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The Hit-And-Run Rays Tank

DETROIT, MI - SEPTEMBER 24:  Adam Jones #10 of the Baltimore Orioles catches the ball in center field against the Detroit Tigers during a MLB game at Comerica Park on September 24, 2011 in Detroit, Michigan. The Orioles won 6-5.  (Photo by Dave Reginek/Getty Images)

MLB Chatter

The biggest story yesterday was that Mike Fast published another stellar research piece, this time looking at the hit-and-run. I honestly haven't had a chance to fully digest the whole thing yet, but it's interesting to me how the Rays' use of the hit-and-run varies so much on a yearly basis. I think everyone hit the nose on the button earlier when commenting that the Rays' heavy use of the hit-and-run in 2011 was a result of their roster construction.

I'm somewhat encouraged by the fact that research like the Fast's work still appears in the public domain. Sabermetrics has progressed so far in recent years, but I don't think it's accurate to say that innovation and research are dead. There was that tremendous piece on pitch blocking earlier this fall, and our understanding of certain aspects of baseball keeps continually getting more refined (i.e. SIERA). I wish there were more people out there consistently doing research like Fast, but there's a reason more people don't emulate him: it's difficult, time-consuming stuff. Oh, and many of the people that can do this sort of research have already been snatched up by teams.

Anyway, moving on. Quick hitting links:

  • You should all read this interview with Justin Masterson, like, right now. I had no idea he was such an engaging, fun person, and he sheds some good insight into pitching.
  • Yuniesky Betancourt is back with the Royals. Really, there are no words to state how fitting that is.
  • Marc Normandin took a look at a recent rumor involving Adam Jones -- apparently the Braves were interested in acquiring him. I know Jones was supposed to be one of those pieces the Orioles would build around, but he's getting older before our eyes and it seems likely they O's will need to enter another re-rebuilding phase. He'll probably get dealt sooner or later; it just depends how long it takes for the O's to give up.
  • Over at Grantland, Jonah Keri wrote about the Yankees' quiet offseason. I must say, with all the holes in their rotation, I wasn't expecting them to be this chill.

Rays Talk

There's not much going on in the Rays blogosphere right now, but the most recent rumor involving the Rays links them to Carlos Beltran again. Apparently they're "seriously in the mix", but I'll believe that when they sign him.

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Someone try to put odds on the Rays signing Beltran.

I’ll go with 20-1, and it’s only that good because there have been so many rumors. Probably realistically more like 50-1.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 8:59 AM EST reply actions  

Beltran will be a Ray..take it to the bank.

AF is already preparing to wine and dine Beltran. He can show him a great little Puerto Rican deli near the Trop and take him on the ten minute drive to the beach. Cheap $250 flights to San Juan that are 2 hours and 45 minutes non-stop(for all those trips he will take on off days!). He will already have a new friend, teammate and countryman here in Jose Molina. He won’t have any trouble getting a great deal on a condo in this depressed real estate market in the area.

And most importantly, he can look forward to the "soft’ media in Tampa Bay where the toughest question he will face daily is “how are you adjusting to playing under the dome?”

by budman3 on Dec 22, 2011 9:03 AM EST reply actions  

Only way to possibly do this

-leverage the fact he can play DH as much as he wants here to rest his legs
-better chance at post-season with us than the rest of the AL suitors
-tax breaks
-proximity to his homeland
-weather
-2 year deal with triggers to guarantee 3rd year and/or deferred money that should match up with new TV deal

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 22, 2011 9:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I still think it's going to take a 2 year, 20 million deal with a vesting option, or a club option with a buy-out

It’s not often the Rays can find a 4-5 WAR player on a short-term contract. To put it in perspective, only Pujols and Fielder had a higher WAR this past season, among all free agents.
Beltran is an impact bat. He’s an injury risk, for sure. But he’s someone worth making that risk for. Let’s put it this way. If we were willing to offer 16 to Burrell, we should be willing to offer 20 for Beltran.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 22, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

I would think that there will end up being only a small difference in salary offers between teams interetsed in him.

His leg issues are what is driving his market down into, what is generally described, as the 10-12 million dollar range. And 2-3 years in the likely length of the deal with probably a 3rd year option being acceptable to both parties(especially if there is a friendly “games played” clause written in). A third year guarantee may make the difference but the guy is not with Boras anymore and he has made his millions already, so it will probably come down to his comfort level and the best chance to win a ring he has never had.

In all seriousness, if AF is truly interested in Beltran, he will have to do a sell job that he has never really had to pull off before as a GM.

by budman3 on Dec 22, 2011 9:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Another fair point
RT @injuryexpert: lot of Beltran’s decision will come down to medical staff. knee requires lot of maint.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 22, 2011 9:24 AM EST reply actions  

His knees are basically a chronic condition at this time and he opted not to have micro surgery two years ago which is always risky,

But that decision seemed to have paid off, he did play hard on it all last year and appeared to have survived very well. The Trop’s turf is considered easier on the body than let’ say…Toronto’s, which could be a selling point.

by budman3 on Dec 22, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

He's basically Cliff Floyd at this point, no?

Floyd had a 119 OPS+ prior to joining the Rays for his age-35 season.
Beltran has a 121 OPS+ prior to his age-35 season.

Beltran gave teams more defense/speed value over his career, but he’s basically a DH now, same as Floyd was in ’08.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Dec 22, 2011 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

also, it's reasonable to think that Beltran's career curve won't drop off as sharply

Beltran was much more of an all-around athlete before his knees disintegrated

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 22, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Floyd only had 284 PA's, a .775 OPS and was a 1.1 WAR in the year before he signed with the Rays

Beltran played 142 games in RF, 598 PA, a .905 OPS, and a 4.4 WAR last year.
Yes, his knees are a risk, but last year proved a lot about his health.

by budman3 on Dec 22, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the Rays probably max out at 3/25 for Beltran

Considering that I don’t see any other teams offering much more than 3/36, I think we have a shot.

Not many guys choose to leave 11 million bones on the table, but it’s not unprecedented for a guy to give up money if he truly favors a team or locality. Thome took 1.25 m from the Phillies when he probably could’ve scored 5 m elsewhere. Longo and Matt Moore probably lost out on hundreds of millions of dollars combined for a comfortable situation (I realize the differnces between extensions and FA signings, but still).

Beltran has made 135+ million in salary over his career, maybe he values weather, proximity to PR and a comfortable playing situation more than money. But he probably doesn’t.

by punkfan39126 on Dec 22, 2011 9:37 AM EST reply actions  

Patterns in the market

suggest to me that the top free agents are signing with contenders at unprecedented levels. Werth aside, several top folks have left money on the table to try to make a run at a World Series ring.
With that in mind, the Cardinals, and the Red Sox are our main competition, and I feel the Blue Jays, and Indians just don’t have a serious shot, regardless of the money, especially if Beltran is looking for hist last contract before retirement. He signed with the Mets when they were seen as a rising powerhouse, which suggests to me that this pattern holds true with him, at least to an extent.
We have the advantages listed above over both Boston and St. Louis, and arguable are better positioned to make it to the Series—I think this will be our biggest selling point.
(Teams mentioned as involved from watching Sportscenter last night)

by Moorewinsplease on Dec 22, 2011 9:58 AM EST reply actions  

Contracts like Moore and Longoria are reasons why the Rays should be able to take a risk every now and then

There is no better bat the Rays can find to upgrade their offense for under $100 million than Beltran. It’s not often the Rays get an opportunity to pick up someone like Beltran. If we can spend $7 million on a closer, I hope Andrew convinces $tu this is another exception worth pursuing. I never want the Rays to become a team that buys its players, but this is the type of financial flexibiity I wish the Rays had.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 22, 2011 10:14 AM EST reply actions  

The Rays are the right type of team to take that risk

The ability to DH, and Maddon’s emphasis on resting his players, I think the Rays offer the best chance of any of the teams listed, to keep Beltran healthy.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 22, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Chris Carter sucks

You guys can do much better then the Rod Deer clone who can’t field.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Dec 22, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Rob Deer was white

Not sure how comparing a white player to a black player is racist.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Dec 22, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I was hoping you guys don't want that Chris Carter

He is even worse then bad. He is like watching Omar Vizquel’s bat with Manny Ramirez’s glove.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Dec 22, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

LOL

I thought you were referring to an old tag team since my avatar is Big Daddy Cool Diesel! I am pretty pumped to see the Clips again this year. I caught Blake against the Raptors last year and was pretty amazed by his hops.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Dec 22, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I knew about the CP3 quote

I just didn’t notice your avatar. The Clips are going to be fun to watch. Who has more wins between them and the Lakers?

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Dec 22, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Look at how off-topic this garbage is.

I'll make out with a guy if he knocks it in
by Jason Collette on Jun 11, 2011 9:00 PM CDT
(Kotchman knocked it in)

by Vin on Dec 22, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Would have one of the best lineups 1-6

LF Jennings
CF Upton
DH Beltran
3B Longoria
2B Zobrist
RF Joyce

That’s a more than respectable top two-thirds of a lineup in any division.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 22, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

with no further additions

(and you know they’re going to move Davis/Niemann)

LF Jennings
2B Zobrist
DH Beltran
3B Longoria
CF Upton
1B Joyce
RF Guyer
C Lobaton/Molina
SS Brignac/S-Rod (who hits sixth or higher vs. lefties, obviously)

Man, one Beltran can change your whole day

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 22, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

i feel like that's a championship-caliber team with our pitching.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 22, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

the rotation and the pen

While the 2010 pen will never be beat, the 2012 pitching, overall, is easily the best.

Even if we pull off a miracle and get Beltran, I hope we still trade for Rizzo. Not sure how Joyce would be at 1B.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

with a rotation of Price, Shields, Moore, Hellickson

you’re essentially looking at the 90s Braves all over again

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 22, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Put Duda at 1B, Joyce in RF

Guyer on the bench. WINNER.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I hate the idea of Guyer on the bench.

Real good bench player, but I think it’s a major waste of his talent and ability, and it will ultimately decrease his value.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that's just putting together the best team.

Guyer will most likely start in the minor, assuming we make a couple of good moves…

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

He was pretty good in the majors last season.

I’m a big Guyer supporter, but let’s keep it real here.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

with Brandon Guyer's minor-league track record

why not give Guyer 300 MLB at-bats so that in 2013, you feel the same way about him?

I mean, seriously: there’s really no consistent way to be high on Duda and low on Guyer. They’re essentially the same guy, except that Guyer is toolsier, was drafted higher, and plays much better defense.

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 22, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

But Guyer doesn't play 1B.

Why not give him 300 MLB at-bats? It sounds like we are going all in this year, so Guyer will probably be getting most of his at-bats in AAA>

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

well, my views on this are pretty well-known

but that makes no sense to me.

Guyer isn’t going to double his walk rate by spending another year in Durham, so I don’t see how sending him down helps him. Also, he’s pretty unlikely to become a superstar by age 32, so I don’t see how manipulating his service time helps the Rays. So this strikes me as a lose-lose proposition.

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 22, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, he does deserve a chance,

but sometimes you get blocked by a good team, and I hope that will happen.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

You know, I can see Beltran actually preferring the Rays but us not giving him that 3rd year

Since he has “two and three year offers” We might have an option for a 3rd but I bet that’s why we wont sign Beltran.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 10:41 AM EST reply actions  

Do we do that?

I really have no idea. Some teams don’t do no trade clauses.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

It's protection for the player and Beltran signed with the Mets because they offered(while the Yankees did not)

But it gives him the security that he can’t be peddled around, which BTW, he waived to get trade to the Giants last deadline. Don’t know how AF feels about the clause though, and maybe it could seal a deal.

by budman3 on Dec 22, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Friedman on MLB Network radio -- notes:

*Interest level in SP was anticipated – great position for Rays to be in
*Team has to continually solve for a talent equation with one eye on the future and one eye on the present which leads to swings in payroll until team can get revenue help
*Regarding adding a big bat – team doesn’t work with hard & fast payroll number. There is flexibility to expand payroll, but it does affect future years. Cited paying Soriano in 2010 while taking off the 2011 payroll
*Didn’t get caught up in the off-season job rumors because the professional satisfaction of doing what the Rays do in the ALE also brings a lot of personal satisfaction to him & the personal dynamic w/in the organization is that good
*First base & DH: Kotch is still in the conversation – looking at who can generate the most offense while maintaining defensive expectations. Zobrist is NOT an option at 1st because his value at 2B & RF is too great

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 22, 2011 10:46 AM EST reply actions  

Interesting

If they will spend now but not the future, could we swing a multi year deal for Beltran?

Kotchman better only be “break in case nothing else fit” box. He’s ok, but we should really improve.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

You might not like Barton, Joeybw...

But if the Rays could afford Beltran and had $0 left for a 1st baseman(as a stop gap), they could trade nothing for Barton and only have to find 1.5 million for him. Kotchman is still going to cost 3 million(if he agrees to a 1 year deal,,,doubtful).

I would take the offensive gain from Beltran and the defense that Barton brings and settle for whatever Barton gives with the bat..and he at least is an on base machine, takes a lot of pitches, and an average bat(for his career).

by budman3 on Dec 22, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Tell you what

We get Beltran signed, I won’t even mind Barton.

Of course, I still hope Rizzo will be waiting in Durham, though.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Please, no more Barton talk

For the sake of my stomach, which turns every time you mention him.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

There's not enough Pepto in the world...

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

also

*Prospects mean more to team than anyone else due to the revenue gaps within the ALE, even before the change in the CBA
*Changes in CBA aren’t helping small-market teams over the 1st 5 years but if old agreement would have maintained, it could have been even more damaging because smaller revenue teams would have had less access to talent
*

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 22, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Said over the next 3 days, wouldn't bet on something happening for the roster

But also wouldn’t bet against it.

Such a typical non-committal answer from him :)

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 22, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

So the old

Look for us to stay the same unless we sign someone line?

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

from BA chat yesterday:
Ben (Leland Grove): What went wrong with Josh Sale’s swing this year, and how far down the list did he fall? Are you confident he can regain it, and is he likely headed back to Princeton?


Bill Ballew: I believe it was more of a mental thing than any other aspect. He got a little pull happy and seemed completely out of rhythm. In people I’ve spoken with, some believe he had so many things going through his head that it was paralysis by analysis. Hopefully he can clear his mind this winter and arrive in spring training with a clean slate. He’s likely headed to Princeton or Hudson Valley.

that’s certainly much better than the alternative.

by rglass44 on Dec 22, 2011 10:51 AM EST reply actions  

He will never be a 5 tool guy but should come back some what this year

Probably Hudson Valley is right. I thought they would come up at the same level every year but Vettleson is probably going to BG or Charlotte.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Beltran is probably the best choice for the Rays

He may have knee problems and everything but at the same time, I think it’s well worth the risk. I don’t see Beltran being another Pat Burrell. It’s the injuries I’d be worried about the most.

by Roy J on Dec 22, 2011 11:21 AM EST reply actions  

What if we had a choice?

Would you take Beltran and Kotchman or Damon and Pena?

I love that Beltran is a switch hitter but he does leave us with 0 bucks for 1B.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd take...

Beltran and Kotchman

Although there’s a chance Kotchman will regress, I also think he won’t be the .217 hitter he was in Seattle. I think that eye surgery really helped him. Not only that but he could hit for a little more power next year. Contrary to popular belief, I think Kotchman can still have some serious value to use next year.

by Roy J on Dec 22, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I love the idea in theory

You also have to take into account that the Rays are most likely going to make Rizzo experience Durham for a bit so we need a 1B either way.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Blah

Lots of potential especially in Miranda’s bat but he keeps failing when given a chance and the D’Backs gave him the chance to be their starter.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

thats when rizzo comes in.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 22, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

At that point in time, Rizzo shall arrive.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm trying to find any angle here

But maybe the Cards and this agent don’t get along? He did represent Pujols also…

Yes, I know, I’m just reaching now.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 11:27 AM EST reply actions  

We're also the only team that fits bill for Beltran...

…on everything not money related .

He’s going to have to play in the field with on a regular basis with the Cards and Red Sox, which also saps some of his value. Toronto’s turf is a nightmare and he’d be far from home and Cleveland has the same money issues we have and aren’t all that competitve. He and Joyce could split RF/DH.

by punkfan39126 on Dec 22, 2011 11:32 AM EST reply actions  

We may even out bid Cleveland

I don’t get Toronto, this is another one of those that feels “we’re gonna sign him cuz the Rays want him” type things, they got Thames and Snider fighting for LF, Bautista in RF and they seem to love E5 at DH. Cards are trying to sign an OF’er but Beltran? Really? Seems like a bit too much considering Craig will miss a month or less. Honestly, the Red Sox seem to only want pitching, I don’t think they really want Beltran that bad.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

You actually bring up a very good point...

From the Rays perspective at least. Joyce would be playing RF most of the time since there are more right handed pitchers than left handed. And Beltran could play RF against lefties. Not a bad situation right there.

by Roy J on Dec 22, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Zo would be happy with that

I think he liked being a super utility player in the past but now he just wants to stay at 1 position and that would sure make it seem that he’s the everyday 2B.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

At the same time though

Beltran might agree to strictly being a DH. Just all depends. But it can’t hurt to have options that’s for sure.

by Roy J on Dec 22, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Option might be a very key word in this whole thing

I think we will offer a team option for a 3rd year while Beltran wants it guaranteed or at least have it be a vesting option. The Cards and Jays might be offering that 3rd year which is why he’s “considering 2 and 3 year deals”

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Does he want to play the field?

As a Jays fan I wouldn’t mind signing Beltran but I just think he is a huge risk. Also, guys who are bad in the field usually still want to grab a glove. Hopefully Carlos knows he is better suited as a DH at this point in his career.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Dec 22, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Last I heard is he wants to be "at least a part time fielder"

Fits the whole spend time in RF thing.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Beltran

I hope it doesn’t happen. He’s too much of an injury risk at this point, given his age. The Rays don’t have the financial flexibility to tie up some $8M a year in a player whose average games played probable projects less than 120 a year.

The team needs offense, but there may be significant improvement without spending on a 35 year old DH with a bum knee. Longoria, Upton, and Sean Rodriguez could improve their stats. Desmond Jennings won’t have to wait until July or whenever it was.

Rays are generally conservative. I don’t see them taking this big a risk.

by Ian Moore on Dec 22, 2011 11:51 AM EST reply actions  

Generally, yes

Rafael Soriano. Bet you no one saw the Rays paying 7 million to a reliever, even if he was the closer.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Good point

Still, that was a one year deal, and a contract that could have been moved at the trade deadline. Beltran, if he’s injured, will be impossible to move.

by Ian Moore on Dec 22, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't see the Cards offering a 3 year deal

because I don’t know if Beltran can hold up playing defense that long.

by punkfan39126 on Dec 22, 2011 11:52 AM EST reply actions  

I hope they don't

Because if they wind up being all 2 year deals except for the Jays(still don’t see a spot for another OF’er, guys. Just stealing another FA from us) and if the Jays offer him a full time OF job, he wont be around for long anyway.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Boy, what did they do to him last year?
#RedSox players on Crawford via BobbyV: “We have to make sure that Carl feels at home this year” #Rays

Whatever it was, he deserved worse. Boston? really Carl?

Focus on Beltran. Focus on Beltran….

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 12:02 PM EST reply actions  

Is Thole any good?

I think the Mets are going with Rob Johnson and then backing up with either Luis Martinez or Michael Last Name. I mean, is he better than Lobaton?

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 12:35 PM EST reply actions  

no

I’m on board with OBP is Life, but I don’t think he can hit at the MLB level.

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 22, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, I didn't see this before I posted below.

I guess the question is, do the Mets think he can be a starter.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Thole sucks.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Really?

I’ve heard nothing bad about him, apparently he has a real nice 2-strike approach and can shorten up when he needs to. Him and Molina would be nice, imo.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

He can barely hit and runners ran all over him last season.

No power to speak of.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

.381 career minor-league SLG

or, put another way: 12 points less than Juan Pierre. Players like that almost never succeed in the majors even with a tremendous batting eye.

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 22, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow. Throw my idea out the window please.

Davis for Duda is my new hope.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Speculation:

Any way we grab Duda and Thole from the Mets? I was trying to think of what it would take, maybe Davis, Fuld, and Chrinos? That would be such a great trade for us, but should the Mets do that?

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 12:57 PM EST reply actions  

Rays should make a real nice offer for Ike Davis

What a Rays player he is. He wouldn’t need Durham, either.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Why would anyone want to trade for Thole?

We have crappy, nonhitting catchers under team control already.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Main piece would obviously be Duda.
Any way we grab Duda and Thole from the Mets?

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Right.

Why would anyone want to trade for Thole?
We have crappy, nonhitting catchers under team control already.

I’m down with Duda, although I’d much prefer Ike Davis.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh I agree, I'd much rather have Ike.

but it would probably cost a bit more, so I’d love that trade for us.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Davis, Fuld and Colome for Ike

Eh, Mets are dumb but probably wouldn’t do it.

Then again, they do need someone who can actually pitch.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

They've already said they wouldn't trade Ike.

Hopefully making Duda more available. There probably isn’t a way the Mets take Niemann for Duda.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

dumb dumb DUMB

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 23, 2011 1:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Hope this doesn't mean the Beltran dream is already over.
Jon Paul Morosi of FOXSports.com reports that Seth Smith is drawing trade interest from the Mariners, Athletics, Braves, Mets, and Rays.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 1:05 PM EST reply actions  

Another guy who can't hit lefties.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

If our interest is real, we must really not want Damon back

I mean, Seth Smith? Try to win in the playoffs, not just make the playoffs, Rays!

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

That would only work if we were somehow the top bidder

Or if he is dying to be a Ray.

Being the highest bidder is definatley not true. I hope he wants to be a Ray but he’s not going to feel desperate to sign with us ASAP.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Seth Smith is Matt Joyce 2 yrs older

Have to consider with the loss of Damon and Kotchman, the lineup is actually rather right-handed these days

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 22, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

*in Coors

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 23, 2011 1:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Meh.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

What about Shelley Duncan?

Not a sexy name but he hit 11 HR’s in 247 PA’s. I would love if we could somehow get him to go along with a younger, lefty 1B. Lucas Duda? Sign Beltran, acquire Duda, Thole, and Duncan. That is an awesome team.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:11 PM EST reply actions  

Frankenstein's monster can be a hit or a miss.

The K rate is under control in some seasons, but in 2010, it was real bad. If he’s really cheap, I’d be willing to take a chance. Probably not a ton of difference realistically (not upside-wise) between him and Blanks in the near future.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Have you seen Duncan?

More like Mary Shelley’s Duncan.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

However, in very small sample sizes, Duncan's not a very good fielding 1b.

OF UZR is much better, but I only looked at UZR.

And the sample size is way too small.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Right.

At least he wouldn’t be the starter, he could go with a lefty 1B who has trouble hitting lefties. We could probably tolerate that.

I AM THE MONSTER - The big SCARY monsta

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 22, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

But we already have Canzler, too.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I do remember that one game where Duncan was basically all the web gems

3 or 4 Fuld-like catches in one game. In general, he looks a little awkward at everything. I’m sure Blanks does also.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

...
The Cardinals intensified their talks with Beltran last night and into this morning, Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch writes.

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Dec 22, 2011 1:37 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, they did that with Pujols also

Then that turned out to not be true. I’m waiting for the mystery team to sign him.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

...
The A’s are moving closer to a Gio Gonzalez trade, according to ESPN.com’s Buster Olney (Twitter links). The bidding is down to two teams, one of which is the Nationals. The Marlins and Red Sox may also be involved, but the Rangers are not.

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Dec 22, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Would you do this trade?

Rizzo and Bartlett + cash for Wade and S-Rod

by Ben Tumbling on Dec 22, 2011 2:28 PM EST reply actions  

It hurts to lose Rodriguez, but yeah, probably

Rays need a 1b, and something’s got to give.

Not interested in Bartlett, though, and the Padres probably aren’t throwing money into any deal, especially one in which they lose Rizzo.

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

Davis should get Rizzo and there is no way I would trade S-rod for Bartlett.

by mr. maniac on Dec 22, 2011 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, I'm just hoping for a Carlos right now

Would prefer Beltran but Pena would be a nice power upgrade for 1B

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 2:33 PM EST reply actions  

Red Sox out of Beltran chase

I never believed they were in. I would feel a lot happier if all the sudden the Cards and Jays were out of the running.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 2:48 PM EST reply actions  

Seems we're out on the Beltran chase as well...

Cards, Jays and Indians.

Another awesome player down the drain.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 3:02 PM EST reply actions  

I hope AF remembers that the Rays were next to last in attendence last season.

And having a winning team doesn’t equate to fans pouring through the turnstiles. Great pitching has not shown to interest fans at the gate. At some point, you may need to think about giving the fans a reason to come to the Trop…like an exciting offense that will score runs consistently and not put those who show up to sleep.

Perhaps the tag line should be ’Build it…an offense…and they will come!"

by budman3 on Dec 22, 2011 3:11 PM EST reply actions  

Or

Seems to me literally everyone in the area who loves pitching and defense follows the Rays.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Dec 22, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Looks like Rosenthal found my pipe
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Sources: #RedSox trying to get G. Gonzalez, Bailey in “monster” deal. #Rangers, #Rays also on Bailey. #Nationals team to beat on Gio. #MLB

All rumors are evil.

Under construction

by joeybw on Dec 22, 2011 3:42 PM EST reply actions  

why the hell are the rays in on bailey?

Am I the only one flagging this guy? 
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 22, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Can't see anything you wrote, just a blank message.

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Dec 22, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

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