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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Rich Harden and an 11-Man Pitching Staff


The idea of an 11-man pitching staff has not left my mind since Erik's interview with Andrew Friedman where he asked him a question regarding an 11-man pitching staff. Friedman responded by saying "To this point, we've found that twelve pitchers has made the most sense. Having twelve allows us to make the right tactical moves on a nightly basis to win games while still supporting our starters and keeping them strong."

The answer Friedman gave makes complete sense. It allows Joe Maddon to create tough matchups by keeping one extra arm in the pen and assures a rested pen. But, with Big Game James switching his nickname to Complete Game James in 2011 the Rays bullpen was much more rested than ever and that 12th man was rarely used.

After the Rays acquired Josh Lueke from the Mariners in the John Jaso trade I took a long look at Lueke and saw that eight of his last 13 games he pitched more than an inning and up to three innings at times. This is a guy that can give the Rays multiple relief innings and potentially do it regular basis.

The fact that the Rays acquired a power reliever with the ability to go multiple innings and not be a mop up guy got me thinking about the 11-man pitching staff. What would it take to run a team like this? One free agent came to mind that could help make this vision a reality and his name is Rich Harden.

Star-divide

Harden has battled injuries and seen a major decrease in groundball rates which has led to a crazy spike in his homerun rates. Since 2008 his HR/9 rate has gone from 0.67-1.47-1.76-1.85. That coincides with his groundball rate going from the mid-40% range early in his career to 37.8% in 2009, 34.5% in 2010, and 31.5% in 2011.

As one would conclude from the major increase in homerun rate, his ERA went from 2.07 in 2008 to 5.12 in 2011 with a career worse 5.58 in 2010. Most of those stats are probably scaring you by now, and they should, but there is some hope of excellence in that arm.

Harden strikes out a lot of batters. He has a career 9.2 K/9 and has a 10.1 K/9 since 2008. He does walk a lot of guys but thanks to high strikeout rates his xFIP has been below 3.70 in four of the past five seasons.

Harden has done nearly all of his work as a starter in his career and over the past four seasons. The recent lack of success, high pitch counts, and constant injuries would lead one to believe he would be willing to take a relief pitching role. But not just any relief pitching role, a multiple-inning relief role in high-leverage situations.

Harden has pitched exceptionally well in his career in the first inning of a game with 180 strikeouts in 160 innings of facing team's 1-2-3 hitters. Even better is that he has fared well in the 2nd inning of games, facing the middle of the team's order and posting 177 strikeouts in 160 innings.

I point that out because Harden has excelled in the first two innings of a game he pitches in while facing the best hitters on a team. He has a 2.73 K/BB rate, 10.0 K/9, and a 3.29 ERA in those first two innings and has held opponents to a .206 batting average.

Harden, though, starts to wear down after the first two innings with steep drops in ERA, HR/9, and K/9 in his third inning of work.

Also, if the Rays do not trade any starting pitchers they could easily put one of Niemann, Davis, or Moore/Cobb in the pen and add yet another multiple-inning arm to the bullpen mix.

If the Rays could work out a deal to get Harden in as a reliever, add him to Lueke, and Jake McGee, the Rays would have three relievers who could put in multiple innings of work. Add one of the plethora of starters to the mix and I believe the Rays very well could work with an 11-man pitching staff in 2012.

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Comments

Display:

I was on this boat last off-season, but have cooled off

I liked him as a potential closer candidate because his OPS in 1st PA in games by year:

548
528
462
516
418
695

719
874

Last year was a huge spike so we don’t know if it is an outlier or the continuance of the four year tend he has had the past four seasons.

His OPS in his first 25 pitches in a game per year

499
475
627
305
371
765
788
1027

Same trend, with a more extreme spike since he gave up 12 extra base hits in those 92 PA which was the same total he gave up in 143 PA two seasons prior.

He has held his velocity despite the injuries

But that split/change of his has lost the same bite it had a few seasons ago and that is what got a lot of his swings and misses.

I’ll take him on a Benoit 2010-like deal, but not a guaranteed deal like Peralta was given.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 2, 2011 11:00 AM EST reply actions  

I was thinking more of a Peralta type deal. If he'd come on a Benoit deal then this is a no-brainer.

I really hope he doesn’t ask for a Broxton type deal. The graph is very telling and explains why his wCH was -5.1 last year.

by jcmitchell on Dec 2, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

He is a 2-pitch dude these days

If he falls behind, he’s a one-pitch guy. His command just isn’t sharp enough for me to throw guaranteed money at him. He’s always intrigued me, but what I saw of him this year troubled me.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 2, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Understood.

I still see potential for a two-inning reliever but I completely see the caution around him.

by jcmitchell on Dec 2, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Another name that I was wondering about.

Where is the Duke?

Will Justin Duchscherer be someone’s reclamation project next year and will he finally agree to be a bullpen guy?

Hip surgery in August and hasn’t pitched since April 29, 2010.

by MrNegative1 on Dec 2, 2011 11:37 AM EST reply actions  

Good call.

Haven’t really given him much thought at all. Could easily be a multiple inning reliever.

by jcmitchell on Dec 2, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Hip is a complete disaster at this point

Maybe he could be another Izzy but every time that guy gets on the mound, he’s walking off it 2 days later in pain.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 2, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Multiple inning relievers

One of my favorite pitchers in the late 1990s, early 2000s was Ramiro Mendoza who filled the role once known as swing man. In emergencies, he would take a start or even a series of starts. Otherwise, he pitched long relief or middle relief or even worked as a set-up man. It seemed to me his versatility was valuable as he was reasonably effective in all those roles.

Note that in 2008, Howell pitched 3 innings six times, 2 innings an additional 17 times and between 1-2 innings another eight times. Even in 2009 when he became the de facto closer, he pitched 2 innings four times and 1+ another 9 times. Another reason to hope his second year back from injury has him fit to return to his pre-injury form.

I don’t think Maddon is dogmatic about reliever usage. He seems willing to go the LaRussa route and change pitchers for every batter, but he has also seemed interested in pushing relievers to go more than an inning at a time. I would love to see the bullpen composed of at least a few multi-inning pitchers rather than specialists by inning or handedness.

Forget specific names for the moment. Wouldn’t it be interesting if the Rays rotation were Price, Shields, Hellickson, Moore, Niemann with a bullpen of Davis, Howell, Lueke, McGee, Peralta, Farnsworth and Torres? (You can substitute any names you like.) Davis becomes a Mendoza like swing man who occasionally starts (10-15 starts?) to keep Moore’s innings down or to give Hellickson some extra rest. Otherwise he comes in early if a pitcher is failing or works the middle innings. Or Torres might be called on instead. Or perhaps an 11 man staff becomes more workable with these type of pitchers.

Meanwhile, Howell and Lueke can be used for 2 innings if needed which rests the other relievers.

Obviously there are many factors to consider. Whether the pitchers are capable of filling such roles and pitching in an unfamiliar routine is one question. Was Howell’s injury due to overwork is another-and if so, would another pitcher likely suffer the same fate?

I understand the value of specialists, but the trade-off in roster construction and flexibility might be worth the loss, especially if there remain pitchers on the staff who can still be used in special situations (McGee? Howell?) but are not limited to them as for example Choate (and later Wheeler) was.

by bobr on Dec 2, 2011 12:14 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

It's no secret I love Torres in the pen for all of 2012

And I hope the Rays go that way.

Personally the only things I would change about the pen is replace Howell with Gomes and Neimann in the pen, Davis as the #5. I just prefer Davis and maybe as a RP, Neimann can actually last a full year.

When people say we have 8 starters, they are counting Torres but I don’t see him starting anytime soon, he would be in the pen with hopefully Neimann and sorry Cobb but I just love Moore.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I still switch Neimann and Davis in that scenario

But overall, it sounds like a pretty awesome pen. We just have to hope Stu, Friedman and Maddon didn’t get high and choose Cobb over Moore in the rotation.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I hate super two

It shouldn’t even be allowed for a team to send a guy who went 7 scoreless with 2 hits allowed against a great offense in the playoffs in by the way, just his 2nd career start. That man should not be allowed to be back in the minors ever.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

this is what we call "perverse incentives"

or perhaps “the law of unintended consequences”

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 2, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I forgot Torres.

He could easily be in the mix. I just would love to see an 11-man pitching staff work. I think the Rays can make it happen.

by jcmitchell on Dec 2, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

And I forgot Gomes,

but as I said, the names did not matter to me. It is the concept of having a bullpen with at least 3 or 4 multiple inning relievers, perhaps 1 or 2 who could start in a pinch. Seems to me if that is the approach, we may have the talent on hand and no need to spend on free agents. But if the talent is deemed inadequate, or if we do not want to use possible starters like Cobb, Davis, Niemann, Torres in the bullpen, might we find better alternatives outside the system that could fill the bill better?

by bobr on Dec 2, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn't we try that this year?

We had the 6 man rotation with Cobb and a revolving door of minor leaguers kept having to fill that 6th bullpen spot because guys kept needing rest. I don’t have great memories of that.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

Keep forgetting that.

But I mean, do we even have 14 hitters? We just let Elliot on the roster all season and we only had 13 guys. I know Guyer would have to be in the majors if we did this.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

It would open the door for more.

We could now, hypothetically, sign Branyan and Damon and still trade for a 1B. Or keep Elliot and his good defense & base running up. Or sing a platoon at 1B. It opens up a lot of possibilities.

by jcmitchell on Dec 2, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

But that is sort of the point.

Last year, Rays relievers rarely pitched 2 or more innings in an outing. Gomes did it most often, 5 times with one of them a 3 inning outing. Others did it either never or just 3 or 4 times at most. Not one regular reliever had as many innings pitched as outings.

That is one reason it was necessary to keep rotating pitchers from AAA-to avoid using relievers too many days in a row since instead of using just one or two relievers to finish a game, Maddon often had to use 3 or 4, each getting just a few outs. It is also why he prefers a 7 man bullpen to 6 relievers.

Multi-inning relievers would allow him to use fewer relievers while getting more innings from the bullpen if necessary. The key, of course, is that the pitchers have to be just as effective over 2 or 3 innings as they are for one or for just a couple of batters-or at least good enough so that the trade-off for greater flexibility and an extra bench player is worth the change.

by bobr on Dec 2, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

so do the Winter Meetings start today? or when?

Maybe because we had so much to do last off-season or because they were in Florida it seems there was much more talk. I think we have to move one of our pitchers this year though whether it be a Niemann/Davis/Cobb/Torres or a Shields/Price I think something has to be done. We are looking at a 6 man rotation or a starter in the pen to start the year, even with Moore being stashed in AAA, we will deal with what to do with him when his Super 2 day passes when that day comes. Even though we don’t have as much to do I’m more excited about this year because Andrew Friedman can be more focused on the 2 or 3 moves he needs to make instead of needing to make 7 or 8 roster moves, and hopefully he can avoid any illnesses or surgeries like the deadline.

by Dbullsfan on Dec 2, 2011 12:27 PM EST reply actions  

Monday morning

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 2, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks

it should be fun, AF should be able to sit back and say hey send me offers for pitchers, if the offer is right he really cant go wrong trading any of our guys. Ideally we would like to see either Davis/Niemann moved, but if someone comes offering more for Cobb or Torres, I don’t think many are going to be too upset

by Dbullsfan on Dec 2, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

All 0 of us that wanted Capuano are out of luck

He’s a Dodger.

Do you think we should of tried a minor league deal with Talbot? He wound up signing with Samsung to make TV’s, I think.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 1:30 PM EST reply actions  

Rich Harden has shown tremendous reluctance to move to the bullpen in past

If he wants to try reinventing himself there though there’s literally no better place than Tampa Bay

by benderbrodriguez on Dec 2, 2011 2:26 PM EST reply actions  

There's one guy I don't we can fix

Andy Sonnanstine. Ok, everyone already knows that.

I don’t think being a Ray would ever fix Brad Penny but maybe that’s just because I really don’t like that dude, don’t yell at S-Rod, ya fat ass.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he meant more in the lines of adding value to yourself.

Like Benoit, Balfour, Choate… all turned their time in Tampa Bay into good money.

by jcmitchell on Dec 2, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

This

Friendly ballpark and ++defense to artificially lower your ERA drastically, but also AL East street cred (does Soriano get 3/35 [despite being a type A] from the yankees if he puts up the numbers he did playing in a different division? doubtful)

by benderbrodriguez on Dec 2, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Winter Meeting Targets

both of these guys could be “buy high” candidates. Or they could be ready for full-time duty, depending if you are a half-full, half-empty guy. If the Florida Marlins sign Jose Reyes, what becomes of Emilio Bonifacio? Posted excellent numbers last year, with a slight above-average BABIP. Allen Craig was huge in post-season and good all-around numbers in regular season. Would you be interested in either of these players? If the Rays could do a Morrison/Bonifacio trade, what would it cost? Davis + what?

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 2, 2011 3:41 PM EST reply actions  

maybe Bonifacio

However, Allen Craig would be an awesome pick up, I see 30 homers in him and he can play 1B or the OF pretty well, that would be an awesome pick up.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I had a friend from Miami and a friend from Atlanta.

They used to have intense debates over who had the worse player, between Bonifacio and Francoeur. I don’t think my heart could take it, trading for Bonifacio.

Bonifacio had a .373 BABIP last year. Sure he’s fast, but that’s real high, and it helped him to a .097 ISO, his best ISO since A+. He’s Jaso without the plate discipline. He’s Fuld without the power (and with twice the K%). If he sustains his offensive success, I’ll eat my hat.

I love Craig.

by Whelk on Dec 2, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

Not sold on Bonifacio and see major regression. Craig is intriguing but I don’t think the Cards trade him.

by jcmitchell on Dec 2, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

BABIP was 40 points above his average

not horribly higher. Some regression expected. Entering age 27 season. I wouldn’t risk a lot via trade. But there’s not a lot of regression to expect via career numbers over 500 AB season. Speed makes him a 40 SB candidate, especially on a team like the Rays. Only has about 700 AB before last year, so not a huge body of work. Even then about a .250-.260 avg hitter who walks about 10% of the time. Can’t expect .300, but even .270 would be a welcome relief. Remember what the Rays got from the SS spot last year. I’d love a Morrision/Bonifacio for Davis/’spect deal.

Imagine a lineup with Bonifacio-Jennings-Upton 9-1-2 in the order. That’s a lot of speed. And very much fits the Rays way.

There’s enough there to give it a shot.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 2, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

both?

don’t believe it’s an either/or. Maddon loves the running game and the pressure it puts on opposing defenses. Rays have consistently ranked in top 3 or so in SB in Maddon’s tenure.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 2, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

My point is the Rays don't gravitate towards speedy players, but players who play defense

Assuming the Rays had big bucks and that these guys were on the market (neither of which are true) we wouldn’t spend on guys like Matt Kemp, Coco Crisp, Ryan Braun, etc who are speedy but bad at defense

by benderbrodriguez on Dec 2, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I gotta believe all 30 teams would be calling Kemp and Braun

It’s not like good defense or nothing, we were ready to let Damon play LF all year last year.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a good point I forgot about what we meant to do signing Johnny

And although obviously we’d love to have guys like them we wouldn’t spend our dollars on them to buy what the market price is, we’d spend them on other players is my point

by benderbrodriguez on Dec 2, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

again, I say it's a blend

Rays ideally strive for both. It’s rare for the Rays to target slow, plodding players, just as all bat, no glove players are normally not the Rays target.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 2, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess what I'm saying is we don't mind guys like the Kotchmonster who can play defense but are shitslow

It doesn’t seem like we explicitly target speed, just that we look for guys who’re good on defense many of whom are fast

by benderbrodriguez on Dec 2, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

The Rays want good players.

I don’t actually believe in a Rays way when it comes to player acquisition. I think the Rays way is to try to accurately value all aspects of a player’s game. That’s meant good defense, because other teams were undervaluing it. It’s meant running, because good defensive players are often fast, and it’s important to get the most out of your players.

by Whelk on Dec 2, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

and yet the Rays were willing to have Damon in LF, if not for Manny retiring

They make exceptions where they have to. Again, I feel they do both equally. They like the running game. They like defense. I just don’t feel it’s an either/or.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 2, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, they were willing to let Damon play LF

Because they thought that the defenseless Manny and the not far off Damon were good enough bats that they were the best players available.

My point is that they don’t prefer any type of player, just ones that offer good value. The market dictates who those players are.

by Whelk on Dec 2, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree

I believe the Rays prefer a certain type of player. But they are willing to make exceptions to take advantage of the current market. Ultimately the Rays value the undervalued and try to exploit it, whether that be defense, baserunning, positional flexibility, whatever, etc.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 2, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

this.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 2, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

If they keep Pujols where the hell are they going to play him? AAA? The bench?

The market for him might be too expensive but if they keep big Al I highly doubt they don’t trade him

by benderbrodriguez on Dec 2, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

but Cards rotation pretty well set, so curious as to how we would match up in a deal. Alex Torres?

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 2, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Sean Rodriguez maybe?

Don’t they like not have a 2nd baseman?

by benderbrodriguez on Dec 2, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

That's probably a bit of an overpay

Sean Rodriguez has been an above average contributor each of the last two years and Torres is still highly regarded

by benderbrodriguez on Dec 2, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

true but 5 years of team control

for a 20-30 HR capable bat with contact skills, who can also play multiple positions (which gives corner INF and OF flexibility) and I believe we could have Zobrist 2.0 here (without the dominant D, of course).

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 2, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

The only reason we have a real chance

is because a lot of the Cards FO liked Craig, Tony was in love with the guy though and now, he gone.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Right.

Even then, how would we trade a pitcher for anything but a 1B? I’m guessing that would mean Kotchman comes back, and I’d rather see Damon and Alonso than Craig and Kotchman.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 2, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, Craig would be our 1B

but S-Rod and Torres sounds a little much to me also. Especially when you realize that it will be Brignac and Elliot at SS all year.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

i think we are forgetting how hard it is to acquire good bats

Especially right handed power. Longoria-Joyce-zobrist-Craig is a very awesome middle of the order with multiple years of control. One of few rh power bats available, if available at all.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 2, 2011 5:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Well, while that might be true

Something that is definatley true is we gotta hope for a miracle out of no where at SS. Elliot is not the answer, so just forget him. That would leave it to someone finally fixing that disgusting Brignac swing or Beckham being in the majors and being productive. Out of no where, it feels like Sean is by far our safest option at SS until Lee is ready.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, OK

I guess I missed that point.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 2, 2011 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

But think about where they play him

1B – Pujols
3B – Freese
OF, he doesnt play CF so Holliday and Berkman

I guess they can decide not to care about errors and put him at 2B but otherwise, he’s a PH’er and nothing more.

Although, I am probably saying this because I would love to have Craig on the Rays

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 2, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

but with veterans, I could see him getting a spot start nearly 1x/wk for each of those guys

and providing valuable injury insurance. That said, I still think there’s a chance he gets moved.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 2, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

How is that not enough to justify keeping him?

No team will get rid of someone because they cannot find a way to give him 600 PAs. If they are overwhelmed with an offer they will trade but until then they will use him and if that is in 400 PAs then so be it.

by jcmitchell on Dec 2, 2011 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

It's an inefficient allocation of resources

When we had six starters, we didn’t move one to the pen. We traded our extra guy

by benderbrodriguez on Dec 2, 2011 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

But we never undervalued them because of excesss.

What I am saying is that the Cards won’t trade him simply because he can’t play everyday and they won’t drop his value. They would rather find those 400 PAs then trade him for less value.

by jcmitchell on Dec 4, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

The Rangers had Rich Harden for a year

Alert to any team’s fans who picks him up……Take a good book with you to the game. He tends to throw 20 pitches an inning (if he gets them 3-up-3-down), and he’s from the Beckett-Paperbon school of I’ll-pitch-when-I’m-good-and-ready.

by cocanat on Dec 2, 2011 3:57 PM EST reply actions  

Getting more love from MLBTR:
DRays Bay examined the possibility of the Rays using an 11-man pitching staff next season, suggesting Rich Harden as a potential free agent target to throw multiple relief innings.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 3, 2011 12:15 PM EST reply actions  

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