competitive Balance Lottery

Jim Callis and others at Baseball America read the fine print(check twitter) and teams are able to TRADE these picks. This may become very interesting…

by Jacob Larsen on Nov 22, 2011 8:38 PM EST reply actions  

This is huge

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7270203/baseball-new-labor-deal-truly-historic-one

The union also pressed for, and got, a new rule that directly connects revenue-sharing money to big-league payroll. So if you’re getting revenue-sharing checks, the payroll of your 40-man roster now has to be at least 25 percent larger than the amount you’re receiving. In other words, if your revenue-sharing check is for $40 million, your big-league payroll needs to be at least $50 million. If it isn’t, Weiner said, “you have the burden of proving you’re in compliance” with the rule requiring that money to be spent on improving the major-league team. In the past, that burden fell on the union.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 22, 2011 10:00 PM EST reply actions  

If the Rays don't want to plunge unnecessarily to the inefficient FA market...

To make quota. the Rays should sign, say, David Price to a front loaded contract?

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 22, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I completely agree with this system as long as player development is include as "improving your big-league team."

As I believe Stu said when talking about the 2010 payroll level that by increases their payroll they reduced the amount they received from Revenue Sharing. The amount received should be based upon team revenues in order to incentivize teams to spend a larger amount of the money on the big-league payroll. But as long as the teams are spending a base amount on draft + IFA + payroll they should get the Revenue Sharing based upon team revenues.

by jtmorgan on Nov 22, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Same here

And I think they’re already doing that to a degree. Free agency is for the most part wasted money. Look at the top 10 MVP candidates for this season in both leagues. One – Lance Berkman – was a free agent addition.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 22, 2011 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Ya my problems with it come from the leaked reports.

2007 Payroll $36.5MM Revenue Sharing $39.5MM
2008 Payroll $56MM Revenue Sharing $35.5MM

That doesn’t give an incentive for spending on their big-league team with arb raises causing you to to be taxed in a sort for increasing their payroll at all from the bottom. Projecting those to the 2009 and 2010 payroll levels make it very easy to see why the Rays can’t afford to go that big on a consistant basis.

Lance Berkman wasn’t even a big FA having only been signed for a 1 yr $8MM deal so it really shows how big time talent has to be acquired.

by jtmorgan on Nov 22, 2011 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I would have liked to see them take an NFL-like schedule. If you win your division you play a tougher schedule the next year.

So, if it’s ALE vs NLE, then the Yankees would get something like 6 games vs the Phillies and 3 vs the Mets. The O’s, on the other hand, would get 6 vs Mets, 3 vs Phillies.

where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you

by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Nov 23, 2011 7:41 AM EST reply actions  

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