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The Rays Tank: Ryan Braun and PEDs; Wade Davis Trade Comps

MLB Chatter

As I'm sure you heard, the big news in baseball this weekend was of the unsavory sort: Ryan Braun has apparently tested positive for a prohibited substance. That statement should come with a qualifier, though, because A) he tested positive for a "prohibited substance" and not a steroid per se, and B) it's possible that the test was a fake positive and that Braun actually wasn't taking a banned substance. His sample was collected in October, and the first results to come back had testosterone levels that were "...insanely high, the highest ever for anyone who has ever taken a test, twice the level of the highest test ever taken" (NY Daily News).

Everyone has been reiterating how foolproof the PED test is, and that may be the case, but every scientific test has the potential to return an extraneous result. There are too many variables that you can't control, and there could have been any number of reasons why Braun's results turned up funky: bad equipment, human error, damaged samples...who knows? But when you have a result that's such an obvious and extreme outlier, it's reasonable to withhold a sliver of doubt and demand a retest.

So I won't be judging Braun yet, not until we hear the finals results of the re-test (if we hear them at all). I'm sure many people will, though, and it makes me question the journalistic ethics of this news. If you heard from a reliable source that Braun had tested positive but he was appealing the test due to funky results, do you run with the story? Is it responsible to print the story, tarnishing someone's reputation before the conclusive proof is necessarily in? At what point do you feel comfortable enough with your source and the information before running with it?

I'm not saying any of this to judge the person that broke this story, as I don't know if there's a perfect answer here. I tend to take a very conservative view in publishing stories, and I know others are probably less exacting. And you could argue that this is big news even if it is a false positive, certainly. Personally, though, I think this is yet another example of why our modern news cycle does not deal with science well. The news demands breaking, definitive news, while scientists put error bars around everything and couch their words carefully. It's a poor fit that leads to all sorts of misreported news.

EDIT: Here's a really good take on the testing process and result from Will Carrol at SI. I just learned a heck of a lot from it.

Rays Talk

Anyway, rant over. This weekend, the A's traded Trevor Cahill to the Diamondbacks for three prospects: Jarrod Parker, Collin Cowgill, and Ryan Cook. This is noteworthy because some people (*ahem*Ken Rosenthal) are viewing it as a potential preview of what Wade Davis could net. Cahill is younger and better than Davis, but their peripherals are similar-ish and Davis is signed to a more team-friendly contract.

As much as I hate to admit it, Rosenthal has a point here; other teams are likely going to look at the Cahill deal as a potential comparison for Davis. In a fair and perfect world, there's no way that Davis should return more in a trade than Cahill. I know Friedman will milk his value as much as he possibly can by waiting on the market and trusting on other teams getting desperate, but this seems like yet another sign that we should keep our expectations modest.

While Jarrod Parker is a legit prospect and has good upside, it seem that most analysts aren't too enthused with Oakland's return in this deal. If Oakland could only bring back one top pitching prospect and two spare (but useful) parts, what hope do the Rays have of bringing in a young impact bat like Yonder Alonso or Logan Morrison?

One rumor from this weekend suggested the Rangers want to send Mitch Moreland to the Rays for Wade Davis, and while I'm not a fan of Moreland (he has upside, but he's still kinda meh), he may be more along the lines of what we should expect for Davis. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for more, but we're probably better off keeping our expectations modest.

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will preface their comments about Braun with the “if found to be true” or some other tempering commentary and then rip the athlete to shreds as if already 100% guilty. At the end of the commentary they’ll spend a sentence or two on “if found to be an error” and suggest the test need to be changed.

For the most part, I think fans are guilty of the same thing. As of now Braun has tested positive and fans aren’t the type to hold up on their comments until all the facts are known. Fans opinions are often fluid and change with each new side of the story is known.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

By the way, which journalists in your opinion (Steve Slow or others) have been the most irresponsible in covering this story and which have done the best fair write up?

by MrNegative1 on Dec 12, 2011 8:35 AM EST reply actions  

Will Carroll's SI piece was extremely informative

I’ve tended to ignore the other rushes to judgment but I didn’t quite care for how ESPN covered the story or how someone leaked this to the press. The leaker has an agenda and while I’m all for testing, confidentiality to protect due process needs to be adhered to.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 12, 2011 8:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately

breaking these stories drives hits to web-sites which drives revenue.

I’d love to suggest that an ESPN, Yahoo, or other media outlet hold out on these stories (if anyone knows me they know how old school and rigid I am) until there is more certainty about the facts but I’ve come to realize that a false report doesn’t really hurt a reporting agency.

Do you think the benefit of the rush to a website is ever tempered by an erroneous report? (Just asking)

by MrNegative1 on Dec 12, 2011 8:49 AM EST up reply actions  

rush to judgment serves the purpose you put forth

I’d ask these same people how they’d react if it were one of their drug tests from their employer that hit the public like this. The ONLY way this news can hit the airwaves is if someone leaks it. Then, it takes someone giving the GO command to run with it.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 12, 2011 8:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I agree

But the whole find a leak (Bonds/Sheffield/Giambi Grand Jury Testimony, Marlins fiscal books, etc) and then finding a publisher to print it is now a common part of the media.

All that matters is being first to the story. Break the news first. No concern for the damage it may do. Easier to walk back an erroneous report then to miss out on the initial sensationalism of the report.

If an editor of a news web-site is doing a pious job and holding back and routinely gets beat to the punch and hits to that web-site suffer, that editor may be looking for a new gig.

Crazy, but the negative consequences to the athlete (in this case) by running this story is not even a variable anymore. It’s simply, get this story out there and be first. The attitude of “we can always walk this back” doesn’t apply to the damage done by the story.

by MrNegative1 on Dec 12, 2011 8:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I think that's the big problem...being "wrong" isn't really that big of a deal for the major players.

ESPN can run with something like this to their heart’s content, and if it turns out to be false, whatever. Their following isn’t going to take a hit or anything.

Meanwhile, if you’re small and trying to make a name for yourself, this sort of a juicy rumor might seem too good to pass up.

None of this leads to good journalistic results, though. I wish this sort of a story would just get sat on, but sadly, all it takes is one person with looser standards to break the story and then everyone is going to rush to report on it.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 12, 2011 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

rip PlayOnWords

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 12, 2011 9:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I am reasonably sure that with something with as high stakes as a PED test that affects someone's earnings, they would use multiple controls before announcing a result one way or the other.

that’s why i’m inclined to believe he juiced. however, it could come up that his testosterone levels were elevated for some other reason, but i can’t think of a legitimate reason why they would be.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 12, 2011 9:03 AM EST reply actions  

But they didn't announce it. It's still being reviewed by MLB and the story got leaked somehow.

At least, that’s my understanding of the situation.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 12, 2011 9:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, this is correct

MLB procedure has announcements not being made until the appeals process is made – as Manny’s bombshell was dropped on the Rays. The team may have known before hand, but nothing hit the press until the announcement was made.

Braun has a reputation of being a gigantic douchebag with some people so this could be a spin-off from that. Luckily for the source, the press doesn’t have to reveal their source and can protect the identity of the leaker.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 12, 2011 9:13 AM EST up reply actions  

makes me think

When was the last big story that wasn’t “leaked” initially?

The Genesis of a big story usually begins with a Rumor and leaked information while we wait official word, correct?

by MrNegative1 on Dec 12, 2011 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Friendman seen eating dinner at Sonny's with Arte Moreno!

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 12, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Initial reports are he went for the balsamic on the salad bar.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 12, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Great job DRB, h/ts and r/as all around!

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 12, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

you forgot the SRQ special

slllllluuuuuuuuuuuuurp

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 12, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Sickels still speaks glowingly about Parker

see here

Tommy John surgery was eventually required, and Parker missed all of 2010 rehabbing. He came back in 2011 at full strength and had a fine year for Mobile, going 11-8, 3.79 with a 112/55 K/BB in 131 innings, allowing 112 hits with a 1.63 GO/AO. The numbers this year were solid rather than spectacular, but scouting reports have been glowing. Rumors that he would be promoted to Arizona for September haven’t materialized yet, but we should definitely see him sometime next year.

And here
Listed at 6-1, 195 pounds, he’s put on about 15 pounds of muscle and strength since high school. His key pitch is a hard sinking fastball, working at 92-95 and hitting 96-97 at its best. He’s lost no velocity since the surgery, although he’s still working on command refinements.

And here
His slider was his out-pitch pre-surgery. Scouting reports indicate that he’s not throwing it as much as he used to, but it still rates as a plus pitch. His changeup has improved a great deal, ranking plus at its best, and he’ll mix in some curves on occasion, giving him four pitches to work with. He’s especially tough on right-handed hitters, holding them to a .209 average with just two homers this year.

Parker has the stuff to be a number two starter if his command is there. With a year of good health and solid pitching under his belt, expect to hear a lot about him heading into Spring Training, 2012.

most scouts think he’ll develop into a rotation anchor as an ideal number two starter.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 12, 2011 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think that's likely anymore, sadly.

They seem to have wizened up.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 12, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

?

Parker is an upper-eschelon pitching prospect, and Cook and Cowgill are legitimate prospects. This is a really good haul for Cahill. I don’t understand anyone who doesn’t view it that way.

It’s not as good a haul as the Rays got for Garza (or the Orioles for Bedard) but a) those were exceptional deals, and b) neither Cahill nor Davis are as good as either Garza or Bedard.

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 12, 2011 10:05 AM EST reply actions  

If Davis is traded to the Reds i'd like to see Alonso and someone like Frazier.

I still don’t think we can trade a proven talent for an unknown in Alonso straight up. Yes he had a great September but the league gets watered down with fringe types at the end of the year. Especially when you are playing teams that are already dead and buried.

by Peter Piontek on Dec 12, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

agreed

I was mostly just disagreeing with Steve Slow’s take that somehow the Cahill haul is bad for the Rays.

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 12, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, the hull is great.

Parker himself is considered as good or better than Alonso or Grandal.

by mr. maniac on Dec 12, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Sickels and BA both rate Parker higher than Alonso.

I think Davis for Alonso would be more or less, a pretty even deal.

The problem I have with both Alonso and LoMo is are their clubs trading them as LFs or 1B. With how their defense has been reported and what the metrics show in SSS, they are both bad to very bad in the OF. Even with their bats, they would probably struggle to be anything more than 2 WAR players and that might be generous. If the Reds and Marlins are serious about keeping both guys in LF than they should trade them now while they still have some value.

by ReyL on Dec 12, 2011 10:41 AM EST reply actions  

To all the Parker / Alonso comparisons.

It’s worth remembering this when talking about prospect packages:

In short, pitching prospects are worth a heck of a lot less than position prospects…even if they’re top pitching prospects. So Parker being rated higher than Alonso means little; he’s still gonna be a heck of a lot tougher to pry away.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 12, 2011 10:49 AM EST reply actions  

Okay, researched this a bit more.

2011 Preseason BA ranks for both:

Alonso: #73, $14.2m value
Parker: #33, $15.9m value

So that’s better than I thought, touche. Of course, we have another year of data now and since BA hasn’t released their new list yet, it’s tough to say how much these rankings have changed since then. Parker fell to #40 in their midseason update, but even if he fell much further, he’d probably be roughly comparable with Alonso (unless Alonso bounced up considerably higher based on his end of the season).

Of course, I still don’t think Davis is as good a pitcher as Cahill, so a Davis-Alonso straightup 1-for-1 is still the best we can possibly hope for.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 12, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

but Parker was only one part of the haul

the deal becomes pretty similar if it is a 1-for-1 deal instead of a 3-for-1 deal, doesn’t it?

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 12, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Completely disagree here, Steve.

This is assuming that those who rank the prospect are top notch idiots. I concur. What you just showed recaps many cases, not individual cases. It shows that hitting prospects have a better track record and should be targeted, not that a #50 overall hitting prospect is worth more than a #45 pitching prospect.

Those numbers are fine and all, but they are merely pointing out the inconsistencies of pitching prospects compared to hitting prospects. Since top prospect lists attempt to assign a ranking value on prospects (how much they are worth at the time), I think they should be used instead of a list that shows which propsects are underrated.

by mr. maniac on Dec 12, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Let me put it this way......

Would you consider trading Matt Moore for Yonder Alonso and think that it is fairly even? Of course not. The numbers say you probably should, but that isn’t how this works.

by mr. maniac on Dec 12, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

These numbers were calculated based on how actual GMs completed actual trades.

So you can disagree with them all you want, but you’ll need to show some actual research that can disprove them before I listen. I think players at the top end of the spectrum will throw things off (players like Moore or Stras or Trout), but this list is a good approximation of prospect trade value 95% of the time.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 12, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

If you're interested, here are some article for you to read more on the subject:

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/7/20/950254/which-is-better-compensation
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-bright-side-of-losing-santana/

Actually, the rates were calculated based on the average prospect contributions for that ranking. It’s just that these values also line up very closely with actual trades when you break them down that way. Again, agree or disagree, they’re better approximations than just pulling stuff from thin air.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 12, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't have the time right now to read those articles.

But are the numbers you provided based on actual trades or the average prospect contributions? If the former, than I apologize for the misunderstanding.

by mr. maniac on Dec 12, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

It's the later, I misspoke initially.

They shouldn’t bet taken as gospel, obviously. But we’ve used them for the past couple offseasons on judging trades and previewing moves, and they always model reality quite well.

I guess you could say there’s a reason that this research has held up well over time. That’s not to say they couldn’t be improved (and I do agree that I think it underestimates how much teams value top pitching prospects…possibly to teams’ detriment). But I challenge you (or anyone really) to come up with a better system.

Actually, that’d be some pretty cool research. It’d theoretically be possible to go back and reverse calculate prospect trade values based on the trade values of players they were traded for. Time intensive, but doable.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 12, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I like the system.

I just think it is better at evaluating trades than forming them, as I am not convinced GMs don’t use it as a case-by-case system.

by mr. maniac on Dec 12, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, agreed there.

It’s not perfect for every scenario. And the numbers came out closer in this regard than I had initially thought they’d be. I think this was a pretty fair clarification.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 12, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, evaluating prospects is always tricky because you need to give them time to reach the majors.

But yeah, it’s old…it’d be nice to see it updated. Or alternatively, for someone to do larger reverse-engineered prospect values. That would be a fascinating other side of the coin.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 12, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

The throw-ins also aren't just throw-ins.

They’re C+ prospects in a very stacked system. The comparables would be a Lenny Linske and Brandon Guyeresque players in our system (I like Guyer more than Cowgill, but the difference isn’t a ton). Using the Wang numbers they’re worth

by rglass44 on Dec 12, 2011 12:39 PM EST reply actions  

Using the Wang numbers they’re worth...

$2 million. That means the return was about $18 million or almost to a top 50 hitter.

by rglass44 on Dec 12, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

It depends on how you value Alonso. He's probably a one or two win player.

So his value pretty much far exceeds Davis. If you consider him a back-end of the top 100 prospect then Davis needs to be considered a 1.5 to 2 win pitcher (which, frankly, is hard to do).

by rglass44 on Dec 12, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

The trade calulator has Davis as about $3 mill in surplus value over his contract (voiding the options obviously) as a 1 win pitcher.

If you consider him a $1.5 win pitcher, you only pick up the first option and he’s worth around $10 mill. in surplus value. To get anything attractive he really needs to be seen as a 2-win pitcher in this methodology. That gets him to $20 million, and you’d only void the final year.

by rglass44 on Dec 12, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

i really feel strongly that the calculator undervalues starting pitching.

and it can’t take into account moving from the ALE to the NLC…

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 12, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Davis' trade value

After seeing what Oakland got I think moreland is about as good as it will get. I would pull the trigger if I am AF. A few days ago there was a couple of us calling for that deal

by gatrmf on Dec 12, 2011 1:43 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

A's got a top pitching prospect

Okay, they got a very good one, I can’t call him a top prospect when he wasn’t even the teams best (Bauer) but I personally think they did okay and I don’t see why that trade takes the possibility of Yonder away.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 12, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

i quite like moreland

only 25 i think and think his power will develop. Think it should be a move if others fall through though.

by OneTonneBaby on Dec 12, 2011 2:56 PM EST reply actions  

Blind faith possibly

Not sure, he hit 16 in his first full season and i dont think he was a full time player, and only 25. Probably not a great fit with the Rays, being left handed and all but i think he offers depth at the position and DH

by OneTonneBaby on Dec 13, 2011 6:02 AM EST up reply actions  

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