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Extension Candidates: Jennings, Upton, and Joyce

Picking up where we left off yesterday, let's look at the extension prospects for three offensive Rays today: Desmond Jennings, B.J. Upton, and Matt Joyce.

Star-divide

Desmond Jennings

Since the Rays waited so long to call him up this past season, Jennings still has six full seasons of team control left. It's possible that he might qualify for Super Two status under the new CBA rules, but that seems unlikely since he got called up so late in July. As such, let's look real quick at the other extensions for Evan Longoria and Matt Moore, the only two players the Rays have extended for all six years of their team control:

Longo3_medium
*The final three years of each deal are team options.

As you can see, the Rays were willing to make a slightly larger and longer commitment to Longoria; his deal was guaranteed for six seasons at $17.5 million, and Moore came in a year less and $3.5m poorer. This is probably a result pitchers being inherently riskier investments than position players. They're tougher to forecast and injuries can be more of a concern, so generally speaking, it's okay to make a slightly larger investment in a hitter.

That said, Jennings shouldn't expect to get an offer any larger than Moore's. He's reaching the majors at a later age (25 years old in 2012), and he's had numerous injury issues in the past. It's possible that the Rays would be more hesitant to offer him a long term deal due to those injury issues, or that they'd want to start up the team options sooner like Moore.

Carl Crawford signed his extension with the Devil Rays before the new management took over, but the framework for that deal mirrored Longoria's current deal almost to the letter (although it had one fewer team option). Jennings has been compared to Crawford many, many times, so it should be easy for the Rays to draw comparisons between Crawford, Longoria, and Moore when talking with Jennings.

If it was me, I'd offer Jennings something like Moore's current deal (5 years, $14 million), and then tack on two option years. Why only two? Jennings will be 30 during his final year of team control, so the Rays might be able to sell him on an extension by pointing out that this contract would guarantee him money while still making him a free agent in his prime. He could go the Crawford route -- secure your future in case of injuries with your first deal, and then break the bank with your second.

Is he likely to accept such a deal? Eh, tough to say. Jennings also has Boras as his agent, and I can't think of a single Boras client that has signed a contract extension this early in their career. Jenning's injury history might work in the Rays' favor, though, since it makes his future more risky.

B.J. Upton

The Rays have never signed a player to an extension this late in their career. They normally make deals before a player even reaches arbitration for the first time, as they have more leverage then and can make deals that involve a smaller amount of guaranteed money (AKA: less risky).

So I view the idea of signing Upton to an extension as unlikely. Possible, but unlikely. The Rays would have to pay near market rate to sign Upton to a deal right now, as he's going to be a free agent next season, and he's expected to get $7 million in arbitration this season. In other words, there's no reason for him to sign a deal that pays him less than $7 million this season and more than that in future years.

Would signing Upton to a 4 year, $37 million extension be possible? Certainly. Upton is a 3-4 WAR player with the potential for more (yes, he still has potential, I suppose), so signing him for $10 million a year would be below market rate. But still...I can't see the Rays doing that. If Upton got injured or tanked, a guaranteed salary of $10 million a year would be a large handicap on the team (remember Pat Burrell?). Upton also hasn't been particularly well received in the Tampa Bay area, so I'm not sure I see a "hometown discount" in the future.

Matt Joyce

Finally, we reach a promising target. Joyce has all the markers of an ideal extension candidate. He was not a top prospect coming up through the minor leagues, and he reached the majors for good at an older age (he'll be 27 next season). He's an undervalued player by most, yet he still contributed nearly 4 WAR to the Rays last season in only 500 plate appearances. He's got power, speed, plate discipline, athleticism -- he's a great player to have, but the Rays can likely lock him up at a discount.

The Rays have Joyce under team control for four more seasons (one team control, three arbitration), so Ben Zobrist's current extension seems like a near perfect match:

Joyceextension2_medium
*Final two years are team options.

Zobrist signed his contract around the same point of his career that Joyce is currently at. He was one year older, but he was also going into his final year of team control before hitting arbitration. Of course, it's not a perfect fit as both Zobrist and Joyce have had different career paths -- Zobrist exploded out of nowhere, while Joyce has consistently and slowly developed -- but I think the overall fit is good.

The big question, though, is how much Joyce would stand to make in arbitration if he went year to year, and how much of a discount are the Rays getting here. Honestly, this depends on how Joyce develops going forward. He has impressive power and could have hit 25+ home runs if given 600 plate appearances, and those sort of stats are looked upon favorably in arbitration hearings. I would imagine that a low end arbitration comparison for Joyce would be B.J. Upton ($3m, $5m, $7m), while he could make considerably more than that.

So if Joyce were to stagnate, the Rays likely wouldn't save much with this sort of an extension -- although they would still be paying less than market value -- but Joyce is also a safer bet than most players due to his older age and clean development. I could see the Rays spreading the money around a bit more, offering him a four year, $16 million deal with a breakdown of $1m, $3m, $4.5m, $5.5m and two club options with similar totals as Zobrist ($2 million buyout). This would be insurance for Joyce in case of an injury or if he never solves his left-handed pitcher problem, and it'd be a great value contract for the Rays.

Anyway, I've put way too much time and thought into this already. What say you guys?

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I can see a Joyce deal going down at anytime

Jennings will be hard because of Boras. Upton….only if they approve a stadium by the end of 2012….maybe.

I really would love to get Jennings signed, let’s see if Boras allows it.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 13, 2011 3:29 PM EST reply actions  

The biggest obsticle in getting a deal done with either Hellickson or Jennings are the team options.

Looking over extentions like CarGo’s that he signed after 2 years of service, I think Boras will try to get the options guaranteed in order to sell it to his client.

In the end though it would all depend on the player and how risk tolerant they are about their future.

I would be surprised if a Joyce extention isn’t worked out by the end of the offseason looking very similar to Zobrist’s.

by jtmorgan on Dec 13, 2011 3:45 PM EST reply actions  

Maybe with Boras

The options can automatically vest if Jennings/Hellickson achieve certain things. I don’t think Boras will allow us team options but he might budge on incentive laden options.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 13, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Ya, I think it's the one sticking point with dealing with him in particular that might get in the way of getting things done.

Was just a thought after thinking over the Hellickson potential extention last night. The Rays might get it done with vesting options, but I don’t know if the FO would want to set that precedent.

by jtmorgan on Dec 13, 2011 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

So I guess if I had to rank the five players I just profiled in order of likeliness to sign, it'd be something along these lines. Totally subjective:

1. Matt Joyce
.
2a. Desmond Jennings – I’m giving Jennings the slight nod due to his age and injury history.
2b. Jeremy Hellickson
.
.
4. B.J. Upton
.
.
5. David Price

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 13, 2011 3:51 PM EST reply actions  

I'd love that

I’m sure I’m not the only one thinking S-Rod will win the starting shortstop job over Brignac, and if S-Rod stays consistent this year, I definitely foresee an extension on the horizon.

A woman who knows her sports.

by Bucs-RaysChick on Dec 13, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

The positive of signing him

is that he would be extremely cheap right now. I see a lot of improvement coming for him real soon and he wont cost much at all right now.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 13, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

It's easy to see improvement from Sean, he's got the rare combination of speed, range, arm, and power

But the fact is he hasn’t learned contact yet and, although he has the potential to be a monster, odds are pretty decent he never well

by benderbrodriguez on Dec 13, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Then who plays SS?

Not Briggy. Elliot?

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 13, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Brignac will be the everyday SS

we still have time to wait till our prediction post for 2012 but one of mine is Brignac will start 130 games at SS this year. I think he becomes more of the player we were expecting last year, plus defense and a good enough hitter

by Dbullsfan on Dec 13, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree entirely

I’m not even certain Brignac will come back with the bat, but I know that the team isn’t going to ditch a potential elite defensive SS on the basis of 200 bad at-bats.

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 13, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

True, I wouldn't be surprised.

He’s in a similar situation to Joyce — going to be 27 next season, arb eligible after 2012. He hasn’t had as much ML success, though, and the RHP thing is a concern. So I’m not see something coming now unless he’s willing to sign for quite cheap.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 13, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

*not sure I see

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 13, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

while he is more likely to get signed to an extension I'm still not sold on MOM

While he is far from bad actually pretty good, the Rays are quite limited on who they can and cannot give long contracts too and I don’t know if locking up money on Joyce is a good idea. If he wants to sign really cheap go ahead but I think he will want to get paid like a everyday COF that hits 25 HR and I don’t think he will ever be that player.

by Dbullsfan on Dec 13, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

the 3/30 deal, no

I would go maybe 5/33 or 3/18 if he wants a shorter deal.

by Dbullsfan on Dec 13, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

5/33 or 3/18 are the Zobrist numbers

What deal is 3/30?

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Dec 13, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Think you missed something.

Zobrist’s deal was four years, $18m.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 13, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

oh ok i read the wrong thing than

Yea I would do that for Joyce

by Dbullsfan on Dec 13, 2011 5:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

oh ok i read the wrong thing than

Yea I would do that for Joyce

by Dbullsfan on Dec 13, 2011 5:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

oh ok i read the wrong thing than

Yea I would do that for Joyce

@RealNolenBailey

by Hatfield on Dec 13, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

than what?

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 13, 2011 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

This isn't necessarily true

As long as the deals are reasonable and the player doesn’t completely fall apart, it’s still worth signing a guy even if you have to trade him later. So I don’t think there is a limit on how many guys can be signed long term.

by ChiBurbRaysFan on Dec 13, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

You just have to be careful with the guaranteed money which the Rays have so far.

You can’t trade them if they’re overpaid(without eating some salary which would be counterproductive to the organization).

by jtmorgan on Dec 13, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm more optimistic about Price than you are

but perhaps that’s being swayed by his public comments. I think I would rank them as Joyce, [enormous gap], Hellickson (because he’s never gotten paid in his life), [slight gap], Price (because there’s a rational path), [slight gap], Jennings, [massive gap], Upton.

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 13, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Price has a fairly high probability of getting done.

Just don’t expect much of a discount or FA years, maybe 1 just to lock in a good chunk of money. The unknown cost of him going forward makes for much less financial flexibility for the organization. He’s been durable and is young, so unless the FO has any injury concerns I expect something to get done, but don’t think it really effects much going forward.

by jtmorgan on Dec 13, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

They tried already to talk with him about an extension before last season.

If things didn’t progress then, I don’t see why they would now.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 13, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

True, as in fairly high I mean as compared to a Hellickson or Jennings extention.

We all know there is no shot at getting a great team friendly contract. There just is a decent chance that something gets worked out, but I don’t really expect FA years, not that it really would matter since I don’t think we could afford him outside the next 2 years or so at best.

by jtmorgan on Dec 13, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I fully expect Joyce to be extended this offseason,

and hopefully, if we don’t spend too much on Free Agents, we can sign Hellickson/Jennings to long-term deals as well.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 13, 2011 4:50 PM EST reply actions  

I know Hellickson just had a full season of being pretty awesome

But for some reason, a Jennings extension would make me happier than Hellickson.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 13, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

He should be higher on the list of priorities than Hellickson, as we always develop good pitching. Signing Moore, Jennings, and Joyce to extentions sounds like a pretty good offseason to me, along with upgrading the offense in whatever way we can.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 13, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

aramis ramirez just got 3/$36.

He’s old and worse than Upton. It’s why I can’t fathom how people don’t think BJ turns down 1/$12 next offseason.

Since Beej became a full-time big leaguer, only that season (2007) has Aramis out-WAR’d him. Over that span, BJ has amassed 4 more WAR than Aramis. Next year, he’ll be a 28 YO FA. This year, at the age of 33 Aramis got 3/$36. BJ should fire his agent if he takes what amounts to buying out his first 3 FA years for $30 million. That would be retarded.

by rglass44 on Dec 13, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Stop ruining our hope(aka delusional ideas)

It’s all we have :(

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Dec 13, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

The 3B market is incredibly thin right now.

I don’t see anyway that he doesn’t get a deal that he would turn down to take 1/12 for. He either gets a 5-6 year deal or he goes to an offensive park if he’s coming off a down year.

by jtmorgan on Dec 13, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Nothing really life changing.

Said he expected to see a lot more time at 2B this season since Matt Joyce did so well in the outfield last year and will likely see more time there. Which goes against my #prediction, but we’ll see. Apparently playing 2B reeeally gets his rocks off a lot more than OF.

@RealNolenBailey

by Hatfield on Dec 13, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

If it was RF everyday, he would be fine there also

I think Zo just wants to stay at 1 spot finally and have S-Rod be the utility player now.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 13, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Huff'd!


Zobrist

"It was a little weird seeing Ashley running at me with a closed fist. That was a scary look."-Matt Moore

by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 13, 2011 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

TWSS

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 13, 2011 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

You could make a slightly similar case for Prince Fielder

granted his down years aren’t so bad, but not 25M worth of consistency.

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Dec 13, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't have to put up MVP numbers to be worth an extension

He’s an above-average player at worst. Perfect guy to lock-in & give certainty to both team & player.

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Dec 13, 2011 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

But how many are realistic

Sure Jennings would be at the top, but that’s a pipe dream probably.

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Dec 13, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

It really depends how the FO views Joyce.

If they wait until after this season there’s not much incentive to sign since he’ll get paid through arbitration if he has a breakout year. If they think he continues on his current path that has value, but will not break the bank via arbitration and I think would receive about what Willingham got in arbitration ( 3,4.5,6).

He’s on the older side, so it isn’t of importance for them to extend as it would be others.

by jtmorgan on Dec 13, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh, the extension isn't just about the years involved...it's also about the money.

If he keeps hitting 20-30 hrs a year, he could get expensive in arb. Just having him under cost control for four more seasons (plus however many options) would be excellent.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 13, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

keeps hitting?

Are we talking about Joyce?

this isn't DRB
you don’t get a free pass for acting like a douchebag.
Derp
by Pikachu on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 13, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, er, yes...pudi corrected me below.

I get that technically he hasn’t done it yet. I guess I’m just pretty bullish on Joyce.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 13, 2011 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

19 HR in 2011 (522 ABs), 10 in 2010 (261 ABs)

So..he hasn’t hit even 20 yet in a season, though it’s likely he’d get to 22-23 playing full time and is projected to hit 19-22 in 2012, depending on your projection which I don’t really place any stock in whatsoever.

Also have to consider that extra ABs would come against lefties and who knows if that really helps his counting stats all that much. I’m hoping he gets better next year as he’s gonna be in his age 27 season, but I’m not gonna say he’ll hit like an all-star.

Speaking of which, reminds me that he was hitting like an all-star in May (MOM), but then was terrible for a while. Hope it was the shoulder and he comes back at full strength this season. In that case he could be a much bigger power threat and way more likely to hit for the power numbers you’re suggesting, Steve. If you think it was just the shoulder, absolutely lock him up and hope he doesn’t remain as injury prone as he has been the past 2 seasons. Risk risk risk!

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 13, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

That's where the view of the FO going forward are.

Willingham was a 20-25 HR guy with 450-550 PA a year through his arb years and capped out around $6MM. And that’s basically the kind of comp I’d have for Joyce right now. The lack of PA’s will offset his potential in Arb unless they like him for 650+PA/yr for the next few years.

If he went through all the years and got 3, 4.5, 6 like Willingham in addition to his 1 year of minimum would be 4/14MM. I think he’d be likely to sign something just saying as of this point Zobrist’s deal might be a little on the high side. This is if they think he is only a 500 PA/yr player.

by jtmorgan on Dec 13, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Good comp...that's excellent.

If that’s his essential upside (well, with better D…and I think he can become a 600 PA guy), then yeah, you’re right…he probably doesn’t deserve to get a Zobrist type deal. At least not with quite that amount of money guaranteed. Basically, Zobrist’s deal as the high-end, and Willingham’s arb years probably as a decent comp. I like it.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 13, 2011 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

He’s basically Willingham with better D. Which makes him more valuable, but D isn’t valued very highly in arb so I think something around 12-14MM guaranteed for 4 years might get it done with 2 $7MM/yr options.

by jtmorgan on Dec 14, 2011 1:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Jennings and Helly seem like the only 2 from the 25 man, but looking outside the box

Cobb and Torres may be a couple in the future and maybe even Tim Beckham IF he appears to be successful

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Dec 13, 2011 7:09 PM EST reply actions  

Beckham already having his huge signing bonus could be problematic.

Unless they see more in him and lock him up early ala Longoria and Moore.

Cobb and Torres would depend mostly how the FO views their long-term role is to the future of the team. Both could be good targets if they are viewed as key contributors going forward.

by jtmorgan on Dec 13, 2011 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

im hesitant on helly.

he’ll never be THAT expensive, and i still worry about his durability because of his size. maybe a shields-type deal would be fine, though.

by rglass44 on Dec 13, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I see Joyce having a Paul O'Neil type career

When he uses the whole field he is an impact bat. Hitting lefties will come…lock him up ASAP.

by sinkhole on Dec 13, 2011 8:36 PM EST reply actions  

Bottom line I think we can all agree on is

Upton is a pipe dream, Jennings is possible but unlikely, Joyce, it’s almost like I’m waiting for that one to be announced.

I put the chances at

Upton 5%
Jennings 25% (65% if the options vest instead of being team options 80% if they are guaranteed years, not options)
Joyce 95% and soon.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 13, 2011 8:56 PM EST reply actions  

Looks like Hammer's going to the Twins.

Maybe this makes Kubel more accesible? I’d love to have him DH next year, and most likely cheaper than Josh would have been.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 13, 2011 9:42 PM EST reply actions  

he was only worth about 1 WAR last season in 400AB but he wouldn't be in the field at all for us (hopefully)

and I’d much rather have him back than a one-year-older Damon.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 13, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

"back" meant DH

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 13, 2011 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Kubel also has more pronounced splits than Damon

(which I think is a good thing given the number of lefty-mashers on the Rays’ 40-man roster)

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking about Kubel earlier today too

He’ll only be 30 next year, but unsure of the money it’ll require. Have not heard of any rumors with him lately.

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Dec 13, 2011 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

He's probably looking at 3 years and between 15-18 million.

He had a down (and injured 2011), which will hurt his value but getting out of Target Field should help. i like him as potential DH but he also is another LH bat who does not hit lefties well and the Trop may not be kind to him either.

by budman3 on Dec 13, 2011 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Kubel isn't eactly Mr October

2-29, no runs,homers or rbi’s, 13 k’s, 3 walks, all vs. the Yanks.

SSS but thats real bad.

by sinkhole on Dec 13, 2011 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty irrelevant IMO

He’s not a cornerstone player, so he’s not gonna be a guy we rely big on for that time.

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Dec 13, 2011 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah I don't really care about that

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 13, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Really interesting to see that the potential deal between Willingham and the Twins is 3yr/21m

Joe Christensen of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune reports that the Twins and Josh Willingham are “very close” to a three-year, $21 million contract.

You would have thought we might have been able to swing that. Maybe it’s just me.

by Snarfalicious on Dec 14, 2011 12:01 AM EST reply actions  

Must've been the years

He’ll be 33 and they probably don’t want PtB 2.0

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Dec 14, 2011 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Why wouldn't Baldelli be a model for a Jenning reup?

I realize that contract flopped, but a lot of similarities are uncanny.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Dec 14, 2011 1:29 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

One major factor

I’m pretty sure Boras didn’t represent Rocco.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 14, 2011 1:37 AM EST up reply actions  

John Sickels is done.

He ranked Igelesias higher than Beckham. I’m pessimistic about TBex but wow.

by Patrick Relano Kim on Dec 14, 2011 3:17 AM EST reply actions  

Iglesias is an elite glove

He doesn’t have to hit at all really to be a major league regular

by benderbrodriguez on Dec 14, 2011 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

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