The Rays Tank: Reactions To The Jaso-Lueke Trade

by Steve Slowinski on Nov 28, 2011 8:04 AM EST in The Rays Tank

Rays Talk

The big news right now is obviously the John Jaso-Josh Lueke trade, and a wide range of people have already chimed in on it. If you're looking for some Monday morning reading, here are a couple different takes to get you started:

J.C. Mitchell wrote about the trade over at MLB Dirt, and he talked with a Seattle-based writer to get a scouting report on Lueke. It's a good overall take on the trade, and I appreciated learning about Lueke's pitch repertoire.

Over at SB Nation Tampa Bay, Brad looked at the trade and asked Does The John Jaso Trade Make Jose Molina A Starter? My guess is Molina's body can't hold up to an entire season's grind anymore, but I don't have a problem with him getting the vast majority of the starts at catcher. Even if his offense is pitiful, I'm already in love with his defense.

Speaking of defense, Matthew Carruth at Lookout Landing compiled Jaso's defensive ratings from the catcher defensive studies that have been done recently: plate blocking, plate framing, and caught stealing rate. I knew he was bad at defense from watching him, but I don't think I had a full appreciation of how bad before looking at the numbers. I'll have more on this later once I finish crunching some numbers myself.

MLB Chatter

In other news, there was a great guest post over at FanGraphs about why teams shouldn't overpay relievers. Alex Lewin works at Baseball Info Solutions, and the post itself is a fantastic read.

If you like advanced baseball stats, there's an article at the Montreal Gazette about something else that might interest you: advanced hockey stats. Trying to evaluate hockey players is a whole other world from baseball and it makes for a unique challenge, but there are still fellow nerds out there looking to understand the game better.

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Let's hope this trade paves the way for a return of Kelly Shoppach

And thank God Friedman and Maddon didn’t even allow John Jaso into their ST camp. This freakin dude was awful.

Any Rays fan that would want either Lobaton or Chirinos catching 100 games next season instead of Shop/Molina doesn’t think much of the team’s chances

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by sternfan1 on Nov 28, 2011 8:16 AM EST reply actions

Make the case for Shoppach being demonstrably better than Lobaton

After what I saw of Chirinos, I’m fine with him needing more time to get his footwork and release in order, but I’m having a hard time separating Lobaton & Shoppach considering Molina replaces Shoppach’s work behind the dish and then some.

Since joining the Rays, he’s had 155 PA’s vs LHP & has a slash line of .336/.396/.486 against them within that small sample size after being rather poor against them with the Padres. Either he’s made a change in his swing as a righty or he’s had some small sample size fortune. Lobaton also had a .411 OBP last season in Durham in the platoon situation he was used in with Chirinos. I’m willing to give him the chance on the job and pocket the $2M (assuming Shoppach has a floor of $2.5M) and use it elsewhere on the roster.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions

I'll play

I don’t dispute anything you just posted about Lobaton. He’d be great on a team that already had a 100+ game reliable starting catcher and he can ease his way in and maybe even end up taking more of a load.

I’ll defer to “what Joe Maddon and Andrew Friedman” would do argument.

I don’t see Lobaton being offered the chance at the role of 80+ game catcher nor do I see Molina getting 90+ games at catcher. I do see the Rays looking for a catcher that could split time with Molina and having Lobaton ready to come up if an injury occurs.

This is just my opinion as to the direction the Rays will go.

by MrNegative1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions

Molina hasn't caught more than 81 games in his career - and I don't expect that to change

Let’s assume one or both get hurt during the season since that’s what the team has had to deal with the past few seasons.

Are you comfortable with:

Molina – 70 games
Lobaton – 50 games
Chirinos/others – 42 games?

I’d love to get a Ramon Hernandez, but when Barajas is getting a $4M deal on the open market, that’s just not good news for a budget-minded club.

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:43 AM EST up reply actions

I would be most comfortable

with Shoppach at 85 games, Molina at 40 games and then Lobaton/Chirinos the injury time/September call up.

That’s just me.

by MrNegative1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions

$1.8M is a big dollar figure for a guy playing 25% of the time though. Seems like they have bigger plans for his usage

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions

oops

I meant Molina at 70 games!

Shoppach at 85 games.

With Lobaton/Chirinos sprinkled in due to injury/September games.

Give or take 10 games on both Molina and Shoppach.

I’d rather go long in the tooth on this roster at C/UT/OF than go with any of the kids at the outset.

Kids come up as needed.

by MrNegative1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions

I agree that I think these moves portend

another move at C — whether that’s a trade (Iannetta?) or a FA signing (R. Hernandez?), I don’t know, but I doubt AF is done here.

by AndrewTorrez on Nov 28, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions

I didn't know the Durham Bulls were now called the Rays

Since joining the Rays, he’s had 155 PA’s vs LHP & has a slash line of .336/.396/.486 against them

Lobaton has had exactly 39 PA as a Ray and 56 total in his MLB career, but let’s compare that to what Shoppach has done

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by sternfan1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions

the Rays' org

Shoppach is a guy you have called a failed signing as recently as late summer and now you are his staunchest defender. What changed?

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions

I don't recall saying that besides he was aqyired in a trade

Also listening to Andrew and Joe in their post season presser, i heard nothing but praise about Shop and would be surprised if we didn’t make an offer

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by sternfan1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions

probably like Damon

there is a framework in place for a deal. Shoppach and Damon are both out there seeing if they can do better. If not, the Rays will bring them both back.

by MrNegative1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions

Let's hope so. The Rays have substantially upgraded the C with the Molina signing and getting Shop makes us solid there

Joe loves Damon and isn’t afraid to let the world know

This team won 91 games, so tinkering not imploding is what’s needed

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by sternfan1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions

Every move Friedman made with a couple exceptions failed (Kotch, Farsnworth)
1-Manny

2- Dan Jo

3- Brignac

4- Shop/Jaso

5- Barty trade

follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Jul 26, 2011 11:11 AM EDT actions

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions

Yep the catching tandem of Jaso and Shop TOGETHER was not good

basically because Jaso flamed offensively and defensively, and as we knew Shop had a guarantee for last season Jaso needed to go

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions

Some of your best spin yet

Still enjoy your passion though

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions

aren't opinions dynamic

not static?

Don’t they shift like the wind blows from day to day?

Isn’t it silly to pull a post from July 26 and apply it to someone’s thoughts today?

Don’t most fans opinions change?

At some point this silly pulling peoples old posts from Twitter to make them look bad as they are probably out of context with time passing has got to come to an end….right?

by MrNegative1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions

All for opinions changing, but hearing why they did brings true value to it

It could open up the minds of others to hear how someone who typically is entrenched in his opinions of players changed his mind over the final 2 months of the season.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions

I don't think you have to work too hard

to pull up ridiculous flip-flopping for a guy who spent the 2010 offseason clamoring for the Rays to release (!) Shields.

by AndrewTorrez on Nov 28, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions

I'm just trying to encourage discussion

If he feels so strongly about retaining Shoppach now as he did for calling him a failure in late July, I’d like to see the thought process behind that so that me and maybe others can see something we may be overlooking.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions

Not for Cason, he makes a living out of it

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by sternfan1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions

wait the Barty trade failed?

just because Brignac sucked offensively, doesn’t mean Bartlett wouldn’t have been bad as well with worse defense. Not too mention Gomes was arguably our best reliever starting Sept 2nd last year.

by Dbullsfan on Nov 28, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions

yeah, the Bartlett trade remains a steal

Rays give up the opportunity to pay him $16.5MM guaranteed to produce a 76 OPS+ while his defense declines. In return, they get a solid ROOGY with upside (Gomes), a fringe lefty specialist (Ramos), a fringe utility infield prospect (Figueroa), and a guy who throws hard and might learn how to pitch (Russell). Still a huge win.

by AndrewTorrez on Nov 28, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions

well Russel isn't in the Org anymore so he was a waste but the other 3 who knows

by Dbullsfan on Nov 28, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions

I'm glad to be rid of Jaso, but the timing and optics of this move are just awful

Really bad move by the RFO.

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by nomoredevil on Nov 28, 2011 8:27 AM EST reply actions

Umm, care to explain?

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Nov 28, 2011 8:31 AM EST up reply actions

Ahh, I see your bit in the other thread.

I tend to think the everyone’s overreacting to how this will get perceived by the public. The response to the move on the #Rays hashtag on twitter was pretty overwhelmingly positive last night, and even if the talk show hosts have a field day, so what? The story will blow over in a few days, and it’ll be largely forgotten about by the time ST rolls around.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Nov 28, 2011 8:34 AM EST up reply actions

Well, it certainly won't be a national story like the other recent sexual abuse stories in the news

But it doesn’t have to be national news influence the casual Tampa Bay baseball fan which make up the bulk of the fanbase. Face it, the only people interested over the weekend (especially thanksgiving weekend) are hardcore baseball fans. Most of the general public will be just finding out about it today, and I’m pretty sure their response will be a good deal less positive.

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by nomoredevil on Nov 28, 2011 8:41 AM EST up reply actions

Frankly...

I think the initial reactions to the deal were mainly due to the fact most of the #Rays group was naive to the entire Lueke story. Hell, even Cork’s initial post about the trade failed to mention anything about Lueke’s backstory and once Topkin tweeted out that info, it started snowballing.

I knew the story, but unfairly to Cory Luebke’s rep, I always get the names confused and have to double-check anything I type before commenting on the situation.

I have a daughter so my view on this situation is going to be different than most and its pretty well known I have a tough time separating the on and off-field crap.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions

To be fair, the Mariners were also naive to the Lueke story when they acquired him from the Rangers

Depending on who you believe anyway.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2012784518_lueke02.html

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by nomoredevil on Nov 28, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions

Yea, the details are very mixed with that story

Rangers insist they’ve said they’d rework in a separate deal but at the same time, an org should have made a simple google search part of their homework when doing a player evaluation/background check

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:51 AM EST up reply actions

Wonder if the Rangers are still open to making that deal

Maybe we could work something out. I’m sure AF could be convinced to take a chance on that oft-injured centerfielder of theirs.

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by nomoredevil on Nov 28, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions

THose stories aren't pretty and can be tough to swallow.

I know my hope is my daughter won’t be at a bar making out with multiple people and drunk enough to black or pass out. I’ve had nights in my youth where my recollections were fuzzy at best. Its a scary situation for a woman to put herself in. Who knows what happened and what was consensual versus not. If she was truly attacked its awful. Based on the plea agreement, I think there is a fair amount of doubt as to the nature of the events of that night.

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by FreeZorilla on Nov 28, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions

But the contents of the q-tip swab from a inside a certain orifice leave no doubt

If she was willing to press charges, he’d be pitching in the California Penal League right now.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions

What do you mean?

People engage in activity in said oriface all the time? It may not be your bag, but its not abnormal.

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by FreeZorilla on Nov 28, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions

One normally remembers opening the backdoor for someone

The guy got a very fortunate break from this situation and here’s to hoping he’s learned from it and changed his decision making. We haven’t heard anything since the incident from him so he appears to be walking the straight and narrow line since then and good for him.

I’m not much for the narratives related to player stories, but this one is not one I feel comfortable just glossing over.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions

Isn't the arguement whether it was consensual or not?

It didn’t go to trial, and, from what I have read, I doubt she would have had much of a case.

by mr. maniac on Nov 28, 2011 11:03 AM EST up reply actions

Yes, it plead out to false imprisonment with violence

Even the gray area between that and the probable charge is an uncomfortable one.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions

True.

I feel that on a legal sense we are being a bit harsh on him, but in a moral sense it is fair to be extremely cautious and a bit upset.

by mr. maniac on Nov 28, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions

Completely agree there

The moral highground is not a place I feel comfortable taking anytime as lord knows I have enough of my own problems.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions

I think the additionally troubling aspect

is that Lueke hasn’t ever shown any remorse about it.

by AndrewTorrez on Nov 28, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions

That is very troubling for me.

I’m curious to know more about his backround (when he was younger) and see if that had any impact. I hope Joe can work some magic on him and he realizes that people are willing to give him a second chance, and that HE should be grateful for that.

by mr. maniac on Nov 28, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions

I don't think it is a matter of glossing over it.

I think it is asking whether any one incident is sufficient to define a person. The question is whether this was an isolated event, whether if it was it tells us something fundamental about Lueke.

Question: How many of us would want to judged by the worst thing we have ever done?

by bobr on Nov 28, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions

1st question you propose is the most important one

As far as the 2nd one, like it or not, that’s how things are with some people and the fault in that relationship lies with the person who made the bad choice.

Hopefully that eventually just goes away and people quit judging on what they’re hearing and actually get to know me and they can make their own opinion

That’s not a very contrite statement. I want to do the latter, but that the first part of his statement is not terribly endearing.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions

I'm hoping that statement was more of a reflection of his poor speaking skills than his actual opinion on the matter.

by mr. maniac on Nov 28, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions

that's a fair point

by AndrewTorrez on Nov 28, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions

The above two are such great posts I can hardly stand it.

@RealNolenBailey

by Hatfield on Nov 28, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions

I've never had my backdoor opened, so I wouldn't know

but for some woman its the orifice of choice, so no it wouldn’t stick out for every woman. And I would imagine for some who wanted to explore, losing your inhibition in a drunken stupor might is a likely first go around. Particularly with a “ballplayer”.

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by FreeZorilla on Nov 28, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions

when you're unconscious?

by AndrewTorrez on Nov 28, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions

Yep, the media will always find a negative narrative. Offseason is always painful.

“Cheap owners, attendance, blah blah” I’m with you Slow. This is very old news.

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by FreeZorilla on Nov 28, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions

Which would you fault the media for more?

Bringing it up or not bringing it up? As Transplanted pointed out last night, 1 in 4 assaults of young women go unreported so pretending like this never happened is a disservice.

Maybe its just the father of a daughter in me talking but sleeping on it still didn’t make me feel any better about the acquisition.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions

Its an old story. If this happened this offseason it would be a relevent conversation.

As I state below, there is a lot of doubt that can be at play. He’s no saint and not someone I would want my daughter around, but I also don’t want my daughter making out with multiple men at a bar and going home with them. It doesn’t mean she deserved any harm, but it was poor decision making.

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by FreeZorilla on Nov 28, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions

Yup, that sums my line of thought on this too.

And I’m shocked that guys and girls in their early 20s can make poor drunken decisions. Shocked.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Nov 28, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions

I've made some poor drunken decisions in my day as well, but I never pleaded out to them either

Nor lied to investigators about my actions.

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions

Yep

I’ve made lots of stupid decision, some that involved alcohol and some for which I was completely sober. However, none of them involved rape … er … “false imprisonment with violence.”

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by nomoredevil on Nov 28, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions

To be fair, there is a thin line and it hasn't been confirmed that he has crossed it.

by mr. maniac on Nov 28, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions

He plead guilty, that's not confirmation?

I’m a firm believer in fine lines, but I really don’t see one here. He had sex with her. She was either unconscious, or so drunk she couldn’t remember it (which is likely so drunk that she was incapable of consenting.) This is no different than climbing behind the wheel of a car. “Having a bad night” is not a legitmate excuse for ruining someone else’s life.

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by nomoredevil on Nov 28, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions

He never pleaded guilty for rape.

He did for false imprisonment with violence. Because it didn’t go to trial, it is all very hazy,

by mr. maniac on Nov 28, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions

If you faced a hazy hard to define rape charge, you just might have

Thats a terrifying charge to be staring down at trial.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Nov 28, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions

Truth will set you free

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions

Molina deal done - $1.8M for 2012 plus team option

Savings of $1.4M to what Shoppach was due had his option been picked up

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:38 AM EST reply actions

Great deal, now let's give Shop a one year $2.5m w/an option and let's go

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions

Barajas just got $4M being the better hitter and only slightly worse defender

If Shoppach signs a $2.5M deal, it’s either due to the fact he and his agent misread the market or others thought his defensive efforts in controlling the running game were more Shields’ pickoff move than any improvement in Kelly’s footwork and release.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions

Speaking of Shields' pickoff, wonder if the Rays first baseman last season helped up his total

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by sternfan1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions

Ideally, a left-handed first baseman is better for any pickoff play

That’s a downside of the thought of moving Joyce to 1st, or any right-handed 1B for that matter.

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions

I'll keep dreaming of a Pena return

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 28, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions

It wouldn't be a drop-off defensively in the slightest

Maddon said last season the two were very similar charging balls and moving side to side but Pena was one of the best on balls back over his head while Kotchman struggled in that area.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions

Alonso, Smoak, and Morrison are lefties...I'm just saying

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 28, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter

by AndrewTorrez on Nov 28, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions

or

Kelly had better footwork and release because he wasn’t playing on a recently surgically repaired right knee? First time those knees were healthy in 3 years had to help?

I’d love to talk to Shields about the evolution of his pick off move. Just to hear how he advanced from last to this year.

by MrNegative1 on Nov 28, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions

Shields mentioned that Dick Bosman was huge for him

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110526&content_id=19596428&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions

great article

some very interesting dialogue between Chastain and Shields

by MrNegative1 on Nov 28, 2011 10:04 AM EST up reply actions

Yep

Thought it was a very insightful piece

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions

random thought

if the Mariners sign Fielder, would that make Smoak available? I’d put him near the top of the list, despite his struggles, as a young 1B to target.

by raysfaninminnesota on Nov 28, 2011 10:01 AM EST reply actions

I'll get behind you on this

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 28, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions

with consent ofcourse

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 28, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions

oof

@RealNolenBailey

by Hatfield on Nov 28, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions

As the guy they got for Lee, I'd have to imagine his price tag would still be rather high

As they could always play one of them at DH until something works out. The strength the Rays have right now to trade from in pitching is the one thing the Mariners have no need for as their organization is loaded with talented arms in Felix, Pineda, Hultzen, Walker, Paxton, Campos, and then add in the upside of Furbush to the mix.

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions

They have Mike Carp also

They would need to trade either Smoak or Carp if they sign Fielder.

The M’s do have incredible potential in their rotation but they don’t have MLB depth as of the moment. Hultz and Paxton might be ready by mid-season.

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 28, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions

Mike Carp is still a distant 3rd

The M’s depth at this moment isn’t critical since they’re not a 2012 contender. Why trade away value to get pitching that’s only going to further crowd an already crowded situation? I’d just sign more slagarms and throw them in there to hold the place for the youth. Sonnanstine would be a perfect fit for that role and park if he wants to be a starting pitcher again.

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions

You are correct that they are not likely to contend

But there is pressure for their front office to not have the team be so miserable with attendance dropping and ownership getting impatient. They’d want to be decent at least.

With MLB-ready starting pitching in mind as a need, plus the Safeco advantage given to lefty pitches, I would think Jack Z would want Alex Torres rather than Niemann or Davis.

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 28, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions

To extend the theory, that would mean dealing Cliff Lee for Alex Torres & John Jaso

ouch

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions

good trade!

by AndrewTorrez on Nov 28, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions

Sandy Kaz with a good writeup on Lueke

http://t.co/zNmVluoJ

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 12:02 PM EST reply actions

I honestly never knew Jason was Sandy.

Strange how he can be so mild tempered while writing but so tempermental while posting. He was banned, right?

by mr. maniac on Nov 28, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions

Nope....self-banishment over the OTT debacle

He’s welcome back here any time. He was removed from the writing staff, but his posting privileges are intact

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions

Not sure what people on here see in the M's GM

He has done nothing but stay in the cellar the last two years. The farm is ok, the team itself is less than average. He choked when it came to the Cliff Lee trade. Milton Bradley was a fail, Chone Figgins was a fail(although I am not sure he signed both). Same with the Pirates GM. Team is not very good and the farm is ok, but it’s not because of the GM, it’s because of the new dedication for higher amateur spending.

by Dome Biscuit on Nov 28, 2011 12:06 PM EST reply actions

I actually like their farm quite a bit.

I’m a huge Hultzen fan.

by mr. maniac on Nov 28, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions

yes - their farm moves are strong

His major league contract moves, not so strong

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by Jason Collette on Nov 28, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions

There is staying in the cellar Omar Minaya/Ed Wade way and then there's the somewhat Chris Antonetti way

Jack Z has made some good trade and good drafts. Several moves just haven’t work out (Figgins disaster was totally unforeseen). But what he has done with the M’s farm system is remarkable considering how much damage Bill Bavasi inflicted on it.

by Ben Tumbling on Nov 28, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions

I do love the TBO headline from earlier today

“Jaso traded for a reliever”

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by nomoredevil on Nov 28, 2011 12:50 PM EST reply actions

Josh Lueke: Taylor Guerrieri ain't so bad, huh?

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Nov 28, 2011 2:04 PM EST reply actions

I haven't read all the details yet I'm going to get to those in a minute

but if it is as bad as some of you make it out to be, wouldn’t MLB ban him from the sport? I’m not saying the guy is innocent of all chargers or a saint but if the guy is allowed in the league why not give him a chance in ST and at least get an idea of what his character is, if he turns out to be a total douchebag than cut him and what we end up trading Jaso for Cash, hell some people here might have been okay with giving another team cash just to take Jaso.

by Dbullsfan on Nov 28, 2011 3:24 PM EST reply actions