Starting Pitcher Trade Value: Pros and Cons
by Erik Hahmann on Dec 14, 2011 10:01 AM EST
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PrintExcess pitching. The Rays have it. Other teams want it. Its unlikely James Shields is traded this winter, leaving us with three arms that could be shipped off in return for offense. Let’s break down it down and look at the pros and cons of trading each.
Pros: Arbitration eligible, injury prone.
One of the biggest strikes against Niemann is his dwindling amount of team control; this will be his third year of arbitration. He's getting a bump in salary from the $903,000 he made in 2011. Not that his salary will be an outrageous number, he'll just hit free agency sooner rather than later. Also, the Big Nyquil can't stay healthy. He's officially missed 41 and 20 games over the past two seasons, but there were definitely stretches where he pitched while something was clearly wrong, and his performance suffered.
Cons: Likely better than Davis or Cobb at the moment, remains healthy and sustains his 2011 xFIP.
When healthy he's been a league average pitcher, a valuable asset when you have unproven commodities on the roster. Wade Davis hasn't shown the improvement expected of him and Alex Cobb has thrown less than 60 major league innings. He posted a 3.73 xFIP in 2011, if you believe that is a prelude to future performance then the Rays may not get the value they desire.
Wade Davis:
Pros: Weakest piece of current rotation, team-friendly contract.
We were supposed to see a step forward for Davis last season. Instead we were treated to more of the same from the 26-year-old, coupled with one of the worst strikeout rates (5.14) in baseball. He's simply been below league average the past two seasons any way you look at it. Those last sentences could work as cons, too, I suppose. His most appealing feature, at least when it comes to baseball, is his contract that won't pay him more than $4.8 million in any of the next three seasons. There are plenty of pitchers with worse numbers that make more.
Cons: Young, team-friendly contract
The same contract that makes him appealing to other teams is still valuable for the cash strapped Rays. James Shields and David Price are going to get expensive over the next two seasons and it's likely that one, or both, of them are not with the team after the 2013 season. In that instance the team would need to someone to fill in, and remember that Andrew Friedman has never signed a free agent starting pitcher.
Alex Cobb:
Pros: Young, record of minor league success could attract bidders, blocked by two starters
I don't think it's a stretch to say that Cobb could legitimately start for over half the teams in baseball. He has an excellent minor league track record and impressed in his 52 major league innings. The Rays unusual rotation depth has left him in the cold. As it stands right now the Rays don't need him. He provides a great luxury but is not a necessity. His six years of control remaining would also sweeten the pot for a potential suitor.
Cons: Young, cheap, also provides injury depth
Like Davis, the fact that Cobb is young and cheap can also be seen as cons. If one of the other starters is traded to make room for Matt Moore that puts a dent in the Rays' prized minor league pitching depth. Much like this past season Cobb could be used as a spot starter or suitable backup should a member of the staff go down with injury. Prospects in the Rays' system usually have a longer apprenticeship in Triple-A than Cobb's 67 innings. The fact that he was called into duty earlier than expected due to injury last season likely won't change that.
As coincidence would have it, Marc Topkin wrote a similar article for the St. Pete Times today. That's also worth giving a look.
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It's a no brainer....been saying it all offseason
Trade Niemann for a low cost SS or 1B, and keep Davis and Cobb as a 5th starter and for a injury to the pitching staff reserve. If you get a SS, you have Brigs as a backup and SRod can play first along with Joyce, and in OF you can still have a platoon with Joyce/Zobrist/Guyer/Canzler. Start season with still a top 3 pitching staff and a multiple number of options in the field.
there isn't a low-cost SS available who's superior to what the Rays have in-house
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
oh sure
use that excuse…
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Whether it's likely or not...
James Shields should still be part of the discussion (and probably Price, as well). It would be very un- extra 2% like to just ignore the possibility of a big haul.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
What is the acceptable return market if the team were to trade Shields?
Some crowdsourcing if you will
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by Jason Collette on Dec 14, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
That's not for me to decide... that's up to the Front Office
I’m just saying a discussion of possible trades involving the Rays starting pitching is incomplete without mentioning Shields and Price. I don’t think either is untouchable. Can Shields value get any higher then it is right now?
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
Still need more hitting...
If a starting pitching staff alone could win a world series, Rays would’ve had a parade last year.
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Who is your 1b that can semi hit?
That the Rays can get for Niemann.
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The Angels don't need pitching
I don’t see why they would feel that they needed to move Trumbo
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
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Trumbo also had an OBP under .300
/awful
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
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where you gonna put him, 3rd? He isn't DH'ing, and not playing first, and can't play OF. Angels need a 5th starter. Don't give me the OBP crock of crap, he was a rookie who hit 30 bombs
for how cheap he is and young, he will learn to walk and see pitches like every rookie does, and get better, but the price and power is there def. Can’t go by a rookies OBP who hits 30 bombs, it only gets better, especially for 400k.
Yeah, 2012 is definitely a loaded barrel year.
If 2011 was reloading, then 2012 is ready to go. Shields means more to us now than any other year, plus he’s still affordable. He’ll still have value in 2013, but if the Rays are going to indulge their rotation any year, 2012 is the year to do it.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats.
by BWoodrum on Dec 14, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, this.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
Follow @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Dec 14, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
I agree...
But, the Rays are still going to have to address hitting at some point. I have no doubt the Rays starting pitching can compete w/ the Yankees & Red Sox. It’s the Angels and the Rangers in the playoffs that concern me. If the Rays are going all out, they have to address the hitting.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
Rangers/yankees staff can't TOUCH the rays. Angels can in front 2, and Red Sox can if stay healthy which i doubt sincerely.
Rays can hit enough. And you will only have to worry about the Angels or Rangers in playoffs, not both.
But if this is an *all* in year...
You have to be looking at the end game. The Rays have taken an early exit two years in a row. Maybe time to concentrate a little more than just beating the Red Sox and Yankees.
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its beating them to get into the playoffs...then you only face ONE of them just like you only face ONE of the angels or Rangers, whichever one gets the wild card.
It has been early exits, but trading Shields or Price for a hitter, then having your 4 and 5 pitchers suspect, especially if a injury occurs, is scary a bit for the team assembled now. The Rays can score, they just hit shitty with RISP. I think that will change.
The Rays lineup doesn't compare to the Yanks, Sox, Angels, and Rangers
Head and shoulders above us.
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
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Luck is always going to be a huge factor especially in a 5 or 7 game series
But it’s not a total crapshoot like some people like to say it is.
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
OTTOTD.com
It never hurts to hedge your bets a little..
Rays had some good momentum. Went away rather quickly….
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
And don't get me wrong..
I’m not advocating trading James Shields. I’m just suggesting he should still be part of the discussion.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
After the Moore deal.
One of the starters is surely gone.
by Peter Piontek on Dec 14, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
So trade Price next offseason to bring in a haul.
And this offseason, get a young hitter with upside in a package for Niemann/Davis/or Cobb (and toss in other prospects as you will), and then sign someone like Luke Scott that has offensive upside as DH. It wouldn’t be radical, but that seems like a likely scenario right now.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
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by Steve Slowinski on Dec 14, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
If this is an all in year, then Rays should try to move Davis in a deal for Carlos Quentin
At this point, he’s probably the best bat that’s possibly available and within reach.
by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 14, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
interesting
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Flip the script
If we did not have Shields, and instead had whatever potential sweet haul was out there, would we be advocating to trade for career year James and mortgaging a big chunk of the future?
We have lots of starting pitching depth. You definitely need to weigh the return each pitcher can bring and that includes Shields.
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by FreeZorilla on Dec 14, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The point is we don't know what sweet haul is out there
Apparently the Rays haven’t found one they think is sweet enough.
I’m all for trading Shields, but I think his value is almost too high to trade right now(if that makes any sense)
The price is just too steep for other teams.
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
OTTOTD.com
Theres no way to know
Some of the earlier comments seemed to indicate Shields is off the table. No one should be off the table. I wasn’t saying we should trade Shields. I was saying its silly to say “we should not trade Shields” when if the script was reversed there is likely no way anyone would be advocating trading for Shields.
Shields could defintiely bring back a sweet haul, but it may not be the best for the team relative to other offers. Nothing is off the table.
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by FreeZorilla on Dec 14, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Longoria should be off the table
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
If we had another Longoria at 3B I would disagree
But losing Longo would leave an enormous hole on the team in most scenarios.
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by FreeZorilla on Dec 14, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
Longo for Tulo, straight up?
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
unless it's supplanted by Moore's contract
Longo’s contract has the most surplus value of any player in baseball.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Right which means its an incredible commodity
It doesn’t make him untradeable, it means what you would expect back in atrade is far greater. Now teams likely would not part with enough talent to justify trading him, but thats a different story. The Rays also have no positional depth there so trading him is almost an impossible. We have a ton of starting pitching.
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right right
I’m just explaining why hanging up on Longo-for-Tulo (or Longo for any single player) straight up is a no-brainer.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
tulo is injured too much
plus HJL is waiting in the wings to swoop up that SS spot.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
i like the rays
and i always have been facinated with the way they do business, and not to sound to cheezy, your posts/threads are much smarter than most and more thoughtful.
plus i have HJL and others in dynasty leagues so i like to stay informed.
sadly i will always be a Giants fan even though it pains me how they operate.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
draysbay is one of the best baseball blogs on SB nation.
there i said it.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Really.....
They have a authoritarian manager, lost Papelbon, Ortiz won’t have a year like last year again he is breaking down, Youkilis’s back is basically gone now, and their 3B is Aviles.. etc. they are not near team they were last year.
Lackey is out for the entire 2012 season.
by Peter Piontek on Dec 14, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
which, in all honesty, is a rebound
by rglass44 on Dec 14, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Rec'd
truth
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
I hesitate to call the Red Sox on the decline.
In fact, an argument could be made that some key players should rebound in 2012 while new young and veteran talent remains available to Boston.
For 4 months last year, Boston was the best team in baseball despite some disappointing performances from key players. A slow start and unprecedented (at least unlikely if not unprecedented) slide in September should not obscure that fact.
I didn't , I was explaining the "bounce back" effect. Its a psychic theory, going by the relevance of actual situation at moment. My bad know it all, my bad, no more offering opinions in Maniac land.
wasn’t saying I was absolutely right, merely pointing towards the factors.
.....While ignoring others.
I’m not saying that you are wrong. I think it is awfully homerish to only look at one side of the story though.
for the Rays
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
A young, major-league hitter plus an A-/B+ level prospect
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
well, I think I talked through my thoughts on the Wil Myers thread
I’m persuaded that a single A-level prospect is probably FMV for Shields, but given where the Rays are (that is, not in a position where they have to move Shields, given the market for other starters, and potential legitimate WS contenders), I’d want to get both short-term and long-term value for Shields.
In other words, even though these deals are potentially objectively fair:
-I wouldn’t trade Shields for Myers straight up in 2012; and
-I wouldn’t trade Shields for Logan Morrison straight up.
I do think there are combinations that make trading Shields a possibility.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
If Shields is traded, it better be for a nice 1B/utility infielder combo...
Angels and Reds are obviously best options for that off top of head, as if this hasn’t been discussed an ample amount on here already. But I would rather put all stock in this year and go all in with Shields and just trade Niemann and get a decent return on either a SS or 1B. We have enough utility guys to make it work if we fill one of those needs.
Because people are irrational
So tired of people wanting to trade for a SS.
by Peter Piontek on Dec 14, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
Well, I get legitimate frustration
with Brignac’s awful 2011. But it’s unbelievably shortsighted; if Brignac returns to 2009-2010 levels — and a few adjustments to his swing combined with platooning him with S-Rod suggests that’s possible — then you’ve essentially got Elvis Andrus.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah , I understand the frustration
Offensive Shortstops just don’t grow on trees anymore
by Peter Piontek on Dec 14, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
It's okay. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
the Shortstop position is just ridiculously thin at all levels right now.
by Peter Piontek on Dec 14, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
this is precisely my point
If he returns to 2009-2010 levels, Reid Brignac is clearly a better hitter than Ian Desmond.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
why?
why would you discard 430 major-league plate appearances — and 2,748 in the minors — in favor of 264?
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
Why talk about something that doesn't exist?
There is no option the Rays could/will get right now that is better than S-rod/Brignac/Beckham/Lee.
by mr. maniac on Dec 14, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It was purely for speculation and fun.
The concersation in this thread has been looking for possible matches. And while it is all speculation, it is a more educated type, which is better than pretending there are cheap, good, and easy-to-get SS out there for the Rays.
speaking of educated
why would anyone think trading for Devin Mesocar and Yonder Alonso is fair for James Shields…I still cant figure out why everyone loves Alonso. I would argue that the Rays would be better off getting James Loney for Neimann straight up.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
obviously this is referring to other threads
and my bad on the Meso typo.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
i think loney is underrated
he is the poster boy of what the typical 1B should not be, yet he continues to deliver aside from 2011 he has put up 88-90 RBI’s and a BA of roughly .280…and after his not so hot 2011 he is a buy low candidate.
he has very little power and probably tops out at 15 HR’s, but the cheap ones always have flaws.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Power is underrated, batting average is overrated
by benderbrodriguez on Dec 14, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
power is underrated?
child please.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
hmm well it's hard to say whether or not something is underrated because I can't say for sure how it's seen
But I think many here tend to not appreciate the statistical value of home runs. Or maybe I don’t know what people here appreciate and what they don’t.
by benderbrodriguez on Dec 14, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
And there's no question doubles are underrated, even people here don't appreciate how good Zobrist is at hitting
by benderbrodriguez on Dec 14, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
HR=$$$
the double is underrated I agree. (Loney is good at doubles 32 per year on average) and I think he compares similarly to Gaby Sanchez with less power.
i also think zobrist is very underrated and that might be due to his lack of a defined position, but he is a really good player.
as for my child please comment i was kidding.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
You don't think Loney's HR numbers would increase
if he was not hitting in Dodger Stadium 81 games a year, plus SD and SF, and instead hitting at the Trop, plus NY and Bos both play well LH hitters, and the ball tends to fly out in Tor and Balt as well?
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Dec 15, 2011 5:59 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe in NYY
but Dodger Stadium’s park factors for HRs for LHB last season was 116/100.
Taking his home park batted ball distances and superimposing them onto Tropicana Field, he could have potentially turned one double into a HR while losing as many as three home runs to the deep rightcenter gap.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Dec 15, 2011 7:41 AM EST up reply actions
What do you of the possibility of
signing Luke Scott and trading Niemann or Davis and a prospect to Seattle for Smoak?
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Dec 15, 2011 8:24 AM EST up reply actions
like latter more than former
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Dec 15, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
chill out there Andre
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
DUI is rated just about right tho
Use the force, Lueke
by nomoredevil on Dec 14, 2011 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
you know james loney is the dodgers designated drunk driver
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 15, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
That's for next offseason.
I’m sure the Rays will listen to offers for those two, but this is the year to really go big and shoot high. I think the Rays would have to be overwhelmed to deal one of them right now.
After this season, at least one of Shields/Price will be gone. But their trade values should both be high next season as well, so I see no need to rush.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
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by Steve Slowinski on Dec 14, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Of all the pitchers, I'd want to hang onto Davis the most.
His contract and the fact he still has probably the most upside of all three makes him a reasonable choice to keep.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats.
serious question
Why do people keep saying Wade Davis has the most upside? Niemann has better K/9 numbers and was a higher draft pick. I’m just curious why “Davis’s upside” seems to be the CW around here.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
I think Niemann's a better pitcher than Davis, honestly.
And Cobb should be better than Davis, depending how much you believe stats or scouting. At least, that’s the current version of Davis we’re talking about…the one that doesn’t really have solid out pitches and can’t make hitters swing and miss much.
I dunno, I’m torn on Davis’s “upside” right now. It’s all we have to believe in, which is why you probably hear about it so much, because the current iteration of him is pretty blarg.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
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by Steve Slowinski on Dec 14, 2011 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
That said, I'd like to hang onto him too if possible.
The contract makes him worthwhile to keep around, and not someone you want to give up on that quickly.
But I’d also rather have a young first baseman that can hit than him. So yeah.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
Follow @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Dec 14, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
Could Wade Davis
just be a Dallas Braden in a Rays uniform?
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
numbers-wise
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Davis' changeup is harder than Braden's fastball
although they probably have the same velocity left-handed.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
cough* numbers-wise *cough
BRADEN: 5.59 K/9 2.58BB/9 0.82HR/9
DAVIS: 5.89K/9 3.20BB/9 1.14HR/9
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Personally
- He seems to be a workhorse type, not injury prone like Niemann
- Can dial up his velocity to 95 when he wants (not sure this matters actually)
- Versatile, can probably adopt well to the bullpen
- Related to the injury aspect, seems like he can refine his repertoire (like adding new pitches, new delivery) without danger of snapping his back.
by Ben Tumbling on Dec 14, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
Niemann has a much higher upside than he gets credit for.
He goes on those crazy runs when his mechanics are in tune and his curve is plus-plus.
of course not
I was just using that as shorthand for scouting.
I mean, it seems to me that the only argument for Davis comes down to “more velo.” I just wanted to see if I was missing something.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
You are not.
Davis has a pretty average fastball. His curve and slider are both inconsistent. His changeup is trash. His cutter looks great.
When he came up in late 2009, his pitches looked great. And there has been no injury explanation for why they stink now.
by Ben Tumbling on Dec 14, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
wasn't there concern over his health going forward...
At the draft because of how much he pitched in college? And when did Randy Johnson have success in the majors? Pretty sure alot of it was post 30… More moving parts to figure out with all the height
by mooreCOWBELL on Dec 14, 2011 2:25 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
RJ
the Randy Johnson comp is the worst in my opinion…everyone throws it around for any big guy with a heater and if that guy is left handed then it becomes the go to cliche forever…
BTW it started to click for RJ when he was 26 and he worked out all the kinks by 29.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
His fastball was still straight back then, but he could elevate it and get guys to swing through it.
I haven’t seen that from him since.
Correct, it has always been straight. I remember a pitch/fx analysis article that verified its movement as below average.
TWSS joke aside, why can’t he elevate is anymore?
by Ben Tumbling on Dec 14, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
That is one reason I view him as having a better upside than Niemann.
Maybe Wade can be fixed, or he just needs to stumble upon something that really works for him. Him having that flexibility to tinker with new pitches and mechanics is a positive, I think.
by Ben Tumbling on Dec 14, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
I still doubt we can get fair value
If we trade someone other than Price or Shields (or Hellickson). Everyone in the league knows we need to get rid of someone, an under those circumstances, teams just don’t offer a much for someone without a natural premium. It happened with Hammel for sure, and to a lesser extent with Jackson.
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by Brickhaus on Dec 14, 2011 11:26 AM EST via mobile reply actions
saying this
at some point something is going to have to happen, because we can only have 5 starters
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
OTTOTD.com
Great strategy..
wait for injury. I’ll make sure to include that in my next leadership book.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
file it under
risk mitigation.
All business have risk mitigation strategies….the “waiting for negative outcome”….part of the business model.
by MrNegative1 on Dec 14, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
There's risk mitigation...
And then there is over compensating. If you have a hole in your team (or business), it’s probably not the best strategy to hoard for a worst-case scenario (something I believe many large corporations are doing right now). I have no problem w/ keeping 6 pitchers for risk mitigation. I just don’t think keeping 7, in case of injury, is necessary.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
Nope...
But I am willing to take a little bit less in an active move as opposed to passively waiting for either one of my pitchers to get hurt (which gives 0 value) or waiting for someone else’s pitcher to get hurt to drive up value.
And you’re still not going to get great value from another team just because they have an injured pitchers. The Rays aren’t going to just willy nilly trade one of their pitchers to an AL Contender w/o a haul. And an AL Contender isn’t going to give up something the Rays really need because they have a hurt pitcher.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
cant trade a hurt player...at least not for fair value
and i assume active gets bolded because he is trying to stress that being active in the trade market when dealing from a position of strength can be more rewarding than passively waiting in the shadows to see whats left after the dust settles…just a guess though.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
yes but that injured player is worth less.
its like if the cardinals tried to trade Adam Wainwright last year they wouldnt have gotten FMV. Having a better injury replacement is great, but at what point do you decide to have a better starting 1B or whatever than a better injury replacement? basically better to have insurance or an everyday player?
On a side note, if you have a better injury replacement than current player it would make sense to play that better player…(but that would just be arguing your use of the word better in the above comment)
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
i make no bones about the fact that we SHOULD trade a starter. i dont want to not trade one. i just dont think we HAVE to,
thats what gets you pennies on the dollar.
fair enough
but would you say in order to get a position player of value the Rays will first look to deal from a position of strength, in this case SP?
most people believe that if you have 7 ML ready SP’s and 5 spots and a hole at 1st you trade from surplus. most people say why keep 7 when 5 will do and there are other areas more pressing.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
thank god
i do not care for yonder at all. i think neimann is worth yonder plus a C+ prospect.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
never pay for the outlier
if he was really that great dont you think the reds would have made a spot for him? that tells me something.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
exactly. i liked the idea of trading for him prior to that breakout month a lot more than i do now.
just like i like the idea of trading for moreland a lot more than i did last year.
how do you feel about loney?
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
dodgers would have to eat some of that
for a niemann.cobb.davis type.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Dodgers are said to interested in Coco Crisp for LF
If they sign him, Sands has no spot in the lineup. OTOH, Dodgers aren’t a fit with the Rays because their rotation is full (and well paid) and their main weakness is catcher. It’s Joel Peralta for Jerry Sands then.
by Ben Tumbling on Dec 14, 2011 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
I do that every day of the week.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
then the rays can sign mike macdougal to replace peralta...i love it
just kidding. macdougal blows.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 15, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
as it stands now our bullpen is probably second or third best we've ever had after 2010 and maybe some other year.
Peralta for a potential starting bat would be great.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
Cleveland Indians
A few years ago the Indians were poised to make a run at the AL Central Division (2008)
They had CC Sabathia (Cy Young), Fausto Carmona (comign off a very good year), Jake Westbrook, Paul Byrd, and Cliff Lee all in the rotation.
Adam Miller (#1 prospect and BA #29 pre 2008), Jeremy Sowers, and Aaron Laffey as AAA depth if needed.
That team ended the year having 13 players making starts including the great Matt Ginter (4), Tom Mastny (1), Zach Jackson (9), and Brian Bullington (2)…would of been a very good team if not for the loss of starting pitchers.
As it was the team finished at 81-81 but the point I’m making is that no team should ever get too comfortable with depth at starting pitching.
Of course, if a deal for a SP improves the team go for it.
Any trade that makes the team better than it was the day before is a good thing.
You can't pay Moore to sit in the minors.
You could move Davis to the bullpen, even if you don’t plan on keeping him there.
Allow Niemann to pitch until the trade deanline
Let Niemann pitch for the first halve and then trade him at the deadline (move Cobb up). This allows them to get full value from a Niemann trade if it isn’t there during this off season, and it gives Cobb time to start in AAA and make sure he is ready since his last injury.
i like this
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
but who plays 1st Base?
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Move Colome or Torres or other prospect
You could move one of these players for a 1B like Duda, Lonely, or someone else for Matt Rizzotti or Marrero. What was the plan last year with just Danjo and Kotch?
Which is fine
and if that injury never comes?
I think Moore should start in the minors to help limit his innings. Cobb can spend the whole year down there if needed, but Moore has to be up by 6/1.
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
OTTOTD.com
I wonder if it would be possible at all...
for whichever starter that went to the bullpen to be come a sixth starter every other time through the rotation. Works out to about 100 innings on the season, and probably keeps Moore where they want him to be innings wise this coming season. Unfortunately it takes innings away from the other four pitchers, too.
Boom. Outta Here.
Follow @RyanGilliss
by Ryan Gilliss on Dec 14, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
i doubt moore goes to the minors with that contract.
very un-AF to sign the “big” contract and waste time in minors.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
After signing a fixed-term major league deal
Management would have to be retarded to start Moore in the minors.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I'm up in the air about it
Wouldn’t it make sense to keep him down for a month or so to limit his innings?
I would think it would make more sense to limit them on the front end rather then risk having to shut him down late if we are in a playoff race or even worse risk injury by increasing his workload.
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
OTTOTD.com
OK, I can see the logic behind that
But that only buys you a few extra weeks, and then it means you have to burn an option on or nontender another player who otherwise wouldn’t be on the 25-man.
And frankly, I’d rather have the best team on the field to start. Waiting until midseason to trade a pitcher and improve other areas of the team makes it that much less likely that we’ll make the playoffs in what appears to be a top-heavy league.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Not this year
But we need to eventually, and the longer we wait, the less value most of the chips will have. Plus, it would just be damn inefficient not to trade someone – we have too many pitchers, we have holes elsewhere, and pitchers’ values would decrease if they are moved to the bullpen or start in the minors. It’s not like something is coming on the horizon that will make it likely that we’ll get a better offer at midseason or next offseason.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
The whole everyone needs pitching so you can always move someone for good value if you have a glut is definitely a fallacy
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
OTTOTD.com
seriously
if the Rays could get a Matt Joyce-type (23, good defensively, and hit .252/.339/.492) for Niemann/Davis/Cobb, I think we’d all be celebrating.
(In case you’re wondering, Logan Morrison hit .247/.330/.468 last year.)
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
LoMo is pretty overhyped though compared to Joyce back then
Maybe AF will get someone like Jerry Sands, someone barely mentioned.
by Ben Tumbling on Dec 14, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
Haha, very true
And while the Rays waited on Joyce, he was major league ready when they acquired him. He did improve baseball skills in Durham though.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Dec 14, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
I think we'll see if that was a good baseball plan in 2012
because it looks like Joyce is going to get every opportunity to play versus most left-handers. If he can hang in there, I’d say the extra year in Durham was worth it. (Note: I used the word ‘baseball’ in there, because obviously I get the financial implications.)
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Allegedly when they sent him down, there were very specific things for him to improve upon such as running the bases.
I’m sure service time had something to do with it, but I buy into the concept that he improved at Durham. Even if he fails to hit lefties, I think the time in the minors was probably very well spent.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Dec 14, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
good points
I know he was asked to work on hitting lefthanders, but you’re right to point out that he was probably given other specific tasks to focus on as well.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
BUT
Remember that while we here liked the Joyce trade at the time, (a) he was a fringy prospect until breaking out the year before and didn’t have a good long-term track record, and (b) Jackson has been traded twice since for bigger hauls. While Friedman was able to outsmart everyone, consensus outside of the saber-oriented community was that the Rays lost that trade. And hell, while we got a good return, we STILL probably lost that trade, as Jackson was spectacular the next year and was flipped again for even better players than Joyce.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
the panic continues in Boston
Red Sox send Jed Lowrie and Kyle Weiland to the Astros for Mark Melancon.
THE LEGEND OF JED LOWRIE
It seems like that he’s hitting another level in his development this year, since he was able to focus on becoming a better player this offseason, rather than getting healthy.
What’s not clear is if, offensively, he’s going to be another Pedroia, or another Youkilis, or something in between. It will be a lot of fun to watch, though.
Fenway: “An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark.” —Thomas Boswell
by lone1c on Apr 19, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up actions
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
OTTOTD.com
or something below both
My guess is that a full-time Lowrie facing RHP 60+% of the time is not as good offensively as Pedroia. Still should be a top-tier hitting SS.
by Buzzy on Apr 19, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up actions
I think his splits aren’t as big as they appear to be
Quite a bit of the skew comes from the end of 2008 where he hit a wall against righties as a LHB. If he can get just a little better against righties, he moves ahead Pedroia rather easily.
Fenway: “An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark.” —Thomas Boswell
by lone1c on Apr 19, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up actions
October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--
OTTOTD.com
the perils of assuming 200 PA represents a hitter's true talent level
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
I read the story on the trade and was like The Red Sox did what?
Did they seriously need Mark Melancon that badly? I’m pretty sure there other free agent relievers available.
26 and under control until 2017
not a bad trade IMO
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
i agree
but having seen the guy pitch, he is definitely cut out for a set-up man role, while making a few rouge saves and growing into a closer (ala madson)…in no way do i think Boston is viewing him as their closer of 2012..he is way to inexpensive/flashy and Boston wont take that. I still see Bailey and Madson on their radar big time…
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Define awful
56% groundball rate playing with a very bad team defense
K/9 of 8
FIP of 3.25
I’d take that awful
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Dec 14, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
he's, what, 5% better than Burke Badenhop?
But oh, those 20 saves….
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Melancon could be a solid fit for the team now
he’s not awful, but he’s also not worth Lowrie.
I’d love for Friedman to send org depth to the Astros to get Lowre
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Dec 14, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
Lowrie is expendable
in they eyes of Boston…they have Jose Iglesias/Marco Suctaro….scary good.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
it was part sarcasm
but red sox fans really do like iglesias. too much in my opinion
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
You also overrated my ability to pick up your sarcasm.
Btw, that was sarcasm.
i like it
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
I live in Texas, and I watch the Stros on the regular, his numbers are good, ERA especially, but he struggled alot. He would smoke people, then 3 appearances in a row just break apart.
he is only like 25 or 26 though, came up with Yankees if i recall correctly, maybe not, but he has a upside, if Lowrie can stay healthy, Astros win that trade big time.
You don't happen to be a big fan of Henry Wrigley, do you?
Most of us here tend to look at overall numbers of larger trends. I hope what you say is right, but his overall numbers seem to suggest that he was better than you have suggested.
Irrelevant.
Sitting here discussing the thin market of SS, yet the Astros pull Lowrie and a decent prospect for a middle of the line reliever. Thats a superb trade, I was saying its bad in correlation to what they RECEIVED. Not that he is a bad pitcher.
The Tampa Bay Rays are a threat to columnists everywhere. Don’t believe me? OK, buster, let’s see you squeeze blood from a radish.
That’s what it’s like writing a good, strong, negative opinion piece about the Rays
He obviously doesn’t know many members of the local Bay Area media.
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 14, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
WoW
This season, all Rays 162 games were started by a pitcher they drafted and developed. In addition, Tampa Bay has gone 764 straight games since starting a pitcher who has celebrated a 30th birthday
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Dec 14, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
time for the streak to end
It’s just gonna take so much in return for us to feel good about a Shields trade and Yonder + Grandal doesn’t do it for me. If it was Meso, Yonder and a 3rd piece but no one is even discussing Meseroco.
Under construction
I'm not asking for charity, but would it kill Rays executive vice president of baseball operations Andrew Friedman to do something dumb once in a while?
in a word: YES
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
Love it.
Manager Joe Maddon is part of that team, too. Rather than run from Friedman’s new-age scouting reports, he embraces them. Maddon also knows people. He’s instantly likeable, engaging and full of ideas. In one brief conversation last summer, he recommended three novels, two wines and a restaurant.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats.
So Friedman gets a better reliever for a guy that is garbage
Red Sox give up a quality utility player and a nice arm..Cherington is smart
Zumaya watch
Joel Zumaya (elbow) threw for more than 50 scouts in Houston on Wednesday, reports Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com.
Zumaya is currently making his way back from exploratory surgery on his troubled right elbow. The 27-year-old sat in the 93-93 mph range with his fastball Wednesday and one scout told Rosenthal that he expects him to land a job. We’re guessing a minor league deal with a spring training invite will be the best he can do.
Source: Ken Rosenthal on Twitter
Under construction
And the actual tweet was 93-96, good curve, decent command
Rotoworld left out a lot.
Under construction
I hope we can sign him
He has a very good chance of being our next Benoit. A bullpen of Farns, Peralta, Zumaya, Gomes, McGee, Badenhop, Lueke, Howell…being able to pick our best 7 players, and bolstering injury depth would be awesome. That said, I like the bullpen as it’s currently constructed. I agree with Woodrum that this bullpen could be the best overall pen we’ve ever had, or best second to 2010.
by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 14, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Yep, Zumaya is just gravy, awesome gravy but gravy
I like the pen already with Farnsworth, Peralta, McGee, Gomes, Badenhop, Howell/Ramos, Lueke/Torres/Bush/DDLR
Lots of power arms fighting for that last spot right there. Yeah and my pipe dream of Bailey will continue until he is traded elsewhere. Maybe, I just want him because the Red Sox want him or maybe he’s just awesome.
Under construction
Tampa Perfect
If he wants an opportunity to go to an organization that will not rush him and risk his rehab, with a training staff that keeps its players (for the most part) healthy, an organization that has worked with players in the same comeback curve, and wants to be with an organization that will give him the best shot at re-establishing his value then the Rays organization is the perfect fit.
Hopefully, Zumaya and his people will take all of that into account before signing.
Similar to the Rays landing Matt Bush. The Red Sox were after him as well and he chose the Rays organization primarily because of their handling of Josh Hamilton and the Winning Inning facility.
Other things to think about
Davis doesn’t have a spot free injury record, although Niemann’s is definitely scarier.
Niemann’s continuously improved each year in the majors, Davis has continuously gotten worse (albeit he’s only had the portion of a season in 09 followed by two full seasons).
In 2011 Niemann was significantly better (92 xFIP- vs 119 xFIP-). That’s an absolutely massive difference, and any projections should weigh 2011 heaviest.
by benderbrodriguez on Dec 14, 2011 2:18 PM EST reply actions
The injuries are very different between the 2
Davis seems to come back quicker and pitches like he didn’t miss any time. Neimann is out for a while and he can go on a crazy Verlander-like run for 7 or 8 starts then start falling apart again. You really never know with Jeff and that’s why I want him traded.
Under construction
Uh oh
Dan Connolly of the Baltimore Sun reports that around 10 teams have expressed interest in free agent Luke Scott.
Double digit teams? Name one time that was good for us.
Under construction
Hypothetically: "Fifteen different MLB teams declare bankruptsy, Rays report massive, gluttonous profits"
Just spitballing here.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats.
what is this strange new term they are declaring?
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
think you're mixing that up with bankruptzy, or perhaps bankrupt$y
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
i prefer the latter
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
Other option for us handling the extra starter situation
Is starting Moore in the bullpen at the beginning of the year. This limits his innings (but still lets him contribute to the major league team) and as the season goes we can make a trade depending on how Davis/Niemann/Cobb are performing and how their value is perceived.
by benderbrodriguez on Dec 14, 2011 2:24 PM EST reply actions
AF did talk about moving a starter to the pen
But Joe has said he has always wanted Wade in there. Personally, with his durability issues, I like Neimann in the pen. He has troubles late in games and big time trouble staying healthy.
Under construction
It wouldn't make sense to move Davis or Niemann to the pen because this kills their short/long-term trade value
With Matt Moore that’s not an issue
by benderbrodriguez on Dec 14, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Passing out Tommy points left and right today
Your buddy House would be so proud
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
This could be interesting
Reds trying to get Cuddyer for LF. Well now, I thought Yonder was playing in LF?
Get that man a Rays jersey.
Under construction
Yonder is playing LF like Sonny is closing for the Rays this season
I don’t care if Yonder dropped 18 lbs, he is not an outfielder. All posturing
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Dec 14, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Well we probably have Canzler at 1B at the moment
We got an opening for you, Yonder.
Under construction
I hate Yonder
at his current price.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Just looked at a few things regarding Davis on fangraphs.
I’m trying to see what happened to the 2009 Davis that could strike guys out.
First of all, here is a scouting report from MLB.com heading into the 2010 season: “Davis is a power pitcher with a heavy fastball he can get up into the mid 90s that he keeps down in the zone. He’s also got a plus curve he can throw for strikes at any time. He’s worked on a changeup and a slider, as well. He’s a good athlete and a tremendous competitor. His walk rate hasn’t been terrible, but he could stand to cut down a little on the free passes.”
There are also some mentions in scouting reports of a cutter that he was developing.
When Davis pitched in the big leagues in 2009, he had wFB/C of 1.26, a wSL/C of -.4, a wCB/C of 2.07, and a wCH/C of -3.61.
Going from those numbers, Davis appeared to have a plus-plus curve ball, a plus-plus fastball, a below average slider, and a 20 grade changeup.
The curve and slider have gone backwards since, registering -1.68 and .14 grades respectively in 2011.
The scouting reports seem to indicate that his fastball and curve were both very good, as evidenced by the sucess he had with them (although they might have not been as good as they were in the 2009 SSS).
Could some PitchFX master figure out what happened to his two sick pitches? Collette, is it possible you can post video comparing his 2011 curve and fastball to those in 2009?
Interesting thing I found.
Davis has thrown a two seamer along with his 4 seamer in 2010 and 2011. I have heard a theory before that more movement is not always a good thing on a pitch such as the fastball. I’m not sure if it is true, but it would make some sense. After all, I do remember guys saying that Davis’s fastball felt 100 mph when it was only 94. Could the lack of movement have anything to do with this?
As someone who has never been much of a player (and that is being rather nice), I’m not sure what to say about this.
Hmm... I felt like he located his curve exceptionally last year,
but I cannot remember games specifically where his curve got punished though.
I dunno, an interesting thought, though.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats.
Weiland is an intriguing prospect...
but he’s been known to Fall To Pieces.
Boom. Outta Here.
Follow @RyanGilliss
ICWYDT
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Dec 14, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Some think he's a Creep...
but he’s probably just been pampered by the Plush Red Sox minor league system.
Boom. Outta Here.
Follow @RyanGilliss
by Ryan Gilliss on Dec 14, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Haha
Rumors of Rollins going to Boston were actually Nick Punto going to Boston.
I like this new GM they have.
Under construction
Not much...
willing to listen to offers on Shields, Davis and Upton.
Boom. Outta Here.
Follow @RyanGilliss
by Ryan Gilliss on Dec 14, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
my thoughts are we pretty much need to trade a guy (and even with that would like to move Davis to the pen)
the order in which I’d like to see
1. Trade Price for a MLB Impact bat (Votto, Hanley, Bruce type)
2. Trade Niemann for a MLB ready prospect (Alonso/Grandal, Myers, Sanchez)
3. Trade Price for 2 MLB ready prospects (Alonso/Mesoraco, Morrison/Sanchez, Myers/someone else)
4. Trade Shields for either scenario 1 or 2
5. Trade Davis or Cobb for scenario 2
maybe those are unrealistic returns but for the next month or 2 I would shoot high if I’m AF and than as it gets closer to camp than maybe lower the asking price.
yeah that wont happen...
myers is almost untouchable it sounds like.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
could you explain
your interest in Alonso? I think Price for Alonso and Mesocaro seems awful, but many people seem to be content with that type of return. Just wondering why?
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Well Mesoraco really does seem like he will not be a bust
I know that gets said a lot but you can look at his swing and track record, that’s a stud who is ready to play now. Yonder is more potential, he hasn’t really shown all that much but he has the chance to be a powerful 1B, Meseroco would be the dream at C for the next 6 years anyway.
Under construction
see that logic to me is just too risky
you got a guy who has been basically an above average hitter with position/defensive issues who will be 25 by the time the 2012 season gets going and has basically displayed james loney-esque numbers and a catcher who while is close to “can’t miss” as they come still comes with a lot of risk due to the position he plays. It just seems like too much for an ACE like price and an extremely close to Ace like Shields.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
Personally, I just wanted a simple Yonder for Neimann/Davis deal
But that probably would of happened by now if it was going to.
Under construction
i think thats more realistic
but i think a guy like neimann, who is a proven quantity, is worth more than just yonder…maybe yonder and a low level prospect.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
I imagine AF is trying to get Grandal too if it is for niemann or davis
Than some lower prospects may get thrown both ways. I wonder if they have an interest in Guyer if they want to fill LF
by Dbullsfan on Dec 14, 2011 6:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This
The C position is our most dire need
by benderbrodriguez on Dec 14, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
We need some power in the lineup
Someone to take the heat of Longo.
by BUCSwillDOMINATE on Dec 14, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
*off
And no we don’t. Our team ISO was 5th in the AL after 4 teams that play in bandboxes (TOR, NY, sox, tex). Our park adjusted power performance would probably be in the top 3 in the league but I’m not certain how to calculate that..
by benderbrodriguez on Dec 14, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
but C is also very much the most difficult position to evaluate
and it carries the most risk of failure.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
Mesoraco would be the key piece with Alonso being the secondary guy
by Dbullsfan on Dec 14, 2011 6:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
even still
to trade away an ACE for a top catching prospect is not very good imo
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
if they can get more thats great
I think right now would be a great time to trade Price because his percieved value is better than his true talent level, yes in three years he may find another pitch and become amazing but he will be too expensive for us by than.
by Dbullsfan on Dec 14, 2011 6:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
* 2 thoughts there
I’m not considering guyer a throw in prospect
by Dbullsfan on Dec 14, 2011 6:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
yeah i guess
i do agree price’s value is high, but i cant imagine letting go of him for C and a mid-level 1B.
I like the idea of going for grandal and alonso for a niemann/davis just because mesoraco is so highly touted that i think his value is higher than it should be. the way the reds have positioned themselves mesoraco and alonso’s values are being inflated.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
Ahoy guys...dropping bu from Red Reporter.
Part of the conundrum that is Yonder Alonso is valuing him while factoring in the fractured hamate bone in his wrist; a large portion of his AAA stats are somewhat deflated by the lack of power during his recovery time, much like the injury/recovery Jay Bruce went through two years back, as well.
Part of the excitement surrounding Yonder certainly revolves arojnd his success at the MLB level during his call up last fall, sure, but for us, at least, we’ve been excited about him since roughly a year after the injury. Also, Louisville has never really fully shown off the power potential of the Reds’ prospects (for instance, check the AAA numbers for Stubbs, Heisey, and even Bruce).
All that said, I’m personally excited to see Yonder’s bat in the Reds lineup, and have also been on record as saying that any trade where the Reds netted Shields would have to include Mesoraco. If the Rays truly are shopping Upton, what would a package of Mesoraco/Stubbs look like for Shields?
Love what you all have going here. Stop bu and see us at Red Reporter anytime!
Tequila and pancakes, anyone?
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 15, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think anyone here has really been looking at Stubbs, we're relatively set on 3rd/4th OFs unless Upton is traded.
Stubbs derives almost all his value from getting playing time and baserunning, he’s pretty terrible at making contacts and maybe an average but not good defender. He’s already 27 or 28 so his age/development isn’t a huge factor, mostly the fact that he’s cost-controlled through arb years is his upside. Doesn’t seem like something Friedman would target. I think a Shields trade would almost have to net Mesoraco/Yonder or another MLB-ready bat we could put in at 1B, if not from your system, then in a 3-way trade.
Thanks for dropping by with the insight on Alonso. Would love to get Mesoraco if Shields is involved, or Grandal if it’s any of our other SPs.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
I don't like Price for Morrison and Sanchez
Nor do I like a scenario where we get 1 young player for Shields. I can deal with the other ones.
Under construction
ha ha ha ha
Red Sox sign Nick Punto to a two-year contract. Nick Punto!
.......
ryan glass
@rglass44 ryan glass
I can’t wait till Youks goes down this season, and the SAWX are throwing out a lineup with the Piranha at 3B every game.
oh OTM
so beautiful, yet so full of crazy:
“Considering some of the contracts handed out for bench and utility infielders this off-season, a two-year deal [for Nick Punto!] for so little money looks like a steal for Boston.” — Marc Normandin, who really ought to know better
“Dammit, just posted my first fanpost on this! Whatever. I really like this deal. He slides perfectly into Lowrie’s spot.” — someone who actually made a fanpost about Nick Punto
“I’ll take it. I know that the .278 from last season is not what he really is, but maybe he can do that again, and we all know that he will get his walks and provide a decent OBP.” — someone who does not understand what “OBP” means
This is delightful. I really haven’t stopped giggling.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with Steve on this:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nick-punto-to-sign-with-boston/
Despite all the internal snark tossed his way, Nick Punto is actually a valuable player. He won’t hit for much power at all — he’s a lock to hit one home run each season — but he has good plate discipline (10% career walk rate), he doesn’t strike out often (16% career), and he plays average to above average defense at shortstop, second base, and third base. In many ways, he’s an ideal bench player; he may not be an offensive powerhouse, but he has his uses offensively and he can play great defense anywhere in the infield. "Nick Punto: He Does The Little Things Right." Except this cliche has a basis in truth.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats.
that's crazy
here, see if you can spot the “one of these things is not like the other” line:
48 72 68 90 53 96 67 71 127
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
Um... The last item has three digits.
Ah! Yes.
I don’t think anyone is lauding this signing as: “Teh Reed Sox finally get a BIG BAT 4 the bench!”
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats.
2011 Red Sox: the Best Team of All Time!
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
HAHAHAHA
That’s why Theo took his talents to CHI town.
by BUCSwillDOMINATE on Dec 14, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
+1
I’ve never met any team with as many stupidly unrealistic fans as the sox
by benderbrodriguez on Dec 14, 2011 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
on a similar note
i was over at McCovey Chronicles having a debate with some peeps over there and they cant seem to figure out why it is in the Giants best interest to lock up players like Madison Bumgarner to long term deals (similar to Matt Moore’s) They cant understand why they should take the risk on 8 years when they can go year to year in arbitration….now do you see why i hang out over here?
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
Ya i'm sure you're going to love paying Lincecum $20MM+ for the last 2 arb years.
Not saying anything would have been able to be done in that scenario as we weren’t with Price, but Arbitration prices are absolutely insane and only getting worse.
i have accepted the lincecum fate
but i refuse to believe that matt cain cant be locked up for cheaper and i really refuse to believe that bumgarner cant be locked up for something close to 8yr/55 mil. I wish sabean would get ahead of these trends. also with Derek Holland looking at an extension in Texas i think that is worth exploring even more.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 15, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
8/55 is awfully risky for a pitcher
by benderbrodriguez on Dec 15, 2011 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
i agree
but i think it is one of those things where if lincecum is making 25mil a season (which looks like a real possibility) I would rather have bumgarner for 6 more years and 5 million.
i think this is where player evaluations/mechanical issues and injury histories need to have their due diligence done, but it could pay off huge…imagine if Matt Moore puts up lincecum numbers…that deal has the potential to be one of the greatest contracts in MLB history.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 15, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed completely.
To make any real sense though from the organizational side there need to be options on the end. It might cause a higher potential payday for the player while still guaranteeing them a solid payday to take care of them for the rest of their lives. like I think really it would have to be like 8/$60-65MM but only like 5/$25-30 guaranteed.
Ya, wasn't meant negatively and after his Cy Young seasons I doubt anything could have been done with Lincecum.
The Cain contract is interesting. I never really looked into it before. They did a nice job with the first contract they signed him to, but would have been nice to get 2-3 options instead of the 1. I really don’t see why the 2nd extention was done unless there was no way they were able to negotiate something better. They already had him under contract for 2 of the 3 years once accounting for guaranteeing his option year. They then paid $16.75MM for his 1st FA year ($1MM bonus + $0.75MM more in 2011 + $15MM 2012). It seems if an extention was possible they could have worked a 2nd or 3rd FA year into that deal.
A Bumgarner extention would depend entirely upon if he reaches Super 2 or 127 will be less than that. Since his Super 2 isn’t guaranteed I could see something like 1, 2.5, 5, 8, 11, 14, 15, 16. I’d want those last years to be options, but it all depends if you view the real him as 2011 or 2010. I don’t see something much better than that getting signed if they were to extend him after his really good season. Adds up to a total of 8/$72.5MM which is on the high side, but to get 3 years of FA right now will probably cost a lot. Just for the financial security I could see something along the lines of 8/$60MM at best.
8/60 w/ club options
i would do that.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 15, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
Ya it definitely seems doable and a good deal for the Giants.
Campare it to the Moore deal of 8/$40MM, but when you take 1 minimum year and turn it into a FA year it will add another $15MM or so to get the contract done. He has shown a longer history of success at the MLB level, so I think it would be a good deal for the Giants and Bumgarner.
you should hang out at McCovey Chronicles
they have the hardest time thinking in the long term and they are way more pessimistic which helps add to the humor of it all.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
that's the blog whose best/head writer is more of a wannabe comedian than an actual analyst, correcT?
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
i would say yes
while it is amusing for a time, it gets old because that kind of journalism leads to off topic dribble and incoherent ramblings rather than baseball discussion. I mean i am like pulling teeth over there trying to get people to see that Bumgarner should be bought out of arbitration and that a window to buy low on Posey is open now due to injury and will slam shut soon. you think it would be easier to tell people there is a way to make sure you don’t have to say good-bye to young talented SP’s right when they hit their prime, but no.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
i'm not a fan of his kind of humor. i'm even less of a fan of offtopic discussion.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
Interesting take.
I’m a fan of Grant’s work, but I also know there’s no way I can be like him…that sort of humor has to come naturally.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
Follow @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Dec 14, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe you should discuss the merits of OTTs with him to help keep his baseball discussions guided?
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
by pudieron89 on Dec 14, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
i guess i could try
but i am kind of new there so i should probably reserve criticism.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 15, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
thats the thing
sometimes it feels forced.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 15, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
only sometimes?
it’s not my style of humor i’ll admit. just kinda grates on me reading an article, i quickly realize he’s the one writing it.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
yeah
i mean i dont hate it, but i certainly dont love it. The reason i hang out here is because it is opposite of MCC. for example, people ask me if i am being sarcastic, whereas over there people ask me why im not being sarcastic….too many jokes not enough baseball.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 15, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
Luckily, this place recently took care of that exact problem.
Everything should be ON TOPIC. No excuses.
@RealNolenBailey
Yeah, I think it's a pretty solid move.
Lowrie and Punto are washes. Lowrie has potential to be a full-time player, but I think Punto is a better bench player…which is what the Sox need. So for comparable money, they improved that spot on their roster while also adding an intriguing bullpen arm.
Also, this is nuts (last three seasons):
Punto: 4.9 WAR
Lowrie: 1.9 WAR
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
Follow @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Dec 14, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
that's fWAR
bWAR, you have 0.6, 0.7, 1.5 over the past three seasons (and we all agree that 2011 is a fluke, right?)
If you’re talking about a defense-first signing, would you really rather have the 34-year-old Punto over the 28-year-old Lowrie?
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
if your telling me i get to pay 1 million dollars more per season
and get to have nick punto, his glove, and his career slash line is .249/.325/.327 riding my bench then hell yes. the guy won the world series last year. doesnt that count for anything?
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
I can't tell if this is a parody post, seriously
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
let me just say
that most of my posts are sarcastic
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
Judging by his RBI comment earlier, I'm guessing no.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats.
c'mon guys
has sarcasim no place in baseball?
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Sarcasm has no place on the internet, not because it wasn't invited,
but because no one knows when it arrives and when it goes.
Kind of like a vagrant.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats.
Hates homeless, added to woodrum.rtf
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
homeless or hobo
makes a big difference one is that way by choice.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
He's the 1% of bloggers that doesn't live in their mom's basement
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Dec 14, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
#occupyhousingmarket
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
fair enough
i try not to waste anyone’s time, but sometimes a little snarky comment is appropriate. i will try not to abuse it.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
If he plays better defense than Lowrie does, why not?
Offensively, yes, last season was a fluke. But he hasn’t been worth less than 1 fWAR since 2008. He’s a good bench player. Lowrie has potential, but the Sox are swapping out that potential for a potentially dominant reliever. So that seems like a fair deal overall.
As a side note, I prefer to stick with fWAR when evaluating current position players. bWAR has uses for historical reasons and all, but two reasons: a) I don’t see how you can improve upon wOBA and wRAA in terms of rating offensive performance, and b) I don’t trust TZ anymore than I trust UZR.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
Follow @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Dec 14, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
"potentially dominant reliever"
everything i am reading says that boston is still looking for a closer.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
Are you reading their minds too?
Yeah, he may not be their closer in 2012, but he will be someday if he keeps it up.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats.
hi mark melancon
nice to meet you I’m Daniel Bard.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
/rotation'd
Well, maybe.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
Follow @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Dec 14, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Bard hasn't pitcher as a SP since 2007 in A ball
and that didnt go too well. so i’m not sure that will work out.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
For some reason, Bard is going to the rotation
They do however, still want Madson, though.
Under construction
He supposed to be moving to the rotation
Boom. Outta Here.
Follow @RyanGilliss
by Ryan Gilliss on Dec 14, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
is that long term or is that going to be
until lackey returns?
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Depends how he does
May not even make the rotation out of ST or he may be in for the rest of his career and anywhere in the middle. I believe they thought of this before the Lackey injury news.
Under construction
it'll be nice not having him throw 100 mph, hope he fails miserably.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
if I were Cherington
I would be doing everything I could to get the 2012 payroll under $178MM so as to reset the luxury tax rate. Instead, he’s spent an extra million bucks to downgrade to a 34-year-old backup backup infielder and another million and a half on Kelly Shoppach.
Oh, and the Red Sox just shipped out some of their marginal SP depth — on a team with three starters, mind you — for a reliever.
I guess if the plan is to blow through the luxury tax cap and pay 40% in 2012 (and 50% in 2013), well, then excelsior to you, Ben Cherington. But I don’t think that’s very smart.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
this.
see these were my thoughts, but i chose to be a smart ass.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Eh, you're assuming they care about money.
I’m not so sure it’s as big a concern for them. I’m sure they’d like to get under the threshold if possible, but I also don’t think it’s the guiding principle of their offseason.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
Follow @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Dec 14, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure I agree...
they’ve always been pretty cognizant of not jumping over ~ 160M, and seem more comfortable around 140M. I think that their budget does come into play eventually…and they have a lot of long term commitments and holes to fill.
Boom. Outta Here.
Follow @RyanGilliss
by Ryan Gilliss on Dec 14, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
Luchino is in charge though now
Maybe he has the direct line to John Henry’s wallet.
Yeah, true enough.
I guess I just don’t see this move as a budget issue. Some of the Sox’s moves, yeah, potentially.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
Follow @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Dec 14, 2011 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
it might be a weird interdivision trade
but I bet Lueke could fill the Red Sox’s holes.
this isn't DRB
you don’t get a free pass for acting like a douchebag.
Derp
by Pikachu on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 15, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
also
the Red Sox were $8MM away from a crippling luxury tax threshhold (40% this year and 50% next year). Then they went out and spent $3MM per season on Kelly Shoppach to be their backup catcher and Nick Punto to be their backup backup infielder (behind Scutaro and Aviles).
I don’t see how anyone can laud those moves.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
But Punto won't cost any more, since he's just replacing Lowrie.
And Melancon will make the minimum.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
Follow @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Dec 14, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
didn't realize Lowrie was arb eligible
so I take that part back. Of course, they could have traded Scutaro instead of Punto….
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
heres what i will say about nick punto
the guy is good at fielding and with his fielding and the aging left side of the Sox D he might win a silver slugger.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
34-year-old utility infielders don't have a terrific track record of success
and I don’t think you meant Silver Slugger there, did you?
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
i was kidding
cause gold gloves often go to fielder with the better bat (ie derek jeter) so it makes sense that silver sluggers go to the better fielders
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
oh, that's kind of funny, now that you explain it
plus Punto is going to get like 50 AB
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
I heard a funny rumor about Marc Normandin last season..
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
can't pretend there aren't Rays fans here that don't show the same homerism.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
+1
I don’t think anyone can rightfully contend their team has more “ballin” ability than the Rays
by benderbrodriguez on Dec 14, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
You know an under the radar guy for DH/1B/3B if Longo gets hurt
Juan Fransisco, another young guy that is blocked by the Reds. Enormous power, young enough at 25 I think and most importantly, out of options. I can certainly see him tossed in any deal we make with the Reds.
Under construction
I'm flashing back to this
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
at least it wasn't Garza!
But holy crap that was hammered.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
billy hamilton
is also intriguing
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
he is slightly one-dimensional
but it would be longerish shot
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
Great power.
If he would walk more, I would prefer him to Alonso because of his power.
No matter how much they are hyped, my teams always find a way to disappoint.
by thedudeofdudes on Dec 14, 2011 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
Espn is always wrong
But they think we are discussing upton and wade for Alonso and granda
Under construction
not we, Jim Bowden
That was one of his ideas today. He also thought Yankees should trade Nova, Betances, and Montero for Felix.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Dec 14, 2011 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
Would that be enough to pry away Felix?
by benderbrodriguez on Dec 14, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
i would consider it if i were seattle
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
for 2 years of Felix?
I’d take that. I think Nova is overrated, but I think Montero is a legit middle-of-the-order bat. I prefer Banuelos to Betances, but at the end of the day, if it’s take-it-or-leave-it, I think that’s fair.
Upton and Davis for Alonso and Grandal isn’t enough value to the Rays, IMO.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
Mariners could use the offense
And no way they will be able to afford to re sign Felix.
But please don’t trade him to the Yankees, guys.
Under construction
I didn't say I *wanted* this deal to go down!
just that if I were Jack Z, I’d take it. And if I were Cashman, I’d offer it.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 14, 2011 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Seattle needs to move Felix
whether to the Yankees or some other suitor…(Rangers, Blue Jays, etc) They need to realize that their time is not going to be with Felix but rather with Pineda, Hultzen, Walker, Paxton, Campos, etc. they need an impact bat.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 15, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Agree
This is why I do not believe that the Rays could pry Smoak from them. We simply do not match up well with them.
by Moore Guerreri and Cheese on Dec 15, 2011 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
"we" none of us actually know what Friedman is wheeling around, we're just as right/wrong as the 4 letter network is.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
thanks for ruining it
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
All this talk about making big time moves for impact players...who are we kidding?
Rays probably end up trading Neimann/Davis to the Reds for Grandal(looking forward to late 2012 or 2013), signing Magglio Ordonez to be the DH and trading a C prospect to the A’s for Daric Barton
Which, if nothing else pans out for AF, might not be the worst moves. Fills out needs and the roster to start the season and leaves room for deadline deals come July.
I say Rays resign Damon and wind up trading for a 1B not as highly rated as Yonder Alonso
The good news is if Upton has a monster FA year, S-Rod busts out like I predicted, Joyce gets more consistent and of course Longoria should make much better contact than he did in 2011, we can win with basically the same team because our front 4 will be Price, Shields, Hellickson and Moore.
Under construction
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